The 'Pompey Lads'
The ‘Pompey Lads’ – its such a friendly nickname. It was bestowed with honour on the fine young men of Portsmouth who were killed in action on HMS Good Hope when she was sunk 100 years ago this month, with the loss of all 900 men aboard.
Now the media use it to describe the 5 disaffected Bangladeshi Britons who have travelled to Syria to join the ISIS Beheadists.
It seems to have been coined by the Sunday Times last year, so far as a cursory Google search will tell me; God knows why – presumably for the same reason the media feel the need to decontaminate those who steal a car, blind drunk, then rampage at high speed through their local district mowing all before them in order to earn the media tag of ‘Joy Rider’.
Quite why these five became ‘disaffected’ is the subject of much discussion. The popular view is that they are part of an ‘underclass’ that has been left out of Britain’s march to the promised land – yet that simply isn’t true.
Only two, Choukri Ellekhlifi, 22, and Mohammed el-Araj, 23, of the so far 23 reported dead had a criminal record or could be described as ‘under privileged’ – the others all had good jobs; working for Sky, in the computer industry, in banking, one turned out to be a North London estate agent as though that profession was not already sufficiently maligned. Those that were not of working age were well educated – Mehdi Hassan, the latest to be killed, was privately and expensively educated at one of the De Salle Brothers Catholic colleges – these aren’t young men who have been parachuted into British society from poor Madrasas in Bangladesh – they are the scion of Bangladeshi immigrants who have prospered in the UK.
“These people come from every background imaginable but when you compare Brits to other Europeans, it’s clear that those from this country tend to be better educated, more affluent, and have greater social mobility than their peers on the continent.”
Another popular view is that they have become enraged by the actions of the US and its allies, including the UK, and have signed up with ISIS to ‘kill infidels’ – but they are not stupid; they will know perfectly well that the nearest they will get to an American or British military objective is by gazing upwards 20/30 thousand feet into the sky – the people they will be targeting with those AK-47s they are so fond of posing with will be other Muslims, that’s who gets to walk around at ground level – you know, just like the ‘brothers’ they used to pray with back in the local Mosque at home. The sons of other Allah-fearing parents just like theirs.
Perhaps it is the lure of the famed 72 virgins? I hope they’ve tattooed their name on the side of their crown jewels – for when they, or what’s left of them, arrive at Allah’s Gate having been on the receiving end of a sidewinder missile, it is unrealistic to suppose that all parts will arrive simultaneously – they’ll be on a par with an Ikea kitchen….three ears, a left foot, and a promissory note that your pride and joy that you’d been stroking in nightly anticipation will be sent ‘as soon as stocks permit’. Some kind of rapture you’ll enjoy with those virgins making do with what’s left of an elderly goatherd’s shrivelled flaccid penis – or the left foot, that the accompanying diagram assures you will fit….
Who are these virgins that they are intending to defile anyway? The Allah-fearing sisters and daughters of their Muslim brothers? Maybe their own sisters and daughters? Those 23 Britons already use up 1656 virgins – they may run out before the intrepid Pompey lads get served…although I gather some of the British contingent have been sending home for takeouts before half time.
So what do I deduce is the prototype ISIS Beheadist?
A privately Catholic-educated North London estate agent with a lethal desire to wipe out fellow Muslim’s and a penchant for deflowering his brother’s sister? Not very Koranic is it?
Why is the British media doing the recruiting for this murderous bunch? Why are we being treated to stories about how Mehdi Hassan ‘loved his coco-pops‘ and was a ‘loving boy with a good heart wishing to help Syrians’ (quote from his mother ‘who didn’t want to be named’ – so no figuring out that Mrs Hassan’s son’s mother might be called……?) and interviews with Newsnight (Ifthekar Jaman via Skype).
Pity that sedition is no longer an offence in this country – thanks to the 2009 Coroners and Justice Act – I wonder why the Labour government thought it no longer necessary to have the ability to prosecute British citizens for inciting and persuading other British citizens to disaffection with our country? That law had been hanging around quite harmlessly for hundreds of years – and just when we need it – pooft! Gone.
Philip Hammond has suggested that returning Jihadists be charged with Treason – that seems a bit over the top – we are not technically at war with ISIS and our cuddly coco-pops loving Pompey beheadists are not threatening ‘the Crown’ – but Sedition would have come in handy.
- Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 11:15 am -
They would have to be from a reasonably comfy background to get out there, and be pretty confident of the wherewithal to get back, once the great game had been played. Back when the Arabs first started to spring I recall sitting bemused as a BBC interviewer excitedly discussed what was going on in the Square in Cairo with a man who “had been there only yesterday!”. The eye-witness excitedly spoke in a middle-English accent of how thrilling it was to be the people on the Square and how there must be hundreds of thousands of folk willing to rise. Encouraged by the excited BBC bod, who was obviously in thrall to this brave and committed activist, the chap then explained how after the weekend off, he’d be flying back on Monday and would be “back on the Square” by Monday evening…. Jidahists come in all shapes and sizes. Perhaps rather than a “sedition” law we just need a “mind your own fwking business law” but then I suppose if we had one of those there wouldn’t be an awful lot left for the politicians to do these days.
- GildasTheMonk
October 27, 2014 at 11:16 am -
Sedition…I had forgotten that one. But then it was never my area. I am perfectly happy with treason, although I accept my legal analysis may be a bit wonky!
I wonder if the original Pompey Lads would have thought their sacrifice well worth it, looking at Britain 100 years on…- Duncan Disorderly
October 27, 2014 at 11:55 am -
We can rely on Phil Hammond to have taken legal advice before coming out with his treason suggestion, can’t we?
- Duncan Disorderly
- Serengwalia
October 27, 2014 at 11:52 am -
Oh and before rest of the war techno-nerds pile in Anna, it’s unlikely to be a Sidewinder missile that renders our ground-borne jihadist terminally discorporate since that little beastie is for air to air combat against other flying machines. Perhaps a Paveway LGB or Brimstone missile would be more use – I really MUST get a life………
Young, stupid, irrational people….. as we all were once. Their bad luck to exist at a time when the siren voices can seduce through so many routes. A demagogues voice has so many other methods of reaching us now other than the printed word and being there. Refracted and honed by the skills of the marketers and psychologists. The supermarket run or Jihad ?
Give me the child and I will give you the man has come back to haunt the present with a vengeance
- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 11:59 am -
I would argue that there is a long and fairly noble British tradition of our brightest and best young men (and women) going off to fight for a cause, an ideology, to fight in a ‘just’ or ‘holy’ war. International Brigade? All those Oxbridge types who ended up spying (only warfare by a different name) for the Soviets? Indeed one might, with some justification, claim that the fact some of our finest young people are heading out to fight what they perceive as evil, helping those whom they regard as the Underdogs, is a mark of a true Brit- british values at their best and proof of the successful integration of their parents’s generation.
I dare say some of the Pompey Lads or the Beatles will return to this country , settle down with a nice girl and write some stunning poetry or pen a book that ends up on the GCE reading list (is an ability to read still required for a GCE?). Some may even become Radio 4 Journalists or “Thought For The Day” presenters.
- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 12:00 pm -
oh silly me, it’s ‘GCSE’ these days.
- Ho Hum
October 28, 2014 at 1:17 am -
Normally, I’d be at odds with much of what you write. I was so glad that others had time to respond properlt to some of the wilder stuff written about the WW2 bombing campaign yesterday
But on this, I can wholeheartedly agree. In fact, the International Brigade was the first thing that came to mind reading this, and I’d have mentioned them if you hadn’t already
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Don Cox
October 27, 2014 at 12:01 pm -
Too much emphasis is placed on the fact that these particular people have fallen for the “Islam” story.
They are typical cult victims – young, idealistic, puzzled offspring of well-off families. Good boys and girls who never gave any trouble.
They could equally have been trapped by Scientology, or extreme Animal Rights, or any other simplistic world view with a charismatic leader.
- JuliaM
October 27, 2014 at 4:01 pm -
Get back to me when Tom Cruise waves a severed head on YouTube, or the badger-huggers blow up a Tube train, eh?
- JuliaM
- Cloudberry
October 27, 2014 at 12:04 pm -
The Guardian: “Portsmouth’s Jami Mosque and Islamic Centre was attended by the “al-Britaini Brigade Bangladeshi Bad Boys”, also known as the Pompey Lads.” Perhaps this is what they called themselves. Guardian again: “[Pompey] became the good-tempered theme for the football terraces and soon attached itself to the town… the earliest written reference is to the football team.”
