Grecian 2000 (and 15)
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One or two female friends of mine who are around the same age as me are feeling rather…erm…let’s just say, queasy at the moment; they can’t get a good night’s sleep; they can’t maintain their concentration on a book or a movie or a TV programme; they’re prone to bursting into tears without provocation; they find fault with relationships that are rock solid. They’re sensing a change, or to put it another way, The Change. Sorry, fellers – we’re talking ‘Women’s Troubles’.
Getting used to Arsenal having a monthly home fixture for a good thirty years can be problematic at times; such games tend to be intensely ferocious affairs and the yearning for the season to draw to a close is understandable. But, as turbulent as this fixture can be, the permanent resident of the venue eventually – if reluctantly – accepts it is part of the sporting calendar and endures the event. If that were the permanent resident’s sole concern, it would be bad enough; what comes when the ref finally blows his whistle, however, seems infinitely more terrifying than the moment when the players stride out of the tunnel and onto the pitch for the inaugural game.
Yes, using football metaphors is mildly amusing and less likely to cause male readers to cough, blush and nip to the loo for ten minutes; but it’s hard to discuss such a delicate subject in a mouthed Les Dawson fashion when it’s written down. Let’s just say women’s biological headaches – and we’re not even mentioning pregnancy – have a tendency to make potbellies and bald patches seem a tad trivial by comparison. Whereas ageing for men is primarily an external process, women also have to deal with an internal one. Mother Nature can be a bit of a bitch sometimes. To me, many women reach their apex of beauty in their forties and fifties, when the bland, blank canvas and puppy-fat profile of over-praised, over-pampered and over-indulged youth matures into an entirely adult sensuality that radiates something uniquely exquisite and defiantly grownup to the beholder; intellectually, too, the superficial fascinations that preoccupy teens and twenties are superseded by a worldly wisdom and an accumulated back-story that has something to say. Which makes it all the more unfair that the internal woman is confronted by a fresh trauma at the very moment she can be at her most visually beguiling.
If she refuses to conform to the stereotype and steels herself for riding through the storm with a determination not to be browbeaten by it, she has to face a barrage of labels that mock her efforts, the most hideous of which is ‘Cougar’. What a horrible word – one that instantly evokes the image of a middle-aged woman posing as a girl twenty-five years her junior: too much makeup, too much time on the sun-bed, too high a heel, too short a skirt – a desperate, man-eating menopausal monster prowling the tackiest nightclubs of the land in search of young flesh to feed on, Countess Dracula as played by Coronation Street’s Liz MacDonald. The mixed messages that women who reach a certain age receive are confusing, to say the least; she doesn’t want to suddenly become an overnight ‘frump’ or premature ‘nana’, yet if she keeps her hair long, perhaps tries to iron out one or two facial wrinkles and avoids anything beige, she risks being mocked as mutton-dressed-as-lamb, a boiler or a brass.
A female friend of mine recently began a relationship with a man sixteen years her junior; to see them together you would never know the age gap between them was so great. He looks a little older than he actually is and she could easily be mistaken for being a good decade younger. She was even asked for ID when buying some cigarettes a couple of weeks ago. It’s nowhere near as blatantly obvious as it can often be when a man gets together with a woman sixteen years his junior – when he’s a greying or balding bloater trading in the old model for a new one, one easily and embarrassingly mistaken for his daughter. Yet the paranoia my friend is prone to simply because the perception of a woman in her early forties involved with a man in his late twenties is so fixed as something vaguely seedy in the popular imagination is a ridiculous situation for her to have to endure. She really has nothing to worry about, even if the entertainment world has a habit of normalising the sight of an older man with a younger woman and shrinks from portraying the reverse.
Hollywood actresses often claim they become invisible once they pass forty or fifty, which is why the Beverly Hills cosmetic surgeons do such a roaring trade, and why the only lined female faces seen on the big screen always seem to emanate from these shores, whether it’s Judi Dench, Helen Mirren, Vanessa Redgrave or Imelda Staunton. British actresses get so much work in the US because so few American actresses can play the parts of women who look their actual age; many bear too close a resemblance to their own waxworks to convince as non-glamorous, ‘ordinary’ female characters. Sure, Botox has changed that to a small degree over here, but like many developments within culture – both good and bad – America tends to be a decade ahead of Britain. I recently saw a clip of Doris Day from a 1960s TV show and it was refreshing to see her wrinkles in the close-ups, something it would be impossible to imagine today – unless the softest of soft-focus lenses were utilised. Personally, I love a face that reads like a well-thumbed novel and any kind of vanity surgery is anathema to me; but I don’t work in a business that places so much importance on looks, and a specific kind of look.
The pressures are perhaps less intense on those women who graduated from the hippy generation, whose female members rejected the false eyelashes, big hair and doll-like appearance of Swinging London in favour of a more natural look – little in the way of makeup and hair flowing free from a reliance on chemical products. Many have largely maintained the look and still look great as a consequence. They never aspired to resemble little girls raiding the dressing-up box when they were young women and have no need to live up to that now they are grandmothers. Yet the so-called WAG image that has become the visual blueprint for girls today is a hi-tech take on the dolly bird of Carnaby Street, and it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that twenty or thirty years from now, the perma-tanned glamazons on stiletto stilts that stagger around city centres today will be engaged in a losing battle to locate the lost fountain of youth. If youth remains as ludicrously prized as it is now, this is inevitable.
