Ebola, those 'selfless volunteers', and Our Nationalised NHS.
The hottest political football of the day has to be the NHS, or ‘Our NHS, wonder of the world’. [Edited to add: It was, until we had ‘Cartoons to die for’.]
Indeed, the NHS did rank ‘top’, as the ‘best in the world’ – so long as you, as the media gleefully did, refer to a survey from the private US think tank ‘Commonwealth Fund’ which merely compared 11 different health systems in developed countries; should you refer to the World Health Organisation, which includes responses from all countries in the world, you will meet a different picture:
In its most recent major study of global healthcare systems, the World Health Organisation ranked France as best in the world. And France has the fewest healthcare-preventable deaths among 16 OECD nations. According to US think tank the Commonwealth Fund, France performed best on mortality amenable to healthcare. This is the best measure we have of how effective a health system is at saving lives, and judges the number of premature deaths that should not occur with effective and timely care. Britain had the second highest number of these deaths per 100,000 people, beating only the US.
Still, what do facts matter when there are headlines to be written? Perhaps they meant that the NHS is the ‘best in the world’ to be employed by – and were not concerning themselves with patient outcomes?
When the NHS was launched in 1948, it had a budget of £437 million (roughly £9 billion at today’s value). For 2012/13, it was around £108.9 billion.
There are a thumping 1,203,519 people employed by the NHS – only half of whom are clinically qualified – a mere 370,327 are nurses. Back in 1974, nurses went on strike for the first time, and not just on strike, but engaged in an ongoing media campaign to raise the profile of the ‘angels of the NHS‘ that eventually joined forces with the burgeoning ‘feminist’ movement, seeking a higher profile for women, more concessions for women regarding child care, and higher wages.
Since those days, and the success of that media campaign, we have been groomed to instantly think of ‘those poor nurses’ whenever we hear of ‘Jeremy Hunt to veto 1% pay rise for NHS workers‘. We don’t waste a second’s thought as to whether the 600,000 people variously wandering around at snails speed in ‘Our NHS’, cutting the grass, calculating the profit on the car parking arrangements, or moving boxes of files from one end of the hospital to the other, are actually worth their wages, or will even result in grandpa’s early death if they don’t get a pay rise – we are transfixed by the perils implicit to ‘those poor nurses’.
That PR campaign continues today – back in September we heard that the ‘NHS was calling for volunteers’ to go to Sierra Leone to ‘fight the Ebola virus’. The media gorged itself on pictures of pretty young western nurses who had volunteered to enter the deadly contaminated districts and risk their lives nursing people with Ebola.
Let me be the first to say that I wouldn’t volunteer to go to Sierra Leone to man a ticket desk at the airport, nor would I volunteer to wipe old ladies bottoms in an English cottage hospital – so don’t waste your breath telling me that I wouldn’t do what they are doing – of course I wouldn’t.
What I am interested in is the PR angle that the media are spinning – not least because one of those highly trained, expensively protected behind high tech gear, nurses, is currently seriously ill with an Ebola that we are told is ‘almost impossible’ for a normally dressed English person sitting next to a victim on an aeroplane to catch. Why is it so important that we ‘buy’ this image of the little English rose venturing selflessly into darkest Africa?
“It’s been phenomenal, it’s very moving. Dame Sally Davies, [chief medical officer for England] was at one of our events for volunteers this week and it was clear she was very moved by the people coming forward,” Redmond said.
While there remains clearly a risk of staff catching Ebola, “healthcare professionals are trained at managing risk, respect their colleagues and are most comfortable following protocols and they trust themselves and their colleagues to do that”.
In my search for some genuine figures behind the media onslaught, I have come up with some interesting facts.
First – we are sending ‘up to 800’ highly trained healthcare professionals, all of whom hold full time contracts with the NHS. Indeed, UK-Med which is co-ordinating the NHS response, will only accept you if you do! No part time staff, no one on ‘gardening leave’, no one on a temporary contract, no one ‘between jobs’ or coming out of retirement – they only want 800 of the NHS’s finest.
Those personnel will continue to receive their full time salary from the NHS – or rather the taxpayer – including all pension benefits etc. , which is only right and proper; they will be treated in exactly the same way as the highly trained nurses who remain behind and, er, treat Ebola patients in the UK – who won’t be lauded in the media as ‘selfless volunteers’ with its connotations of unpaid labour.
Professor Tony Redmond, Head of UK-Med said:
The actions of these selfless volunteers in going and the actions of their colleagues and managers to release them and cover for their duties is testimony if ever there was to the altruism that lies at the core of the NHS. I am very proud of them all”.
The work they would have been doing in the UK will be done on the basis of ‘backfill’ – an interesting word which means their colleagues will be covering for them, via overtime, and the Department for International Development will cover the cost of this. Who are the selfless colleagues doing extra overtime?
The hospital and community health service statistics provide a country-by-country breakdown that puts the issue in context. In September 2013, 567 Sierra Leonean health staff were working in the NHS, of which 347 were professionally qualified clinical staff.
{On the other hand} – Sierra Leone, as my hon. Friend the Member for York Central said, has about 136 doctors and just over 1,000 nurses for 6 million people.
How many of the eligible professionally qualified 347 Sierra Leonean clinical staff are amongst our 800 ‘selfless volunteers’ – if anyone knows the answer to that one, I would dearly love to hear from them.
What about the conditions these nurses are working in? They are flying out to the brand new 62 bed British built treatment centre in Kerry Town – only 50 of whose beds are for Sierra Leone – the other 12 beds are reserved in case any of the nurses fall sick. How did that treatment centre get to be there?
Courtesy of the Royal Engineers, who were just doing their job, arriving in this deadly area without the benefit of specialist training or two week induction courses, or even specialist clothing – and told to get on with the job of building a hospital from the ground up. They don’t get any laurels from the media.
Much was made of RFA Argus being sent out to the region with its ‘state of the art’ medical centre on board – but it seems the personnel of 22 Field Hospital Unit, would have to make do with the allegedly non-existent and unsatisfactory local hospitals should any of them be unfortunate enough to catch Ebola.
Although many might think the 100 bed medical complex will be used for treating Ebola patients, this is not the case, the medical facilities will only be used for injuries and non Ebola illness. If any personnel contract Ebola they will be treated ashore.
Just doing their job see, not ‘selfless volunteers’.
Last but not least, we should at least mention those other selfless souls, though like the army, they are scarcely volunteers – the patients queuing up to be treated in an NHS which is ‘understaffed, under pressure, and under funded’.
The British Medical Association (BMA) warned there was “unprecedented levels of pressure” on the health service and the Royal College of Nursing said the system was in “crisis,” blaming chronic underfunding and staffing shortages.
Seems to me that the only people suffering deprivation for no reward, surely the definition of ‘selfless volunteers’, are the patients left behind in the UK, wondering why the ‘envy of the world’ isn’t quite living up to their expectations whilst they languish on a trolley outside A & E.
- @ricardo_bald
January 9, 2015 at 9:57 am -
The Ebola infected ‘nurse’ is nothing but a selfish glory hunter.
And it seems there are nurses and there are nurses. Her job description, according to the Scottish Gummint, is nothing but prodnose nannying.
I have no sympathy for her.
- Engineer
January 9, 2015 at 10:08 am -
That’s harsh, blinkered and really rather vile. She didn’t have to go to Africa, she volunteered. Maybe her work in Africa was of more value to mankind than her normal, humdrum, ‘prodnose nannying’; it was certainly a far greater personal risk to her. It is very much to her credit that she went, and like most thinking people, I hope she recovers from her illness.
I do have sympathy for her.
- JuliaM
January 9, 2015 at 11:12 am -
“…it was certainly a far greater personal risk to her.”
Not if she’d obeyed the restrictions and not simnply discarded her protective gear because ‘they are so friendly and tactile’. I guess nannying is for others to obey, not her.
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 9, 2015 at 11:22 am -
“‘they are so friendly and tactile’”
Dear Sweet Jesus wept! I haven’t followed the details of the story but please tell me that a trained Nurse couldn’t be that stupid?!
BREAKING NEWS: Villagers’ FURY at Earth Tremors in East Wellow, Hants. Caused by rotating Nightingdale corpse.
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 11:25 am -
“Dr Deahl said: “I would bet anything that she caught this while out in the community. I went to church myself on Christmas morning and I have no doubt Pauline probably contracted the virus doing something similar.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11317226/Ebola-in-Scotland-Hero-nurse-Pauline-Cafferkey-spoke-movingly-of-saving-lives.htmlThe same article seems to indicate that the nurse was well aware of, and obeyed, the clinical “no touch” rules.