Possible similarities? From “Hooligans abroad: The behaviour and control of English fans in Continental Europe” (Google books)
“… throughout the 1960s, 70s and 80s, a small but relatively stable proportion of football hooligans has been employed in ‘affluent’, ‘middle class’ jobs. They may have been encouraged in recent years by the ‘style wars’ in football, by the opportunities for taking an organising role … and by the attractions of travel abroad. Some ‘middle class’ hooligans may have been encouraged in their football activities by their political leanings, perhaps particularly as they apply to racial politics and the politics of gender … Finally, the possibility cannot be discounted that some middle class males – as well as some of their less affluent counterparts – may find the macho character of hooligans and the violence and excitement associated with hooliganism sexually arousing.” - Robert the Biker
October 27, 2014 at 12:33 pm -
What astonishes me is the number of people trying to make excuses for these murderous pieces of shit. What? Do you think if you’re nice to them they’ll kill you last? I hope in my admittedly primitive way that they died screaming for their mothers, if only so that some of their fellow scum saw it and realised it is not always a cheap entertainment to twist the Lions tail.
I give no credence to this nonsense of ‘cults’ or ‘brainwashing’; these mutts grew up in a society (they reject ours remember) that glorifies a murderous paedophile, rapist, caravan raiding thug as the perfect man, for all times and places. They are only acting out the fantasies of their founder and following his murderous creed to the letter; they are big brave soldiers of allah when the ‘enemy’ is women and unarmed men, not quite so tough when resisted as the Kurds show.
Can we also lose this ‘British-Bangledeshi’ nonsense, they are not British in any way, they reject us so we should likewise reject them, preferably in a very final way.
Doubtless I will hear about what a savage I am yet again- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 1:05 pm -
“they are not British in any way, they reject us so we should likewise reject them”
Some undoubtedly reject the ‘Babylon’ (to borrow a term from another religious cult) but that doesn’t make them any less British. I make no bones about having been an active supporter of the Republican Cause as a young man. I was a card carrying member and if the situation in NI had gotten any worse I would have followed a call to arms from Mr. Adams, gotten myself a gun, made my way to the Island of Ireland and cheerfully gunned down any member of Crown Forces or Proddy Militias that got in my way….cheerfully cos I would have been fighting for a righteous cause AS I SAW IT and that’s what it comes down to; how we see things.
Was I any less British for it? No I don’t think so. Infact maybe more so. Brits stick up for the Underdog. We may, as a race, be pretty hopeless in the bedroom and the kitchen BUT give a young Brit a gun and tell him he will be protecting those weaker than himself…it’s the stuff Boys Own was made of.
- Robert the Biker
October 27, 2014 at 1:26 pm -
As you say Dwarf, it’s all down to how you see things. I presume you would have accepted that some people would have been on the other side and trying to kill you right back; I might well have been one of them as I don’t believe it would have stayed in Ireland, when has it ever?
The problem with this shower is they do not accept that there can possibly be any other opinion, they are right and everyone else is filth to be exterminated as soon as possible. We love the underdog, up until the point that it becomes apparent that they are just a murderous pile of crap who happen to be outnumbered; just because someone is losing doesn’t exalt them.
As to who is British, I do believe that you must judge on the actions of people; I guess you would have been horrified if you had been expected to not only fight the Crown Forces and the Protestants, but go by stealth and murder their families or take them for your personal slaves. Would you have considered it beyond the pale (deliberate joke) if they had done it back? I suppose being fair you remained British with some odd ideas :-). This shower in isis or whatever flavour it is this week are NOT, they are an utterly alien culture who reject ours in a way the Irish never did, a bit of good will on both sides would have sorted the troubles in about a week, because we are not really that different; perhaps that’s why we fight so much – no one hates like family.
As for being hopeless in the bedroom, speak for yourself!- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 1:49 pm -
” you remained British with some odd ideas ”
The holding of ‘odd ideas’ being the ultimate symptom of Britishness…that and owning a shed or buggering the maid.
” but go by stealth and murder their families ” I hope I would have been able to resist the ideological seduction of the ‘giving them a taste of their own medicine’ (to quote someone yesterday) but, hand on heart, I know that in the right circumstances I could have killed innocents. Once you believe that your cause justifies you taking life then it is a very easy to slip down slope into dropping bombs from a great height onto women and children or gunning down abortionists (another righteous cause of my youth).
