‘Pay As You Go’ Driving.
Over the past four days days, Mr G has driven me around 3,000 kilometres (roughly 2,000 miles for the metrically challenged). One of his mad dashes to see something of interest to him! Enough said.
We are fortunate in owning a much loved Volkswagen California. When we get tired, we turn it into a comfortable dinning room, open the freezer, cook dinner, wash up – and if we are still tired, we go to bed in comfort. That isn’t the only reason it has been no hardship to travel that sort of distance in a few days.
We only met one brief section of ‘cones’ – around half a kilometre where the verges were being trimmed. No road works. No potholes. No traffic congestion (though admittedly we did come through Paris at 5am, a joy at that time of the morning). We never travelled more than 30 miles to a suitable calm and peaceful ‘lay-by’ – well off the road, with picnic tables and chairs so you could eat al fresco if you wished. Usually a shop where you could have excellent coffee and purchase food supplies; good food too, not just a ‘pasty’, but freshly made salads, a bottle of wine – and a complete change of clothing if necessary! Always a shower – clean and copious hot water.
We have paid for the privilege; a total of €93.70 (just under £80 at todays rates). But then, we don’t have to pay an annual road tax here in France – road tax is levied just once, when a vehicle is bought, and from memory it was about €180 for our vehicle. It’s on a sliding scale, so the older the vehicle, the less you pay. Ours was only six months old when we bought it – if it changed hands now, the one-off tax would be around €70. In the UK we would pay £215 a year in road tax, every year – and that is a concession especially for the factory built California, all other motor homes are classified as ‘conversions’ and thus pay a swinging £580 in the first year….
The last time we went to the UK, we thought we had a puncture a few miles from Dover – we didn’t, it was the road surface!
Yet whenever Toll roads are suggested for the UK, there is a chorus of disapproval along the lines of ‘improving the roads for the rich’. Last year, the Treasury collected more than £5.9 billion in VED and £26.8 billion in fuel tax. In 2010-11, a miserable £8.7 billion was spent on the roads in England. Can anybody explain to me how ‘only the rich’ are benefiting from the French system?
It seems to me that the repair of roads is a similar argument to the NHS fiasco. An idealogical argument being put forward that ‘paying as you go’ somehow only benefits ‘the rich’. Isn’t Fuel Duty ‘pay as you go’?
As a matter of interest, originally roads were maintained by the inhabitants of the nearest village – literally so. They were expected to provide their own tools and materials, and turn out for four days a year, armed with pick axe and a pile of stones, and fill in the pot holes, under a medieval Highways Act. Things looked up when – Good heavens! – toll roads were established in 1707. A private landowner could levy a charge on traffic passing through his district and use the money to maintain the road.
Where did we lose the logic of this system, and why? It is strange that a Lib/Con coalition that ought to be committed to liberal economic policies (that enshrine a free market), cannot bite the bullet and put major infrastructure projects in the hands of private business.
Let’s have a Poll on this!
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June 15, 2013 at 12:07
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Move to Brittany. No Road Tolls allowed here, by some Royal Decree or
other. Sorry, can’t remember who or when
- June 14, 2013 at 22:08
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I’d vote for any party that promised to direct car tax to road repair and
construction, if I felt I could trust them. They’d probably get in with a
landslide and then default.
- June 14, 2013 at 21:12
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If we were taxed as heavily as they are in France we could afford to have
marvellous roads. Taxation in France is about 45% of GDP compared with only
39% in the UK. The difference would pay for a lot of roads and many other
things. If we prefer to live in a relatively low-tax country then we can’t
really complain when the government doesn’t provide the high-standard
infrastructure that some high-tax countries enjoy. All we can do is to try to
make sure that the government spends its tax takings in the most
cost-effective way.
Incidentally, in the UK the justification for new road schemes is based
mainly on the requirements of commercial traffic. The needs of private car
owners are very much a secondary consideration.
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June 15, 2013 at 08:53
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Don’t be fooled Newmark, it is nearer to 90% in both countries.
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- June 14, 2013 at 17:52
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If I could trust the UK government to abolish fuel duty and vehicle excise
tax at the same time as introducing tolls then I might look on them more
favourably. However, what’s likely to happen is that there will be a token
reduction in existing taxes while the new one is established, then we’ll have
three taxes to pay instead of two and they’ll all get jacked up every year.
