Defending the Indefensible?
Various posts and comments I have read over the past few days appear to argue that our police service is institutionally murderous, untrustworthy, and naturally racist.
The Tottenham family of Mark Duggan demand ‘justice’ to be done at last, a phrase which makes it sound as though the police regularly dispatch black youths ‘gangland style’ on a Saturday night. Not half as often as their friends do, is my response.
I am frequently reminded that ‘John Charles de Menezes was held down and shot in the head seven times’ as though this is evidence of the murderous inclinations rampant in our police force.
Yes, he was held down and shot in the head. By policemen who at the time had every reason to believe that he was a suicide bomber who had just entered a crowded tube station with a backpack of explosives.
I am fully aware that this belief turned out to be erroneous, but this was not the fault of the man who held him down, nor the man who shot him.
Let us just consider the case of the ‘murderous bastard’ who held him down.
Rail at the faults of the higher command behind him by all means, but let us at least give credit to a brave young man who, believing he had hold of a suicide bomber who might implode at any moment, failed to run off screaming for the nearest safe hidey hole, but kept hold of him, in the full belief that he was risking his life, even as another policeman was firing rounds into de Menezes
That takes courage and dedication to the cause of protecting the public. That doesn’t suddenly turn a decent young man into a ‘murderous bastard’.
What about the man who fired the bullets? Do you imagine that he does this for fun? If the truth was that he actually took pleasure in killing people then I imagine he may well have sought out a career that gave him more opportunity for satisfaction that the Metropolitan Police. Drug Dealer perhaps, or Club Bouncer in Los Angeles?
A suicide bomber that you believe about to implode and who is currently grappling with your colleague is not the time to hold an intense navel gazing exercise, it is a time to do whatever needs to be done.
Ask yourself the question – what would you have done in the same circumstances – you are armed and charged with protecting the general public, your colleague is grappling with a suicide bomber who may reach the detonator at any point. Would you be doing your duty if you said to yourself ‘Ah but there might have been a cock-up behind my back, I’ll take the chance that he doesn’t blow up this train, I won’t believe what I’ve been told, it might be wrong, I’ll wait for the inquiry…….’
Ian Tomlinson – Yes, the Met should not have put a young man with a notoriously short fuse and a history of violence into that unit. But they did. Yes, you can argue that all police officers should undergo training to understand the difference between a truculent and disobedient member of the public in the middle of a near riot situation and a shambling drunk who may well have suffered a minor stroke. But they didn’t. Yes, Ian Tomlinson shouldn’t have been struck like that – but it was an unfortunate set of circumstances – and negligence on Simon Harwood’s part – that he died as a result of that truncheon strike. Shouldn’t have happened. It still isn’t evidence that we have a Police Force full of ‘murderous bastards’.
We don’t yet know the full truth of the encounter between Mark Duggan and the Policeman who shot him dead.
It was part of Operation Trident, an incentive which was begun specifically at the request of the Black community in Brixton, horrified by the brutal murder of Marcia Laws in 1995.
Delroy Denton, a gun toting Yardie drug dealer had slashed her throat 18 times. At his trial he was branded a ‘sex fuelled psychopath’ and ‘premier league danger to the public’. He was only at liberty to commit the horrendous murder because of his willingness to inform on his fellow Yardies and thus was of assistance to the Met.
We can argue as to whether such a dangerous man should have been at liberty, or whether the Met had no choice other than to sup with the devil if they were to infiltrate the close knit Yardie community, until the cows come home.
What we do know is that on Thursday night, a young man was sent out to make a pre-planned arrest of a man who was known to be a gun dealing member of the Yardies. He was put in a uniform and given a gun to protect himself – and us – from the sort of individual, like Delroy Denton, who has been responsible for the deaths of dozens of young black youths.
On 17 July, 2006, police officers from Southwark Borough’s Operation Hamrow seized a Fiat Punto car in Peckham. In the boot was a black rucksack containing a MAC 10 machine gun capable of firing up to 1000 rounds per minute, three pistols, silencers and ammunition including 62 ‘hollow point’ bullets which are designed to explode on impact. Alongside this haul there was also a quantity of gunpowder, 60,000 fake ecstasy pills, a solid block of cocaine worth £5,200 and a Halloween mask, gloves and a balaclava.
Such are the charming individuals we expect young police officers to face.
We don’t know for sure whether Mark Duggan was the individual they planned to arrest, or merely in the company of such an individual. We don’t know for sure why shots were fired – but I am quite sure it wasn’t because the Met harbour men who kill for pleasure or simply ‘because they can’.
I am amazed that we can still find young men who will take the option of standing up to psychopathic individuals like Delroy Denton on our behalf instead of staying home on the dole or taking a cushy job somewhere flogging washing machines – we do them a great disservice to take the glib route of referring to them by the generic ‘murderous bastards’ when things go wrong.