- Robert the Biker
October 27, 2014 at 2:03 pm -
“The holding of ‘odd ideas’ being the ultimate symptom of Britishness…that and owning a shed or buggering the maid. ”
You forgot building your own car out of bits or collecting Victorian lawnmowers
As to buggering the maid, I think you might find it more enjoyable if you turned her over!
And yes, the glory of a truly righteous cause has probably led to more atrocity than all the dribbling loons combined through all of history. Once make your enemy a lesser being, a beast fully deserving of whatever happens, and you can do absolutely anything with a clear conscience; I have often wondered how many SS men were outright bastards at the start? It’s a trap I could fall into myself, I shall have to watch for that.- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 3:17 pm -
“or collecting Victorian lawnmowers”
Nothing remotely ‘odd’ or ‘british eccentricity’ about that, now excuse me please i need to get back to cataloging my collection of Victorian/Edwardian tobacco leaf cutters and cigarette injectors before the wife needs the laptop to colour code her post cards scans collection ( i swear that woman has every letter she was ever sent).
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 8:41 pm -
Rightly or wrongly Blocked dwarf I identify a kindred spirit in you if for no other reason than a shared interest in Sacher Torta but yes I do have in my possession a very fine Victorian Concinum for making my own cigarettes which I used frequently when Turkish Tobacco was available in Britain —-till the E.U banned its import on some pretext or another
- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 8:55 pm -
@Fat Steve, you are aware, I hope, that one can order whole Oriental tobacco leaf online for pennies compared to UK Duty Paid shag prices, shred it oneself at home and then kick back and enjoy a smoke far superior to anything commercially made since about ’75…that’s 1875 btw! I love my very battered concinum and they still fetch good money on ebay, usually about 10 times what their tacky plastic descendants cost new and there is a reason for that.
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 10:17 pm -
Yes I guessed correctly that apart from a shared interest in Sacher Torta (and the good life generally ) and a distaste for bombing civilians indiscriminately (I think drones are a vast improvement on carpet bombing) your reference to Victorian smoking paraphernalia betrayed possession of that prize possession—- a concinum –I have owned mine since I was a pretentious 20 year old so I could I could hold forth on the joys of Turkish tobacco —actually something which my chums at the time and since have agreed with —I have tried stuffing tubes but that destroys the pleasure of smoking for me —a bit like Mr Kiplings cakes after a Sacher Torta prepared in Mittel Europe
- Robert the Biker
October 28, 2014 at 10:09 am -
I confess to having no idea what that is all about, but regarding cheap plastic alternatives to older solid items, that seems to be the case with almost everything. I have a pipe reamer to go with my carved South African pipe (a Pangolin or some such) I am not a smoker but just liked it; I doubt if they could even make it today under a hundred quid.
The brand is being cheapened everywhere you look, a Harley Davidson up to about 1969 was a seriously well built and solid piece of kit that you could rebuild almost indefinitely from the factories oversize parts. Nowadays, they are on the verge of being throwaway items, complete crankshaft at hideous expense instead of a replacement shaft or pin and honing the existing bushes to fit, throwaway rockers instead of a replacement bush, it’s a scandal
- Robert the Biker
- Fat Steve
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Fat Steve
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Robert the Biker
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Robert the Biker
- Bunny
October 27, 2014 at 6:01 pm -
My Uncle when injure fighting in Burma happily admitted to calling for his Mother when he was injured in combat, that would be the normal thing to do, somehow this lot and normal doesn’t ring true.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Ms Mildred
October 27, 2014 at 12:41 pm -
Why are some young people ‘irrational’ and others are not? These young men went out to fight against their own kind surely? Maybe they were killed by their own kind in a confusing, deeply sad war. The black clad Jihadists look very temptingly intimidating and powerful. They took advantage of the Syrian mess, and over ran a weakened and divided Iraq, deprived of its vicious ruler who had forcibly cemented any opposition together. They got carried away by the disastrous so called Spring. It is ever so that a big war provides impetus for Russian revolutionaries and Irish ones too. They both kicked off during WW1. It is a kind of chain reaction seemingly. These youngsters got caught up in this process at uni, on the internet, at the mosque, media influences and at gatherings of like minded friends. As pointed out it is a lot easier for young minds to be turned to mischief and killer causes than ever before in history. How can we prevent this happening when posh Oxbridge men took secretly to communism and gave away our secrets? No lessons learned…and unintended consequences on the rampage!