(Plus VAT on fuel and insurance premium tax.)
- June 14, 2013 at 16:06
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Partly echoing Frank L above – I have no objection in principle, but as he
says, the taxes raised on particular items rarely relate to what govt spends –
smokers don’t expect funded smoking rooms. So a pay as you go tax/charge
doesn’t necessarily mean better toads, without higher taxes/lower spending
elsewhere.
But it might be useful to see how much people really value their time and
if it’s worth building more roads. For example, anecdotally the M60 (?) toll
road is pretty empty. So few people really value the extra speed and
convenience, so it’s not worth building more/better roads. People don’t
actually care, as demonstrated by not wanting to pay. (Of course, if my
anecdata is wrong and it’s fairly busy, then it is worth building more/better
roads). You could do the same with potholed/non-potholed roads – are people
prepared to pay for smooth roads? Let’s have a smooth toll road, and a crappy
free one, and see what happens.
- June
14, 2013 at 13:36
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Lol…you’re in good company with the VW California…
http://www.carpages.co.uk/volkswagen/volkswagen-california-29-01-09.asp
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June 14, 2013 at 12:12
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It’s almost 80 years since it was officially called the road fund licence.
Maybe it’s about time to consign the words to history and stop using them.
They just give people the wrong idea. Taxes are levied on things, taxes are
spent on other things. Taxes are levied on my income, they aren’t used to
improve my income, I don’t complain about that. Taxes are levied on my
spending, they aren’t used to improve my shopping experience, I don’t complain
about that. Taxes are levied on your motoring, they aren’t (all) used to
improve your motoring experience. Why do you complain that they aren’t? Why do
you think they should be?
Most people are against tolls because we don’t trust our government. As has
been said, we just know that the tolls would be an additional burden rather
than an alternative to “road tax” or fuel duty. And in any case, we already
have a tax on road usage, the more you use the roads the more fuel you use and
the more tax you pay on that fuel. Why did we need a sliding scale for vehicle
excise duty? Especially one supposedly based on carbon emissions. Those
drivers emitting the most carbon dioxide already pay the most tax when they
buy the fuel that contains the carbon.
- June 14, 2013 at 12:05
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A few thoughts
Firstly why is it not Libertarian to suggest pay as you go? (as your poll),
surely it is more: http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/privatising-roads-would-benefit-drivers-and-taxpayers
Also: “though admittedly we did come through Paris at 5am, a joy at that
time of the morning”
Oh indeed. I am a bit of a Poker player, usually start at around 7pm, and
if it ends early you might wrap up around 4am. So often i have found myself
driving across London at 4/5am and it is an absolutely wonderful experience.
Sailing down Oxford street with the road almost to yourself, cruising along
Whitehall with hardly another vehicle in sight. It really lets you take in
what a very beautiful city it is without all the people. Makes you almost wish
for a Zombie apocalypse.
- June 14,
2013 at 11:44
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Indeed French roads journeys are a joy compared to UK ones, we have a small
van conversion and do exactly what you say- when tired you stop and sleep.
Loads of free or very cheap overnight stopovers usually with facilities or in
attractive small towns where there are bars and restaurants nearby.
Incidentally the VW does not enjoy special status in the UK at £220ish ,
that’s the price for ours too.
But the french system is sensibly set up to
allow poor rural people to have a small car and use it locally at lower cost –
because rural means no other means of travel is useful – and they recognise
the rural economy needs vehicles, meanwhile long distance travellers pay quite
a lot for the privelige but get decent roads.
The UK system is simply
designed to extract the maximum tax income from every opportunity without
regard for social needs – whether rural or pleasure, and ignoring that there
is a huge economic and social hit to restricting travel – so piles tolls onto
already high road tax and petrol tax. Who on earth would support MORE
taxes!
- June 14, 2013 at 17:56
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The US is set up very well for that too, motels at (usually) cheap prices
all over the place. Drive until you’ve had enough, stop at the next town and
get a room for the night. In the morning continue. Some years ago now we
drove across the US in a month, visiting interesting places and seeing
friends and relatives, and have done several driving holidays over there
since then on the same basis.
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June 14, 2013 at 21:14
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Agreed. Did the New York to San Francisco crossing on that basis,
similar timescale – stopping off wherever it looked interesting, kept
driving if the weather or the place was foul. Great way to see a big
country, especially off the major Interstate roads, totally flexible and
amazingly cheap overall.
