Ok, I want United to Lose, but Who Cares?
Here’s a list of football teams that all have a few things in common. Liverpool, Everton, Ipswich Town, Bolton Wanderers, Millwall, Aston Villa, Tottenham Hotspur, Fulham, Middlesbrough, Newcastle United, Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United, Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Dunfermline Athletic, Livingston, The New Saints (formerly Total Network Solutions), Barry Town, Rhyl, Wrexham, Cardiff City, Swansea City, Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown, Coleraine.
The first part of the ‘common ground’ puzzle should be fairly obvious – namely that they are all British teams who have played in European competition in the last twenty years or so (the period of time I have spent watching and following football). What also binds them together is the fact that despite none of them being ‘my team’, I genuinely wanted all of them to do well and to progress into the next round until or unless two British sides met each other. Then I would in all likelihood revert back to supporting the English team unless Glasgow Rangers, for whom I have always had a soft spot, were involved.
I remember watching Sportsnight many years ago on the BBC. It would be around the early 1990s (hopefully the fact I cannot name the exact year will confirm that this story is authentic). Anyway, Linfield had been narrowly beaten 3-2 on aggregate by 1981 CupWinnersCup victors Dinamo Tbilisi in the Qualifying Round for the old European Cup (yes, they only had one qualification round back then and only teams that had actually won their domestic league were allowed to enter the competition – those were the days). However, ‘Blues’ were awarded a bye into the first round proper when it turned out the Georgians had paid officials prior to the first leg of the tie, which they had won 2-1.
Linfield then caused a shock by trouncing FC Copenhagen 3-0 at Windsor Park, which made them clear favourites to go through even if the second leg went to form.I had no means of following the game and was not even a teenager back then, but remember being utterly devastated when the scores from that night’s European matches came through and it was confirmed that Copenhagen had won 4-0 after extra time to progress (a tie against AC Milan awaited the winner in the next round). I read the scores in the paper the next day and was hurt to discover that only an injury time goal had forced the additional period in the first place.
Some five years later, I remember listening to BBC Local Radio one night because updates of a much bigger story were being fed through on a regular basis. Having lost the first leg 3-1 in Budapest, Barry Town had taken the score against BVSC to 3-1 in their favour in the second leg at Jenner Park. The game went into an extra 30 minutes followed by penalties, and the Hungarians bottled it. It was the biggest result ever achieved by a League of Wales club at the time and in truth it probably remains so.
OK, some of that is so sad that there is no possible way I could have made it up. But the point is that when I claim to wish British teams well in Europe as a general rule, I’m deadly serious. Most of the time the English sides will be on television or BBC Radio, and if you’re operating at a lower level in an earlier stage of the competition, you can always have an update screen on the Internet available while doing something else. It also makes sense to extend the goodwill to clubs from the Emerald Isle on occasion, such as when Shelbourne had a phenomenal run to the Third Qualifying Round of the Champions League in 2005, knocking out Hadjuk Split along the way.
Now if you look at that list again, you’ll see some notable omissions. Arsenal play great football from a cosmetic point of view, but the preference of Arsene Wenger for technically superior ball-players from overseas leaves them with a style that you could not really identify as British. Chelsea and Manchester City’s shared policy of filling a trolley with big-name ‘star’ signings tends to grate with many, myself included. I once wrote an article suggesting that City had ‘lost some soul’ which prompted predictably angry comments from the Eastlands faithful. With that memory in mind, I’ll tread on the side of caution and not repeat certain words or phrases, but there are two comments worth making here.
In relative terms to their old, partisan and romantic Maine Road ground, Eastlands is indeed soulless. As a result of this and, to be honest, their status of no longer being rubbish or broke, any real warmth I felt towards City as a club died a couple of years ago. However, if any of Arsenal, Chelsea or City get to the serious stages of a European competition I tend to find that a trace of that ‘support your own’ impulse returns (this is of course as long as they are playing non-British opposition). So in the event of one of them making the final of either the Champions League or the Europa, I’d be supporting them unequivocally. Naturally, this brings us to the one British side in the equation that has not been mentioned yet – namely, Manchester United.