- Robert the Biker
October 27, 2014 at 1:03 pm -
The only thing I might point out, is that they do NOT regard them as their own people, in the absence of a ‘kuffar’ – infidel, a sunni will regard a shia as the lowest form of animal, and vice versa. Islam is quite capable of destroying itself if left to it’s own devices, the longest lasting countries in the ME are usually all one or the other, certainly as far as state power goes.
As regards the Russians and Irish, the Russian Revolution is remembered because it succeeded, the boyars and moujiks had been at daggers drawn for years uncounted, with the Cossacks used to enforce the will of the Tsar. It was only the horrific losses of WW1 that left the Tsar powerless coupled with German backstabbing with shipping Lenin out that kicked it off. The Irish had been going off sporadically for centuries, Edmund Fitzgerald in 1798 is a good example, followed by the Fenians, the Irish Dynamiters of Victorian times, up to 1916, when the had a revolution rather than wait till wars end when Irish independence had been promised by Parliament; they prefered a split country with years of hatred to anything given by the hated English.
You are one hundred percent right about never learning lessons from history.- Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 1:29 pm -
* Islam is quite capable of destroying itself if left to it’s own devices *
It’s been be doing a far better job of it since the rest of the world joined together to try and help…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_combatants_in_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
- Moor Larkin
- Robert the Biker
- JimS
October 27, 2014 at 12:58 pm -
I understand that the purpose of ISIS is “Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres” – (“In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others.”) or ‘decimation’ as practiced by the Roman army or killing of apostates, as sanctioned by mainstream ‘moderate’ Islam.
Purging out the waverers before they start on the rest of us. - Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 12:59 pm -
Interesting take on “Freedom Fighters” on Adam Curtis’ most recent Blog.
“Meanwhile Abdullah Ocalan was helping to create horror on a vast scale in Turkey. The war he had started had become a nightmare. By the mid 1990s nearly 40,000 people had been killed – the majority of them Kurdish civilians. The very people the PKK were fighting to liberate.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-One - Dr Cromarty
October 27, 2014 at 1:11 pm -
Not very Koranic is it?
That’s the problem, Anna. It’s all VERY Koranic, very Mohammedan.
- English Pensioner
October 27, 2014 at 1:37 pm -
I take a rather different view on this subject. Surely it would be best if the media did not report these deaths as it may discourage others from going. Whilst on the surface this might be considered a good thing, they might turn their anger (or whatever it is) against UK targets, so, from our point of view, they are best elsewhere.
This effectively was what happened in Canada, the two soldiers were killed by extremists who had had their passports withdrawn – far better to have let them have had passports and refused them re-entry if the survived.- Joe Public
October 27, 2014 at 2:11 pm -
“….far better to have let them have had passports and refused them re-entry if the survived.”
Absolutely.
And far more pragmatic than Hammond’s suggestion that returning Jihadists be charged with anything, ‘cos that necessitates re-entry into the UK.
It’s also ‘interesting’ that nearly all those Muslims committing the ‘worst’ terrorist atrocities worldwide, are ‘converts’. They have a need to ‘prove’ themselves.
- Joe Public
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 1:46 pm -
It might be something of an idea to enquire of the jihadists themselves why they join ISIS rather than making too many presumptions as to reasons (disaffected youth or the rewards of paradise or whatever)—I don’t venture opinion their reasons will be cogent or cohesive but that is to rather miss the point which is I think is that they are (presently) convinced by them. My own best provisional guess is that it is a reaction to what they see as the poverty of ambition of western society in that western cultural ambition appears limited to materialism and manifests itself most publicly in all the things that many of the commentators on this site (including myself) bitch about.—-essentially all that is wrong about MSM —distortion of the truth , pressure groups seeking advantage through victim status , the glorification of celebrity etc. Identify the cause and address it (not necessarily giving in to it) and you might stop the effects.
