Who Pays the Piper?
Follow the money is a popular retort. I’ve been chasing taxpayer’s money into some very odd corners.
I’m indebted to the National Secular Society for first alerting me to something quite mysterious. Those priests you occasionally see darting along hospital corridors, on their way to administer the last rites to some poor soul; the Iman arriving by taxi to make his incantations in your local hospital’s nice new Muslim prayer room, the Vicar emerging from a chat with a lonely old lady at her bedside – I had imagined I was witnessing the true selflessness of their vocation, how they spent the hours over and above that required by the regular services in their church or mosque, an example of their dedication to the souls of their parish/whatever.
I had no idea that they too, were dipping heavily into the NHS funds! What business does the State, on behalf of taxpayers of all creeds and religions have, to subsidise the already wealthy religious organisations?
Heavily indeed! According to the Royal College of Nursing, there has been a reduction in nurse staffing of around 5,780 between May 2010 and June 2012 – yet hospital trusts continued to employ almost 500 hospital chaplains.
“Our previous research suggests that around £29m of healthcare money is used annually to pay the salaries of religious chaplains, but this sum increases when you take into consideration the upkeep of office space, chapels, prayer rooms which also come out of hospital budgets. It is time that the religious bodies stepped up to the plate and relieved the public purse of this expense.”
The Department of Health has provided funding for hospital chaplains since the foundation of the NHS in 1948. The close connection between the State and the Church of England meant that originally all posts went to Anglicans and it was assumed that the majority of patients would be Anglican. It was also deemed appropriate that a hospital should have a chapel…
Over the past 10 years, multi-culturalism has decreed that this should include a dedicated room for other faiths too. I have previously commented on my local hospital which doesn’t have room for a scanner, but has provided a large dedicated room for those of the Muslim faith.
I should make it clear that I have absolutely no problem with practitioners of all and every faith visiting hospitals to succour their disciples – but why the NHS, short of taxpayer funding as it is, should be setting aside large areas of real estate for the few ambulatory patients, or paying the salary of vicars, priests and imans, defeats me.
The taxpayer, regardless of his personal faith, already pays for religious counselling, provided on behalf of the State for certain groups of people that it is hard to argue with.
The armed forces, for instance. In order for prayers to be said in the middle of a war zone before men and women risk their lives on our behalf, it is necessary to provide a chaplain that has been trained to endure battle conditions, and is frequently risking his own life in the process, so the £22 million pounds a year that the MoD spend on supporting 280 Christian padres – of whom a full quarter cannot visit the ‘front line’ because of ‘medical issues’ – is understandable; though arguably, the Christian churches could fund this themselves.
Less easy to support is those in prison – for have they not already shown themselves unwilling to live by their tenets commandments? I can understand the religious organisations desire to be on hand for those that wish to repent their wicked past – but the estimated employment cost of the 358 directly employed chaplains is approximately £10.3 million. The 1952 Prison Act requires that there be an Anglican chaplain on hand in every prison – why?
Then we have state funded schools. As chaplains are usually employed directly by the school and funded from its budget, there are no official figures for the numbers now in the state sector. A Church of England survey gives some reliable figures for state funded chaplains; it noted that ‘… almost all are directly funded from the school’s own budget’ i.e. the taxpayer, yet again. The funding for those of other faiths is obscure.
Equally, tax payers give an estimated £42 million a year via the government, to the church to maintain their listed buildings.
Blimey, you may not pop into church on a Sunday morning and stick ten bob into the discrete velvet pouch any longer – but you are certainly dipping into your pockets with a vengeance to support the work of one of the wealthiest organisations in the world.
Note the outcry regarding taxpayers supporting wealthy banker’s bonuses…
- Ancient+Tattered Airman
July 12, 2015 at 9:57 am -
Brilliant piece, well chosen as usual Anna. How many of us were aware of this?
- Ancient+Tattered Airman
July 12, 2015 at 10:04 am -
Figures published in the Independent have revealed that NHS Trusts spent over £23 million on religious chaplaincy in the last financial year – the equivalent cost of employing 1,000 new nurses. A scandal.
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 10:04 am -
Of course it’s like this and it will continue until Dis-Establishment of the Church of England. All the time it remains the state church, the official religion (with others tolerated), it will get its grubby paws into every nook and cranny of the Establishment, all the areas you covered in your post, plus local councils, tax emptions to the treasury etc.
But everyone is too wary to raise it as a serious issue because then you start questioning the position of the Monarch, who has their position of Head of State as appointed by the good grace of Mr God, and said Monarch is also the Head of the Church of England and therefore is uniquely informed about all by Mr God. Or something like that. Move one pebble and everything comes into play.
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 10:26 am -
Additionally: “practitioners of all and every faith visiting hospitals to succour their disciples”… they are not visiting. Being a Hospital Chaplain is a full time job. (I know because a friend held the post at a major London hospital up until a few years ago… he talked about the incredible bureaucracy and accommodation that other faiths – including RCs, Islam, Sikhs, Hindus – required), which included making room in the existing chapel – difficult for those faiths that don’t tolerate religious icons…)
- Mudplugger
July 12, 2015 at 3:25 pm -
It gets its ‘grubby paws into every nook and cranny of the Establishment’ at a very high level, particularly those 26 bishops who get free seats in the House of Lords, enabling their Graces to pontificate and legislate, simply by virtue of their ‘qualification’ of having clambered up the greasy pole of their fetid organisation.
I find that even more offensive than sponsored chaplains and faith schools (but not much).
The sooner dis-establishment happens, the better – and ideally before the Caliphate takes over, that will save so much unnecessary bloodshed.- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 3:31 pm -
I agree.
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 9:16 pm -
I recall watching a round-robin discussion of Al Jazeera (or was it Russia Today?). The particpants included a chap from Indonesia (the biggest Muslim democracy in the world). The western British interviewer jumped in, feet first, complaining of the involvement of religious representatives in such countries as Iran. The Indonesian chap professed bafflement and replied that he couln’t see how the UK could make an issue of this since they too had clergy in their Parliament.
- windsock
- windsock
- David
July 12, 2015 at 10:13 am -
You are absolutely right. I attend an independent evangelical Church. Our minister would not expect a fee for visiting folk in hospital – either those from his own congregation or anyone else who was willing to accept a visit from him. This is surely as it should be. It is wrong to expect tax payers to fund such things.
- Dioclese
July 12, 2015 at 10:29 am -
I find it hard to disagree with anything you say, Anna.
I am certainly not anti-God in any way. I keep an open mind. However, the hypocrisy of church organisations knows no bounds – especially the Catholics.
How the leader of Catholicism can live in his own city state immune from the law of anywhere else and then as one of the wealthiest men in the world can step out on the balcony of his personal palace dressed in gold threaded robes carrying a priceless gold crucifix and lecture his followers on worldliness and forsaking personal wealth is totally beyond me. As I said, the hypocrisy knows no bounds. Mind you, Pope Francis is a vast improvement on the last one!
I’d have more respect for them if they used some of their countless wealth to alleviate suffering and starvation rather than spreading their version of ‘the one true word of God’ and converting heathens (i.e non catholics).
- tolkein
July 12, 2015 at 10:41 am -
This is the usual guff from the National Secular Society, I’m afraid.
Just look at the numbers for a moment.For 2013/4 the NHS in England had a budget of £95.6 billion(that’s from the NHS website http://www.england.nhs.uk/allocations). So £29m is .03% of the NHS budget. A rounding error. Do you really think the NHS would hire another 1000 (or any at all) nurses if there were no hospital chaplains? It would be spent on more diversity outreach, or planting trees to show green they were, or on inclusive training, or on junkets for senior managers.
Why shouldn’t the NHS want to pay for people to provide care and comfort to those who seek it or need it? The argument why should non Christians pay for this service can be answered as we all pay for maternity care, but at least half the population won’t have children, and of the women, not all will either. The NHS pays for a lot of specialised services that most will never use, but that doesn’t mean we stop paying for it.
I know our Church does hospital visiting, as also Prison chaplaincy, and they certainly don’t get paid. Not everybody in prison will be recidivist. Don’t we want to help those who are trying to reform? Certainly a lot cheaper than banging them up again, if they are successful. You don’t need many success cases for prison chaplaincy to be a wonderful financial bargain, never mind the comfort they can bring.