- JuliaM
January 9, 2015 at 11:40 am -
That same article: “”We had a rule known as ABC which stood for Absolute no Body Contact but when you are in the community it is difficult to stick to the rules and easy to become complacent. It is also difficult when children come up to you and hug you.” “
If her suit wasn’t compromised, then how else, other than by this method, would she contact this virus?
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 11:53 am -
Well, clearly if both she and this Dr. Deahl were attending church services without breaking the rules, then the rules appear to tolerate a level of risk. This might relate to ‘carriers’, those biologically immune themselves but who have lots of the agent about their person. The US nurse similarly infected seems to tell a very similar story to the UK one and to have had the same suspicions directed at her. She looks to be a religious person too.
“She became the second person known to have contracted Ebola in the United States, and the second nurse from Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital Dallas to get the virus after caring for an Ebola patient.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/06/health/amber-vinson-ebola-nurse-interview/
- Moor Larkin
- JuliaM
- Moor Larkin
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Frankie
January 11, 2015 at 7:48 pm -
@Engineer.
So do I… regardless of how she contracted Ebola anyone who goes there, be it soldier building the hospital or nurse/health professional I would not have their job for a solid gold clock (i.e. a clock made of gold – except for the working parts, clockface, etc. (clarified for the benefit of the pedantic)).It is poor reward to any of those who are caring for the sick to become a victim themselves and that includes the poor benighted indigent population. Whether our precious NHS staff should be there or not is another question.
- JuliaM
- Ho Hum
January 9, 2015 at 10:11 am -
Thank you for providing today’s ‘GFY’ moment. It’s always nice to get that over early
- windsock
January 9, 2015 at 11:01 am -
Sounds like you’re all out of sympathy for anyone.
- Engineer
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 9, 2015 at 9:59 am -
I have to admit that my very first thought, upon being told by the lung-specialist doctor that the ‘ill defined density’ in my lung wasn’t cancer, wasn’t ‘Oh Joy, I shall live to watch my Grandkids grow up and become worthwhile productive members of society’. Oh no. The first thought, the tsunami of relief was : “Thank F**K. I won’t have to suffer a treatment at the hands of the NHS!”. Mind you, being an unrepentant smoker they probably would have refused to treat me anyways.
- Carol42
January 9, 2015 at 5:45 pm -
They probably would, I got treated with no problems even when I told them my smoking was not negotiable . Only advice was to try and stop for three weeks before surgery so I used an e cig though they were not well known then. In hospital I had endless doctors and nurses where I got it. During my last check up the surgeon even said if I got a new Cancer, they could operate again but maybe he is one of the good guys and I think he was a bit surprised I recovered and healed very quickly and had no problems after the anaesthetic or any breathing problems. I am good at fighting my corner too.
- Carol42
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 10:16 am -
Is Haiti still suing the World Health Organisation for introducing Cholera and killing them?
Let’s hope the NHS has consulted it’s lawyers.- Jonathan Mason
January 9, 2015 at 11:37 pm -
My understanding is that the primary suspects for introducing cholera to Haiti were UN peacekeepers from Nepal, as the strain of cholera was a perfect match to one found in Nepal. Apparently the Nepalese troops had been emptying their porta-potties into a river used downstream for drinking water.
http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/world/2015/01/09/21481655/
I actually went to Haiti as an independent volunteer the week after the earthquake in 2010, took some medical supplies that I had bought myself, and set up a small wound treatment clinic where people were camping in a shopping parade parking lot just outside of Pòtoprens, as the capital city is known locally. A lot of people had small injuries and gashes from flying shards of concrete incurred during the earthquake that were turning septic. These were the lucky ones who were not crushed to death in collapsing buildings.
The problem is that the country has a massive lack of infrastructure, so public health measures we tend to take for granted like universal potable water supplies and hygienic means of disposing of sewerage and treating it are very lacking indeed. Actually you can sterilize water for drinking by leaving it out in the sun for a couple of hours in a clear plastic bottle, or by boiling it, but this involves planning, forethought, and awareness. There is also a considerable problem with mosquito-born diseases. My wife and nanny visited Haiti for a few days last year in July and both came back with Chikungungu fever from the Cap Haitien area, for which I had to foot the medical bills. Thankfully both are now recovered.
However if you look at the link to the video above, the people shown are surprisingly healthy-looking and well-dressed although the hospital probably isn’t up to NHS standards of hygiene.
- Jonathan Mason
- Pete
January 9, 2015 at 10:44 am -
Reading some of the comments on your blog, Anna, always reminds me what vile people can be found on the right-wing, just as reading some of the comments on Craig Murray’s blog reminds me what vile people exist on the left wing.
Oddly enough I first found your blog via a link from Craig’s.
I think as of today I shall quit reading both of them. Thanks again though, for all the good work you did on the Jimmy Saville witchhunt.
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 10:49 am -
One L
- windsock
January 9, 2015 at 11:00 am -
Craig Murray’s blog… while I have a lot of sympathy for him in his battles with the British government, he mostly comes across as a self-righteous smug prig, and you’re right, his commenters can be worse. Here, there are views expressed I don’t like sometimes, but I find that both Anna and her team and most of the commenters are open to challenge without resorting straight away to the ad homs. If you don’t like the comments – call them out.
- @ricardo_bald
January 9, 2015 at 1:15 pm -
I’m not any ‘wing’. I have an opinion, I gave it.
- Fat Steve
January 9, 2015 at 2:40 pm -
@windsock…… self-righteous smug prig,
tut tut windsock …..I do hope Fat Steve hasn’t encouraged you to take up some of his bad habits- windsock
January 9, 2015 at 2:45 pm -
As if…. I have plenty of my own, thank you, to adopt any more. Have you read his blog?
- Fat Steve
January 9, 2015 at 2:56 pm -
@windsock ref Craig Murray
on occasion ….but he is not a patch on La Belle Raccoone- Fat Steve
January 9, 2015 at 3:33 pm -
Just visited the Craig Murray Arms …..pretty dodgy boozer with loads of rough clientele swearing and shouting ……spit, sawdust and broken bottles everywhere and the landlord appeared to be babbling a little incoherently ….gosh I forgot such places existed since frequenting this establishment. Anna you should put up the price of your drinks and get a few heavies to keep the riff raff out
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 9, 2015 at 4:22 pm -
Seeing as The Raccoon Arms has recently moved , it would display cultural sensitivity on the Landlady’s part towards those of her native clientele if she were to rename the place ” ooj s’riped ra’aarms” [for the English speakers among us: “huge striped rat arms”]. She would also do well to order in tankards with wider grips for those extra digits and damp carpet to cushion the webfeet.
- windsock
January 9, 2015 at 4:29 pm -
We’re not all from Norfolk…
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 4:33 pm -
With webs on their fingers
And webs on their toes
Ooo’s wed thar cousin
Nobody knows- The Blocked Dwarf
January 9, 2015 at 4:43 pm -
@Moor
CLASSIC! I shall commit that to memory.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- windsock
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Fat Steve
- Fat Steve
- windsock
- Fat Steve
- Moor Larkin
- Ljh
January 9, 2015 at 10:56 am -
Being treated by professionals in Sierra Leone makes very little difference to survival rates. Being treated with plasma from a survivor does ie using their antibodies to fight the disease. Why aren’t treatment centres staffed by immune survivors? Why aren’t immune survivors being paid for their plasma? It would take a haematologist and a couple of talented venepuncturing nurses to train them.
- Cascadian
January 9, 2015 at 11:05 pm -
A very sensible comment.
Most of what is being done in Sierra Leone is palliative, or should we say preventative-remove the plague victims before they infect anyone else.
- Cascadian
- Cloudberry
January 9, 2015 at 11:56 am -
There was a report in the Times on Wednesday about A&E being under tremendous pressure. It said that staff without medical knowledge are now manning the 111 number and often send people to A&E to be on the safe side. An ambulance had been sent out for a sick cat and for a human whose electronic tag was too tight. There have also been reports about people going to A&E because they can’t get an appointment with their GP. Perhaps NHS nurses find working in Sierra Leone more rewarding, if they feel that they’re doing something worthwhile. It would presumably also be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity from a professional point of view and maybe the Sierra Leonean staff in the NHS take the same view of their jobs in the UK.