From Stewart Grainger to George Clooney, a grey-haired man is perceived as being in possession of a dignified sexiness; should a woman opt out of cutting and colouring her hair once it begins to be infiltrated by silver strands the most complimentary comment winging her way is that she could pass for a witch. It’s a tricky juggling act as to which direction she takes while her body is simultaneously creeping towards physical senility without asking her permission. This juggling act would be less stressful were she not bombarded by images either of the woman desperately trying to pass for her daughter’s sister or the woman who already looks like she has a dozen grandchildren. And how curiously perverse is it at a time when the traditional male fantasy of lusting after the pupils of St Trinian’s is deemed as dangerously paedophilic that an older woman is bullied into looking as young as possible and a younger woman is encouraged to don the toddler’s Onesie? Maybe I’m not typical, but I’d rather have Sarah Miles over Miley Cyrus any day.
Petunia Winegum
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January 7, 2015 at 10:04 am -
My preference is for natural beauty – the “hippy look” I guess – but then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I’m told. Some of the problems women face when it comes to self image stem from the word of entertainment and celebrity. Photographs of modern “sex symbols” are highly enhanced using computer technology. Many of these glamour pusses look quite “ordinary” without their false hair extensions, false eyelashes, false finger nails, layers of dangerous cosmetics and artificial breast implants or padded brassieres – and please don’t get me started on the piercings and tattoos.
I suppose looks are mainly connected with vanity, feeling attractive and ultimately trying to attract a mate, but when you consider some couples it becomes blatantly obvious that physical appearance isn’t really that important after all – I sometimes suspect that strong alcohol plays a pivotal role. -
January 7, 2015 at 10:25 am -
Jordan seemed to be promoted as the feminist icon for the 1990’s. Sassy and doin’ it her way. The NUTS look, perhaps all inspired by The Spice Girls and Girl Power.
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January 7, 2015 at 10:34 am -
Just one moor thing… The Menopausal woman was once highly-attractive because of course she couldn’t get pregnant.
I imagine that socio-sexual dynamic perhaps reached it’s public apogee in “The Graduate”, just as the Pill rendered her out of date.
Like Joni Mitchell sang, You don’t know what you got till it’s gone.-
January 16, 2015 at 11:56 pm -
I find this extremely to believe. Maybe to the desperate.
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January 7, 2015 at 10:36 am -
To me, many women reach their apex of beauty in their forties and fifties…. something uniquely exquisite and defiantly grownup… a worldly wisdom and an accumulated back-story that has something to say.
Bless you, Petunia, you have made my day!
I once heard Germaine Greer speak on the subject; her excellent suggestion was that it might all be far easier if it were regarded as a positive change and treated as a cause for celebration by family and friends marking one’s new-found status as ‘crone’ or wise woman – this is, perhaps, why your former hippy types seem to weather the transition best. It seems an excellent example to follow so, since the first grey hairs started to appear, I have taken up beekeeping, eschewed hairdressers completely and started stockpiling home-brewed ale and cider for a massive party.
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January 7, 2015 at 10:50 am -
Oooh, could we extend that to ‘sixties’ and make my day too?
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January 7, 2015 at 11:14 am -
Sure, forties, fifties, sixties, seventies – just look at Charlotte Rampling; she’s as beautiful now as she ever was.
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January 7, 2015 at 3:08 pm -
Some of us still dream of rampling with Charlotte…..
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January 7, 2015 at 10:45 am -
A dyed in the wool bloke, I’ve found that as I age, so (mostly) do the women I find attractive, which I suppose equates to those whose company I enjoy most. It’s not the most beautiful, pretty, whatever, it’s just something about them. Were Grannies like today’s when we were children? I don’t think so.
Maybe I’m just growing up?
It does seem to me that women get a pretty rough deal biologically, but not much anyone can do about it except behave with empathy & respect when necessary. Probably would have been helpful to know that at a much younger time of life. -
January 7, 2015 at 10:55 am -
Jordan – the whore of whores.
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January 7, 2015 at 11:17 am -
As if to prove a point…
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January 7, 2015 at 11:02 am -
“… Many have largely maintained the look and still look great as a consequence…”
Speaking as a male who turned 65 today, might I just say that never has a truer statement been published.
When youngsters comment (not always unkindly) on my wrinkly gnarled appearance and white hair (generally a little longer than is now fashionable) I tell them that I’ve earned every wrinkle, and that I have had the experiences which produced the same, adding that I hope their lives are as interesting as mine has been so far.I must confess to having been teasingly unkind to my son, as when he first asked “When did your hair go grey?”, I replied “0445 on the 18th February, 1986″.
A moment or two later, the penny dropped that I had stated the precise moment of his arrival.
Little bugger made me buy him a pint as compensation for emotional harshness..
With a huge grin on his face, of course…
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January 7, 2015 at 1:52 pm -
Happy birthday! A well-timed post, it would appear.
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January 7, 2015 at 6:09 pm -
Well-timed indeed. Thank you for your wishes, Petunia.
Returning to the main topic, last night Best Beloved & I watched the DVD of “Saving Mr Banks”: Emma Thompson (as P. L. Travers) looked better than ever – almost hints of Diana Rigg in her appearance.
