When it comes to The Deficit, I am a curious bird perhaps unknown to Mother Nature, a pragmatic hawk. I think serious cut backs had to be made or we would, later or more probably sooner, have developed our very own version of Fantasy Ireland (see what I did there?) with more savage cuts imposed from beyond these shores.

I am also aware of the risk of the feared double dip recession and, I hope, open minded to sensible argument and another point of view.

With these points in mind, on Monday, whilst ironing my cassock at lunchtime I tuned my radio in to Radio 2 searching not for dialectic, or even for God, but for some Celine Dion, or even better, Shania Twain.

Instead I found that I was listening to an interview on the Jeremy Vine show with a gentleman of whom I’d never heard. His name is Tim Smit. He is an Anglo Dutch entrepreneur and he is co founder and chief executive of the Eden Project. That is the innovative and hugely successful eco project and universally praised attraction based in Cornwall.

Mr Smit is a bit of a “green”, but I very quickly realised I was listening to an interesting and experienced individual who had valuable views into the present and future and shape of the economy. Views which made sense, or which invited considered thought. He sounded urbane and measured, but he still castigated bankers and had a good swipe at politicians and the obsession with university education too. I was very engaged. So much so that I was sufficiently impressed to go back and listen to the full interview on the BBC 2 website which for a short time can be heard here.

The interview is towards the end of the show at about 1.40 pm. However, here are a few quotes which I have transcribed as best as I can.

On investment and spending:

“Very often, if you just throw lots of money at something you cover up your lack of ideas by producing something [at the start] that just looks big and flash as opposed to thinking it through properly”

“In this country we are too run by accountants”

On manufacturing and “the service economy”:

“I would say the greatest problem we have in this country is that if we allow those who are currently in authority to make us believe we are doomed to become a service economy to the rest of the world. They should be shot. We were the finest manufacturing nation in the world and in the next 20 years we will lose that memory…”

“When you see the bright young people who are inventing fantastic things… if we invested in them we would create a new range of industries, but no, no, we allow the bankers to squander that money elsewhere…”

On geothermic energy (which is not a topic I had even heard of or considered before but involves the ability to source energy from the earth’s crust, which the Eden project is helping to pioneer ).

“If we were to be bold and have an industrial revolution, where we said: “We are an island and isn’t it madness to be dependent on energy that comes from places that are a bit dodgy and from types of energy that we know we are going to be getting rid of over the next 20 to 30 years?”… the ability for us to become energy independent..[would be worth the cost and extra borrowing ]… “

On the Banks and the City:

“I think it [the City] has got a hell of a lot to answer for. The banks should have very low taxation when they are lending money to people who are actually making stuff and very high taxation when they are gambling on foreign currency…”

“British bankers who allow themselves to gamble on the decline of their own currency are guilty of treason”

“Personally I think the level of negligence and the way the bankers have asked us to forgive them…it’s unbelievable…every person in this country has suffered as a result” [of their actions]

On government spending and unemployment:

“The greatest priority has to be not to have this huge waste loss in human capital. Don’t forget that every person who is not working and not contributing is also a cost and some of the conversations behind the cuts are rather artificial. If you were in a limited company, OK, you cut staff and the costs come off your bottom line. But if you’re the government cutting costs they are just coming from one part of your budget and going into another and then you have all this wasted intelligence not going anywhere. I would prefer to gamble on being able to make things and create things which are actually wanted by someone…”

On education:

“I passionately believe that we have overrated the influence if the university system and under appreciated the contribution of those who have what traditionally were called blue collar skills. The engineering that this country made great actually came out of people who were getting their hands dirty and we need to be proud of that hands dirty tradition and bring it back”

On politicians:

“Whenever I come to London and talk to politicians I am always struck by how few of them have had a day job….It’s as if they have never taken a big risk. They seem to suffer from a fear of being disliked so they want to be all things to all people, and they don’t actually have the faith in the British people that I believe they should have”

“We are not “consumers”…we are not! We are stakeholders in this country! We are not there to be just blathered [at]…!”

Now it can be pointed out that Mr Smit had a lot of local government and Lottery funding to get the Eden Project of the ground. I don’t know how much. Mr Smit agrees. He says that he used it to get the Project built and says that that since then it has been self sufficient and generated a great deal of money for the local economy, and one assumes, himself. Presumably he is paying some of it back – I don’t know, but if not that’s for local government and the Lottery to answer for and their representatives may be guilty of misfeasance.