- Cascadian
January 9, 2015 at 11:10 pm -
And as we all know- YOLO, a freebie trip to Africa and plaudits to the “selfless volunteers” is so much more satisfying for the smug NHS employees, who after all, are rather badly needed at home where a much better survival rate could be predicted.
- Cascadian
- mike fowle
January 9, 2015 at 12:03 pm -
Something that intrigues me, you say that in 2012/13 the NHS budget was around £108.9 billion. Does anyone know if that is government spending or does it include the income from prescriptions, optical and dental charges? And what about charities? Any high street is full of charity shops with a health connection, plus the advertisements in the media, plus legacies.
- Engineer
January 9, 2015 at 1:28 pm -
As I understand it, the £108.9bn is funds made available direct from the Treasury, i.e. out of tax revenues and public borrowings. The full Health Department budget is about £120bn, but Whitehall administration costs, Public Health Laboratory costs and possibly HNS dental costs are covered by this, so the £108.9bn doesn’t take account of prescription charges (which will tot up to practically sod all, as the majority of prescriptions issued are covered by exemptions of one sort or another), optical or dental charges, or such things as car parking charges and the like.
- Henry the Horse
January 9, 2015 at 8:41 pm -
Anna seems to be against a ‘nationalised’ system in the article but then goes on to praise France so she isn’t really praising privatisation either. There is this constant muddying of the waters on this issue in her health posts. She should be quite clear that if the NHS goes private we are not going to get a French system. What we will get is the US one being pushed by the lobbyists and corporations who have given so much to both main parties. And as Anna points out that by all rating is the worst in the developed world. Indeed, on child morality it is even worse than places in the developing world!
- Henry the Horse
- Engineer
- Alexander Baron
January 9, 2015 at 12:11 pm -
Obviously this shows how “racist” we all are. Myself I think we should pull out of all this international stuff and let others do it. Britain is no longer even a 5th rate power; China and India have a third of the Earth’s population between them, and as China is the new superpower, they should rise to it.
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 12:17 pm -
The Chinese are very active in the world. They build roads and stuff like that with Johnny Foreigner rather than dropping bombs on them to set them free. Back in the Sxities we always used to say, “Clever, these Chinese” and that was just Charlie Chan!
- Engineer
January 9, 2015 at 1:32 pm -
Fiendish cunning, they are. They build lots of roads, hospitals and the like in ‘developing’ countries, and there’s absolutely no truth in the rumour that the mining of scarce resources that they do in the same countries at the same time is in any way linked. Nor is there any truth in the rumour that they’ll scarper leaving the roads and hospitals to rot when the mines are worked out.
- Mudplugger
January 9, 2015 at 3:51 pm -
A tad cynical, Mr Engineer – but then a ‘cynic’ is what an idealist calls a realist.
- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 4:15 pm -
Gracious. Mining scarce resources! How very dare they…
- Mudplugger
- Engineer
- Henry the Horse
January 10, 2015 at 12:59 pm -
We are the fourth or fifth biggest economy in the world. As one of the richest society’s on the planet we do have some responsibilities to those less fortunate, especially in country’s we have historical links to through our Empire. India can hardly cope with its own poor let alone Africa’s.
- Mudplugger
January 10, 2015 at 8:52 pm -
So the explanation of India’s space programme is………
- Mudplugger
- Moor Larkin
- binao
January 9, 2015 at 12:32 pm -
I’ve had a fair bit of exposure to the nhs & private care over recent years, for me, my late wife, family and friends. And some overseas experience of private care. I’ve no connection whatever to any health organisation.
There’s been a necessary & welcome transformation in my local South Coast nhs hospital over the past 2-3 years. During that time I’ve had care from two entirely separate departments. There’s far more engagement with the patient at all levels, the place is clean & modern, very efficient, and certainly made me feel well cared for & confident in the quality of care.
A & E too. About a month ago, on arriving for a cardiac rehab clinic visit at another site, I was captured by the staff, ambulanced off to A & E, then AMU, before release the following afternoon. Minutes only of delay in A & E while still accompanied by the crew, then attended by a succession of doctors, wired up, x-rayed, & monitored until escape with yet another damn box of pills.
OK, that’s personal experience, and we then have these damned statistics.
I don’t know how the A & E numbers are worked, but it seems to me that if anyone feeling the need can just turn up, there really is very little the staff can do to meet targets. I’d like to think the urgent cases get priority, & have heard nothing to suggest otherwise. Sure we can expect the hospital to work flexibly to respond to unexpected peaks in demand, but this must be dependent on the urgency of the cases waiting.I think there’s a lot to be done, by international standards, but the nhs is could be the largest non military organisation in the world. It takes time. Locally, the experience is chalk & cheese compared to say 4 years ago. Including my GP’s being shut down on nhs orders. Something has happened here with staff at all levels. Something positive. Having managed people & some sizeable sites, there are lots of indicators that show this. Yes, I know that doesn’t necessarily translate into better ‘outcomes’, but it’s progress.
I don’t like the hype & politicisation of the nhs debate, whether it be the press, BMA, Party, or from the Labour stuffed charities; I don’t donate any more, despite my respect e.g. for Macmillan trained nurses.- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 12:39 pm -
I have wondered if these sudden declarations of “I’m Inadequate!” have been sparked by purely bureaucratic issues of compensation being due, a bit like with the trains where folk can technically demand Virgin gives them vouchers and such. By declaring “states of emergency” the relevant Trust indemnifies itself against all possible claims from the punters or penalties from the regulators. The fact that it all kicked off about two days after the Tories unveiled their Campaign poster showing the long straight road to the Weimar Republic is, I’m sure, totally a chance occurrence.
- Mudplugger
January 9, 2015 at 3:56 pm -
There’s no doubt a strategic political motive behind all the sudden ’emergency’ states, or manufactured crisis to be more accurate.
The inadequate managers of all these trusts know only too well that, if they can help engineer a Labour government in May, the cash-without-questions will start to flow again and they can go back to their easy life of cosy, non-managing existence. Coincidence, it ain’t.
- Mudplugger
- Moor Larkin
- Roderick
January 9, 2015 at 12:37 pm -
Has anyone stopped to consider that the pressure of immigrant numbers, per se, on the NHS is compounded by their habits and expectations.
In many overseas countries, the typical response to a medical problem is to go to the nearest Hospital Emergency Room. These units provide a 24/7 service to all comers, provided that they can pay by cash or a valid credit card, and dispense the usual placebo pills for a cold, or patch up little Johnny’s cuts and scrapes, just like our GPs are supposed to do (apart from the 24/7 and payment bits). If foreigners move to live here and are faced with a medical problem – emergency or otherwise – their first instinct is to go to the nearest Casualty Department, or A&E as it seems to be called these days. Added to this, when our thoughtful Labour politicians are busy leaking leak dodgy statistics which the tabloids, including the BBC, duly sensationalise into screaming headlines about Winter Crisis In The NHS, it’s a small wonder that people of any nationality, especially worried immigrants lacking experience of what a ‘normal’ NHS looks like, err on the side of safety and visit A&E, for fear that it might not be there tomorrow.
This is a problem that can be solved without additional money. All it takes is a bit of calm and mature leadership.
- Henry the Horse
January 9, 2015 at 8:49 pm -
What has changed to not foreigners but the new GP contract which gives immensely wellpaid family doctors absolutely no incentive to remain open for the hours they used to. Hence people run along to the hospital instead.
GPs have become immensely spolit the last decade or so. There is not one in the country that take home less than an MP and a good minority take home hundred of thousands every year. Yet not one article have I seen monstering them they way politicians are.
- Cascadian
January 9, 2015 at 10:33 pm -
As to the “immensely spoilt” GP’s, one assumes that camoron is following the well trodden path of Aneurin Bevan who enabled the startup of the NHS and famously said of the doctors he had “stuffed their mouths with gold”.
I would sincerely hope that any GP I was consulting would earn more than an MP, (a job that requires no qualification or expertise whatsoever).
The doctors should not be scape-goated because parliament has failed to plan adequately for doctor training.
Of course my advocacy fails when female doctors, many of whom seem to regard their chosen career as a part-time well paying occupation that gets in the way of their lifestyle are reviewed.
- Mudplugger
January 10, 2015 at 9:33 am -
Your last paragraph is spot-on. Mrs Mudplugger works at a multi-GP surgery and is quite scathing about the relative contribution of the female GPs there – they expect a full-time reward for a part-time commitment, where their doctoring is always considered as secondary to their external lives.