Not to mention the general wit and easy conversation found in older ladies (by older, I mean generally post-25 or post-30), and I really cannot see the appeal of a late-teens/early-twenties companion – and haven’t for quite some time.
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January 7, 2015 at 11:29 am -
The menopause was never better named. Wrinkles, sags, grey hair. Terrible mood changes, sudden tears, dryness where once all was juicy, as our outspoken female gynae/obstetric boss used to intone with a leer. Even split skin in the nose. Last but not least those hot flushes, thought so funny by those who do not suffer. All this litany of annoyances can go on for years. Strange that the young plaster their lovely skin with layers of thick makeup. Currently contort their eyebrows into strange shapes and places, so they looked permanently shocked at the world the young now inhabit. They are so gorgeous and vital, but choose to have tattoos and weird hair/skin colouring that can be downright life threatening, if allergic to an ingredient. Very strange that when periods start ever earlier, we are so hung up that young girls are/were attracted to older men of fame and money, dare I say notoriety; we are dragooned to be shocked to the core that a man might want to make a pass at such girl firing on a new supply of oestrogen driven cylinders. It is entirely his fault to wish to touch her. For that he is disgraced forever. It is OK for girls to sport with a pimply, penniless, hoarse voiced, idiotic youth, only educated by internet porn. Hence the shaving and anus bleaching that now goes on!! Porn has no effect…..my arse………… is probably bleached anyway.
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January 7, 2015 at 11:33 am -
Maude the paedophile…
http://youtu.be/5mz3TkxJhPc
Advance movie trailer for the 1971 cult classic “Harold and Maude” …
A suicidal young man gets a new lease on life when he falls for an 80-year-old woman.-
January 7, 2015 at 12:45 pm -
“But I love you Maude!”
“That’s very nice, dear. Now go and love someone else.”One of the best bits of dialogue EVER written.
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January 7, 2015 at 1:49 pm
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January 7, 2015 at 2:58 pm -
‘Anus bleaching’? You are pulling our leg?
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January 7, 2015 at 3:36 pm -
Oh dear…someone *has* led a sheltered life http://tinyurl.com/na9zbuy
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January 7, 2015 at 3:42 pm -
I believe I heard that Sacha Baron-Cohen bleached his anus for his role as Bruno in one of his films. Of course these days no one can afford a haircut, so stylists are always trying to promote trendy new must-have beauty treatments for the affluent.
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January 7, 2015 at 3:53 pm -
Or the effluent.
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January 7, 2015 at 6:16 pm -
Or alternatively, for a recent popular culture reference…
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January 7, 2015 at 10:30 pm -
Indeed when I am being schooled by a commenter from the backwoods of Norfolk, I do believe I have lived a sheltered life.
The next question is who would?…………..no, I don’t necessarily want to know, some-one will likely tell me Jeeves, and even P G Wodehouse fertile imagination did not extend that far..
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January 7, 2015 at 11:20 pm -
Earliest reference I can recall to this ‘really don’t want to think about’ practice was in one of Ben Elton’s books, so a few years back now.
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January 8, 2015 at 12:54 am -
” some-one will likely tell me”
Well it won’t be me cos I am also somewhat at loss as to the appeal of smearing caustic chemicals on the most tender parts of one’s body. Reaches the parts Izal didn’t, I suppose.
I believe that the practice started among Porn stars but why they would is again beyond me..maybe it’s an “F-stop” thing?
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January 7, 2015 at 11:47 am -
I have found that most of the women that I found attractive when I was a young man I still find attractive today, even those who were already some years older than me. A relative few have been unkindly treated by time and no longer seem so attractive but these are all women that I do not know personally, people that I only see in images. Those that I know remain attractive irrespective of any change to their looks. A further few, again women that I do not know, have managed to make themselves less attractive to my eye through surgical intervention which doesn’t seem to be a positive thing in the long run, especially if repeated. As to the canard about men getting more attractive as they get older… I think that only really applies to a small minority. Certainly it is a long time since anyone showed any signs of being even slightly impressed by my physical appearance.
I am always saddened when I read comments bemoaning the tyranny of the expectations of others, especially in relation to behaviour or appearance. Freedom from that tyranny, as with others, won’t be ceded so it must be seized. The currently popular approach of trying to outlaw these petty tyrannies through censorship is misconceived, ineffective and, being intrinsically illiberal, just adds further layers of tyranny to our lives. I freed myself from the tyranny of fashion at about the age of 19 when I saw it for what it was and have continued to free myself from such control mechanisms ever since. There is a price to be paid, always, for doing so but my attitude is that one should pay it or knuckle under; either way, one should stop moaning.
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January 7, 2015 at 3:29 pm -
I have found that most of the women that I found attractive when I was a young man I still find attractive today, even those who were already some years older than me.
Blimey! And you will now find that the ones who thought they were too good for you when they were in their salad days are coming crawling on their hands and knees.
Personally I have seen women go from collagenous colleen to edentulous crone in the space of fifteen years, and from maid to matron in a few years of intensive breeding and force-feeding on fish, chips, Cheddar, and cheap ale.