It may be that Churches get £42m from heritage for upkeep. That’s because they are Grade 1 listed (by the State) so they have got to be kept up, and not modernised. The reason why there are so many Church schools is that the Churches built schools long before the state got into the business of education. In fact, although I don’t suppose the NSS pointed this out, Church schools are a subsidy to the secular. Church schools provided the land and buildings and are responsible for 10% of the capital costs. Costs that would fall to the state if they weren’t church schools. Church schools teach the national curriculum. They are also jolly popular.
As far as the MoD are concerned are you saying that people who are in the armed forces, maybe going into combat, shouldn’t have the support of the padres? Even if you’re atheist, can’t you just see this as counselling and support for people in difficult times?
School chaplains seem a jolly good idea. Indeed, read the report linked by our gracious hostess, and think, as I did, wouldn’t it be a good idea if more schools tried to develop a coherent moral ethos.
All in all, the NSS hates Christianity, so I’m not surprised it tries to dress up the figures for maximum outrage. But really, the cost of hospital chaplains or prison chaplaincy or in schools is trivial. Was it a slow news day for them?
- Joe Public
July 12, 2015 at 10:52 am -
Agnostics & Athiests might complain that some of their taxes & National Insurance payments are being wasted.
Perhaps our cash-strapped NHS should also pay for special chaplains to administer solace to believers of …
- Pud
July 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm -
Speaking as an atheist, seeing as churches are charities and therefore pay no tax and get 25% Gift Aid on donations, I think they’re getting more than enough state help as it is without the state paying them to do their job.
Speaking as a taxpayer, even if £29m is only .03% of the NHS budget it’s worth saving and spending on clinical needs instead (not diversity outreach etc.).
Like Anna, I’m not objecting to a religious presence in hospitals, I think that if a religion wants to be there it should fund itself. If you believe, it’s very comforting to have someone of your faith when you need them. When my dad was dying following a heart attack my parents’ Baptist minister dropped what they were doing and dashed to the hospital. I could tell at the time and mum subsequently told me how comforting the minister was.
- Joe Public
- Little Black Sambo
July 12, 2015 at 10:47 am -
(“…one of the wealthiest organisations in the world.” If you mean the C of E, then that, after decades of mismanagement, is no longer true.)
Your puzzlement at the present involvement of the church in the government, schools ‘n’ hospitals and the armed forces looks disingenuous. To understand the present situation you need to look at centuries of preceding history. No modern secular-humanist would design a country like ours; that is what it means to live with ancient institutions and a slowly evolving constitution. Have you been influenced by exposure to French idealism – and are their arrangements any better? - Joe Public
July 12, 2015 at 10:47 am -
Chaplains in hospitals, prisons, war-zones. Pah!
Even Shopping Centres now have them:
“Chapel
A friendly ear – whatever’s on your mind, your Chaplain is always here to listen.
The Chapel is a quiet place of worship, away from the hustle and bustle of the shopping centre – and offers people of all religions somewhere quiet to reflect, pray or simply relax.
The Chaplaincy service is available to everyone at intu Lakeside and caters for people of all faiths and backgrounds.
Find the Chapel on Level 3 near the public toilets. It’s open throughout intu Lakeside’s normal shopping hours, so feel free to visit any time you like. Alternatively, call the Chaplaincy Office on 01708 450083.”http://intu.co.uk/lakeside/centre-information/services-and-facilities
- Alexander Baron
July 12, 2015 at 11:39 am -
Why am I not surprised that an atheist finds this offensive? It’s merely a revival of the alliance of throne and altar, although the Church does tend to be a rebellious servant nowadays. This is more interesting: https://web.archive.org/web/20150627051516/http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/DP_Sock%20Puppets_redesigned.pdf
- Mrs Grimble
July 12, 2015 at 11:53 am -
Are there any chapels/prayer rooms in hospitals etc that are only for Muslims? My experience is that, like crematoria, such places have fully detachable religious icons that can put up and taken down as required.
Oh, and as for “wouldn’t it be a good idea if more schools tried to develop a coherent moral ethos. ” That’s what every school tries to do; you don’t need a school chaplain for that, just good teachers. I went to Catholic schools where morning prayers, Religious Instruction classes and attendance at midweek mass in the school hall were compulsory; I left an atheist and only developed my own personal form of spirituality afterwards. - jim
July 12, 2015 at 11:54 am -
All thought provoking stuff. I certainly think reform of funding and systems is necessary. However we need to be careful of falling into the trap of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Its like debating whether we should invest in art or sport at school.
The state funding of religious chaplains gives a message about our values that cannot be underestimated. Whether the amount we pay and how much the churches should also contribute should be open to change. But don’t succumb to the secular bullying that seeks to destroy an important element of our culture. - The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 12:11 pm -
stick ten bob into the discrete velvet pouch any longer
Bob went the way of Ed many decades ago, you are showing your age, dear. Mind you, Aged Father-Dwarf still works in ‘Bob’ …usually with the accompanying exclamation: ” ‘Ow Much?! B-b-b that’s *insert numeral* BOB! That’s more than my first car/my first wages packet/almost as much as printer ink”
- Opus
July 12, 2015 at 12:11 pm -
Oh I don’t know. the care of my soul is very important to me, seeing how I have behaved in a very fast and loose manner with it in my time.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 12:14 pm -
I have always found hypothecation interesting. The idea that I should only pay tax for things from which I benefit directly appeals quite a bit
But when I try to work out the consequences of doing such in an advanced modern democracy, for even just a few things, the notion that the kids down the street wouldn’t be going to school, some large % of the country’s roads would be dirt tracks, the street lights going out, and a lot of you being just plain dead, doesn’t appeal too much to my Christian principles
And to moan about what is merely a few odd pennies, as Tolkein clarifies slightly more eruditely above, going to, shock! horror!, the benefit of people whose views I might not personally approve of doesn’t make me feel either egalitarian, or libertarian, particularly when it is doing them some good
- Don Cox
July 12, 2015 at 4:46 pm -
The point is that spending your tax money on general welfare does benefit you. The better educated the kids down the road are, the better the chance of having competent people running, for instance, the electrical supply system. And the less the chance that they will grow up unemployable and burgle your house.
Having other people treated in hospital, whether they are native or colonists, reduces the chance of your catching some disease or finding that some useful person has died. And so on.
There is no need to appeal to Christian principles.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 5:44 pm -
I have read that a few times and I’m not sure whether to forgive you for not understanding me, or myself for perhaps misunderstanding you, particularly as regards what you are saying about the Landlady’s main point
Are you also saying, as gently as I had intended, but from what I presume might be a secularist standpoint, that the landlady might be a bit harsh in begrudging a few bob spent in this fashion from her, your and my taxes? In which case, fine, we are both saying the same, but from different starting points
Or do you agree with her? And if you do, on what basis do you see her thinking as being rightly different from mine? If the difference isn’t based on some sort of principle, is it merely as prosaic as just a varying degree of tightfistedness, or something else?
- Ho Hum
- Don Cox
- Mike Kemble
July 12, 2015 at 12:25 pm -
Regarding dedicated rooms for ‘other religions’. I used to work in a national parcel company, night time was a noisy very busy place with hundreds of artics in and out, pallets of freight and cages of parcels whizzing from one incoming source to an outgoing source. During this time, the muslims in the fraternity decided that they had to go and pray and went to their ‘dedicated room’.
In the meantime, the infidels were frantically trying to keep up with the shortfall, especially as this so called prayer time seemed to extend beyond a reasonable time! They threatened to walk out if this preferential treatment continued.
The dedicated room was returned to its proper purpose, a first aid room, asnd any so called pray meetings were banned during working hours.
And so it should be. We are being used and abused by these people, taking advantage of our/your apathy.
- jS
July 12, 2015 at 1:02 pm -
There are also plenty of examples of “multifaith” or general “quiet” rooms being annexed by the religion to which one must submit.
As per usual, any reasonable objection is met with a mixture of victimhood whining and not so veiled threats.- Mike Kemble
July 12, 2015 at 1:42 pm -
To which one MUST submit. Not sure I understand that but, what is typed is not necessarily what is read.
- Mike Kemble
- jS
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 1:03 pm -
Broadmoor had a Chaplain who was there throughout Jimmy Savile’s supposed reign of terror. He seems to talk a lot more sense than Edwina Currie ever did, and tells a very different story to the one told by the NHS in 2014. Most dissidents in the Communist world were based around religious leaders, at least until “Solidarnosc” anyhow, but they had a sepcial Polish Papal connection at the time.