The situation is further worsened by the patients, the majority of whom are female in all surgeries, and many of those insist on seeing a female GP, and not only for their various below-the waist plumbing issues. This quickly fills up the few appointments for the girlie part-timers, while the more dedicated male GPs still have many appointment-slots unused – then the same patients complain that they can’t get too see the doc !
- Wigner’s Friend
January 10, 2015 at 5:11 pm -
5 GPs in the practice I attend, all female, all part time!
- Wigner’s Friend
- Henry the Horse
January 10, 2015 at 1:05 pm -
You say beig an MP is ‘a job that requires no qualification or expertise whatsoever’, a rather foolish statement. It is a job that requires the confidence of 50,000 to 70,000 of your peers to get. Even before that there is a hugely competitive process to be selected. If MPs are not what they were the gripping public have only themselves to blame. Who would subject themselves to endless scrutiny of their private life and neverending compaints they are ‘on the make’ in return for a salary that many in middle management in either the private or public sector would laugh at? We get the politicians we deserve.
- Cascadian
January 10, 2015 at 7:25 pm -
It is not a foolish statement, show me the qualifications required!
Indeed you do get the politicians you deserve-camoron, milliband, harman, balls, clegg. Need I continue?
By asking “Who would subject themselves to endless scrutiny of their private life and neverending complaints ” you may have unwittingly answered your own question, only insecure people who know they could not survive in the real world, and that this is the price they must pay for sheltering in Westminster.
- Cascadian
- Mudplugger
- Cascadian
- Henry the Horse
- English Pensioner
January 9, 2015 at 12:48 pm -
I think it is morally wrong for the NHS to employ nurses from countries which are poorer than ourselves. These nurses are probably trained by these countries at huge expense (compared with their national budget) and are then tempted away by the NHS with better pay. Having foreign nurses for training is one thing, keeping them is another.
This is why the apprenticeship system we once had in this country broke down; some companies discovered it was cheaper to take on someone that had been an apprentice elsewhere, even if they had to pay a bit more, than to train their own, and so those with training schemes decided not to spend money training them for another company.
The NHS is doing the same. Accountants have no doubt decided it is cheaper to poach foreign doctors and nurses than to train our own; we should be training a surplus so that we can provide help to the third world, not steal the little that they have.- Moor Larkin
January 9, 2015 at 12:55 pm -
I remember my dentist when I was a kid in the early Sixties. My mother worshipped at his feet because he was so good. By the time I had got all of my second teeth he was in California and I was being tended to by an NHS Piece-worker with halitosis who appeared to also have shares in the Amalgam Industry.
*smiles metallically*…- The Blocked Dwarf
January 9, 2015 at 1:34 pm -
My mother also thought our NHS dentist walked on mouth rinse if not water. First time I opened my mouth for a German dentist , his first words to me were: “What were you ‘in’ for?”. No word of a lie, the standard of the NHS dentistry in my gob just screamed ‘Prison Health Care’.
- binao
January 9, 2015 at 2:06 pm -
Back in the ’80s, working in RSA I went a local dentist who was extremely scathing of nhs ‘when in doubt, pull it out’ dentistry as he described it, explaining taking out a tooth is the very last & desperate remedy.
Same dentist, ‘Please tell me if anything hurts, I don’t want you going elsewhere’. Arranging an appointment, I asked for an early one before going to work. ‘07.30 or 08.00 do you?’ was the response.
- binao
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Engineer
January 9, 2015 at 1:39 pm -
“I think it is morally wrong for the NHS to employ nurses from countries which are poorer than ourselves. These nurses are probably trained by these countries at huge expense (compared with their national budget) and are then tempted away by the NHS with better pay. Having foreign nurses for training is one thing, keeping them is another.”
Wholeheartedly agree – and the same applies to doctors. It would be a fine thing to arrange like-for-like exchanges so that clinical staff in both countries could expand their experience, but the UK’s wholesale hoovering-up of other peoples’ desperately needed clinical staff is little short of immoral.
- Jonathan Mason
January 9, 2015 at 11:52 pm -
I think it is morally wrong for the NHS to employ nurses from countries which are poorer than ourselves. These nurses are probably trained by these countries at huge expense (compared with their national budget) and are then tempted away by the NHS with better pay. Having foreign nurses for training is one thing, keeping them is another.
In some cases perhaps, but in others the person and their families may have made sacrifices and spent their own money to obtain qualifications that would be recognized internationally and give them the opportunity to go overseas and earn money to send back home, some of which might be used to train up more people. I work for the State of Florida and we have many Vietnamese doctors working for the state government, some of them now well into their 70’s and still working and sending remittances to support relatives overseas. One who is a friend of mine has paid to put 5 sons through medical school.
Under your proposal English hospitals would probably not be able to hire nurses from an independent Scotland, or is it the other way round?
Anyway, shouldn’t the nurses and doctors be able to decide for themselves where they want to work? It is not as if they are trafficked indentured labour beholden to NHS gangmasters.
- English Pensioner
January 10, 2015 at 12:44 pm -
When I was young, many engineering companies had apprenticeship schemes and their own training schools, and most apprentices were guaranteed a job when they completed their training. Then came the new companies; Why waste money training staff when we can get ready trained staff if we pay a little more? This happened, and within a few years all the apprenticeship schools were closed.
This seems to be what is happening in the NHS, accountants have probably calculated it is cheaper to get staff from abroad so we no longer train sufficient to meet our needs. I’ve no objection to someone who has paid their own training costs going where they like, but I remain convinced that it immoral for the NHS to be seeking, what is effectively cheap labour, from abroad. What happens when these countries stop funding the training of their own nationals?- Mudplugger
January 10, 2015 at 9:11 pm -
Very true – my first job was with the local Gas Board (long before British Gas plc). That organisation, in its 12 regional centres, trained well over 2,000 apprentices each year, to a very high level in all aspects of plumbing and building work, with major focus on safety. Most went on to work for the same Gas Board area but, over time, probably half of them left to become self-employed or work for other plumbing firms. In effect, that one organisation was training most of Britain’s plumbers.
All that stopped sometime after privatisation, reducing the nation’s cohort of trained plumbers, hence the flood of Polish plumbers etc. over the past decades – they may be cheaper, they may even work harder, but I doubt if their basic training in Warsaw or Gdansk was anywhere near as good.
And the old Electricity Boards did the same for sparkies. Progress, eh.
- Mudplugger
- English Pensioner
- Moor Larkin
- ken
January 9, 2015 at 1:28 pm -
My 2p as a deliverer of patients to hospital.
There are not enough beds. Plain and simple.Patients are waiting on ambulance trolleys and can’t be unloaded
and taken to cubicles or wards. Those ambulances tied up are not available for calls, so Doris or George who fell
hours ago will have to wait longer to be picked up off the floor as their “carers” aren’t allowed to lift.111 is incompetent. They will order an ambulance for almost anyone and are extremely risk averse.
Filtering is practically non-existent as people have twigged that,whatever your complaint, if you say “yes” to questions such as
“do you have chest pain “?
“do you have difficulty in breathing”? you will automatically generate a red2 response and an ambulance.
If there are no ambulances, Boris will send a taxi or fire engine to dump you at A&E.Ambulance and Nursing staff are leaving at an alarming rate, but Ambulance and NHS managers see no problem as they can plug the gap with agency staff and private ambulances.So thats where Dave’s millions are going.
Anna, if you would like to , you can ask for a rideout with an ambulance crew as an observer. You can experience the full joy of a 12hr shift without breaks (actually 14 hrs because of late jobs) and also see the pressure that nursing staff are under.
Witness the skill of the World’s greatest health Service resuscitating patients in public on a bed in a corridor (Resus is full btw). Marvel at the nursing staff taking bloods,sats and ecgs in a crowded hospital waiting area filled with beds,trolleys, drunks,psychos,rough sleepers, thugs and screaming kids.I can understand why Sierra Leone might seem like a break.
Ken - acousticvillage
January 9, 2015 at 2:03 pm -
“…people variously wandering around at snails speed”…LMAO – Absolutely spot on. As is the rest of this wonderful article.
- binao
January 9, 2015 at 2:32 pm -
I wonder if there’ll be an objective examination of what’s gone wrong at Hinchingbrook with Circle.
& if the future will be determined by the facts rather than ideology, either way.