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January 7, 2015 at 12:10 pm -
Soomer of 42 was a big hit back in the day, although being American the underage youth was 17. Based on a true story, which was later excavated and it turned out the older woman had been beating herself up for years about the brief affaire, whilst the abused youth (who was the writer of the screeenplay) had held it to his heart as a beautiful episode in his life.
http://youtu.be/l_86PDoqvoI-
January 7, 2015 at 1:51 pm -
Reminds me of that Bobby Goldsboro song, ‘Summer (The First Time)’.
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January 7, 2015 at 4:00 pm -
Ah, yes, the romantic music of Michel Legrand. I remember it well from that era. Les Parapluies de Cherbourg, Windmills of Your Mind, What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life, The Young Girls Of Rochefort, Yentl, the film music for The Go Between, and other hits.
They don’t make ‘em like that any more.
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January 7, 2015 at 4:53 pm -
That was the song that inspired me to find out what exactly was a “julep”… and since tasting once, have never looked back,,,, still hard to come by even in the trendy cocktail bars of London (not that I can afford to go looking very often).
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January 7, 2015 at 12:24 pm -
An interesting essay for this blog within the context of this blogs fame for examination of the Jimmy Savile/ Paedophilia debacle. To be blunt I am completely at a loss in understanding the attraction to someone much younger or older than oneself but then I have similar difficulties in respect of homosexual relationships…..neither in a manner of speaking are my bag and I am not really interested in understanding why they might be someone else’s particular bag…..but for all my lack of understanding I know of one marriage which started 30 years ago when a 40 year old man took up with a 14 year old girl (and her Father had him criminally prosecuted) and that marriage appears to me to be one of the most solid and happy marriages I know of, with the mutually devoted parties one now over 70 and the other now over40 with two accomplished and exceptionally well adjusted children. It above my pay grade to suggest appropriate legislation in matters such as these but perhaps at the heart of the matter is whether any relationship is exploitative and that probably has nothing to do with age or the gender of the parties but is I suspect relevant as to whether the parties to a relationship are likely to be happy together.. If one party sees the other as no more than self serving arm candy whatever their age then it probably doesn’t bode well for either whatever their respective ages or age differences…..but hell I do like to see people happy together.
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January 7, 2015 at 1:09 pm -
There is of course nothing to stop a fifty year-old man having a 14 year-old girl as his girl-friend so long as he does not have any physical contact that under the 2003 New Labour Sex Laws constitutes inappropriate sexual contact. It might be a moot point as to who would in due course find this an unsatisfactory arrangement – the man or the girl…
I think that this platonic sort of build-up (Tantric perhaps!) was claimed to be in place by Bill Wyman back in the 1980’s when he discussed his relationship with his “wild-child” eventually wife, on the Parkinson show. French- kissing was probably legal back then however, and indeed perhaps other French pursuits were, that no traditional Britisher would have considered decent at any age in 1980…
Of course any man conducting such a relationship in 2015 would be unable to defend himself against later charges of Grooming I imagine, should everything go horribly wrong and the girl become a bit catty. If he was conducting it with a boy of course, it would be interesting to imagine the tabloid reaction.
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January 7, 2015 at 3:17 pm -
The relationship to which I referred was never strictly platonic from the start hence the successful criminal prosecution of the man but perhaps my point was that for all there was physical consummation of their mutual attraction contrary to the criminal law, the mutual attraction most likely had other elements beyond the mere physical (and tritely explained) desire for young flesh/older man though in many perhaps most cases in may be explained as such……but my using of the example was to try to develop Uncle Petunia’s point (per incuriam) that genuine lasting attraction to another is perhaps not about a person as a physical addition in the sense of adding to ones identity to the outside world (the person wanting the view of him as ‘look he has got another young good looking girl on his arm’) but rather something different evidenced by Uncle Petunia’s fulsome praise of the woman whose beauty and attractiveness is enhanced with the increase of age. I have little doubt my 70 year old chum views his 40 year old wife with greater desire (passion the better word perhaps) now than when he first set eyes upon her when she was 14 and he was 40.
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January 7, 2015 at 3:17 pm -
To be blunt I am completely at a loss in understanding the attraction to someone much younger or older than oneself but then I have similar difficulties in respect of homosexual relationships…
I agree completely with regard to homosexual relationships. The whole thing seems embarrassing and juvenile to me and best not even thought about. However I am 63 and my wife is 27 and the children are 2 and 6 and we could not be happier.
I agree with your other comments. An ancient writer in an antique tongue once expressed this pithily in the following epithet.
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
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January 7, 2015 at 4:55 pm -
Are you asking to have explained the attractions of same sex relationships? I can happily oblige, without being condescending or offensive.
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January 7, 2015 at 5:30 pm -
No, but presumably gay people find heterosexual attraction equally unfathomable from a personal point of view. To me personally homosexuality reminds me of twelve year old boys showing off their erections in the changing rooms circa 1963 and of early adolescent experimentation in the absence of available females, so it reminds me of immaturity. Obviously it may be quite different for people who have had quite different life experiences.
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January 7, 2015 at 6:48 pm -
Hmmm.. maybe you DO need an explanation. It’s not the physicality (though that’s there, obviously) – it’s the psychology.