But I was interested by his passionate yet clear and reasoned arguments about how we should look to restructure and refocus the economy towards “hard” hands on skills and away from the Casino of the City. Views which, I have to say, he put more attractively in a 10 minute interview than Call Me Dave has managed to do in over about a year.

I heard someone who had achieved something real, built a vision which seemed if not impossible, unlikely, seen it through and made it work. And that is a spectacular success. Someone with a vision for a real economy based on flourishing new technologies, not just institutionalised spread betting using the your money; which is a perfectly accurate summation of a large part of what brought about the banking crisis.

I found the idea of a heavy tax on profits from non what is essentially non productive lending and incentives for lending to manufacturing rather appealing. Yes, I can see the problems, but I was still engaged. Of course, governments fear the loss of income if banks move off shore. But should we not perhaps have feared the damage that the banks who have had to be bailed out did more? In net terms, if one weighed the taxation income from banks over say the last 10 years against cost of bailing them out, what would be the result? I don’t know, but I wonder if the banks are the cash cow governments thinks. But then, governments think short term.

A huge investment to fund self sufficiency in energy? Well, the country is cash strapped but one can see the sense. As a nation we are heavily reliant on foreign gas and now electricity, for example. Strategically, one might suggest that is not a good idea. And have not recent events in Japan confirmed we may need an alternative to nuclear energy? The costs may be high, but would this not be worthwhile investment? Should I reconsider my view on public spending?

Maybe geothermic energy is pie in the sky. But so was the Eden Project, once. So was the V8 engine, by the way. Henry Ford had the idea. His engineers told him it couldn’t be done. He said “build it anyway.” His engineers tried, and failed. He told them to try again. They did, and failed again, repeatedly. He persisted. And the rest is history.

As I say, there are issues with details but here was a man with something to say, even if there are matters upon which I might disagree.

I was quite uplifted and engaged.

And then it all went so very, very, horribly wrong. For after his interview finished I made the crucial mistake of turning over to Radio 5 Live, which now that Simon Mayo has gone from the afternoon slot is a bit like turning up at an old friend’s house only to find out that he’s dead.

And there HE was, all his pie stained ermined glory wafting through the airways.

For Lord Prescott of Pies was being interviewed. Bloated on expenses and his vast pensions, intellectually slack, a dribblesome bore, rooted in class prejudice. Blustering, rude and incomprehensible, doing for the English language what Dutch Elm disease did for the National Trust.

I would not engage with this man unless it was with a howitzer.

I tried to remember one achievement of his. One thing that he had done. One policy that made a difference. I could call to mind only one. Something to do with knocking down old houses. Yes… I remembered reading about it. That’s the one where old houses were bulldozed on the promise of new ones (communities being destroyed in the meantime) when it would have been cheaper and more sensible to renovate the old ones.

And the promised new houses weren’t built anyway, by the way. The Government couldn’t get planning permission for them and ran out of money anyway. Whizzo, John!

After a few minutes my brain rebelled, and I returned to my cloister. I pondered Prescott’s pension and perks, ennobled and carefree. I pondered my own lack thereof. I considered who was more fit for high office: Prescott or Smit? It wasn’t a hard question to answer.

By the way, if you are pondering on the title, I suggest you “google” it.

Gildas the Monk

Jim Too March 19, 2011 at 08:53

That is a good post Mr Monk, so thank you for bringing it to my attention.
However, I would like to pick you up on this remark:
“Well, the country is
cash strapped….”.

This is a message which I think you`ve absorbed subliminally, since it
seems to have become the current mantra of our government, and hence has been
picked up and is repeated by the BBC and the MSM.

Wrong; the government has plenty of cash, our cash, taken from us in the
form of taxes from our labours, purchases, etc. The major problem is what they
do with it. I am sure I`m not alone in believing that a lot of it is wasted.
You sometimes see reports of this in the press, but usually not. But look at
the amount which flows into the government coffers annually, and then tell me
that we are cash strapped; nope don`t believe it.

We are a rich country, remember we are able offer millions in aid every
year to overseas countries. Not something a cash strapped country would be
able to do.

Joe Public March 16, 2011 at 19:41

“On manufacturing and “the service economy”:”

Probably 75% of our large manufacturing factories have closed to become the
ubiquitous Retail Park, full of the same B&Qs, Comets, Argos clones
etc.

Cascadian March 16, 2011 at 16:26

In these troubled times I can relate to a need for a”good news” story,
especially if it comes from a fellow who seems to challenge the status quo.
Sadly I don’t think the Eden project fits the bill.