Embarrassing that this was a Labour privatisation.- Engineer
January 9, 2015 at 3:43 pm -
I wonder if the current problems with A&E are in part down to the effects of rearranging GP contracts a few years ago. Some of the GP practices in my are are notorious for being almost impossible to access, even for patients registered with them for donkey’s years, and suffering quite serious health problems; and that’s during office hours. Outside office hours, they’re very firmly shut to all. Even the better-organised GP practices are not what they were (partly because of the additional workload of patients from the worst offenders re-registering with them).
- Ken
January 9, 2015 at 5:59 pm -
The GPs aren’t available because they are working out-of -hours to provide
GP services to 111 via Grabadoc or Seldoc. I believe they are trousering about
£1000 per shift for this service. Must be the Hypocritic oath.
- Ken
- Ljh
January 10, 2015 at 3:52 pm -
Hinchingbrooke has been discussed over at Tim Worstall: in the privatisation process, only senior management changed, leaving NHS culture intact and therein probably lies the problem….
- Carol42
January 10, 2015 at 5:45 pm -
I used to live in the area and indeed my husband died in Hinchinbrooke. It wasn’t a bad hospital except for the food which was awful. Friends say it was greatly improved when Circle took over and everyone seems to have forgotten it was bankrupt and, as no Trust wanted to take it over, it was in danger of closing altogether. If I remember correctly vast debt was incurred when the built a lovely new treatment centre and the expected contracts did not materialise . I was actually in hospital when Princess Anne opened it. Circle invested a lot if their own money trying to make it viable and I have also read that they were being shut out of contracts, making it very difficult to sustain. I am sorry it didn’t work though as it could have set a whole new pattern for our ancient NHS system. After all the private/public mixture seems to work fine in other countries I have lived in where it is not a political football.
- Engineer
- Joe Public
January 9, 2015 at 5:36 pm -
Thanks for uncovering facts which our MSM (strangely) seems to have overlooked.
Maybe they were starved of resources, or the political aspect was the wrong hue for their owners/Trust.
- Carol42
January 9, 2015 at 6:06 pm -
They should bring back the State Enrolled Nurse two year qualification which produced excellent practical nurses. Instead we have Heath Care Assistants with no standard training or registration at all. Not all potentially good nurses need an academic qualification or degree and not all are capable of gaining it. I can never understand why they changed a system that worked well.
- Ken
January 9, 2015 at 11:03 pm -
HCAs are fine for collecting the baseline obs for which they are trained but if the patient deteriorates or they have been incorrectly triaged
then they have to grab a doctor or nurse to take over. SEN was an excellent qualification but in the rush to “professionalism” the SRN/ RGN degree became the Holy Grail and SENs were either dumped or forced to train as SRN/RGN. That itself was driven by replacing Sisters and Matrons i/c of wards with RGNs. Much cheaper and you could recruit staff from overseas and replace SENs with HCAs.
Sisters and Matrons do still exist but seem to have little time to do clinical stuff and are more concerned with off-trolley times for the ambulances, juggling bedspaces and avoiding Red and Black breaches.No politician this side of an election is going to reinstate a role with a 2 year lead time and the possibility that another party might get the credit when the SENs come on stream effectively.
- Jonathan Mason
January 10, 2015 at 12:41 am -
They might benefit from a new qualification like the Licensed Practical Nurse in the US, which is a one-year course that is more advanced than a care assistant, but includes a lot less classroom theory than the RN course. Most often LPNs are used as medication-giving technicians in nursing homes, etc, but some are also used to do venipuncture and lab draws. You could also have licensed phlebotomists who would not need to have the whole 3 or 4 year RN training, who could take some of the weight off the RNs in the A&Es. They could also be trained to administer EKGs.
Of course part of the problem with crowded A&Es must be lack of available GP services. Why would one spend hours in the A&E waiting to be seen for a minor ailment if it was so easy to make a GP appointment online or on a cell phone and walk in to be seen with minimum waiting, though there will always be some.
In Cuba they have a doctor for every 170 residents and very cost-effective health care, though the pay for doctors is very low. Thus it is very profitable for Cuba to contract its NHS doctors out overeas to fight Ebola, famine, etc. Apparently doctors in Cuba also accept under-the-table payments for expedited service.
If you have unlimited healthcare on demand, then you will have guaranteed unlimited demand. One solution might be to throttle demand by introducing some kind of co-payments for A&E visits unless the person is a child or can demonstrate that they are indigent. Or you could introduce payments for expedited service in the A&E and have first-class lounges with soundproofing, wi-fi, etc. Certainly in the workplace in Florida, staff who might otherwise call out sick come into work rather than pay $50 copayment at the A&E to get a doctor’s note at the weekend, so I have no doubt that payments, even if modest, can influence behavior. Actually even in communist Cuba, some services have to be paid for.
- Jonathan Mason
- Ken
- Henry the Horse
January 9, 2015 at 8:30 pm -
I read the other day that 12 of Sierra Leone’s 120 doctors had died of ebola. What shocked me was not that 10% of the country’s doctors had died but that a country of 4 million has only 120 doctors. As Anna pointed out we have tens of thousands so a little bit of charity hardly seems out of place. Indeed, I think the well off are morally obliged to share something of their wealth with those who might be so misfortunate as to be dying through lack of medical help. Okay so this will involved some extra costs but there you go, nothing comes for free.
By the way, it is implied in what Anna says that the NHS is very cushy for its employees. If that is the case then can Anna explain why so few English people want to be nurses and why do we have to hoover up qualifed staff from developing world countries who have put a lot of money and time into training them? And do we not also owe something to these countries whose finest we have pinched?
- Jonathan Mason
January 10, 2015 at 12:43 am -
Sierra Leone is quite well-doctored compared to neighboring Liberia which has 51 doctors to serve the country’s 4.2 million people according to WHO.
- Jonathan Mason
- Hadleigh Fan
January 9, 2015 at 9:09 pm -
On the subject of prescription charges, I once forgot my blood pressure pills, and after looking up the international names for the drug, I asked in a southern Italian pharmacy: I could get 50 pills for 2 euro where 60 were costing me £7.80 for 60 in the ‘free’ NHS. For a couple of years I told everyone who’d listen.
Then, in Greece, I went to buy some Votlarol, and nearly got laughed out of the pharmacy. 12.5 milligramme? That’s useless: you need 50 or 100! (And they are cheaper).
But, last year in Italy, 500mg paracetamols cost me 5 euro, when they are 26p in my local Coop!
I’m confused …
- Mudplugger
January 9, 2015 at 9:46 pm -
No need for confusion, it’s a simple old selling rule – you charge what the market will stand, in other words, whatever you can get away with charging in any market-place.
That’s why Aldi & Lidl are running rings round the established cosy-cartel stores in the UK – they’ve called their bluff. - Henry the Horse
January 9, 2015 at 10:31 pm -
Don’t be confused. Greeks expect to live on a few thousand euros a year while the average British wage is 22,000 sterling. You might have noticed that plenty of other things are cheaper in southern Italy and Greece, it is not just medicine. In any case prescriptions are not on the NHS anymore. You are in a commercial realtionship with your pharmacist.
If anything someone like you should be demanding prescriptions be brought back on the NHS …
- Jonathan Mason
January 10, 2015 at 12:50 am -
It is always best to ask for the generic version of a drug if there is one available, otherwise you will get hosed wherever you are. Acetominophen is the international name for Paracetamol or Tylenol. In Italy you may need to ask for Tachipirina or the generic equivalent.
- Mudplugger
- Bill Ingleby
January 10, 2015 at 12:14 am -
I liked Mrs Raccoon. I liked her opinions; she backed them up with research. Now I see “saloon bar ” prejudice that seems to accept that all poverty is deserved ( whether of resources, culture, connections or aspirations) and Mrs Raccoons ability to speak sense from the meanest location is ignored by the majority of commentators here. These people don’t cite sources, don’t challenge authority – they complain about people poorer than they are who may wish to improve they’re prospects. People who work harder, know more and study.
So you take your cynicism and remember that your soft lives are threatened by harder people who won’t give you any more consideration than you give them. Maybe a growth of civil society, cooperation and consensus might help you rather than whining about obligations that your preferred Thatcherite non-society engenders. It’s not too late. But for now, I’m sick of you and your selfishness.- The Blocked Dwarf
January 10, 2015 at 1:37 am -
“So you take your cynicism and remember that your soft lives are threatened by harder people who won’t give you any more consideration than you give them.”