For the benefit of anyone who has been in space or buried on Twitter for the last few weeks, the Red Devils have the small matter of an engagement on Saturday evening against Barcelona, whose current side probably ranks as one of the greatest club teams in the history of the game. In Lionel Messi, they have the player widely regarded as currently the best on earth, a man whose ability to dribble through a whole team at speed as well as being Argentinian has prompted obvious comparisons with Diego Maradona. Barca also have talents on their roster such as Xavi and Iniesta whose ability to play through the opposition mean that stopping Messi does not necessarily halt the Catalonian machine.
United are a British team playing in a European final at Wembley and go in as clear underdogs, yet there still remains a huge wave of the British population wanting a decisive and emphatic Barcelona win. As one of this group, I thought about the various reasons why this might be.
The first thing worthemphasising is this is not all the ‘fault’ of United, so to speak. The Barcelona side I just referred to happen to be one of those rare occurrences in the history of the sport – a team that plays what Ruud Gullit would call sexy football while actually winning things. Arsenal, aka – the Barca of England – have won the square root of zip for precisely six years. The Hungary team inspired by Ferenc Puskas who annihilated England at Wembley in 1953 ultimately lost in the World Cup Final the following year despite being seen as the most talented collection of players. Johan Cruyff’s Total Football side of the 1970′s may have played the game with an unearthly sense of fluidity, but they also came up short when it mattered.
Barca remain successful despite the handicap of sticking to an ideal of how the game should be played at all times and have many admirers worldwide as a result. However, this does not account for all of the antipathy towards Manchester United. When Liverpool were the dominant British team in the 1970s and 1980s, they may not have been universally popular, but it is clear that they experienced nowhere near the same level of disdain. What is it about the way in which those at Old Trafford are perceived that makes so many English fans want a foreign team, albeit one more popular than most, to destroy them? There appear to be three main strands to the negativity towards the club as a whole and it is worthexploring them separately:-
First up – the argument that United are a ‘lucky’ team in the sense that they benefit from a disproportionate number of decisive goals scored in generous portions of injury time. There can be no doubt that United have led the way in terms of the maxim that every game lasts ninety minutes, or ninety six and a half in many cases. Going right back to Steve Bruce’s 97th minute winner against Sheffield Wednesday in 1993, their ability to change the outcome of a match at the death has both kept them believing and weighed heavily on the mental stamina of opponents.
The critical question is – do United, especially at Old Trafford, get that bit of extra time in which to turn the game around? The answer would appear to be yes. A study was carried out assessing the stoppage time of all matches at ‘the Theatre of Dreams’ over a three year period between August 2006 and September 2009. In those instances where the home team was ahead after 90 minutes, an average of 191 seconds was advised as additional time by the fourth official. When the visitors held at least a share of the game at that point, this figure increased by over a minute to 257 seconds. Given the number of occasions where United have pinched either a draw or a victory with what has effectively been the last kick of the game, that additional 66 seconds has proved to be decisive on more than one occasion.
They are also said to be terrible losers, who lack class and dignity when defeated by opposition that was better on the day. The answer to this charge would also appear to be an unequivocal ‘affirmative’. When Southampton spanked United at the Dell in April 1996, Alex Ferguson’s response was not to state that, “They were awesome” or “We were useless”, but to suggest that the defeat was down to a clash between the clouds and the grey away strip that United were wearing. Other great Ferguson-isms include blaming the referee, the referee’s assistant, the crowd, the lack of sufficient stoppage time, and suggesting that the other side’s players are cheating their manager by raising their game when they play United. One could not have imagined someone like Bob Paisley for instance, a former manager of another immensely successful English club, reacting to defeat in the same way.