I do however comment that the Blair/Bush war in Iraq embarked upon for not totally convincing reasons but justified by neo con philosophy of what was judged ‘good’ by ‘the elect’ may be seen by many as something of a turning point in history—–not just for Islamists —-the moment perhaps when it became adequately safe to conclude that the political classes in the West were not to be believed —or perhaps rather more than that —-perhaps never to be believed,actively distrusted even despised and dismissed as manipulative and motivated by reasons that can only be guessed —and once the guessing game starts answers found are likely to be simplistic and invoke anger —-and anger leads to violence of varying degrees.
Sedition laws are I suggest predicated on certain shared core values—- something that a multi cultural society can only struggle with —tolerance being something of a two edged sword though a wish to establish the truth as a starting point to any matter is a shared phenomenon to just about all cultures.- The Blocked Dwarf
October 27, 2014 at 2:02 pm -
“It might be something of an idea to enquire of the jihadists themselves why they join ISIS rather than making too many presumptions as to reasons (disaffected youth or the rewards of paradise or whatever”
Far too sensible an idea, it will never catch on…and I can only take so many ‘innits’ and ‘yknows’ in a sentence before needing to throw something at the radio. “Coz da Profit, peace be upon ‘im, ‘e was like DA feckin MAN, innit, y’know brof?”
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 3:04 pm -
@ Blocked Dwarf —a pessimistic view of humanity—possibly not wrong —-but before acting upon it I would prefer to be certain in case in so doing I made matters worse. So why might I question the pessimistic view? well Anna’s recent essay on Dud’s army might give me an entry to my point. The feckless residuum whose language you peerlessly and amusingly parody in your second paragraph are the last to volunteer for anything other than a free hand out and presently I am unconvinced (but I could be wrong that is why I would like enquiries made) that travelling to wage Jihad is motivated by that mind set.
But I think a safe conclusion and starting point can be postulated and that is that the present Western Liberal Democratic Model is less stable and universal an ideal than theory might suggest —perhaps a Catholic in Ulster in the 1960s might have concluded the same based on individual outcomes.
I personally doubt the end of history with the present western model of a liberal democracy and pray in aid events since the turn of the century –whether it will adapt and compensate and endure in modified form or go the way of other models of the 20th Century and before I don’t know but its survival is no more an historical certainty than the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, the Divine Right of Kings or the Supremacy of the Calvinist Elect.
- Fat Steve
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Joe Public
October 27, 2014 at 2:20 pm -
The British & French must shoulder much responsibility for the turmoil in the middle east.
After victory in WW1, we created ‘countries on a map simply by drawing straight lines on the map that totally ignored cultural & religious differences. The Sykes–Picot Agreement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement
Similarly to the way Africa was carved up, ignoring tribal boundaries.
The results have been endless internecine struggles.
- Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 2:40 pm -
I sometimes wonder if the Cold War ever happened. It’s patently clear that all the unstable States are the inheritors of Soviet dictatorships, with the one exception of Iran, which of course liberated itself from the yoke of Uncle Sam to it’s own universal sufferage since.
- Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm -
addendum…………. not that Iran seems to be “unstable” at all, just not to our liking much of the time.
- Moor Larkin
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 3:27 pm -
@Joe Public ref Sykes Picot –an entirely valid point —to a resident of an ex colonial state cut off from his kin (say a Kurd in Iraq or Syria) or a Biafran lumped together with the rest of Nigeria including the Muslim North it can only be explained by a wish to divide and rule and disempower to enable the ex Colonial Powers to successfully exploit (I don’t buy into this analysis but neither do I discount it totally) —and of course the answer comes back ‘rubbish’ we gave you your country back and we give you the ideal of democracy which works in all circumstances at all times however diverse the populace if you practice it as we tell you it should be practiced—- how dare you question our gifts to you —look we will show you how its done —–watch us in Iraq —or not as the case appears to have been.
- Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 4:39 pm -
” most of Mesopotamia, eastern Anatolia, and northeastern Syria (comprising large parts of what is meant to be Kurdistan), stayed under intermittent Ottoman rule for many centuries after the Treaty of Zuhab, virtually until the aftermath of World War I.”
“After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Allies contrived to create several countries within its former boundaries – according to the never-ratified Treaty of Sèvres, Kurdistan, along with Armenia, were to be among them. However, the reconquest of these areas by the forces of Kemal Atatürk (and other pressing issues) caused the Allies to accept the renegotiated Treaty of Lausanne and the borders of the modern Republic of Turkey – leaving the Kurds without a self-ruled region.”