” How can Revereverend Walt’s testimony of 1992, with its account of one-to-one nursing care be reconciled with Bill Kirkup’s report of 2014? They both cannot be true accountings of the past can they. The Reverend also gives an account of the changes at Broadmoor that took place from 1988 onwards, in another book. This book was co-edited by none other than Alan Franey, who is demonised by the 2014 report.
http://jimcannotfixthis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/revving-it-up.html - Engineer
July 12, 2015 at 2:08 pm -
Hospitals can be pretty soulless places, especially when you’re seriously ill, and perhaps very scared. It seems that many clinical staff these days have little time for anything beyond the clinical, so to have some people around prepared to ‘care’ in other ways just seems right. I’ve no idea what a hospital chaplain earns, but I’ll bet it’s a fair bit less than the average nurse. Long may the NHS budget cover their cost.
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 5:24 pm -
I would guess that the primary job for the vicars is the dead people and their relatives.
If there isn’t a vicar available, who ya gonna call?
A DJ?- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 6:06 pm - Engineer
July 13, 2015 at 8:56 am -
“I would guess that the primary job for the vicars is the dead people and their relatives.”
Moor – with the greatest respect – no, it isn’t. The primary job for hospital chaplains is succour for those still alive, in (to them) a strange and perhaps frightening environment, and perhaps without anybody familiar to support them. I think chaplains extend their care to people of any religious denomination and none – they are there to care for people in a way that clinical staff sometimes can’t or won’t. The care and support they give can be beyond price to people in great distress.
It may be a perfectly reasonable argument to disagree with who funds them, but please don’t devalue the work chaplains do, and the comfort thay give to people.
- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 9:08 am -
What they say they do is interesting in terms of the order of the list.
WHAT DO WE DO?
enable and co-ordinate the ministry and mission of the Church in the care of the sick.
enable those who work in the particular and complex setting of the National Health Service to meet NHS standards of quality and professionalism by providing high quality training.
consider questions of policy and practice relating to the Church’s ministry in health care.
relate to the Department of Health, NHS Executive on chaplaincy – spiritual care issues.
liaise with Chief Executives, NHS Trusts and diocesan advisers in relation to chaplaincy – spiritual care provision.
resource the provision of Department of Health Assessors in the appointment of chaplains.
provide information and advice regarding chaplaincy issues and best practice.
offer pastoral care and advice where appropriate to health care chaplains.
http://www.nhs-chaplaincy-spiritualcare.org.uk/
- Moor Larkin
- Ho Hum
- Moor Larkin
- Stewart Cowan
July 12, 2015 at 2:27 pm -
Ah, the old National Secular Society stirring up division as usual.
Anyway, I do not represent any faith other than faith in Christ and I do not support any particular denomination, so here goes…
The churches could afford to do all this had Christianity not been under attack for the past several generations, which has seen those “velvet pouch[es]” become ever more bereft of donations.
Who is responsible? Secular humanists! The very people complaining. The very people who have been attacking our culture, values and laws and have, in the process, aided the destruction of our country through subverting our way of life because their hubris is such that, although a minority, they believe that their worldview is correct and we must all be made to comply with their beliefs.
Do you know that when the committed Christian, William Wilberforce, was spending many years getting slavery abolished in the Empire that some MPs were saying that religion should be kept out of politics? Those who had a selfish interest in keeping the slave trade alive.
It really has been a long haul to get to this stage and what do we have to show for it? We are ruled by unaccountable Marxist-Leninists in Brussels, Geneva and elsewhere and as a result. living in a country going down the drain.
I think you have it wrong this time, Anna!
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 3:09 pm -
I am all for administrations to the soul as part of the NHS, despite being one of those “Secular Humanists” who seem to irk you. I’d argue they are not a minority, as you claim, and that much has been achieved in changing out-dated laws that pandered to archaic belief.
As far as I am concerned, if people like yourself are ill, or near death, in a strange environment, then if you need familiar spiritual comfort to either cope with your pain or passing, then it is part of a “whole life” experience which the NHS at its best should seek to provide. After all, if I want freedom of thought and belief for myself, I can hardly deny that same freedom to others, even if their beliefs mystify me. My friend who worked as a hospital chaplain was often on call for 24 hours and would sometimes need to rush to see someone who had life-threatening injuries in the small hours or someone who had inconveniently had a heart attack at 5 a.m. He worked hard and I admired his dedication.
But similarly, if someone were to force their religious views upon me, I would tell them where to shove them, such as the work colleague who offered to pray for me when she discovered my health situation – I told her it would be better if she prayed for herself, as I doubted her prayers would work for an unbeliever like myself. So when offered such ministrations in hospital, I politely decline and those offering them do not press their case. It is when I am told that my beliefs are undoubtedly wrong that I get pissed off.
I think Anna is a Quaker (I’m sure she’ll correct me if I am wrong), so maybe her belief system produces the different take that she has written, so I would disagree that she is “wrong”. She has a different point of view. As I have said above, until the Church of England is dis-established, I don’t see this changing any time soon, but I doubt you would wish to see that connection cut.
To think all secularists/humanists/atheists are self-interested is to believe your own propaganda. As for being ruled by Marxist-Leninists in Brussels, you may want to have words with Yanis Varoufakis and Alexis Tsipras about that.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 3:49 pm -
I think Anna is a Quaker
Yep…it says something about The Friends that they can take a former term of abuse (‘Quaker’) , a pejorative term used by their persecutors (and they were horribly horribly persecuted) and nowadays even use it as an ‘informal’ name for themselves. Be a bit (but only a bit) like a jew describing himself as a ‘Christkiller’.
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 4:24 pm -
It’s a tactic that has been learned by many. I didn’t object when you addressed me as “queer” last week…;)
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 4:28 pm -
A tactic learned by some…not ‘many’…and certainly uncommon among religionists (the ‘Mormons’ might be another example, although the term ‘Christian’ itself is not uncontentious in origin). And ‘queer’ isn’t really a term of abuse…not like ‘old’
- The Blocked Dwarf
- windsock
- Stewart Cowan
July 12, 2015 at 8:18 pm -
Windsock,
Yes, atheists are a minority, just that empty vessels making more noise makes it seem otherwise!
The 2011 Census results was “Christian” – 59.3% and “No religion” – 25.1%.
Not that they are all really Christians, but then I believe that “atheists” are in denial, which accounts for the study which shows they are more angry with God than believers are.
“It is when I am told that my beliefs are undoubtedly wrong that I get pissed off.”
Your beliefs are undoubtedly wrong. “The fool says in his heart there is no God.”
“To think all secularists/humanists/atheists are self-interested is to believe your own propaganda.”
The militant ones who are changing society are very much self-interested, hence they have managed to radically change society so that the majority have become second class citizens.
As for “propaganda”, militant humanists are at the forefront.
“As for being ruled by Marxist-Leninists in Brussels, you may want to have words with Yanis Varoufakis and Alexis Tsipras about that.”
What better name than Marxist-Leninists for unelected, unaccountable, atheistic, collectivist control freaks?
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 8:38 pm -
“I believe that “atheists” are in denial, which accounts for the study which shows they are more angry with God than believers are.”
Non sequitur.“Your beliefs are undoubtedly wrong. “The fool says in his heart there is no God.” So go ahead, piss me off, what difference does it matter to you? If all you can do is quibble with a quote from a book that I believe largely to be bollocks, that’s hardly going to convince me is it?
“The militant ones who are changing society are very much self-interested, hence they have managed to radically change society so that the majority have become second class citizens.” Really? They are not acting in the interests of creating an egalitarian society where progress doesn’t mean belonging to a certain club of the pious? How would you know that? How are religious people “2nd class citizens”? They are not. They have freedom of religion and largely to practice it (thankfully, stoning, FGM and honour killings still being illegal in this country).
I have no problem with you believing whatever you want to. But please, stop trying to save my soul (if I even have such a thing) – it’s not your’s to save and you won’t do it by circular rambling and assertions backed up by quoting fairy tales.
- Stewart Cowan
July 12, 2015 at 9:44 pm -
You’re such a hypocrite, Windsock. You don’t want to be p*ssed off, but you sure don’t mind doing it to me. I doubt you realise how offensive you are.