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January 7, 2015 at 7:27 pm -
“but presumably gay people find heterosexual attraction equally unfathomable from a personal point of view”
IME the majority of homosexuals are aware of , are even comfortable with, their own heterosexual feelings and there a very few whose sexuality/sexual preference is 100 %- just as most, if not all, heterosexuals have some homosexual tendencies/feelings at some point in their lives. So I would think it would only be the ‘classic’ gay (the ‘women are dirty and diseased’ type) who would find heterosexual attraction a mystery. Is my own preference for my gender? No. But I can recall having feelings for certain men at times and can find homosexual attraction perfectly fathomable….there was this one dusky skinned boy dancing, on the roof of a bus shelter, to the ‘music’ of the Parisian Gay Pride march…I could have devoured him, and my girlfriend who was with me at the time felt the same way. So that teenage parisian poofter managed to tick both boxes (it was probably a Pied Noir thing).
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January 8, 2015 at 4:02 pm -
* To me personally homosexuality reminds me of twelve year old boys showing off their erections in the changing rooms circa 1963 *
WHAAAT!!…. Jonathan Mason!!…..
….. I can recall copping a look at one or two lads in the showers once, just to try and compare dimensions, when it began to dawn on me that there was some kind of arms race I was inevitably going to be involved in whether I liked it or not, but dimensions of the first kind only… …. Surely “comparing erections” is the sort of thing that would only occur in a Ken Russell movie…… -
January 8, 2015 at 4:48 pm -
” was some kind of arms race”
Excellent description! Personally , having a 44″ waist at age 13 and not being be able to see my own warhead…I chose the détente of The Sick Note.
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January 7, 2015 at 6:06 pm -
Congratulations Jonathan Mason…..not because you have a young wife but because you have a wife with whom you are obviously happy ….just coz I have personal prejudices in relation to I see how I should best live my life should most certainly not mean anything more than that ….it is no more than a personal perception applicable to me. The example I used was expressed to be a per incuriam argument that my personal opinion mattered not one jot and proved absolutely nothing when set in contrast to my chum with a young wife such as you have and his and his younger wife’s enduring happiness. I tend to rejoice in people’s happiness perhaps because I like to think I have some knowledge of happiness myself. I doubt though that exploitation of others for self is a method or outcome to achieve happiness
And Windsock just coz I can’t understand something and really have no wish to know about it is of exactly the same importance.
The main point I wanted to make was really that happiness for an individual might lie less in notions of self (look at me and what I have) but in the self transcendental (look at my wife who is a great person in her own right irrespective of the fact she is married to me).
Pace to all feminists if I have expressed the notion in terms of Husband/Wife for I would set up the same contention(s) equally in reverse but I adopt the cultural conventions with which I am most at ease intending no offence and perhaps windsock I would even do so in terms of same sex couples if I thought it was somehow my business to take a view on them-
January 7, 2015 at 6:24 pm -
I tend to rejoice in people’s happiness
To which I should urgently add ……and not question it -
January 7, 2015 at 6:51 pm -
Steve: Your first comment mentioned “difficulties” in “understanding” same sex relationships. By the logic of your comment above, why can’t you take happiness in seeing two people of the same sex in love with each other, even if it is “none of your business to take a view on them”? Happiness is where you find it (I can’t believe I’m paraphrasing Madonna.)
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January 7, 2015 at 7:29 pm -
@ windsock I am sorry if I expressed myself poorly although forgive me if I opine you may appear to be wishing to see criticism where there is none to be found. If you are then I suggest you might be doing such cause as you may wish to promote something of a dis service . My opinion was that I personally had difficulties in seeing certain attractions (I freely fess up that in some senses I may not be a million miles in certain respects from Jonathan Mason in MY perception of same sex relationships but thankfully since same sex relationships don’t touch my life or my life touch theirs I don’t really need to go into the issue further and I would decline any invitation from you to debate qualitative judgements on same sex relationships despite that you might be seen to be wishing to so do) Implicit in my specific contentions was that I don’t dismiss that happiness might be found in a same sex relationship just that I can’t understand it and neither do I wish to be educated as to them. My argument was meant to be that it is quite right and proper to have certain personal prejudices but quite wrong to inflict them on others ….perhaps you might consider that you might be seen as wishing to inflict yours on Jonathan Mason and myself
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January 7, 2015 at 7:35 pm -
Not really – just offering a personal viewpoint from someone who has tasted the fruit of different trees. Not taking offence, or trying to provoke any.
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January 7, 2015 at 10:06 pm -
Chacun a son gout …though I doubt you will resist (should resist perhaps?) rising to the bait I offer that tastes are by no means of equal value..
Your post should read ‘nor’ trying rather than ‘or’ trying….. but correct grammar like correct behaviour is less a matter of personal choice but playing by rules that have been established for good reason.-
January 8, 2015 at 7:12 am -
Passive aggressive comments… ooh, they’re tricky, aren’t they?
“I doubt you will resist”
“should resist perhaps?”
“but correct grammar like correct behaviour is less a matter of personal choice but playing by rules that have been established for good reason.”
Such fine examples of refined distaste. Although, just to let you in on a secret, sexual attraction is not just about “taste”, but about drive, desire, psychology, genetics and environment – and attraction, all rolled up into one ball called humanity.
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January 8, 2015 at 10:00 am -
Thank you for the lecture which I correctly anticipated you would not be able to resist giving me ….there was no need for me to be passive aggressive (though of course I derived pleasure in so setting you up) I tend to try to resist the temptation to justify myself by invective but that is my personal taste and tend not to tell people what objective sexual desire (or any of the mysteries of life) might be about since that smacks of arrogance.