As always, wikileaks disrupts the tidiness the story.
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 5:23 pm -
I speculate Moor Larkin that having fought the First World War (seen in the immediate post war years as the Great War rather than viewed now as just a precursor to the Second World War) and procured victory at the price paid —and no great change of heart in Europe as to the propriety of Colonialism it would be unusual if the victors did not look in the first instance to protection of their own interests rather than ‘nation building’ in Third World countries —that I suggest might have been the last thing on their list of priorities —a pios afterthought at best. We tend to forget India was the Jewel in the Crown of Empire and needed to be protected at all costs and there was a prominent foreign policy theory that domination of Central Asia and with it vast resources and concomitant power could only be achieved (at that time remembering Russia was greatly weakened by revolution) by a powerful Central European Power. Of course the Law of unexpected consequences threw up the Soviet Union and the Second World War —and another fine mess in terms of stability –and the fall of the Soviet Union yet another at least in terms of stability —-I speculate a Caliphate is worrying to the West because of the stability to offers and hence a challenge to its interests though I venture no opinion that the value of sort of stability offered by ISIS to any one living under it.
- Moor Larkin
October 27, 2014 at 5:38 pm -
The protection of India was what The Great Game was all about. Oddly enough there was a decent radio prog at the weekend about how many Indians joined up to fight the Great War on behalf of the Empire, especially near the end when Britain was running out of cadavers. However, the ‘Indian Intelligentsia” did this on the basis that the Indians would then begin to be granted Home Rule after the war. Gandhi was a supporter of such recruitment.
- Fat Steve
October 27, 2014 at 8:18 pm -
@ Moor Larkin I was thinking less of the Great Game but more along the Macinder ‘Heartlands’ theory and the notion of the Geographical Pivot of History. I am no Historian or Geo Politician but I find the theory attractive mainly because it appears British Foreign Policy has always been directed since before Napoleonic times to ensuring no European Power became dominant and thereby could come to threaten Britain directly and given that Britain (by itself) is hardly a great prize)but thereon to its colonial interests (which were seen as such) and a similar objective would appear to be congruent with British Foreign Policy in the Middle East less to only protect India (as you say the writing may have been on the wall about Home Rule/Independence) but more to have access to raw materials in particular oil by denying total control over them to others though control of the Middle East together with France may have given power to deny access to others. .
Perhaps a little cynical on my part I do wonder if the predicted American self sufficiency in energy (some say as soon as 2017) might not have something to do with what might be seen as something of a change of emphasis of American Foreign Policy in the Middle East —-away from stability enforced by oppressive regimes and on to something rather different.
- Fat Steve
- Moor Larkin
- Fat Steve
- Moor Larkin
- Moor Larkin
- Henry the Horse
October 27, 2014 at 2:37 pm -
The idealistic young have always taken up arms where they have perceived injustice to be done. I find it hard to draw a clear line that distingushes these men from those that went and fought, for both sides, in the Spanish civil war. Orwell came back from fighting with the anarchists but it didn’t mean he went out and tried to start an anarchist revolution here. I think those that survive will come back older and wiser. I worry Anna with her sedition laws is doing what the mainstream media always do whenever a problem is percived, that is demanding a legal solution. You only have to look back at the last twenty years to see what a mess that has got us in.
- Engineer
October 27, 2014 at 4:07 pm -
Those 72 virgins have been busy these last few years, haven’t they? Barely a moment’s peace! I like the IKEA kitchen analogy, too. Allah with an Allen key….
There’s always been a small proportion of young men itching for adventure of one sort or another. In my youth, it was Mods and Rockers knocking lumps out of each other, or rival gangs of (ahem) football supporters. Some of the beter intellecually equipped ones went off to fight in the Spanish Civil War (though that was somewhat before my youth!), and shortly after, they got all the adventure they wanted and more harrying Hitler and his minions. The worrying thing about the yoof of today is that the height of the ambition of a distressingly high proportion of them is to win Celebrity X-Factor Dancing on Ice and be ‘rich and famous’ – instant wealth and adulation without doing any work for it. (Thankfully, we still have a more level-headed majority who just get on with life – as indeed, we always have had!)