As with seemingly all things produced by the BBC these days further
investigation is required and if you review the annual report here http://www.edenproject.com/documents/Annual-review-2008-2009.pdf
a
different story emerges.

Although the Eden project is nearly self sufficient as a tourist
destination it is quite clear that without gobs of public money it would be
insolvent. Amongst some private foundations the following agencies subsidize
it:

Arts Council England
Big Lottery Fund – Playful Ideas
Department of
Communities and Local
Government
Department of Environment, Food
and
Rural Affairs
Department of Work and Pensions
European
Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee
Fund (Objective One
Cornwall)
European Regional Development Fund (Objective
One
Cornwall)
European Social Fund
Homes and Communities Agency
London
LSC
Restormel Borough Council
Rural Renaissance Fund
South West
Regional Development Agency

And of the earned income, the charitable trust quite proudly announce that
they receive a further 28p collected from the government for every pound
earned. So yet another rent seeker, subsidized to the tune of GBP5 million (my
guess-probably on the low side)

As too Mr Smits geothermal power plant, a quick perusal of their plan http://www.edenproject.com/whats-it-all-about/climate-and-environment/sustainability-at-eden/Geothermal.php

reveals some major gaps in the engineering, not least of which is a
proposal to “drill” by fracturing the substrate with high pressure water
-commonly known as “fraccing” -which has caused local subsidence and even
earth tremors elsewhere, not very neighbourly! And a contradictory statement
that the well bores will be cased to avoid aquifer pollution, its one or the
other drilled and cased or fracced! I doubt the plant will ever be built its
capital cost will be enormous and the risks too high-hence I suppose Mr Smits
comments about the banks reluctance to lend their clients money.

Sorry Gildas, this is yet another green dream. It really is about time for
people to sit and think about how they enjoy CONSTANT access to reasonably
cheap electrical energy, then demand of the governments a plan to construct
it. I will save my harangue about how this can ONLY be achieved with nuclear
energy for another day.

Having said all that I concur that any drivel expounded by Mr Smits is
preferable to the dribble from prescott.

Jim March 17, 2011 at 14:11

I didn’t think the Eden project was a privately funded profitable
business, and its good to have that thought confirmed.

A better person to ask their thoughts on UK plc’s attitude to innovation
and manufacturing would be James Dyson. A man who has both innovated and
manufactured in the UK, though no more sadly as its easier and cheaper to do
it abroad nowadays. He is the sort of person whose advice should be sought
and taken, not some eco-loon whose project only got going because taxpayers
money was thrown at it.

Always seek advice from someone who has had to convince tens of thousands
of individuals to part freely with their money for his goods or services,
not someone who only had to convince a bureaucrat to sign a few big cheques
at the taxpayers expense.

Bill March 16, 2011 at 12:57

Gildas
May I recommend Mr Smits most excellent book about the birth of
Eden. A fascinating insight into the art of getting things done.

Eden
# ISBN-10: 0593048830
# ISBN-13: 978-0593048832

Gildas theMonk
March 16, 2011 at 21:19

Thank you Bill I shall read with interest !

Sister Eva
Longoria March 16, 2011 at 11:31

I don’t understand a lot of the above, but I just enjoyed the film! All
seemed to make sense to me…!

PT March 16, 2011 at 11:21

Some cogent thinking in article and comments. One thing illustrated by the
Japanese experience is the scale of the human population, the fact that these
days there are just so many humans requiring assistance when any disaster
strikes a densely populated area – since we humans are ourselves a part of
nature I do not distinguish between “natural” and “man-made” disasters.
Centuries ago there were many fewer of us. We could cook and keep ourselves
warm by burning trees. Then there was coal, a more concentrated fuel, and
there were more of us, and our cities grew larger. So then there was oil and
gas, even more convenient fuels, and our cities and populations could grow
still more. Today, as the peak of easily reached fossil fuels has passed, our
population still grows, so we need ever more energy, torrents of it. There are
not enough trees left to supply us with it, given our bloated population; wind
power is expensive and extremely unreliable and so, therefore, is wave power.
Tidal power is little-used, almost not even considered by the ruling class.
Fusion power is still just a future possibility, so what is left? For now, we
have no choice but to trust our nuclear physicists and engineers to design and
build the most reliable possible fission power plants, incorporating all the
lessons learnt from previous accidents, older designs. An additional safeguard
would be to impose draconian, even inhuman penalties on all involved who
attempt to shortcut safety components or procedures, or who specify, provide
or use any substandard material in their construction – cutting corners with
these things should be considered a crime against humanity.

fake March 16, 2011 at 11:16

Surely it is better to just give manufacturing a tax break, than to try and
fiddle about with banking tax laws to “encourage” them to do as we wan’t.