Soft lives? I’m pretty sure that many of the regulars here have not had ‘soft’ lives -be it for reasons of finance, background or health. OK. we’re probably all better off than, say, the average guy in Backwardstan but , in some cases, not by much. Many of the commentators admit to there having been times when their last meal was distant memory, of sleeping on the streets, of living with the very real threat of a fiery immolation at the hands of the Luftwaffe or the IRA, from being terminally ill and in pain that surpasses all modern medical attempts to control.
So fuck you and the high horse you rode in on. (Apologies to the Landlady for swearing but sometimes only anglo-saxon will do).
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 10, 2015 at 2:02 am -
AR, please delete my last post if it offends and I apologise to BI for the adhom of the last sentence.
- Cascadian
January 10, 2015 at 3:03 am -
I thought it was rather well said and needed no modification.
BI seems to be one of the hard-core socialists who can tolerate no commentary on the realities of the NHS.
What he intends to be a slur-“saloon bar ” prejudice-says rather more about him than any of the occupants of the Raccoon Arms saloon and public bars (and snug), he is obviously a champagne-sipping socialist of the worst kind who cannot abide the company of any worker.
I doubt he or his deluded thoughts will be missed at all.
- Henry the Horse
January 10, 2015 at 1:14 pm -
You might win the argument, Cascadian, if you actually addressed Bill’s points rather than simply labelling him a ‘hard-core socialist’. I think his point against Anna and many people commenting presume poverty is deserved is a good one. For myslef I know it is just luck that I was born British rather than in some country where I would have had considerably less advantages. It might seem tough living in the UK at the moment but a lack of empathy for those living on 5% of what we do leaves a very bad impression of character.
- Engineer
January 10, 2015 at 2:13 pm -
Having read Mr Ingleby’s comment twice, I don’t see many points worth addressing. It just seems to be a rather blinkered and thinly veiled ad-hominem side-swipe at the Raccoon Arms commenters in general. I saw no constructive point about the NHS and it’s troubles, or about nurses volunteering to serve in the Ebola-ridden parts of Africa, or about their use for PR purposes by others.
He seemed to accuse us of not caring about people who are poorer than us; a charge I refute utterly. He makes a rather ill-informed comment about ‘Thatcherism’ which merely shows that he does not understand (or possibly does not wish to understand) what Mrs Thatcher did or why.
He talks about ‘people who know more, work harder and study’. Mr Ingleby, for your information, I do not use the title ‘Engineer’ for nothing – I earned it. The hard way. I worked hard and studied. Whether or not I ‘know more’ is for others to judge. And – for your information – my life has rarely been ‘soft’. Like many here, I’ve had my setbacks, and crosses to bear. I just choose not to whinge about it, that’s all.
- Fat Steve
January 10, 2015 at 6:02 pm -
@Henry the Horse I think his point against Anna and many people commenting presume poverty is deserved is a good one.
I may be slow and I may be insensitive and most certainly La Belle Raccoon doesn’t need my help in interpreting her words which stand by themselves but I strain to conclude from what she has written as some have here that there is any condemnation of those who are poor. The thrust of her argument (and a few of the commentators who have been condemned) from my perspective was that the response to Ebola has been somewhat muddle headed and tainted by propagandising by interested groups anxious to get a slice of Kudos. My guess is the nurse who has Ebola was motivated by a number of factors including most probably a fair measure of altruism and a wish to give meaning to her life in facing up to a challenge which presented itself and perhaps even a wish for change. Its the inconsistencies of those who seek to arrogate and bask in the opportunity that such action by the nurse presents ….a certain Cant and Hypocrisy…… that Anna draws attention to …..a sort of stop congratulating yourself and asking the public to join in your self congratulation when really you might better spend your time addressing the real issues that are meant to concern you and in respect of which the evidence indicates you don’t really do adequately well. Once you have done that then perhaps time for other things. But that is England at the moment …..an obsession with everybody else and their perceived failings or virtues …..everyone wishing to be a sort of X factor judge on the actions of others and perhaps in so doing avoiding self reflection and the taking of effective action for themselves and for Society. - Cascadian
January 10, 2015 at 8:28 pm -
Henry, you have the benefit of two thoughtful replies from two of the better commentors here so I will not go over the ground they have covered. Since you addressed me singularly I nevertheless thought a reply necessary.
You will perceive that my comment was directed to Blocked Dwarf, therefore I really had no intention of addressing BI’s rather garbled collection of socialist dogma. I stand by my comments, BI comes across as a smug socialist spouting all the standard “civil society” phrases, and will take no lectures from his type about striving to escape poverty by hard word and application.
That there is poverty in Africa is undenied, perhaps the socialist commentors here might reflect how numerous socialist experiments on that continent have demonstrably made the situation worse for every population rather than laying fault with the commentors here in an attempt to divert the conversation away from another socialist experiment that has failed miserably-the national death service.
- Ho Hum
January 10, 2015 at 9:43 pm -
Two of my relatives/friends died within the last 12 weeks. My, the NHS tried so valiantly to keep them in the land of the living, but in your late ’80s with major bowel complications, or in the mid 50s with terminal brain cancer, no amount of trying would suffice. How awful of them to fail! But they did pull out all the stops to make sure their deaths were as painless as possible, so, yes, they do seem to be good at ‘death’
By a miracle, they rescued another 60 year old friend last year from an early demise – they seemed to get really lucky with his somewhat complicated brain tumor – and he lives on. Still, he and his missus could compete with many here for moaning about the NHS. That his management experience is solely related to running a little shop with 2/3 employees seems to qualify h to know so much better
As for my granddaughter, it is probably an act of divine intervention that resulted in her surviving an NHS birth. But never mind, when she gets older and reads the wisdom of the sages on the internet, I’m sure she’ll top herself quickly when she appreciates the profundity of their thoughts
- Cascadian
January 10, 2015 at 11:15 pm -
May I say how glad I am that the NHS seems to be working for you Ho Hum.
However the overwhelming evidence seems to be that major improvement needs to be made throughout the entire organization, the redeployment of the “up to 800” NHS employees currently working in Sierra Leone back to the NHS might be extremely helpful to the people who pay their wages.
Indeed when your granddaughter reads the wisdom of the sages in the future she will no doubt have the sense to discount both of our contributions. Hopefully there will be no cack-handed attempts at “topping herself” where she will be left to the mercies of short-staffed NHS emergency facilities because the staff have decided to improve their CV’s with tales of visiting exotic shores.
- binao
January 11, 2015 at 10:31 am -
A very rough calculation would suggest that the nhs attendance in Sierra Leone amount about 0,2% of nhs nurses; one in five hundred; hardly likely to break the organisation. 0,07% of total staffing, perhaps someone can check that.
My general view is that charitable acts should however be a matter for the individual. I’d be lot more convinced if millionaire politicians disposed of their own treasure before salving their consciences by taxing others. Perhaps humanitarian aid is different, and maybe when white folks start to die…?
My local GPs surgeries are offering more appointments during present peaks in A & E demand. I would have thought that a joined up service would necessarily have such plans to hand and engage before a critical situation could arise. Not necessarily the same thing as meeting numerical targets, I know.
Just a view.- Cascadian
January 11, 2015 at 5:48 pm -
The nub of the argument binao is this, during a period of extremely high demand is it sensible to send “up to 800” of your best trained personnel abroad when they are desperately needed at home?
This whole expensive exercise is another of camorons overseas adventures, an attempt to improve his stature in the EU.
- Cascadian
- Newmark
January 12, 2015 at 1:27 am -
There were 800 volunteers but only about 40 nurses are working at ebola centres in Sierra Leone at any time – usually a 3-week stint, after which they return to the UK. With pre-deployment training and after-checks they are unavailable to the NHS for 9 weeks on average. That represents a MASSIVE loss of 0.03% of the NHS nurse workforce. I don’t know how they will manage.
To get this in perspective, there are more than 5% of NHS nurses are off sick at any one time.
- Cascadian
January 12, 2015 at 3:52 am -
Hello Newmark, your math may be impeccable, that is besides the point.
NHS records for visits to A&E between 2-4 January 2015 show the following:
Wait time over 4 hours 25,244
Wait time between 4 hrs and 12 hrs 6,797
Wait time more than 12 hours 119Given that scenario, should trained staff be deployed in Sierra Leone or Britain? Yes or no?
I understand this is Britain where customer service counts for nothing, and we are talking NHS where customer service apparently counts for less than nothing.