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 9:56 pm -
Turning the other cheek would be the Christian thing to do.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 10:20 pm -
+1
- Stewart Cowan
July 13, 2015 at 12:01 am -
“Turning the other cheek would be the Christian thing to do.”
I have turned it, but he still needed correcting. You can do both, you know.
- Ho Hum
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 10:53 pm -
Hypocrite, how? I tell you the thing that pisses me off and then you do precisely that same thing – and I’m not supposed to react? You write provocatively and don’t want to be debated?
I’m not the one resorting to ad hominems. That Christian martyr complex of your’s is showing. If you’re seeking offence, I’m sure you’ll find it because I have the temerity to disagree with you.
- Stewart Cowan
July 13, 2015 at 12:02 am -
I’m turning the other cheek.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 2:07 am -
If I was taller I would bang both your heads together. I really hate it when two of my more favourite commentators ‘fight’, puts me off my alcohol free mead. Have you both forgotten Fat Steve’s departure so soon?
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Stewart Cowan
- Moor Larkin
- Stewart Cowan
- Pud
July 14, 2015 at 8:32 am -
A bit more detail from the 2011 census – it says “Between 2001 and 2011 there has been a decrease in people who identify as Christian (from 71.7 per cent to 59.3 per cent) and an increase in those reporting no religion (from 14.8 per cent to 25.1 per cent). There were increases in the other main religious group categories, with the number of Muslims increasing the most (from 3.0 per cent to 4.8 per cent).”.
- Moor Larkin
July 14, 2015 at 8:52 am -
Excellent fun.
“Of the foreign-born population in England and Wales nearly half identified as Christian (48%) and a fifth identified as Muslim (19%). Around 1 in 7 had No religion (14%). ”
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/ethnicity-and-religion-of-non-uk-born-population-in-england-and-wales–2011-census/rpt.htmlThis one is cool too… Imagine what that crazy Barrister (Michael Shrimpton) would have made of this…
“More than 1 in 8 foreign-born residents (13%, 949,000) classified themselves as White British. The largest group who identified as White British were German born (57%, 155,000) and over half (56%) of them arrived before 1981. “
- Moor Larkin
- windsock
- The Blocked Dwarf
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 3:42 pm -
I think you have it wrong this time, Anna!
Stuart, I’m surprised. I had you pegged on the left wing of the Reformation- maybe not ‘Urchrist’ and certainly not fist punching air Acts2:22- but clearly someone who thought the ‘rot’ started with Constantine and the ‘organised’ church, with the Church Bureaucratic rather than Militant. I would have thought that the idea of State paid Clergy would be up there with lesbian clergy for you. Be in the world not of the world etc.
If one takes Jesu’ words at face value then there is probably more chance of finding God in those toilets next to the multifaith multi denominational, sexually inclusive, politically correct beige toned hospital Chapel with the plastic chairs designed by sadists. Or does anyone think
“whenever you pray, enter into your inner room” meant the broom cupboard?.- Stewart Cowan
July 12, 2015 at 8:26 pm -
Mr Dwarf,
I agree that the State should be involved in our lives as little as possible and that includes their version of “healthcare ” and the various religious personages shouldn’t be taxpayer-funded, but I wanted to make the point that the comparatively paltry amount of money could easily have been paid by other means had the humanists not been so successful, with the help of the PTB, in dissing Christianity.
The Reformation didn’t go far enough. Fancy keeping Constantine’s “venerable day of the sun” as the day of rest.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 1:24 am -
Fancy keeping Constantine’s “venerable day of the sun” as the day of rest.
Indeed, I couldn’t agree more. Personally I will forever be indebted to the STA for helping me get into serious, theological, study and for even offering a ‘nonbeliever’ like me the chance to study theology at their own Theological College…despite my telling the nice professor exactly what I thought of E.G.White ( If memory serves “hysterical American nutjob”).
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 1:42 am -
“STA” should have read “SDA”. STA is the German abbreviation for the Seventh Day Adventists.
- Stewart Cowan
July 13, 2015 at 9:25 am -
I don’t know much about the STA/SDA, but having been a Mormon for a short time, I tread very warily when someone is hailed as a prophet, although I haven’t read much about Ellen White. That’s not to say that the gift of prophecy has been lost, but that, in the case of the Mormons, their “prophets” are demonstrably fake.
- Stewart Cowan
- The Blocked Dwarf
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Stewart Cowan
- Alex
July 12, 2015 at 5:26 pm -
“…… because their hubris is such that, although a minority, they believe that their worldview is correct and we must all be made to comply with their beliefs.”
A bit like you Christians then?
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 5:51 pm -
Really?
Give us a contemporary example in the UK of mainstream (try to stick to that please – there are loonies in every walk of life) Christians trying to force other people to comply with their beliefs. Or, say, compulsory ‘repentence and conversion’
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 5:59 pm -
To be fair, I remember a bit of a hoo-ha last year about gay marriage, in which those vociferously objecting claimed to be Christian and there is still an ongoing debate and “pushback” by those professing faith against abortion. Of course, in America, such people are even louder and their practitioners are not paid by the state.
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 6:01 pm -
Whereas those pushing against them are almost universally state-funded since they are the government…
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 6:23 pm -
Only where it is legal…
- windsock
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 6:48 pm -
True, but Christians ‘objecting’, in what is a democracy, isn’t anything like their enforcing compliance with their beliefs, is it?
But the chances of their being compelled to bake a cake seem to be pretty good.
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 7:00 pm -
Sorry Ho Hum, but I have to differ with you there.
The throwing of toys out of prams, the running off to UKIP in hitched petticoats screaming “The Horror! The Horror!” was an attempt to win the argument by compulsion, hardly reasoned debate. All this “If you have it, you’ll spoil it for the rest of us” was a hysterical self-righteous tantrum. Not that the “gay lobby” are immune to that either. But really, the illegality of two men having sex with each other was a “Christian” compulsion, wasn’t it, enforced by the state?
And the cake decision was wrong, in my opinion. There aren’r other bakers around who would be glad of the business?
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 7:39 pm -
No doubt a lot of heat, but somewhat less light, is generated by those who did just that. But who were they, and who publicised them?
From my own circles, not many evangelical Christians I know would get within spitting distance of UKIP. Never tried to find any stats on it before, but there are some here
http://www.eauk.org/church/resources/snapshot/upload/21st-Century-Evangelicals-Faith-in-Politics.pdf
Most apposite to the UKIP issue is on page 19 LOL. Otherwise the numbers intending to vote for them are pretty small too. And if you look at the rest, some of it might be surprising, compared to the common perception of what evangelicals are
As for the former illegality, I agree partly, insofar as the law was based on what many understood as the moral appropriateness of same sex behaviour. I never met anyone in my acquaintance in a number of churches who would ever have ‘grassed’ up a gay person to the police.
Most of those I have known over the years thought that this was something which should never ever have been within the criminal law system, largely because moral, behavioural, issues pertain to personal conviction as opposed to external consumption. If individual’s make their own free moral choice, and ‘compulsory ‘repentence and conversion’’ is a no no, just how can consensual, non harming, behaviour be a criminal matter?
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 7:42 pm -
Oops. Should have read as ‘external compulsion’, as opposed to being ridden with TB
- windsock
July 12, 2015 at 7:51 pm -
“But who were they, and who publicised them?”
I have to admit, no-one from my personal circle either (kind of obviously!). But I read ConservativeHome, The Spectator, The Telegraph, Archbishop Cranmer…. various websites where the commentary was exactly as I have quoted. At the last Gay Pride I managed to attend in London (prior to the marriage debate), space had been cleared near the end of the route for anti-gay protesters led by a church organisation (I can’t remember which) to heckle through a megaphone about my forthcoming trip to Hell. Again, hardly reasoned debate (but my response was to run over to the man, blow him a kiss and tell him I loved him, so no, not exactly adult there myself).
- Ho Hum
- Ho Hum
- windsock
- Moor Larkin
- Alex
July 12, 2015 at 6:46 pm -
Well a fairly recent example would be Northern Ireland. Two lots of Christians fighting against each other over dogma.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 6:50 pm -
Do you mean all those pious saints in the IRA, UDF and UDA? Christians? Well I never.