I say that as someone who is opposed to taking a life, anywhere, under any circumstances.
They deserve better; they deserve our support.
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August 8, 2011 at 17:11 -
Clarity in defence of the law, well said.
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August 8, 2011 at 17:16 -
Excellents stuff
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August 8, 2011 at 17:34 -
This is the most balanced thing I have read on the subject so far. Thank you for making these (rather obvious, to me) points so strongly and clearly.
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August 8, 2011 at 18:29 -
They deserve our support – but they’re unlikely to get it. What with hooded anonymous young black men on TV clainming they are being targetted by ‘da poleece’ and that this is commonplace and being covered up…..
I am fully supportive of them. A difficult and dangferous job. I couldn’t do it.
Your post is excellent.
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August 8, 2011 at 18:48 -
Our previous government responded to a criminal shooting incident by passing even more draconian laws to prevent law abiding citizens owning guns. They did not see that no matter how many gun control laws are passed it will not stop those who obtain guns illegally for getting guns.
Logically then if we want to preserve law and order we must give the police the support when they ‘take out’ a suspect who threatens to harm the innocent who do not wish to have involvement with guns.
Fair play to the cops, now let’s hope the vertibrates in the coalition come down hard on gang culture.
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August 8, 2011 at 19:30 -
We know that the Met contains some bad apples who should be rooted out and booted out (Hackgate corruption, occasional over-enthusiasm during policing of demonstrations, etc.)- probably a small minority. We know that low-level corruption may be fairly commonplace, and it should be frowned upon. Well, it’s always been there, and it probably always will; not that that makes it acceptable.
Nonetheless, during the times of real riot, most Police Officers aquit themselves well, and sometimes have to display considerable courage. Similarly, addressing the problems of drug gangs, organised crime and terrorism sometimes require actions not available to Dixon of Dock Green, such as the participation of armed officers in the arrest of potentially armed suspects.
For that, the police have the support of the Silent Majority; we do not condemn them.
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August 8, 2011 at 19:50 -
What was the saying about the British army in WW1?-lions led by donkeys.
When the shit hits the fan I want to see young policemen willing to do violence (note I did NOT say policewomen) on the frontline protecting my town. Young men are notorious for making the occasional unfortunate decision so they need good on-the-ground leadership, in the absence of leadership I will live with occasional questionable action rather than waiting for orders that never arrive. Policing is difficult therefore we cannot expect perfection. Does that include shoot first and ask questions later?-maybe. Does it include lippy yoof getting hit on the collarbone with a riotstick-yep. Does it mean crowds assembled at a fiery riot would be subject to hosing down or pepper sprayed -yep.
As I write London is descending into anarchy, notably in areas where disaffected Jamaicans are numerous, though aided by what I presume to be the normal suspects (lefty whites who subscribe to the indolent lifestyle). The sun will go down soon, and the usual night creatures will feel safer to join in. It will be a long night, I do hope NATO does not decide to bomb London believing that a misunderstood minority is attempting an “Arab spring” attempt at self-rule.
By the end of the week, London may resemble Detroit-on the-Thames.
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August 8, 2011 at 19:52 -
If only ordinary policemen and policewomen were allowed to protect and serve instead of being forced to harass asnd fine, we might start to get somewhere.
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August 8, 2011 at 20:04 -
Some fair points well made here. But it’s a bit of a whitewash. The glaring example is that of Ian Tomlinson.
“Yes, the Met should not have put a young man with a notoriously short fuse and a history of violence into that unit. ”
“That” unit? He should not have been in the police force. And the fact that he expected to get away with that behaviour, (in public!) is very troubling, (even though he didn’t expect such a tragic result).Oh, and “implode” does not mean explode.
Police officers, (especially with that attitude), cannot expect instant unquestioning obedience from a free man. They are NOT our masters.
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August 8, 2011 at 20:10 -
Yes, Ian Tomlinson shouldn’t have been struck like that – but it was an unfortunate set of circumstances – and negligence on Simon Harwood’s part – that he died as a result of that truncheon strike.
Mr Harwood has a chequered police career. He will stand trial for manslaughter in October. Deliberately giving someone who you (though none of your colleagues) think is being a pain a thwack with your truncheon which culminates in his death is neither an unfortunate set of circumstances nor negligence. It’s an unjustified assault, and it’s for a jury (not the CPS) to weigh up the evidence and return the right verdict.
I doubt Mr Harwood enjoys support from most of his fellow officers, let alone the public.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADd_6ISHLdg
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August 8, 2011 at 21:02 -
So the system works, does it not?
The social services departments in Greater London have killed more people than The Met Police in recent history.
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August 8, 2011 at 21:10 -
From what I’ve seen of policemen and women here and abroad, I think we are damn lucky with what we have.