If I might observe what you state as the drivers of attraction omits any mention of reason and permits me to set up a critique of opinion ….a classical analysis of the relationship between reason and emotion in man is that it is akin to a horseman with the horse playing the part of emotion, the rider that of reason and the bridle individual will …..your comment indicates emotion as the rider and reason the horse. I am not sure bending reason to emotion doesn’t lead to justification rather than something intellectually more solid and satisfying …..if one likes a more real (less personal) version of reality
You are mistaken about refined distaste (though thanks for the compliment …..certainly if I have acquired such an attribute it can only have been through determined hard work on my part) actually its reasoned indifference to something that simply does not interest because I personally see it as a blind alley……read those final words again noting the word personally …..which of course does not infer that others such as yourself might find it fruitful but I decline to be lectured in silence that I should look on what I consider to be a blind alley as a path to wisdom or personal happiness .
You may take this final remark as patronising but I assure you its not. I genuinely admire the obvious emotion you have on the point you pursue ….it appears both pure and authentic …..and from one perspective counts for rather more than such sophistry that I might be able to muster to counter it…..but I stand by my critique nevertheless. -
January 8, 2015 at 10:30 am -
“but I decline to be lectured in silence”
Me too.
“actually its reasoned indifference to something that simply does not interest because I personally see it as a blind alley”
If you are so “indifferent”, why do you mention it at all in your first comment in this particular discussion?
As for “setting me up”… what is that BUT passive aggressive…. I’ll provoke you with a comment but defy you to answer it? And it wasn’t a lecture – I could have included more, but decided to keep it short in the interests of being concise.
A question: is everyone you love about “reason”?
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January 8, 2015 at 11:51 am -
windsock January 8, 2015 at 10:30 am
“but I decline to be lectured in silence”
Me too.
“actually its reasoned indifference to something that simply does not interest because I personally see it as a blind alley”
If you are so “indifferent”, why do you mention it at all in your first comment in this particular discussion?
As for “setting me up”… what is that BUT passive aggressive…. I’ll provoke you with a comment but defy you to answer it? And it wasn’t a lecture – I could have included more, but decided to keep it short in the interests of being concise.
A question: is everyone you love about “reason”?
Reply
You appear to have comprehensively misconstrued my argument
1. I was unaware that I was lecturing anyone about objective values though forgive me that you appear to wish to so do. I did pass a personal opinion but that was to set up a per incuriam argument.
2 And no you pompous fat head who is arrogant enough to lecture me (or anyone else) what my personal (or anyone’s personal ) notions about love should be in your anxiety to get your personal prejudices across.
3.I have never contended reason alone is the measurement to be used in such matters but it is a useful check on raw personal emotion which without the check of reason can be destructive however entertaining it might be for the individual .
4. Your blind emotion caused you to miss my admission about setting you up with what you term passive aggressive behaviour
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January 8, 2015 at 12:14 pm -
Well, we have reached the end of discourse: “pompous fat head”.
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January 8, 2015 at 12:45 pm -
Well, we have reached the end of discourse: “pompous fat head”.
Good Lord no windsock ….how about PRECIOUS pompous fat head …..c’mon fight for what you believe right ……if the landlady doesn’t like a punch up at the bar there always the pub car park where someone such as myself with refined distaste has been given and received many a bloody nose -
January 8, 2015 at 12:56 pm -
Well, that made me laugh so you can’t be all bad. Not the first time I’ve been called pompous either, but it seems we just don’t “get” each other on this particular subject and what’s the bloody point? I spend most of the time quoting you back to yourself and pointing out what I see as contradictory and unreasonable statements, and you respond in kind. It gets circular and even for someone who likes a heated debate, it also gets tedious, for us and bystanders. So, no punch up in the car park. I think I’ll fantasise about what you look like min your underwear instead.
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January 8, 2015 at 3:06 pm -
Windsock
Funnily enough my feelings are absolutely identical to yours but you are the better man for having the strength of character to state your position on what I came to see as probably mutual follies or mutual truths before I did.
Mind you if I had any time at all for evangelical prostheletisers (sp?) against homosexuality (hand on heart I don’t) I would lend a photo of myself in underpants to them as a sure fire method of achieving complete aversion therapy to those who were shown it.
Regards windsock and thanks for showing me how a better man should behave. -
January 8, 2015 at 3:17 pm -
Thank you for the compliments, and the debate – arguing the toss can sometimes help me clarify what it is that I really think sometimes.
Don’t worry – the fantasising was shortlived… I had cat litter to change.
And in the spirit of genuine education: proselytisers.
Best wishes.
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January 7, 2015 at 1:26 pm -
Ghost lines.
When I look into the face of an older woman I tend to see the ‘ghost lines’, to see what was there before. So her actual age is fairly immaterial to me. If you still don’t know what ‘ghost lines’ are then look into the face of a Downs Syndrome kid and you’ll see the child that SHOULD have been there-sorry if that is an unromantic explanation but that was the one the original author of the phrase (can’t remember who) came up with.