What can be said in Ferguson and his side’s defence however, is that in all likelihood, it is this total hatred of losing (which manifests itself in a complete lack of grace when it happens) that has spurred them on to the achievement of 12 titles in the last 19 seasons. There is undeniable merit in the suggestion that while nobody positively likes being defeated, some sort of direct correlation exists between one’s ability to lose graciously and their propensity for coming second. The cliche that as a nation we do not take too kindly to natural winners appears to have a basis in fact too if one takes some of the examples of history.
Despite a remarkable run of success over a period of five years at the end of the 1980s and into the early 1990s, Nick Faldo was never really a figure of national pride. Eric Bristow remained deeply unpopular either despite or because of his dominance of darts in the decade of odd socks and rubix cubes depending on your perspective. Was it the ‘Craftey Cockney’s’ brash and borderline arrogant personality that alienated him from many fans, or merely the fact that they wanted someone other than Bristow to return home with the gold for once? A bit of a clue as to the validity of the thesis lies in the fortunes of two of Barry Hearn’s biggest stars, Chris Eubank and Steve Davis. Both were less than loved by the general public while at the top of their respective ladders, but began to enjoy affection from that same populous when they dropped out of genuine world class.
Finally there is the slightly more marginal issue of the intimidation of officials. Watching the likes of Ferdinand and Vidic jump on an official as they did in the recent game at Blackburn does make one wonder if the presence of six-foot-something footballers shouting at them from point blank range influences the final decision. Of course, that judgement call at Ewood Park went their way as Wayne Rooney scored the penalty that ultimately sealed that 19th League title to go one ahead of Liverpool. Did the surrounding of the ref work, or was that the decision that would have been reached anyway? Do United really gang up on decision-makers more than other Premier League sides?
Having seen plenty of 50-50 decisions involving other Premiership sides this season, the conclusion I would come to is while they do not do this noticeably more than anyone else, United give the impression of being amongst the most well rehearsed at it. Football is of course an emotional and highly-charged game, and much of what you see in the heat of battle is spontaneous reaction to the ups and downs that can occur over 90 minutes. What the top teams appear to have perfected however is the knack of making the choreographed look spontaneous – ie a ‘planned spontaneous reaction’ to what they believe is a foul, or a contentious and key decision. United are masters of the craft but then are far from alone. Arsenal and Chelsea, for example have also taken to this black art with some aplomb. Watch how quickly their players form a corden around an official who crosses them and then ask if United really are isolated offenders.
Maybe another large part of the reality is that Ferguson and his team are actually most comfortable with the notion of being unpopular. After taking over from Ron Atkinson in 1986, Alex (long before he became a sir) stated quite unequivocally that he would not rest until United had “knocked Liverpool off their fucking perch”. Turning oneself into a national treasure does not exactly dovetail with such single-mindedness, and anyone who has heard the Govan man’s thoughts on finishing second will know which clearly means more to him. When he first took over at United, he had to deal with a drinking school that was perceived to have lost any semblance of control. Bryan Robson, his best player at the time, could not be done without but the likes of Paul McGrath and Norman Whiteside, fans’ favourites though they were, had to be moved on.
In one of his early encounters with his new gaffer, Robson had attempted to defend the reputations of some of the players already at the club. Ferguson’s riposte was to the point, “Oh really – what have you won? Isn’t that what the game is supposed to be about – winning things?.” The reasoning was that the successful, as opposed to the popular, were those who left marks on mortality, and that a jolly nice chap who ultimately lost is remembered only as a man who failed. A glance at the record of Australia’s cricket team in the 1990s confirms that this analysis has the weight of evidence on its side. Alan Border and then Steve Waugh after him moulded a side that was nasty, aggressive, sledged their opponents and harassed officials. They were also appalling losers, on the rare occasions that it happened.