- Alex
July 12, 2015 at 7:02 pm -
Actually I was thinking about the Holy Cross school dispute. Anyway, must go I’ll be late for Evensong.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 10:19 pm -
What’s Evensong? Never been to that…
- Ho Hum
- Alex
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 7:03 pm -
Northern Ireland. Two lots of Christians
Take it from a former card carrying member of SF, your average IRA soldier was about as devout catholic as a New York Cop is Irish (Wasn’t Tone Wolfe an Anglican?). That said, most of the Orangemen I’ve known did, seem to, genuinely believe that the Pope was the devil incarnate and that blowing the legs of women and children did further God’s good work….but I’m probably biased…too many punchups with scots Orange men.
- Stewart Cowan
July 12, 2015 at 8:30 pm -
Shouldn’t “soldier” be in inverted commas? Or preceded by cowardly?
- Stewart Cowan
July 12, 2015 at 8:34 pm -
At a meeting I attended at one of Ian Paisley’s Free Presbyterian Churches, the preacher told the story of a Loyalist march in which a young man carried a banner which read, “For God and Ulster”.
“Do you believe in God?” asked the preacher.
“No,”
- Mike Kemble
July 13, 2015 at 12:50 am -
Stewart – I take great personal offence at that remark as a former soldier who did several tours in northern Ireland. How old are you? What exactly do you KNOW about the Northern Ireland troubles. I could give you a concise potted history as I was there at the time, and, although I was not ‘on the streets’ technically speaking, I did patrols, in both landrovers and helicopters, and was ‘bombed’ once. Suffice to say we were sent to to assist a corrupt police force and to protect Catholics from attacks by Protestants. Religion is a very real palpable force there. The catholics turned on us and the rest is history. PIRA did not exactly exist at that time (1969); their resurgence came about because a few psycho’s got together to play with guns and terrorist their own populace. They never actually terrorised the Portoestant E Belfast as much because there were equal Loyalists waiting for them. I lost three very dear people to those cowards in the PIRA. A bomb disposal expert who was trying to make a bomb safe so as not to endanger innocents. A very brave dog handler and his lovely alsatian dog who tripped a booby trip intended for him when trying to find a bomb. The person who planted the bomb was then safe over the border where the Dublin Goverment protected him. And a young married lad out of my own Regiment who, back home in Germany, was blown up in his car by PIRA cowards. His two young daughters and his wife were ‘lucky’ – she had gone back into the apartment as she had forgotten something. Dont you DARE call us cowards; what the hell do you know about it? My Regiment was so well trained and so good, we neve lost a soldier actuaslly in NI. The cowards in PIRA had to sneak into Germany to get one.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 1:15 am -
Uhm Mike , I think you need to reread SC’s comment, which was in reply to mine. He was implying the IRA soldiers were cowards not Crown Forces.
- Mike Kemble
July 13, 2015 at 1:19 am -
In that case I humbly apologise BUT the point is still valid. Stewart should have made his point clearer, something I am guilty of at times. They were never soldiers, they were at best people who wanted to play with guns, murderers, extortionists, and protected by the USA and Ireland governments.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 1:33 am -
they were never soldiers, they were at best people who wanted to play with guns, murderers, extortionists, and protected by the USA and Ireland governments.
SC would no doubt agree with you.
- Stewart Cowan
July 13, 2015 at 9:19 am -
Mike – as Mr Dwarf says, I was replying to his comment. I grew up with ‘The Troubles’ on the news and always felt for the soldiers who had to go over there.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Mike Kemble
- The Blocked Dwarf
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 1:12 am -
Shouldn’t “soldier” be in inverted commas? Or preceded by cowardly?
Anyone who drives a lorry load of sweating homemade-in-some-bogtrotting-kitchen explosives though a crowded city in a truck which wouldn’t pass the MOT is many things, few of them good (“murdering scum” would probably be favourite) but a coward they probably aren’t….and as the recent “What do we call a
girlgroup like ISIS? ” shows, it is usually best to refer to groups as they do themselves otherwise one very quickly just ends up pouring petrol on the funeral pyre of common sense.- Stewart Cowan
July 13, 2015 at 9:20 am -
I was thinking more of the balaclava’ed thugs sneaking into people’s houses and blowing them away in front of their family.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 12:10 pm -
I was thinking more of the balaclava’ed thugs sneaking into people’s houses and blowing them away in front of their family
Oh…sorry..didn’t realise you meant the Sassmen :p
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Stewart Cowan
- Stewart Cowan
- Stewart Cowan
- Ho Hum
- windsock
- Ho Hum
- windsock
- Daft Lassie
July 12, 2015 at 4:40 pm -
As the CoE is the established church, i.e. connected to government (however defined) one should expect its people to be on a state or quasi state payroll – that’s a benefit of establishment. The rest have no business being paid.
Add to hospitals etc, add schools (maybe, I dunno) and Universities (I do know) where the CofE padre is frankly a fifth columnist for Muslims, who take over the ‘quiet room’ and turn it into a mosque, women segregated, and the nearest lavatories converted into foot washing facilities. Incidentally, what do Muzzos do in the desert?
- Mudplugger
July 12, 2015 at 4:57 pm -
At least in some other countries the state’s contribution is more overt, letting the populace know who’s paying.
Take the case of a nation even more cash-strapped than Britain, for example Greece, where the Orthodox Church is a fully state-funded operation, which probably means all its officials, thus being civil servants, can retire aged 58 on 80% of their annual salary for life.
It’s a bugger, this austerity lark, isn’t it ?
I believe that in Germany the state acts as a virtual collecting-plate for the religions – you declare your faith and the state collects a portion of your income from your pay-slip and passes it on to your chosen sky-pixie cult. It would be fascinating is they tried that in Britain, discovering how many would suddenly become non-believers when there’s real, visible, monthly cash-deductions at stake – it’s hard enough nowadays finding any Christians still in Bradford…..- Hubert Rawlinson
July 12, 2015 at 5:54 pm -
If you dial 999 for the police in Bradford, you get put through to the Bengal fecking Lancers!
I’ll get my coat… - Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 5:59 pm -
I was shocked to learn that the Germans have to pay a levy for their version of the BBC as part of their local council taxes, so even if they don’t watch TV, they have to pay for it. Lord Birkenhead has that system in mind for the next roll-over of the BBC mandate. Vorsprung birt tecknik.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 6:05 pm -
The information has been available in one form or another in manpower stats and management accounts for almost ever and ever, amen
And, unless there has been some secret squirrel edict come out of Nutwood House of late, the Christian Hospital Chaplains are not, nor ever were, all CoE
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 6:19 pm -
I was reading that the BBC is now going to fund the free TV License for the elderly out of it’s own money, so the government has got that “welfare” off it’s books; so just because something has been that way forever doesn’t mean it has to stay that way.
- Mike Kemble
July 12, 2015 at 7:07 pm -
over 75s only
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 9:08 pm -
I hope you don’t think that I meant that anyone under the age of 75 is elderly…
Amazing though isn’t it. The government must have been giving the BBC a ton of welfare money as well as forcing the viewer to pay the License. Suddenly the BBC are having all this money-stream cut off but do they complain? Not much, instead they are saying that the new License should/will become part of general taxation.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 10:53 pm -
Have a look at the accounts
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/annualreport/pdf/2013-14/BBC_Financial_statements_201314.pdf
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 11:11 pm -
Ha! That doesn’t make much sense on its own, does it? I thought that I could cheat the system and get 2 URLs in…..
You’ll have to wait for the rest, assuming it gets past moderation….
Meantime, LMAO
- Ho Hum
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 11:00 pm -
Then have a read of
All that’s happened is that one bunch of the so and so’s decided tyhat they would give a bribe to the over 75s, they coughed up to pay for it, and when the next bunch of so and so’s realised that it wasn’t affordable, they hijacked the savings that either they, or their predecessors, had already demanded, to stop paying for it
Smoke, and mirrors
You almost sound like you believe that
https:
//
http://www.youtube.com
/
watch?v=obJygNaMY3s- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 7:38 am -
* You almost sound like you believe that *
I was clever enough to unravel your link at least….Let’s take a look at what the BBC did. The government said to them that they must fund the License for the Over-75’s. Now, normally the default position of the BBC is to squeal about under-funding and cuts, but what happens instead is that they enthusiastically acquiesce.
Now, two things might happen next. One is that the BBC, forced to make cuts, will change it to the over-80’s only. After all, since nobody is retiring in the future until they are 75, this seems perfectly reasonable… But that hardly sounds like the BBC way does it.