“Oooh, could we extend that to ‘sixties’ and make my day too?”-AR
Funnily enough I met up with an elderly lady in her late 60s yesterday for coffee, and whilst I was far more interested in her mind that her body I did notice a couple of middle aged gentlemen passing ‘checking her out’. The gentleman seated directly behind her and I though wasn’t checking her out though but I happen to know he’s my neighbour and gay.
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January 7, 2015 at 3:04 pm -
The gentleman seated directly behind her and I though wasn’t checking her out though but I happen to know he’s my neighbour and gay.
Bible says you should love your neighbour as yourself. No exceptions.
I am 63 and my wife is 27, but I have no desire to covet a woman of my own age and neither do the children. Still, it is comforting, based on several comments here, to think that she will be even more attractive when she reaches the age of 63, though it is unlikely to do me any good as I will probably be long departed at that point in proceedings and she will probably have a toyboy to keep her warm at night.
Meanwhile best to take one day at a time:
Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I’m sixty-four? [Lennon/McCartney]
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January 7, 2015 at 6:39 pm -
“Bible says you should love your neighbour as yourself. No exceptions.”
Indeed it does. Don’t say nothing nowhere about actually LIKING the grumpy old Sod though does it? (Did I actually get a fabled Triple Negative in there? Go me!).
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January 7, 2015 at 4:45 pm -
‘…elderly lady in her late ’60s…’
A bit harsh, I’m thinking.-
January 7, 2015 at 4:49 pm -
I daren’t write what I’m thinking….is dwarf tossing still legal?
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January 7, 2015 at 6:22 pm -
Priceless Anna
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January 7, 2015 at 6:27 pm -
“Priceless Anna”
Steve, you will never known how hard I am fighting with myself right now….*Must not lower the tone…MUST NOT LOWER THE TONE….think PANCAKES, Dwarf, think pancakes!*
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January 7, 2015 at 10:35 pm -
Blocked Dwarf
I hold you in the highest esteem …your passing (or I suspect much greater) acquaintance with one of the greatest cultures in the world would be sufficient for such an assertion but possession of a concinum and a knowledge of the joys of Turkish tobacco would make ‘mench’ even if your posts did not indicate you pass well beyond that threshold…. but let me fess up …….I am in awe of the woman with elegance of wit and use of language that exceeds my own. If she has the allure of good looks as well (young or old ….less young perhaps the better expression) as I have said before, I enjoy being outclassed and watching others be outclassed …..its a game of elegance that does not lack substance that is enhanced by cleverness of thought
La Belle Raccoone is something of an icon for me though for what I am not entirely sure but sense it might be of things of the highest value-
January 8, 2015 at 1:12 am -
@ FS, “but let me fess up ”
Some of us have to make use of our 5th Amendment Rights but what I will say is that I can fully understand why you feel the way you do about our landlady.
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January 8, 2015 at 10:07 am -
@Blocked Dwarf
One might always take care when a lawyer says he is fessing up since its only to things that he wants or is forced to admit to.
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January 7, 2015 at 6:09 pm -
Harsh? Not really because the antique and decrepit Old Biddy in question would, I’m sure, count herself lucky I didn’t describe her publically as a ‘librarian’ or ‘smelling slightly of cat wee’ . You see the crone in question, who happens to reads here on occasion , knows my personal, let’s say ‘psychological’ , circumstances and even commented upon them as we left the premises- shaking hands not ‘air kissing’. Hop a mile down the ayslum corridor in my Strait jacket matey…..
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January 7, 2015 at 3:29 pm -
As I have aged, I have simply found that the age-range of women whom I find attractive has broadened. In my teens, I wouldn’t ever consider a woman in her 30s or 40s that way, but the passage of time just keeps adding scale to the age-range in view. Only a few days ago, Mandy Rice-Davies died at the age of 69 and, although not at that age yet, I would admit to finding her later images still very attractive, a situation unimaginable when I was younger.
It is incumbent upon we males to acknowledge and accommodate the very different biological issues which our womenfolk have to negotiate through much of their lives, but also to value the outcome of those processes.
Overall, I conclude that an older woman is just a young woman with experience, and usually much the better for it – with or without any anal bleaching. -
January 7, 2015 at 4:06 pm -
My memories of older women, as perceived by a youngster in the 1960s, are mostly of ageing female relatives, from grandmothers to maiden aunts, and – dare I say it on a family blog – their often rather off-putting personal odours. Let us be grateful that standards have improved a lot from the days when the definition of a hygiene freak was someone who would say: “I take a bath once a week… whether I need it or not.”
Now in my sixties, I find mature women highly attractive, the more so if not surgically enhanced, and reflect on the wisdom of the old saw that youth is wasted on the young.
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January 7, 2015 at 4:12 pm -
Mandy Rice Davies was always a bit of a hottie and she aged well. Unfortunately the same could not be said for her comrade-in-arms Christine Keeler, the face that once burst a thousand zips ending up looking like an NHS smoking cessation poster girl.
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January 7, 2015 at 5:52 pm -
What I can never understand is, no matter how good you look after plastic surgery, how do you turn your mind back to match? I have a friend in her 60s who has spent thousands on every imaginable cosmetic surgery, she looks great but close up you can see she has had a lot of work done. When I split up with my first husband I was 28 but I always looked very young for my age and found myself dating 18 – 22 year olds, it was fun but I simply couldn’t think the way I did at 18 having been married with a child. I was happy when I met my second husband who was the same age and that lasted until his death 8 years ago. I don’t think I could put myself through all that elective surgery, it seems to become addictive as my friend started with one simple procedure and I lost count of all the others she has had to her face and body but it’s her choice and she is happy with it, I just couldn’t be bothered as I would still be the same age inside.