They may have upset English players by refusing to share a drink with them after the day’s play in 1989, but the first thing remembered is the scoreline of that six-match series, which read:- England 0 Australia 4. Being English and a fan of the sport, I’ve never cared much for the Australian cricket team either, but as they took the crown of unofficial world champions by winning in West Indies in 1995, I very much doubt that Border cared less whether people like myself loved him or his players. What I did have was a grudging respect for their achievements – it was impossible not to. Though I’ll still want them to lose come Saturday evening, it is no easier to ignore what United have put together over the last two decades.
One suspects that the only danger of an upsurge in neutral support for United would arrive if they were to go into some sort of serious post-Ferguson decline. I say ‘post-Ferguson’ because there is no way he would ever allow such a slide to take place on his watch. After years of being immensely disliked but equally successful, I don’t think he could handle winning a popularity contest now. If people like myself wanted United to win tomorrow, one gets the feeling that this might be when he became deeply worried.
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May 28, 2011 at 12:19 -
As a loyal Red, I think you have a point. Fort those Raccoonistas who think that this should be a football free site, I’d say: have an open mind.
What is most interesting is Sir Alex’s psychology and the use he makes of psychology. The “everyone is against us, band of brothers” siege mentality is clearly one which he deploys and indeed enjoys. And clearly it works. Ferguson’s drive and commitment and indeed ruthlessness are clearly phenomenal, and worthy of discussion and observation.
As it happens, back in about 1989 I attended a small charity dinner – a very modest affair indeed – which SAF attended. He seemed a quiet, very charming man. My verdict afterwards very very clear. No way would he last as manager. Much too nice.
Show’s what I know!
Come on you Reds!-
May 28, 2011 at 14:44 -
Hi Gildas – he has certainly cultivated that siege mentality to bring his players together. It always amazes me how many modern players never do much after leaving United – guys like Luke Chadwick and Ronnie Wallwork who appeared to have great careers ahead of them despite falling just short.
That environment seems to get more out of players than any other club/manager ever could. In this regard, Ferguson reminds me of Brian Clough, possibly the greatest British manager of all time. -
May 29, 2011 at 19:46 -
I would have an open mind about this except for the fact that La Raccoonista herself detests my own blood-thrilling favourite, MotoGP (also favourite of her beloved Mr G Raccoonisto I believe) and who shoots some very damning snipes about it with monotonous regularity. I know it is not she who pens this paean to the beautiful game and, as I write this on 29.05.2011 we all know how the game went. Nuff said.
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May 28, 2011 at 12:43 -
As a Manchester City supporter of over 50 years, I can tell you that all City fans bar the usual moaners that all clubs have, are delighted by how our ARab owners have paid total respect to the club’s history and our fans – our hardcore of 40,000 or so who are with the club come hell or high water. Only 12 years ago, our family attended the 2nd (i.e. 3rd) division play-offs at Wembley. Now we are looking to conquer Europe. That’ll do. And yes, I too want United to lose as they stick in my craw and always have done, ever since a mate of mine, who “supported” City, told me after we had got relegated (again) that he now supported United.
Only those who have been down in the depths can truly taste success.
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May 28, 2011 at 12:49 -
So Gildas – what part of Manchester and surrounds are you from? I was born near Stockport (who I used to watch on a Friday night) and my Grandpa was a United fan from their Newton Heath days. I went for City as I liked the shirt colour, but more importantly, because Bert Trautmann played for us. Beyond exotic. One bus ride from Maine Road, I could get on a bus just round the corner from home and jump off in Upper Lloyd Street, a minute from the ground.
I used to go to OT as well – to watch George Best (who lived down the road from us for a while) and jeer United (i.e. in the scoreboard (away) end). Met him a couple of times – he was very sweet and unassuming, with a lovely twinkle. Indeed, I met Matt Busby once, on Piccadilly station – a true gentleman, unlike the lout in charge now.
A question for you – to what event related to City do United owe all their success to?
As yet, I am yet to find a United fan who knows the answer to this. Mind you, most City fans know far more about United’s history than all these so -called United “fans” who now cling to the club like a great big teat.