The second is that when the next Mandate comes round, the government will decree that for reasons of economy and efficiency the BBC will in future be funded direct from taxation. Statistics reveal that only criminals and a few weirdo’s do not pay their license fee anyway, and the costs of the Fee bureaucracy are unjustifiable in this context. The head-honchoes at the BBC are clearly on a promise, and it’s not just for a few ciggies…
- Moor Larkin
- Mike Kemble
July 13, 2015 at 12:54 am -
The BBC are funded by a compulsory licence fee of over £100 per person per year. If all the people said NO! enough! they would be able to do nothing. They are also funded directly from the EU which makes them a bought and paid for EU Voice, and their news items reflect this. I do not even watch the stinking biased Corporation, but I still have to pay, by law. It may be decriminalised soon, but I am not holding my breath.
- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 2:29 am -
I’m curious about their being ‘funded directly from the EU’.
By how much, please, and where is it disclosed in their published accounts?
- Mike Kemble
July 13, 2015 at 3:00 am -
BC is funded to the tune of £22m per year. The informastion came from Government sources a few weeks ago. I found oiut just before the general election in which I was a council candidate. (came 3rd out of 6)
- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 4:45 am -
OK, done some homework
For a start, the £22.4m was OVER 7 YEARS That’s not quite so monumental, is it? Anyway… to the detail
UKIP Publicity:
‘UKIP Deputy Leader Paul Nuttall MEP has today written to Lord Hall, Director-General of the BBC, pointing out that the corporation does not disclose in its coverage of the EU the tens of millions of pounds which it receives from the European Commission: “An examination of the European Commission’s website discloses that between 2007 and 2013 the BBC received €30.2m, approximately £22.1m, from the commission. Millions more have been paid since.”
UKIP’s Financial Affair’s spokesman Steven Woolfe MEP website – under the heading
‘We must look at what a £22m bung from the EU has done at the BBC’
“BBC bias in favour of the EU ‘project’ has been obvious for years. However, figures on the Financial Transparency website of the European Commission now indicate just how deeply the BBC benefits from the goodwill of the EU elite. Between 2007 and 2013 the BBC was paid more than £22m by the European Union.”
“These funds are not identified as EU money in the BBC’s annual report.”
“This is not the only fraud in BBC news coverage. Current affairs programmes often interview allegedly independent ‘experts’ on EU issues without mentioning the ‘experts’ receive funding from EU institutions.”
The BBC received from the EU, by year:
2007 €1,943,146
2008 €6,336,295
2009 €3,498,043
2010 €6,034,385
2011 €354,954
2012 €5,269,083
2013 €6,744,151Total: €30,180,057 (£22,382,997 at exchange rate Feb 18, 2015)
So far, so good, you might think…….
But let’s have a look at the EU Financial Transparency System, Let’s take 2013 as an example
2013 MedMedia: towards media sector reform in the Southern Mediterranean region 4,975,000 €
BBC MEDIA ACTION LBG*BBC MA United Kingdom
2013 Consolidating Media Freedoms in Iraq 1,125,987 €
BBC MEDIA ACTION LBG*BBC MA United Kingdom
2013 Shaping the future of Syria’s Media by promoting independent voices and fostering constructive debate 643,164 €
BBC MEDIA ACTION LBG*BBC MAAnd I looked back a couple of years, and it was this same BBC MEDIA ACTION LBG gettin the dosh
So what is BBC Media Action LBG?… Just look up it up. They are even to be found on the BBC website, so it doesn’t seem much of a secret….
‘BBC Media Action is the BBC’s international development charity’
‘BBC Media Action is the BBC’s international development charity. We use the power of media and communication to help reduce poverty and support people in understanding their rights. Our aim is to inform, connect and empower people around the world.
We work in partnership with broadcasters, governments, non-governmental organisations and donors to share reliable, timely and useful information. Our projects reach over 200 million people in 28 countries and are made up of debate shows, dramas, radio and TV programmes, public service announcements, mobile phone services and face-to-face communication.
We also provide mentoring and training for journalists and development professionals. An extensive research and evaluation process underpins all that we do; it strengthens our work, helps us to evaluate impact and reach and increasingly contributes to the exchange of ideas in the policy sphere. Our overarching goal is to help people make sense of events, engage in dialogue and take action to improve their lives. ‘
So where’s the ‘bung’ gone to? It’s sort of easy to find out. Quite well written too
‘Where we work
Our work reaches over 200 million people in 28 countries across the world.
We’ve enabled Kenyans to question their leaders on TV and radio, produced an inspiring radio show made for and by the young people of Burma, and given health workers in the poorest parts of India life-saving training on their mobile phones.
We also support journalists and broadcasters around the world – through face-to-face training and mentoring and through our online platform, iLearn.
In Africa, we currently work in: Ethiopia, Kenya, Liberia, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Sudan, Tanzania and Zambia.
In Asia, we currently work in: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Burma, Cambodia, China, India, Indonesia, Nepal, Pakistan, Vietnam.
In Europe and the Caucasus, we currently work with journalists and TV stations from: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, The Russian Federation and Ukraine.
In Middle East and North Africa, we currently have projects and work with journalists in: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestinian Territories, Syria, Tunisia.
For a full list of countries where we have run projects, look at our Africa, Asia, Europe and the Caucasus and Middle East and North Africa pages.’
Funny that. I don’t see the UK mentioned there once…..
And what’s this about ‘non disclosure’. Well, it’s not part of the BBC is it, It’s a separate charity. The name gives a great big f****** clue, doesn’t it?
BBC Media Action Limited By Guarantee
Now, as any fule kno, charities are separate entities, registered with the Charity Commission and have separate, independent, accounts, so you might have thought that these allegators, is that an appropriate name? could have tried looking at…
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/SIR/ENDS35/0001076235_SIR_20130331_E.PDF
…wouldn’t you? And what’s this half way down page 4? Oh yes…we get grant money from the European Union. For specific charitable activities, nonetheless…
And you can even find their accounts on the Charity Commission Website too, which spell out in even more detail what the money was used for. If you care to look, I don’t think that you’ll find that too of it sounds like it’s going into ‘The Clandestine Fund for the Great Deception of Right Thinking British People’
Now, as I don’t believe that those people making these statements are as thick as not be able to find for themselves what took me 15 minutes to do, less time than it took to type it up, from here it looks more like just another piece of unhinged political humbug of the sort that emanates from the offices of every single one of our bunch of political shysters around about election time.
The strange thing is that they never mentioned the money that did go directly to the BBC itself, but then it was for boring technical projects and they might have looked silly objecting to those, mightn’t they?
Please don’t take my style of writing as any criticism of you. It certainly isn’t intended as such. I assume that you’ve no reason to believe otherwise. I just try to get a bit of fun in pounding out my diatribe, because probably no-one else will … LOL
But, as the good lady wisely said at the outset, “Follow the Money” , and remember, there are many false prophets in the world
- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 4:47 am -
And here’s the Charity Commission main page for them. You can click through to the accounts and documents yourself if you can bear the boredom of prose that is even more turgid than mine
- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 7:44 am -
The BBC funded the Eurovision Song Contest in 1974 when it was held in Brighton I have read recently… just goes to show how far behind I’ve got with my news-reading…. …. Eurovision was de-facto a jointly-funded palaver of the various nations’ state broadcasters, jointly-funded = jointly paying for obviously. Money has to come from somewhere; even the Greeks are being forved to recognise that fact; so it’s not hard to see that the EU bureaucracy would have shoe-honed its way into the cultural life of the Continent.
£22M might be just enough to cover Dame Smith’s Savile Report, so kerrrching!!
- Ho Hum
- Mike Kemble
- Ho Hum
- Ho Hum
- Moor Larkin
- Mike Kemble
- Moor Larkin
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 6:20 pm -
I believe that in Germany the state acts as a virtual collecting-plate for the religions – you declare your faith and the state collects a portion of your income from your pay-slip and passes it on to your chosen sky-pixie cult
Indeed it does, unless they have changed the laws recently. If you are a member of any of the major Xian churches then something like 1% of your pay packet goes to that church. By the same token you are then entitled to use the services -weddings, funerals etc . You can ‘leave’ the church and be exempted from the tax. Not sure how it works for the non-Xian abrahamics.