But anyway.

*but no, no, we allow the bankers to squander that money elsewhere…”*

Allow?

Allow people to chose how they invest their money, yes we do, and we
should.

I can see the logic of giving tax breaks for banks that invest into UK
manufactring. But heavy taxes for investing outside, smacks rather of “I don’t
like this so I am going to stop it”, rather than any sensible economic
point.

His whole rant smacks of “lot’s of people have lots of bright ideas, and
the banks are not giving them money to put them into the real world”. Without
every saying why, why would a bank not put money into a good idea that could
make money.

My BS detector started warbling on that one.

Engineer March 16, 2011 at 11:04

I’d agree that Tim Smit is a thoughtful and intelligent guy, and certainly
one who has achieved in the face of seemingly insuperable odds – definitely a
person who’s views should be respected. I concur wholeheartedly with his views
on university education, the value and worth of practical people getting their
hands dirty, but I’d prefer a balanced economy with a vibrant and flexible
private sector, and a public sector doing the minimum but doing it really
well.

On power generation, it’s more complicated. There are hundreds of ways of
generating fairly small amounts of power, but very few proven ways of
producing a lot when it’s needed, and even fewer in development that look like
they will. Politics complicates matters by getting it’s knickers in a knot
over (the unproven and somewhat doubtful) AGW, and we don’t help ourselves by
being rather profligate with what we do generate. Combine this with the
provision of heating and transport fuels, and we have many challenges facing
us.

(Geothermal energy is big in Iceland, but they have hot rocks very close to
the surface. In this country, with a far more stable geology, that sort of
heat is too deep to access. That doesn’t mean we can’t use the lower-grade
heat we can get at, but it does mean that it’s very unlikely to be a major
source of energy here.)

woodsy42 March 16,
2011 at 10:38

As I remember it the Eden Project was the ‘private’ project that competed
with the government’s ‘Millenium Dome’ white elephant. Goes to show where the
sensible ideas come from.
Visited the MD a few years ago and it was a
fascinating day out, a bit green and econutty around the edges but aimed at
logical sustainability and sensible solutions so acceptably so.

woodsy42 March
16, 2011 at 21:13

I’m an idiot, didn’t mean MD meant EP – arghhh!

Châtelaine March 16, 2011 at 10:19

Being Dutch myself, I thoroughly enjoyed Mr. Smit’s very recognisable
no-nonsense observations It
may be refreshing for you, being used to the U.K. bla-bla; it surely is for
me, being confronted with the FRENCH on a daily basis.

Fidel March 16, 2011 at 09:40

An excellent read, my dear tonsured fellow. I missed that interview, and as
for the Prescott thing, well I’ve yet to discover anything he says that has
much basis in reality or common sense, so I find it better for my stomach if I
just don’t listen to his confused ramblings.

I did catch Jeremy Vine interviewing that Professor Whatsisname yesterday,
it really cut through the BS where Nuclear Power is concerned and some of the
callers questions made good entertainment.

We really don’t have a better alternative to Nuclear Power, no matter what
the detractors say, I agree with the previous poster’s comments about
Geothermal energy – it’s good for the environment but sod-all else.

Jeremy Poynton
March 16, 2011 at 09:06

Good stuff … however, read this – http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/science/earth/11quake.html
– on GeoThermic energy

Livewire March 16, 2011 at 08:46

If you want the ultimate in ‘never give up’ stories look up Sikorski and
what it took to develop the first successful helicopter.
No disagreement on
the need for hands-on skills, just on the vocalist choice – Bonnie Tyler blows
the socks off Celine Dion!

Gildas theMonk
March 16, 2011 at 09:05

Ah! My Bonnie Tyler Greatest Hits is close to hand….!

Gildas theMonk
March 16, 2011 at 08:43

Thanks for the comments. Re nuclear energy, I take all points on board, and
I think I was suitably equiviocal – confirmed we may. Perhaps “suggest we may2
would have been more appopriate although even that may upset some! From what I
have read about geothermic energy it seems a long way off, but my point is,
and I think this is clear, not that I am a slavish devotee of Mr Smit’s ideas
but rather how refreshing to hear interesting intelligently presented
imaginative views which engage rather than short sighted drivel.
Cheers
all!