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May 28, 2011 at 14:54 -
Well, as to my environs, I shall say little for my identity must remain a secret, or I would risk…matters. However, safe to say that I used to attend at Old Trafford from the later days of the Holy Trinity (that’s Charlton Law and Best in these circumstances, readers) although I was too young to fully appreciate. As to the event, the only thing I can think of is that from memory United had to ground share with City at one stage, and may have faced extinction without that. But United’s defining moment has been and always should be – Munich.
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May 28, 2011 at 13:08 -
I should start supporting United….whenever I take an interest in a team they get relgated.
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May 28, 2011 at 13:08 -
Writing as a man with absolutely no interest in sport in General, or Football in particular (and there is some doubt in my mind as to whether football should retain the title of a sport anyhow), I would comment only upon the paragraphs and thoughts regarding the harassment and intimidation of match referees and linesmen especially in the Premier League.
I cannot by agree totally with the thoughts expressed that match officials should not have to face such blatant attempts to influence a decision, or attempt to have a decision altered if already taken. I watch very little sport, and even less football, but one cannot view even spliced extracts without watching, time and time again, big, burly intimidating figures crowd menacingly around a lone referee as he tries to do his job!
As far as I believe, such actions warrant a Yellow Card for the first verbal assault, and a Red Card and suspension for a second or any attempt at future harassments; and such warnings would remain permanently on a club and players records.
Perhaps such action by referees would hasten the demise of this unsportmanlike and disgraceful activity in a sector of our national game which is fast being discredited by the continued denigration of those same match officials!
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May 28, 2011 at 14:37 -
Hear, hear.
Football could take a leaf from Rugby Union’s book. Any backchat to the referee, and your team goes back ten yards. Referees, in consequence, are respected, whether their decisions are right or wrong.
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May 28, 2011 at 13:08 -
relegated
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May 28, 2011 at 13:49 -
My dream scenario for tonight is as follows…..
The match has to go to extra time and it goes to a penalty shoot out. Each player in turn scores for both teams. With the teams deadlocked it is decided that the two managers are required to take a spot kick. Pep Guardiola sends Van Der Sar the wrong way, thus leaving Alex ferguson to take the pressure kick ….. and the sour faced Glaswegian twat balloons it over the bar!
Result!
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May 28, 2011 at 13:56 -
Thanks for reminding me, I will never forget this night.
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May 28, 2011 at 14:00 -
Pompey played in Europe too you know and we were 20 seconds away from beating an AC Milan team with Kaka and Ronaldinho in it. Fratton park was jumping that night, I don’t think the Milan players knew what hit them.
I shall support United tonight albeit grudgingly as they are British and it is at Wembley. Which should be nice for their fans as they won’t have far to go home. -
May 28, 2011 at 14:04 -
May 28, 2011 at 14:04 -
As a Pompey fan I was thoroughly delighted when we beat ManU at Old Trafford on the way to winning the FA Cup in 2008 (albeit with a team specifically bought for the purpose and which ultimately proved to be their downfall!)
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May 28, 2011 at 14:19 -
Yes I agree Ashtrayhead but it was fun wasn’t it, though beating Spurs in last year’s semi was even sweeter.
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May 28, 2011 at 14:59 -
Liked your analysis of Fergie’s success and the hatred that breeds in losers, it was ever thus. A couple of things though, this Barca team are indeed superb, easily the best ever Spanish club, but I reckon Cruyff’s 72-74 Ajax would have handed them their arse on a plate. Nice memories of the ‘smaller’ teams doing well in european competitions though, brought back to mind Dundee United beating Barca home and away in the Eufa cup in the mid eighties when they reached the final (when El Tel managed Barca). Ah, great days, small boys in the park, jumpers for goalposts etc.
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May 28, 2011 at 15:35 -
Dundee United – 1987 wasn’t it?