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August 8, 2011 at 22:00 -
When in Spain one night I left a bar with some friends around 4am and we saw a group of youths fighting. Two Police officers were walking across the park (not running like our bobbies when they see a fracas). When several feet away they started shouting and the fight dispersed in seconds.
One of the youths walked up to one of the officers and started telling his story, he was getting worked up and agitated (from what my friends said he started making accusations that the officers were protecting some of the people who started the fight). After a while the Officer struck the guy across the face, the guy stood back, put his hands up and apologised to the officer, the officers pointed at a couple of the group told them to go in one direction, a couple more sent another direction, a few more held for a bit before being left to wonder off.
When I mentioned the fact the officer had hit a person I was told he was lucky he was only slapped, that it was the officers way of saying – your about to cross a line, stop, and think if that’s what you want to do… I just try to imagine that here in the UK, and can think only of the group yelling the words ‘police brutality’, ‘were going to sue’, ‘I have rights you know’
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August 8, 2011 at 22:05 -
“By policemen who at the time had every reason to believe that he was a suicide bomber who had just entered a crowded tube station with a backpack of explosives”
Er, did he have a rucksack on then when he was shot?
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August 8, 2011 at 22:13 -
@ Gewyne. If the authorites and their employees were a special breed of superior creature, and we were just dumb animals, just livestock; then it would all be so simple. We wouldn’t need justice or law, just efficient husbandry and culling where necessary.
But it ain’t so. I am not obedient. Cooperative maybe, obliging and helpful sometimes. But nobody in uniform is gonna give me a slap for not moving quick enough.
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August 8, 2011 at 23:05 -
Why on earth don’t they use water cannons, I saw a riot in Amsterdam brought under control very quickly with them in the 1980s.
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August 9, 2011 at 00:54 -
As I wrote on the other post,
Can’t help thinking the police are aware that the less they do tonight the less chance of their cuts going through.
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August 9, 2011 at 06:54 -
I utterly condemn the rioting, looting, etc that is going on right now in an increasing numbers of parts of this country.
I think one of the reasons this has got so far out of control so fast is the underclass has got used to the idea that police will do nothing too them, being too busy harassing, fining and interfering in the lives of the law-abiding majority instead.
I support your sentiments in this post Anna but feel the Ian Tomlinson case as presented is a bit of a whitewash. Even today, under these circumstances, I would feel more nervous of a gang of uniforms running towards me than one made up of feral scum. I’m sure I’m not alone in that feeling and that really is not a good position to be in. Note I’ve never even had a parking ticket, don’t even download movies for free and should have no reason to feel this way and yet …
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August 9, 2011 at 08:49 -
I actually think you are alone in that feeling.
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August 9, 2011 at 09:11 -
Well said Anna. If only the BBC had found a talking head to express these sentiments on Sat & Sun, rather than the rabble rousers blaming the police for oppressing the poor yoofs, things may have been different.
Please take care of yourself.
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August 9, 2011 at 09:37 -
Excellent post, well said.
It’s just a pity that the police generally have so wantonly thrown away the trust and support they used to enjoy from the mass of the middle classes of this country.
For every one who might support and assist them when needed, I’ll show you someone who has been the subject of ruthless, capricious, sarcastic treatment following a minor moving traffic offence, or has been told that the break-in at his home will not be investigated due to “lack of resources”.
Trust once lost is very hard to regain; this is one reason why people are so ready to condemn the police out of hand.
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August 9, 2011 at 18:54 -
What a load of ignorant smug flammatory clap trap!
You obviously had no negative dealings with these racist fucking murderous bastards! What you don’t know about (closet racists) Don’t fucking chat about. Keep watching out for the fire works ! If your race or community were targeted by the police – you lot would still probably deny it-
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August 9, 2011 at 19:54 -
Flammatory?
How do you know they are racist if they are closet,…guesswork?
How do you know what race or community any of the posters are from? This is the internet for goodness sake, people from every walk of life use it…even you! You cannot tell a person’s race by the comments they make, just because they disagree with you doesn’t mean they are a different race, they just have a different perspective on life.
“Keep watching out for the fire works !”, by that stupid comment I take it you are also one of the common criminals who are out stealing and burning down innocent peoples businesses and properties, or are you one of the lacking parents, waiting for your youngsters to come home with the booty?
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August 11, 2011 at 02:04 -
Some good points but Menzes and Tomlinson are somewhat strange cases to defend. Tomlinson was not an isolated incident, l happened to be there that day on business and saw first hand what happened and the police lost a lot of respect that day and deservedly so.
Menzes was a suicide bomber who supposedly allowed police chasing him not to detonate (who in case you forget was allowed to enter the tube station by the police in the first place). ? Yeah right! if that’s the best excuse they could come up with, it beggars belief that anybody could believe it. Oop’s, …. some did!
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