Tacitus March 16, 2011 at 08:24

Well they may not have blown up, but I, for one am sure glad I don’t live
alongside one! After the Japan experience it will force many to re-evaluate
the legitimacy of nuclear fuel.

Dick March 16, 2011 at 09:02

I’d rather live near a nuclear power station than a coal-fired one!

For one reason, you do realise that a coal-fired power station emits far
more radioactivity into the atmosphere than a nuclear one, don’t you? (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste)

– Dick

ivan March 16, 2011 at 11:25

Dick, the problem most people have is the word nuclear because the MSM
has proclaimed that nuclear=big bang when in fact the bang making and
power making are two different technologies. They also, conveniently, omit
that a nuclear power station reactor will not go bang. The worst thing
that can happen is that the core melts.

Cascadian
March 16, 2011 at 16:59

Thanks Dick thats one for the file.

My own personal favourite to get the watermelons screaming and running
for cover-the radioactive banana-we’re all gonna die!!!

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/02/16/going-bananas-over-radiation/

Joe Public
March 16, 2011 at 19:38

Guess a reason Japan doesn’t have many Dams?

Richard B March
16, 2011 at 07:45

“And have not recent events in Japan confirmed we may need an alternative
to nuclear energy?”

No. They have confirmed that, even with 30-year-old technology, well-run
nuclear stations can suffer catastrophic damage way beyond anything they were
designed for and still not blow up. The events in Japan demonstrate to me that
nuclear energy is much safer than we give it credit for. The disappointment of
the BBC in the reactors’ continued failure to melt down and kill millions is
palpable.

Even if people do suffer from the events, we have to ask how many would
have died or become ill if the energy of the last 30 years had been produced
conventionally – pollution from gas or coal power stations, miners killed and
so on. Nuclear is still the best option for the foreseeable future.

Ed P March 16, 2011 at 07:43

Cogent stuff!

Now where can I get a Lord P of P T-shirt, printed with, “Doing for the
English language what Dutch Elm disease did for the National Trust”? With a
complementary XXXXXL size for the pie-master himself!

Death Rides A
Tryke March 16, 2011 at 09:10

I can only concur!

John Leon March 16, 2011 at 07:42

No, the recent events in Japan have NOT confirmed an alternative to Nuclear
energy. Do you seriously believe geothermic heating can run a high speed rail
network or a steel refinery? I would suggest you read about the latest
generation of Fission recators that are going to come online in the next 10 to
20 years as well as the Fusion reactor experiments that are milimetre by
milimetre becoming a reality. Japan has suffered the most horrific natural
disaster, which has taken the lives of many thousands, devastated perhaps
millions more, a disaster which has nothing to do with CAGW, in which the
Nuclear power plants scrammed as they should have done immediately after the
earthquake, but the cooling systems were compromised by the tsunami which
followed after but STILL have been shut down with NO significant leak of
harmful radiation and the smug arrogance of the know nothing chattering
classes prattle on about a non event, magnified out of all proportion by knee
jerk reactions by fundamentally intellectually challenged politicians such as
Angela Merkel who display as much understanding about the actual situation as
a severe mental parapleigic. They do not for one minute think about those
suffering the aftermath, just about junk enviromental science and their own
vacuous opinions. How about waking up to the fact that modern societies
require huge amounts of electricity, 24 hours a day, year round and not when
the wind blows or the terrain can support it. In the last 60+ years there have
been some enormous, beyond beleif stupid decisions regarding fission energy,
especially in the U.K. ( Seascale/Sellafield) and the old Soviet Union, all
down to monumentaly narrowminded nationalism, it seems a pity that this
stupidity cannot be discarded and Nuclear discussed and understood in a level,
reasoned way, when researched intelligently, is the best technical solution we
have right now.

Dick March 16, 2011 at 08:56

Hear Hear

For an account of the shutdown story so far, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/

For an article by a nuclear physicist (originally entitled “Why I am not
worried about Japan’snuclear reactors.” when it was on his personal blog
before being moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering site) and some
followups giving hard facts from people who do actually know something about
the subject, see http://mitnse.com/

– Dick

Rog March 16, 2011 at 07:41

Very interesting read. Prescott has the ability to instantly depress
me.

Grumpy Old Man
March 16, 2011 at 06:22

Best read I’ve had for weeks. Thanks Gildas.
As a shop steward in the
’60s, Mr Prescot played a major part in destroying what was left of the
declining Liverpool luxury liner trade and removing seaman’s jobs from the UK
to India and the far east. Creating desolation was what he was best at, even
then.