When I first went to live and work there I made the mistake of filling in the ‘Religion?’ box of the Tax Registration form. My first payslip brought a couple of surprises…one of them being that I appeared to be paying for the renovation of St.Peter’s…although why The Holy Father thought my mite would make all the difference was beyond me. I didn’t even get an Absolution for my 6 DM contribution to the Holy See, so felt cheated. Dunno how many days off Purgatory six marks bought but , you know what they say, every little….
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 6:24 pm -
I meant “Indulgence” not “Absolution” *spares you all the ‘free Ed’ whinge*
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 6:26 pm -
It was you wot told me… but I checked it out before I completely believed you…
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Little Black Sambo
July 13, 2015 at 5:43 pm -
“Sky-pixie cult”! Gosh, that’s witty. I’ve never heard that one before.
- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 5:48 pm -
Blue Oyster Cult weren’t progressive enough, maaaan.
- Moor Larkin
- Hubert Rawlinson
- Mudplugger
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 5:06 pm -
All the mention of Sky Pixies does beg the quesion of why the NHS is funding folk such as the satanic abuse witchypoo and her ilk. I wonder how many more of her there are lurking in the shrubbery… The anus dilating doctor is another who is still funded by the glorious Reich. Seems to me that what’s sauce for the gods should be sauce for the demi-gods. At least the vicars accept it’s all in your head.
- Alex
July 12, 2015 at 5:42 pm -
Bloody hell Anna, I wondered where all the Christians had gone, it appears that a lot of them are your regulars – who would have thought it? I fear you’ve touched a few raw nerve endings today. Still seeing as they’re Christians I’m sure they’ll forgive you.
As for the jist of your post, I’m afraid I agree. I know that annoys you, but that’s just the way it is. Personally I have no religious faith or belief.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 5:58 pm -
Don’t you expect Christians to be concerned about the Landlady’s recurrent themes of the denigration of justice, the curtailment of individuals’ freedoms and liberties and so on? Or do you just subscribe to the weird notion that we’re in the position we are now after centuries of their being the people who were doing that, and now out to make things much worse?
- Alex
July 12, 2015 at 6:43 pm -
Anybody can do that, you don’t have to be a Christian. You are probably familiar with the views of the late Christopher Hitchens, and maybe aware that he oftenposed Christians the question “name one thing you can do as a Christian that I cannot do as an atheist” – he always contended that no Christian was ever able to give him a meaningful answer. I’m sorry I don’t understand your second question.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm -
How about “I can see how a response relates to the original question”?
For the avoidance of doubt, no further reply is needed
- Ho Hum
- Alex
- Ho Hum
- English Pensioner
July 12, 2015 at 6:43 pm -
Historically, I imagine that Chaplains for schools and hospitals resulted from the fact that originally both establishments were run by the Church. Nuns often tended the sick and hence the use of the word “sister” in hospitals. The Victorian era schools were generally Church schools and the local vicar would help with the teaching. Our old Universities were closely connected with the Church and the colleges all have their chapels.
Locally, the Rector of the Parish Church is ex-officio one of the governors of the local Church school and clearly gets involved like any other governor. The schools locally have services in the Church when necessary. I’ve no idea whether the schools pay for the privilege. Our two local hospitals no longer have any Chaplains, but I know that both the Rector and the Curate make frequent hospital visits, particularly if a member of the congregation is in hospital. The arrangements seem to work to most people’s satisfaction but I wonder how long it will be before someone demands change. - Jonathan Mason
July 12, 2015 at 6:51 pm -
The main role of hospital chaplains is dealing with the bereaved. They can give someone a hug or say a prayer with them in a way that a social worker or doctor cannot due to professional rules, etc. No one else wants this role, so leave them to it. They also work Sundays without extra pay.
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 9:18 pm -
* They can give someone a hug *
Only an idiot would do that in the modern NHS. - Little Black Sambo
July 13, 2015 at 5:46 pm -
Nobody has mentioned the chaplains’ ministry to nurses and doctors. Patients come and go but they are always there.
- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 5:50 pm -
“Patients come and go….”
Yup, I can imagine that’s just how things are in the glorious Reich…
- Moor Larkin
- Moor Larkin
- Hubert Rawlinson
July 12, 2015 at 6:55 pm -
Who Pays the Piper? I think that Who Pays the Ferryman is the more worrying question, or rather How do we Pay the Ferryman? Does he take plastic? PayPal? Travellers Cheques? Can we pre-book? Well no more such worries now with the Over 50’s Death Cover from Charon Insurance. For as little as £4 a month you can get a priority booking on the Stygian Ferry, you can’t get this level of cover for less. There’s no forms to fill out, no medical and no waiting around on the banks of the Styx with all those dead people! There’s a free pen just for enquiring, take out the policy and you’ll receive this charming Carriage Clock etc. etc. etc….
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm -
- Hubert Rawlinson
July 12, 2015 at 7:15 pm -
Hades would seem like an upgrade from Liverpool me thinks! Perhaps Liverpool is, in fact, Tartarus!!!
- Hubert Rawlinson
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 7:07 pm -
You are talking about the doctors…… You are, aren’t you?
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Hubert Rawlinson
July 12, 2015 at 7:31 pm -
I heard that one way to pay the fare was to put Charon’s Obol in your mouth! I’ve never heard it called that before!!!
- binao
July 12, 2015 at 7:39 pm -
This isn’t just about the money, which no doubt is no more than a whisper of the total nhs budget.
It’s about the privileged position of all faiths in our society – and while I’m well aware of the role faiths play from baptism, confirmation if you’re captured, marriage & death, I think people get their religion cheap.
No tithes or zakat.
Religion is surely a matter of personal choice- I can’t see any reason for subsidy or tax breaks. I’m sure a skilled & caring priest can help with the harrowing situations that can happen in hospital, but those skills don’t have to be hooked in to a faith.
Perhaps all the faiths could club together to provide hospital support from a non religious professional?- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 7:46 pm -
You mean like some sort of counsellor who can help put all the false bad memories back in the bottle, so people can then die happy?
Sorry, it’s late and the SOH gets a bit out of hand when I’m tired….
- Ho Hum
- Mike
July 12, 2015 at 7:51 pm -
Dear Anna
For the first time (I think) I must take issue with you, in this case regarding military chaplaincy. I can only speak about the navy, my own service, and from my time as a naval medical officer.The chaplain (padre to everybody) holds no rank, Queens Regulations actually say that he/she should be assumed to hold the rank or rate of whoever they are talking to. They perform a vital function, they can talk to anyone, including the captain of a ship, or his admiral, and the troops (sorry, naval parlance, the employees) know it. Yes, they provide a spiritual function for those who want and need it (for me, a defaulting Anglican, the best chaplain I remember and with whom I spent quite a few hours over a spiritual/social problem, was a Jesuit and in faith terms they don’t come much harder than that).
When things looked a bit harder, the chaplain was a key person in any ship. If you look at WW1 histories, the same applies to army chaplains. Sorry Anna, MoD chaplains to my mind, based on my experience are worth every penny and a lot more.Mike
- JimS
July 12, 2015 at 8:01 pm -
When I was 17 I went into hospital.
Going to church wasn’t something I was in to. We had been taken to Mum’s C of E church and wriggled too much. We had been taken to Dad’s Presbyterian church, but always took too long to get ready. So by 17 I was pretty much excused, or considered to be too much trouble.
Meanwhile my mum had taken to looking after the local curate’s puppy dog while he was on call so he became a regular visitor.It seemed natural to him to call in on me outside visiting hours (religious privilege). Of course my mum had told her vicar, so he called too. Naturally Dad had alerted his minister, but he was on holiday, so his substitute called, followed by the minister on his return.
Following this (repeated) procession of ‘men of the cloth’ the Irish Roman Catholic ward sister marched up to my bed and said sternly, “Your not dying you Know!”.
If only I had thought to call on the chaplain too!
- Ancient+Tattered Airman
July 12, 2015 at 9:32 pm -
The Christians were once rather keen on burning people at the stake. The secular tend not to approve of this.
- Moor Larkin
July 12, 2015 at 9:55 pm -
Religion does tend to become embroiled in politics. I doubt anyone was ever burned without the express approval of whatever political power was extant at the time. One reign saw cathoics being burned, the next reign it was Protestants, but all of that related to the disputes over who really ran this country – the Monarch, or the Pope. Let’s not forget that the Church of England only exists because a certain King declared it would be so, and anyone who got in the way would be butchered, inclusing his wives. It’s hard to view Henry VIII as a religious force because he was pure power politics.