- Cascadian
- binao
- Cascadian
- Ho Hum
- Engineer
- Henry the Horse
- Cascadian
- The Blocked Dwarf
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Fat Steve
January 11, 2015 at 10:17 am -
@ Ho Hum My, the NHS tried so valiantly to keep them in the land of the living,
I think Ho Hum there may be some elision in your thought process in this contention ……it was not the NHS (its a political construct) that was valiant but the actual individuals who treated your relatives/friends. And I think it is that elision of thought which has been fostered by the Politicians in an endeavour to arrogate the work of the individual doctor/nurse to themselves which is part of the problem with the NHS. The debate is about how best to deliver health services …..actually how doctors and nurses are best helped by the Politicians/State in delivering those services. The NHS never saved anyone, individual doctors and nurses have and continue to so do.
The NHS needs scrutiny and probably some considerable reform rather than justification and propagandising if it is to survive. I think it is potentially a great model for the future but the sadness is that it is failing for reasons that are too numerous to go into here but the demand by Politicians to be congratulated for throwing more and more taxpayer’s money at it is probably one of the problems rather than part of the solution.
Oh!!!! and in case I get accused of being a heartless bastard I personally think that universal and unlimited health care is a matter that OUGHT/SHOULD/MUST be a ( perhaps even the first) priority in a civilised Society but I think that is a rather different notion (an a more effective perspective for the individual) than an individual absolute right.- Ho Hum
January 11, 2015 at 2:04 pm -
By that thinking, Cascadian’s ‘national death service’ would also be the product of all those same individual doctors and nurses, as supported by the state to run their mass extermination programmes. OTT, I know , but that’s what I was taking issue with. I presume that you wouldn’t subscribe to that? So you missed the point a little.
As for ‘how doctors and nurses are best helped by the Politicians/State in delivering those services’ and ‘The NHS needs scrutiny and probably some considerable reform etc’, that sort of guff bawled out from the terraces is the primary reason why I now tend to shy away from the sort of debate that is found under articles like this one, in that, after the combined experience of 50 years of both myself and my other half in senior management in health and social care, most of the comment doesn’t come from your ‘heartless bastards’, but rather just ignorant ones.
No personal offence intended, as I’m sure you yourself mean none. Just a view from the other side of the touchline
- Cascadian
January 11, 2015 at 6:10 pm -
As a HoHum defined ignorant bastard who grew up in a council flat and has spent some time on the terraces, I expect to be despised by the champagne socialists. I have not been disappointed.
It seems however that my ignorance is no less profound than middling NHS officials.
- Ho Hum
January 11, 2015 at 7:36 pm -
I too grew up on a council estate, well, the Scots national equivalent. I never spent time any on the terraces. I profoundly dislike socialism, its effect on individuals, and consequently upon the society in which we live. Every bit as much as I dislike uncontrolled capitalism and free marketeering, and their impact. I try hard to see the best in people, regardless of their race, creed, colour, political allegiance or whatever else goes with them. But, sadly, I am often disappointed.
- Ho Hum
- Cascadian
- Ho Hum
- Fat Steve
January 11, 2015 at 2:37 pm -
@Ho Hum
‘that sort of guff bawled out from the terraces is the primary reason why I now tend to shy away from the sort of debate that is found under articles like this one,’
Sorry its not bawled from the terraces but by someone recently demonised on this blog for ‘refined distaste’
‘but rather just ignorant ones’
Well its interesting that you consider me ignorant but that of course assumes you are in a position to make the judgement and sorry but given the quality of your prose and argument I don’t consider you deserve respect for your judgement. In a household of four we have about 20 years of higher education (and the youngest isn’t yet halfway into his) so ignorance might be a rather easier allegation to make than to substantiate. Gosh isn’t it the X factor judge at work? ….ignorance and cleverness is a matter of what I say it is
the combined experience of 50 years of both myself and my other half in senior management in health and social care,
Ho! Ho! Ho! So you have a dog in the ring …….now why does that not surprise? As Mandy Rice Davies might opine from the whorehouse in the sky You being a member of the (new) establishment would say that (how brilliant you and the establishment you are part of) wouldn’t you?
Ho! Ho! Ho Hum Just as the 1950s establishment thought the future belonged to them forever so every establishment thinks the same but history says others .
Perhaps in honour of your opinion I shall change my nom de guerre to Ignorant Fat Steve so your opinion can enjoy some sort (perhaps the sort) of importance it deserves- Fat Steve
January 11, 2015 at 2:49 pm -
Oh! and Ho Hum my wife’s experience in health care just about matches your and your wife’s combined experiences in the health service ….but at the sharp end …..course doesn’t make you wrong just your credentials to opine aren’t that immaculate or that important ….Gosh lets have a bit of fun on a Sunday…..You might usefully give thought to whether you know your place in Society …..generally that is but more specifically before you call anyone ignorant and deem them from the terraces.
- Fat Steve
January 11, 2015 at 4:14 pm -
C’mon Ho Hum where’s your guts to fight? …..much the same as such ability you may have to look after patients …..obscured behind a desk with some grand sounding sign trumpeting your position ….the sadness for you personally is that you actually believe in the title.
Oh and before you accuse me of bullying and pulling rank remember you started the ad hominem attack ……and you ought to realise that the academic achievements of my family are by no means exceptional …..nothing we brag about (as you do in relation to your experience)….its normal even expected from someone brought up in a family who know the score about academic ability ……certainly doesn’t make us special ….just gives us the ability to defend ourselves when attacked by those such as yourself.- Ho Hum
January 11, 2015 at 5:03 pm -
I can fight alright, but I’m not into bashing older people about the head just because they misunderstood what I wrote. And, as I said the first time, no personal offence intended. Finis.
- Fat Steve
January 12, 2015 at 10:02 am -
@Ho Hum I can fight alright
Apparently not on this occasion.
I understood fully when you called me ignorant and its a little difficult not to take offence.
I doubt your ability to ‘bash’ anyone, younger or older than yourself, who has either a modicum of manners or a half decent intellect notwithstanding the abilities you claim for yourself..- Ho Hum
January 12, 2015 at 11:35 am -
Let me try this once more.
I wrote that ‘your’ ‘heartless bastards’, were mostly ignorant ones.
In doing so, I used your comments as exemplars of the type of thing that puts me off engaging in this sort of debate
I did not call you an ‘ignorant bastard’.
I did not indulge in any ad hominem
I made sure that I emphasised that i neither took, nor intended, any personal offenc
I don’t indulge in bashing up anyone if I can help it, least of all you
I’m afraid that you just have this totally wrapped round your neck
There is absolutely nothing more that I can do about that
- Fat Steve
January 12, 2015 at 2:37 pm -
Well Ho Hum I prefer to rely on the words you used rather than your telling me how I should interpret them . And might I suggest before you attempt to use a foreign language (finis) you understand what they mean ….you said you were finished but that of course does not bind me …..but clearly you thought it should since when I replied you replied once again.despite having ‘finished’
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 12, 2015 at 2:49 pm -
I hate it when HoHumm-y and Daddy fight.
- Ho Hum
January 12, 2015 at 2:51 pm -
So do I
- Ho Hum
- Ho Hum
January 12, 2015 at 2:51 pm -
I know what it means. But, sometimes, one has to make the effort to walk that one more mile.
However, if you’re saying that you really just don’t believe me, I’ll call it quits there. There’s no point in me bashing myself up over this any further
- Fat Steve
January 12, 2015 at 3:04 pm -
Ho Hum you will go on just so long as it suits you personally to so do making all manner of assertions about yourself and the NHS that cannot be substantiated by fact. The sadness on a non personal basis is that you will leave the default privatisation position as the only option if the NHS doesn’t reform. The private sector sees an easy target and rubs its hands in glee and sees ££££ signs or more probably $$$$ signs ….and so a institution which has been and could be great once again will get destroyed. I suggest that every extra mile you go in the wrong direction will just make any journey back more difficult if not impossible
- Ho Hum
January 12, 2015 at 3:39 pm -
Look, do you think I’m doing this from my office desk? If so, neither wonder you might think I have it easy.
I’m retired. But I do understand the drivers, how things happen, and why.
If you want to change direction, the politicians are those with their hands on the steering wheel, and into whose ears are whispered promises of great things. They determine the big changes. Some of these work well. Some don’t. And even then success or lack of it can vary from place to place. Privatisation, Procurement regulations, outsourcing, macro funding decisions, PFI, NICE, Public Health realignment, and so on – all of these things are their children.
And whether they be red or blue makes no difference.