Planning a perimeter lap of Australia next
(but not quite as many good, cheap motels along the northern section, so
she may have to rough it a bit).
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- June 14, 2013 at 17:56
- June 14, 2013 at 11:09
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And they changed the name of the (originally descriptive) “Road Fund
Licence” to the deliberately mendacious “Vehicle Excise Duty”, thinking voters
wouldn’t twig.
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June 14, 2013 at 10:34
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Ok… In my rush to make my comment, I didn’t read the previous comments, of
which mine is merely an echo.
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June 14, 2013 at 10:18
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The last time I went to France by car, a couple of years back, me and the
missus travelled mainly via the “D” roads, and they were brilliant… Mostly
empty, oddly we hardly ever saw anyone as we passed through the villages. We
did a circle of the whole place and it seemed much the same everywhere.
Hilariously, I drove something like 2000 miles without a hitch, negotiated
the very narrow streets of our main destination perfectly, and then scratched
and dented my bumper as I parked outside the tourist office (Cagne-Sur-Mer).
My how we laughed!
Anyway, I accept that your proposition is a damn good one…
Where I have an issue Anna, is that you might be a little out of touch with
the way things run across the channel…
We would get the toll roads, but we would have to retain the “road tax”,
for some green nonsense, or some equally crass excuse.
- June 14, 2013 at 10:17
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Just driven from Bristol to St Austell and Truro to Stratford upon Avon.
The patina of neglect isn’t just on the roads, it’s everywhere.
- June 14, 2013 at 10:07
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Totally agree!
I’ve just driven from Calais to Chinon and back – wonderfully smooth and
almost empty roads all the way, with tolls of approx EUR45 each way.
Coming back to Dover’s vile and broken roads was depressing.
I’m told the French use a better grade of tarmac, which is why they achieve
such a smooth surface and roads which do not melt when it’s hot.
My only slight quibble is French signs: many times I’ve had to go around a
roundabout twice, as they do not have the predictive signage we enjoy in the
UK. The microscopic, often obscured signs at the exits cannot be seen in time,
so another round* is necessary.
* Not the type of round I prefer.
- June 14, 2013 at 09:49
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I already pay as I go, as you point out, through the enormous taxes on
petrol. I also pay tax on my (legally compulsory) insurance, and another tax
for the privilege of owning a car and having to pay the other taxes.
The hardest thing to swallow is the use of the motorist to prop up all the
other profligate and wasteful spending across the government; and we just
*know* that if “pay as you go” is implemented then it will be ON TOP of all
this rather than instead of some/all of it.
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June 14, 2013 at 16:19
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Don’t forget the tax you pay on the insurance policy itself.
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- June 14,
2013 at 09:49
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My only objection to pay-as-you-go driving in the UK is that every time the
government of the day has suggested introducing it, it has been in
addition to Fuel Duty rather than in place of – and I dislike
the idea of being charged twice.
Whichever way it gets introduced (if indeed it ever does), I would fully
expect any money raised from it to disappear into general taxation and not
been spent on maintaining the roads… much like already happens.
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June 14, 2013 at 12:12
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The other objection to pay-as-you-go, as proposed in Britain, is that its
covert purpose is to add to the ever-increasing state monitoring of your
vehicle’s location. This is already done with static ANPR cameras on some
major roads, and even sneakier use in such as airport car-parks, so to add
the extra layer of logging your every mile driven allegedly for ‘charging
purposes’ would complete the picture. Of course, once you get out of your
car, your switched-on mobile-phone takes over, recording your location
relative to the local masts. There’s almost no escape already, but to feed
the data-beast with all vehicle travel information is just making it
worse.
And folk are getting twitchy about GCHQ monitoring their phone & data
use (which has gone on for a generation already) – they don’t know the half
of it.
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- June 14, 2013 at 09:46
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I love the toll roads when I’m in France visiting family and I’ve used the
Birmingham toll road and it was nice too. My issues with having more toll
roads in the UK is it would be handled with our usual cack handed idiocy. We
sell of the rights to charge tolls on chunks of motorways to companies, but
not get rid of road tax, have no control over what said companies can charge
and probably end up subsidising them.
On the bright side it’d probably mean
more people would end up taking the train.
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