- Ho Hum
July 12, 2015 at 11:59 pm -
My recollections are that it was some of the Christians of the day who were instrumental in stopping the likes of Matthew Hopkins and his followers, both at home and abroad, who, by all accounts, sound as if they had more in common with tabloid proprietors, their editors and readers, than any sort of Christianity in which loving one’s neighbour as oneself played any part.
Nor, for that matter, did these feeble minded groupies seem to exhibit the sort of caution enjoined by Christ himself, in the notion that his followers should ‘not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world’, to the extent that they were as wise as just stand up and yell ‘This is Bollocks!’
I’d bet that you could round up a mob today to burn people at the stake, but they wouldn’t be Christians either.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 2:17 am -
any sort of Christianity in which loving one’s neighbour as oneself played any part.
Actually a lot of the burners felt , nay genuinely believed, that they were indeed loving their neighbour by burning them at the stake. May seem F**Ked to us but it was the case. I remember reading that often those about to suffer a fiery immolation (almost always at the secular arm) were offered one last chance to repent and if they did confess their sin would then be ‘blessed’ in God’s bountiful mercy with the relatively quick death of the garotte instead of being burned.
- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 3:14 am -
Relative to the levels of general literacy and common understandings of the time – we’re still, then, only about 100 years post Tyndale – you make a very fair point. But as every -ism seems happy to punish those who deviate from its ‘truth’, even to the point of executing them, as well as breeding a whole bunch of similar psychopaths to lead the administration of their ‘justice’, while I have no reason to expect otherwise of those, the witch hunts and such like were still a bit divergent from the main thesis of New Testament Christianity
But in general principle, I still don’t see them as much different from today’s tabloid owners, their editors and readers who seem to be equally happy to stir up mobs, who mercifully cannot necessarily exercise their froth, to believe that stringing up [somebody, somewhere, by the goolies, for anything and everything of which they do not approve] is the way to cure all the ills of the world as they, in whatever passes for their version of received orthodoxy, perceive them to be.
And, possibly more worryingly, the only difference that one can sometimes perceive might be that our latter day rabid, baying mobs seem to wish to see everlasting damnation and punishment, no justification, repentance or redemption allowed
- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 9:35 am -
This is great, I hope it’s true. So perfectly English…
“Burning at the stake in public was used in England & Wales to punish heresy for both sexes and for women convicted of High Treason or Petty Treason. Men who were convicted of high treason were hanged, drawn and quartered but this was not deemed acceptable for women as it would have involved nudity…. ”
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/burning.html
- Ho Hum
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Moor Larkin
- AndyM
July 13, 2015 at 12:04 am -
Anna
I have sat quietly in the corner of your bar for a couple of years. I have enjoyed the conversations , but
only occasionally joined in. I’m afraid I disagree so vehemently with you on this one that I shall drink in another bar for a month or two. I wish you andthe other regulars well, but for now it is good bye. Today, a ninety year old was taken ill during our morning service. She is still in our local hospital – thankfully recovering. She was accompanied for 6 hours by one of our pastoral assistants, and then by my wife. The spiritual and moral support given by people such as these, and the regular chaplains, is of inestimable benefit. You can not always equate a pound spent on physical care with a pound spent on such support. And, of course, even though I am taking my custom elsewhere, I forgive you.- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 12:18 am -
- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 12:20 am -
Oops! Apologies to the landlady, should I maybe have pre-empted what is, after all, her call
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 12:54 am -
I’m sure the Landlady regrets the loss of any regular, even those she’d personally rather drank elsewhere…like Wales. It would be a boring pub if we never disagreed with each other and her….and I’m sure she’d be the first to admit that Andy M had a valid point, namely that there are some things that you can’t measure in tekels and shekels.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Ho Hum
- Cascadian
July 13, 2015 at 3:04 am -
Although I am finding the many side conversations fascinating, you will not find that the landlady disagrees with pastoral care in the hospitals or other public places. The question she posed was whether this is a good use of the NHS budget, particularly when essential features like diagnostic suites are being excluded from hospital construction (to the detriment of all faiths)
Your contribution is thoughtful, and it would be our loss if you departed. Please reconsider.
- Mike Kemble
July 13, 2015 at 3:10 am -
I am a newbie when it comes to this area. A friend of mine has been sneding in emails to me, copied from Anna, for al ong time. I own an army forum, we discuss but dont argue, we fall out but dont lose friends. I own a facebook army group too, differences of opinion are rife, but we are all comrades.
So why in here, is there so much aggro? Cant you discuss without insult, talk without name calling? I am not a genius, not a debater and certainly not University educated. But I do have opinions. Some of you I suspect are just keyboard warriors, fit to fight but from a distance. If I drop one (mistake) then I accept a person being somewhat of a critic, but I cannot stand a stranger, possibly thousands of miles away, or next door, hiding behind a keyboard and throwing insults.
Come on people, grow up, have an opinion, but when someone else does not agree, dont throw the word bigot around, it works both ways you know? I am 66 next month, and not much longer for this planet BUT only now do I realise just how short life actually is!
- Ho Hum
July 13, 2015 at 5:17 am -
You’re right, there can be a problem
Years ago, Solomon wrote that a wise man overlooks an insult. Over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion that there are, probably amongst others, two really good reasons for doing so. First, no insult might have been intended – how often do you see people square up over nothing? Secondly, if it was, you don’t get down in the gutter with the one casting it. Nowadays, I’d add third. You don’t feed the trolls.
On forums like this, the written word can be lethal. It just doesn’t do emotion well, in spite of no end of the sad and smiley faces culled from children’s potato fries or /emotes scrawled in between the paragraphs. It doesn’t do meaning too well either. I always end my personal letters saying that I trust that this reached you there conveying the content with the same intent with which it left me here.
I’ve been shocked more than once by a vitriolic response to something I’ve written which, had it been understood as intended, or had the recipient actually have been able to have seen and heard ‘me’ ‘say it’, would probably never have come about. And when the people who do know you tell you that your sense of humour is often one best expressed, not in the telling of the joke, but in later explaining it, trying to be funny in a place like this often misses the mark spectacularly too.
In the rough and tumble of discussion, it can be tough to remain personally detached and objective. Some can’t, and probably there is nothing is much going to change them, other than those who can, doing.
Now to run, before the brickbats fly in for my being preachy…
- Moor Larkin
July 13, 2015 at 7:48 am -
@Mike Kemble
I’ve just done a word-search on this page and the only place the word bigot appears is in your comment….66 and not much longer for this planet? Have you got cancer too?
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 13, 2015 at 11:02 am -
but I cannot stand a stranger, possibly thousands of miles away, or next door, hiding behind a keyboard and throwing insults.
Uhm weren’t you the one who only a couple of hours ago was insulting the brave boys and Sons Of Irish Mothers, the volunteers who risked their lives in the struggle for freedom and , unlike yourself, weren’t paid for it? I just can’t stand former paid murderers hiding behind a keyboard and throwing insults….mind you I can understand your sour graping cos you got your arses kicked by a bunch of taigs and the IRA won.
BEFORE you reply, I AM kidding. Somewhat.
My point is, if you want to feel at home in this here pub, you will have to get used to the idea that some of us don’t consider being paid to carry a gun a virtue, that there is nothing morally superior to being an actual warrior as opposed to a keyboard one (and these days, a Hi-Speed Broadband connection is far more deadly than my Hi-Power ever was…ask any Afghan villager). Lot of different opinions here on every subject.
fit to fight but from a distance as opposed to being right close up…looking through a telescopic sight or a drone monitor screen?
- Ho Hum
- Mike Kemble
- Ho Hum
- Ms Mildred
July 13, 2015 at 8:58 am -
Strange why religion stirs up passion. Money too, come to think of it. I can understand Anna being upset that a crucial service is relegated to a mobile van, however up to date, while money is spent in other parts of the service on a form of counselling . I use set prayers , Lords and a psalm when I have grave concerns, a port in a storm, especially over the last 6 years. I do not go to church. I dislike bullying none believers as much as I dislike violent and nasty believers. We probably have genes somewhere to worship something, if only money and celebrity currently. What are all those wonderful drawings all about on rocks and in caves?
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