I take it you’ve heard about Jim McLean’s witholding of the win bonus after his team had won 7-0? He was very similar to Ferguson in a lot of ways…
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May 28, 2011 at 15:02 -
Dear Lord,
Dear Lord and Father, thou art just! Look kindly on all these participants of both sides tonight and grant them all your Grace.
And lead us not into the penalty shoot out of despair!
May the Holy Spirit move upon over the pitch of Wembley like a Libero flow
And let your humble Red Devilish servants smite the heathen unholy Catalans 7-0.
Amen
Amen-
May 28, 2011 at 15:24 -
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition….
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May 28, 2011 at 15:28 -
Close – indeed, we let you use Maine Road at a peppercorn rent, and at our home games, collection buckets went round to help keep you going. The answer is not this however.
When Matt Busby signed for City, he was just about to emigrate to the States for good. Had all the relevant papers. City persuaded him to stay and play for us, and the rest is – your – history. Would all your success have happened without Sir Matt? Who knows – but I doubt it.
Munich was a defining moment for Manchester – I am old enough to recall and it and to have been shocked by it. As well as an ex City player in Sir Matt being injured, our ex goalie, Frank Swift was killed in the crash. Not long ago, I had a United fan go into all sorts of frothing about Bert Trautmann’s days in the Hitler Youth – until I told him that after Munich, Bert offered his services to all the families involved to translate, so they would make contact with the authorities in Germany. I have to say (and many older United fans agree with me on this) that United have used Munich to their won advantage at a times – a few years ago, for example, a stall flogging Man U visa cards was set up on Derby day right under the Munich memorial – City fans got them to move it. Also, United more or less abandoned the families of the players who died in the crash, to their eternal shame. The respect I had for the club as a local – you were either City or United when I was young – has pretty much gone since the Ferguson era. We all recognised Sir Matt as one of ours, and a gentleman. Ferguson is a lout. Why? I don’t know. Paisley was a gent. Shanks. Joe Mercer. Jock Stein. None of them felt the need to be an arse in public.
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May 28, 2011 at 15:34 -
I knew Sir Matt played for City. He was a gent. Didn’t know the other stuff
And Fergie could on occasions be justifiably be thus described.
My father played against Bill Shankly. He still has the 6 inch scar from Shankly’s stud down his shin to prove it.
Hard men, in those days-
June 1, 2011 at 16:44 -
Shanks. Decent servant who played for us for 13-odd years, but why the hell did we have to name a stand after him? There are far more important people in the history of North End.
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May 28, 2011 at 15:30 -
TellMeMore May 28, 2011 at 14:59
Liked your analysis of Fergie’s success and the hatred that breeds in losers, it was ever thus.//
No it wasn’t. The great Liverpool teams, or indeed, United of the late 60s, were not reviled in the way the club is now. People loath United for how the club behaves. Ferguson is not only a bad loser, he’s a bad winner as well.
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June 1, 2011 at 16:42 -
Can’t speak of the 60s teams, but the Liverpool team of the 80s certainly was! Or to be fair, they were reviled by association with the glory-hunting fans that sprang up everywhere.
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May 28, 2011 at 18:14 -
While I admire Alex Ferguson and his singleminded determination to win everything, I still cannot stand the sight nor sound of him. I remember a quote that I saw in the Spectator it was in an article about “bungs” still not sure what that means. The quote described Sir Alex as “a ruddy faced mountain of lachrimonious scottish bile” it sort of stuck in my mind.
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May 29, 2011 at 05:46 -
I am afraid Gildas the Monk will be unavailable for comments or interviews today. He has retreated into his cell with a bottle of Metaxa and won’t come out. I can’t get any sense out of him – he just keeps insisting “things have got very messy”.
I don’t know what that means, but at least I will get the ironing done. I’m sure he’ll be right as rain soon
Tra la la! -
May 29, 2011 at 14:12 -
Well, THAT was a footballing lesson for ‘Nyted. I think City are closer to United than United to Barca. And nobody for Salex to blame!
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