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January 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm -
Carol, presumably the thinking is that, thanks to your surgical make-over, you are so busy being swept off your feet and into bed that you don’t have time to ponder on the reality of old wine and new bottles.
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January 7, 2015 at 7:33 pm -
I’m of this group, 49 and have been facing this subject for a little over 2 years now, for me it’s a relief.
I’ve never been a girly girl and I found all the primping and preening a chore so I became a biker, then I got married and my husband was a possessive, paranoid man who didn’t like me wearing certain types of clothes.
The biggest issue for me was the grey hair started coming through when I was 40 yet my mum of 72 does not have a grey hair on her head.
I started dying my hair because I didn’t want to look old before my time, my husband objected and his paranoia increased 100 fold., causing me huge problems.
I left him after 25 years, now I live with a man who let’s me be who I want to be, if I want to wear ratty old jeans with ripped knees and a motorhead patch he’s not fussed, if I want to wear make up and a nice frock he’s not bothered and he couldn’t care less if I dye my hair he just wants me to be happy.
The hot flushes, night sweats and hormone imbalances are not the problem, for me it’s the fact that my hair has started falling out in hand fulls. I can understand why men fear hair loss because it knocks your self confidence for six.
All I know is I now have a man who loves me no matter what and cores not one jot if i’m tall short fat thin hairy or bald he doesn’t even mind the mood swings because he loves who I am inside and not what can”t be changed.
I will deal with this stage in my life as I have dealt with all the others, be who I am, keep going and hope I’m intact when I come out the other side.
I became a granny for the first time in 2014 and it’s miraculous, but I don’t really feel any different, age is a state of mind, and in my head I am still 30.
I have survived many things in my life with a smile on my face and I will survive this too. -
January 7, 2015 at 8:42 pm -
I’m a bit puzzled by the ‘home fixture every month for 30 years’ bit, which sounds to me like a late puberty, early menopause, or both, once the delightful euphemism is discarded. I’d have thought 40 to 45 years. To be only 30, even for Kath Gillon: if I take off the 2 years from 49, 30 more makes puberty at 17.
Sorry to be so picky. Nature deals a rotten hand to some folks.
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January 7, 2015 at 8:51 pm -
Your husband is a lucky man, Kath Gillon. Looking back from the age of 87, after 50 years of marriage and 10 as a widower, most of the women I have known have also been thoroughly nice people, kind, generous and sweet-natured for the most part, and very forgiving. The spectacle of the Black Friday sales and Saturday night drunkenness suggests that those characteristics may be less frequently seen in today’s generation.
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January 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm -
When I was younger I was keen for an older more experienced lady to take me under her wing and introduce me to the pleasures of life. When I got older I was keen to find a younger woman who I could take under my wing and introduce her to the pleasures of life. Neither happened but yet I muddled through trying to understand ladies.
Now I’m older still and most of the ladies I know are at that time in their life when things “change”. It hasn’t been easy and it causes slight issues at home and with colleagues. It could be that whilst we know that women want us to understand them, men don’t seem to get an opportunity to be understood.
One thing I have discovered is make the most of it when you have it and recognising what it is you have.
I’m going fo a lie down in a darkroom now…
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January 7, 2015 at 9:54 pm -
That triggered a distant memory, Tedious, which I’ll confess privately here amongst friends.
Aged 19, I was ‘seduced’ by a work colleague, an attractive married lady of 39 who had two daughters around my age. It was mind-altering. The physicals were such a surprise to me then, particularly that a woman of such ‘advanced age’ would even want any of it, especially so much of it and from a callow youth of 19, busting with fresh testosterone. I learnt so much from that ‘Mrs Robinson’ moment – I cherish the memory.
She then fixed me up to date one of her tasty daughters, so I guess I must have passed the approval test. On balance, I’d probably admit to preferring the mother, as she had none of the inhibitions of youth and an extra couple of decades of experience for my enlightenment.
I mused at the time whether having a woman more than twice my age was a once-in-a-lifetime experience – it was, it certainly can’t be repeated now.
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January 8, 2015 at 1:59 am -
I’ve found Mudplugger’s exerience to be similar to my own. In that as I age the span of women I see as beautiful expends with every passing year. As I rapidly approach 65 I am buoyed by the thought that by the time I fade into senility; at least half the population will potentially be pleasing on the eye.
Charb mort libre.
If God exists, he doesn’t kill over cartoons. (plagiarised from the net).
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January 8, 2015 at 5:42 pm -
Have you seen the documentary Advanced Style, Petunia? It’s out on DVD and there’s a book too, plus a blog http://advancedstyle.blogspot.com. I find how they look interesting as much for how it seems to reflect their attitude to life and ageing as for what they are actually wearing.
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January 8, 2015 at 10:07 am
….. I can recall copping a look at one or two lads in the showers once, just to try and compare dimensions, when it began to dawn on me that there was some kind of arms race I was inevitably going to be involved in whether I liked it or not, but dimensions of the first kind only… 
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