- Ho Hum
- Fat Steve
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Fat Steve
- Ho Hum
- Fat Steve
- Ho Hum
- Fat Steve
- Fat Steve
- Binao
January 11, 2015 at 8:09 pm -
re Cascadian 5.48
In response, I have no idea if the sending of nhs staff, or more correctly the enabling of sending them to deal with ebola in foreign parts is a dastardly plot for D.C. to be loved by the eu. I suspect that as a politician it is for him a win win on the international stage at our expense, but he is a politician, maybe a handwringer too.
The point I was making is that the effect on the UK’s worried not quite well is insignificant. I’m assuming those in real need here are getting proper care; but I accept that this is based on my own limited experience locally. Hardly representative, but who’d trust the hype from those trying to get a meal off this issue nationally anyway?
I certainly took the view a few years ago that the nhs was a national death service- the treatment of my father, my mother in law, and my wife who received private care in an nhs hospital until it became intolerable, now all dead, and myself. The attitude of staff, the grime & tumbleweed balls of fluff bowling along the floors; the walls full of signs about ‘our commitments’, few of which were met; as someone who has managed a few people & done turnarounds in the private sector, it seemed like meltdown.
So I just make the point that local to me things have improved a lot, and I’ve been in a bit over the past 18 months. Also helped a friend requiring a fair bit of hospital service too.
Even so, as a private sector person, I still think minds in whole public sector are stainless steel shuttered, but that’s an issue for the top, not just the bottom.- Cascadian
January 11, 2015 at 9:10 pm -
Thank you Binao for your thoughtful reply, and once again let me say how happy I am that you note improvement in the NHS locally.
Allow me to frame a question to you as a “private sector person”.
You are in charge of a very large organization which is subject to well-known seasonable peaks in demand, you are presently struggling to meet demand before the expected peak. Would you deploy “up to 800” of your well qualified staff to an overseas project which is under-resourced with very little possibility of success. Or would you keep those staff to work for the people that fund your organization?
My point is that the NHS is a health organization, (at least it should be) not a charity, not a PR organization , and should work for the people who have funded it, no others.
While I believe you are correct that “those in real need here are getting proper care;” is it reasonable that they should wait extensive periods to receive that care due to staff shortages somewhat occasioned by our “selfless volunteers”.
- Binao
January 12, 2015 at 1:40 am -
My point was that relative to the size of the nhs, the impact of the 800 ought to be slight.
Even so, I agree, if I were running a unit which was or could expect to be stretched for resources, I’d be looking to cancel staff holidays, not send them off on an adventure at the company’s expense.
I also agree that a decision to provide humanitarian support to foreign parts is outside the remit of the nhs. The clue’s in the name. If govt wish to do these things we should expect the resourcing & consequences to be properly considered. Unless they’re looking for some hands-on in case of risks here.
The more general matter of providing sufficient & competent resources to deal properly with our own national & local needs is a bigger issue; I’m saying it’s a lot better where I am, I’m not saying job done.
- Binao
- Ho Hum
January 11, 2015 at 9:25 pm -
‘as a private sector person’
May I make a polite suggestion? While I obviously hope that you manage to avoid the need for any future admissions, if you are in again, or even if you’re not, ask if, and which, private companies provide the facilities services and the staff who deliver them, ie domestic cleaning services, catering, building maintenance etc. Ask which external companies retain and provide the agency medical, nursing, secretarial and other staff, and if there is a staff ‘bank’ in place. Are the computing services, hardware, software and operations staff outsourced? Ask if the consultants dictated notes are sent externally for transcription? – and if that is done, is it in the UK or overseas? Who provides the PACs services? Who supplies the local home dialysis service? Where external suppliers are used, are they UK or foreign parented companies? Find out how, and on what basis the contracts were let – was it full OJEC, and what were the selection criteria? What monitoring mechanisms were specified. How and where they are reported – and is that evidenced publicly in Board reports etc? And so on.
And then revisit the issue, and ask yourself who might really be responsible for a lot of what’s being delivered ‘at the coalface’, and how.
- Cascadian
January 12, 2015 at 12:59 am -
How about answering the question posed?
- Ho Hum
January 12, 2015 at 1:12 am -
‘ who’d trust the hype from those trying to get a meal off this issue nationally anyway?’
Not me
- Ho Hum
- Fat Steve
January 12, 2015 at 2:51 pm -
@Ho Hum
You make a fair point about outsourcing but I think you will search pretty much in vain for any front line troops in the NHS who support the idea of outsourcing ….I have yet to speak with a Doctor who outsources the typing of their private work to India or likes having his NHS work subject to the vagaries of transmission and transcription in the third world …..not that they have an option as well you know its imposed on them by management and any complaint of management decisions leaves them open to disciplinary proceedings. NHS management is a nice cushy little number with individuals who want to hide within and behind the institution serving their time till they draw their pensions rather than taking individual responsibility. It suits some but others want a life with rather greater meaning.
I stand by my assertion that the way to reform the NHS is to ask the front line troops how they can be helped rather than telling them how they should conduct their profession- Ho Hum
January 12, 2015 at 3:29 pm -
The management teams of most Trusts will have Medical Directors, Directors of Nursing, and varied other Professional Services Directors running the show, and there will be far more of them round the table than stereotypical bureaucrats. While not saying that the people at the front line shouldn’t be involved in process change, I really doubt if those folk would take too kindly to being told that they didn’t have any idea what their front line troops did, or should be doing, to the extent that they had to ask them what it was, or that some sort of Workers’, or Cultural, Revolution was required to ‘re-educate’ them
Anyway, as for who runs the show, insofar as determining what services get commissioned from providers to look after you, locally that’s now pretty much in the hands and power of the GPs. And one hopes that they have some idea what the punters, you, me, and Joe Soap, need
As for the overall operating framework and financial envelope in which this is all structured, that’s ultimately in the hands of the politicians, and the one thing you can be sure of is that what they decided yesterday that they wanted it to be today, today they will change their minds as to what they will want it to be tomorrow, and absolutely no-one in direct services management will get any real say in that, no matter how much anyone pretends that they do. Least of all the ‘front line troops’. Politicians drive what happens. They want the kudos when things go well. They will run over anyone, absolutely ruthlessly, including their own kind, when things go wrong.
And, you made me smile, looking back to when, not so long ago, after 50+ continuous hours in the office, I was getting a bawling out because something which had been deadlined for noon wasn’t done until 12.30 – not through my fault either. I wish that you had been there to tell me that I had a ‘cushy little number’
- Fat Steve
January 12, 2015 at 4:01 pm -
@Ho Hum The management teams of most Trusts will have Medical Directors, Directors of Nursing, and varied other Professional Services
You are right but those chosen are invariably apparatchiks …..management toadies if you like.
For Chrisake which Doctor worth their salt would choose management over their profession unless they disliked it or wern’t very good at it and which management would endanger their existence with someone who was likely to disagree with them.
Its when Management and Health Professionals face the Politicians and get their act in order that there might be some prospect of progress- Fat Steve
January 12, 2015 at 4:12 pm -
Oh Ho Hum and a little anecdote to finish . Every time my wife has been faced with a management directive that she thought might affect the running of her department adversely she has asked management to visit her department and see it in action and how the directive might affect its running. Not once ….not once has her invitation been accepted. In fact I doubt she can recall any occasion when management has accepted her advice or that of her colleagues or staff save when she has successfully invoked clinical judgement and even then it only been grudgingly conceded when no contrary argument can be made.
- Fat Steve
- Fat Steve
- Ho Hum
- Cascadian
- Ho Hum
January 11, 2015 at 9:37 pm -
As an alternative, you could try:
Especially the last para in the letter
Of course, we could always ask our politicians to enact policies and laws to stop suitably qualified people going to such places – as well, I suppose, ones which compel them to work where told. We could then treat them as some sort of Health Terrorists if they do go, or refuse to otherwise comply. That would be exciting.
- Cascadian
- Cascadian
January 12, 2015 at 1:26 am -
So as an ex-health services professional tell me something, the “selfless volunteers” would appear to be using vacation time owed or perhaps banked overtime owed, does that mean that DFID are paying the “selfless volunteers” for “call-in” time at multiples of their normal hourly rate?
Contributors to the NHS are used to poor service, poor cost control, and lax management, why would they NOT believe that the directives you point to are also not being applied? Especially when the whole exercise has the whiff of a camoron PR extravaganza.
No matter what the answer, what they are doing in Sierra Leone does not fit my definition of “volunteer”.
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