- Joe Public
October 27, 2014 at 5:41 pm -
The major difference between the examples you cite, is that the aggression was between polarised groups. With the jihadists, it’s simply them vs everyone else.
- Engineer
October 27, 2014 at 10:57 pm -
Maybe. Quite a few of these ’causes’ are pretty thin in retrospect, but are all-consuming to their followers at the time. The current one is a bit nastier in it’s manifestation, though, I grant you.
- Engineer
- Joe Public
- Cascadian
October 27, 2014 at 6:27 pm -
Oh me. oh my what a difficult problem. What possibly could be the common factor linking jihadists in England, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Indonesia, Canada, Australia and for all I know Mongolia. It is so, so, very, very difficult for the politicians and their well-funded, listen-to-everybodies-communications-in-real-time-security-agencies to discern.
I feel I owe it to them as an act of kindness to reveal that common thread, but before I do, let me say I have no great insight, plenty of people know this, the big problem is that camoron and his like-minded socialists wish to avoid being nasty or worse blame a section of society by religion, skin colour or other such nonsense.
It’s the MOSQUES stupid! Yes I know the politicians believe they are merely places of worship despite all rational analysis and intelligence. Sure the boneheads who eventually end up as daesh (google it) may have been recruited on twitter but the logistics of providing plane tickets and instructions is facilitated through the MOSQUES. Treat the MOSQUES as enemy territory, close down a few, raze a few to the ground and generally send the message that islam is incompatible with our beliefs-we do not wish to be enslaved by islam-and progress can be made.
- Bill Sticker
October 27, 2014 at 9:16 pm -
I have a more prosaic suggestion which has nothing to do with faith or ideology.
Some people simply like the idea of killing. The cause is really not that important. They just want to kill an enemy. Any enemy. For their tribe. For belonging. For vindication or meaning. As a sex substitute.
Same as hunting.
- Engineer
October 27, 2014 at 10:53 pm -
Not sure about the hunting analogy. I think the hunting instinct is more to do with the ancient urge to provide food, and to protect the tribe and it’s interests. Hence, in the traditional sheepfarming areas, hunting is about predator control, pure and simple; all the county snob stuff about ‘riding to hounds’ just doesn’t apply. The Lake District fell packs don’t even use horses at all – everyone is on foot.
- Engineer
- binao
October 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm -
Might the problem be the age old one of a lot of lads being a bit wet and easily influenced?
I can’t think of any kind of crusade or belief today apart from Islam that would draw people in, so that’s going to be the one.
What else is there?
Given the culture, perhaps the wonder is that the numbers involved aren’t much greater. - Frankie
October 27, 2014 at 10:27 pm -
‘…I wonder why the Labour government thought it no longer necessary to have the ability to prosecute British citizens for inciting and persuading other British citizens to disaffection with our country?’
Because they are utter twerps and Labour has a perverse history of rewriting our legislation with a largely unfortunate result. It would not be beyond the wit of man to reinstigate this offence. After all, it fits the bill. Good article Anna.
- Ancient+Tattered Airman
October 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm -
I can’t see the Daleks tolerating this form of nonsense! Unfortunately we are not allowed by the laws of this land to exterminate them.
- Griffin
October 27, 2014 at 10:56 pm -
Young men like adventure. Look at how our forefathers flocked to the colours in 1914 before the horrors of that war became apparent. The deluded Islamist “jihardists” of our times are undoubtedly also moved by a warped version of their religion. Perhaps criminality is a strong factor too, in the case of ISIS, as there are clearly opportunities for their followers to profit from looting. And I have no doubt that some of them, coming from societies in which most women are secluded, will be attracted by the prospect of taking female captives. (As in Rotherham indeed only more so).
- AdrianS
October 27, 2014 at 11:56 pm -
I think it’s very sad for the families left behind, who have to pick up the pieces of this lot. A terrible waste of young life.
Equally why do the young Muslims feel so disenfranchised with the western society which gives them a good life?
War is a terrible thing - Ian B
October 28, 2014 at 1:30 am -
I think it’s just cultic thinking. Cultic thinking can be found in religions of course, but in political ideologies and all sorts of movements. It’s just a matter of a person joining some very powerfully defined “ingroup”, and once they do that they’ll do pretty much any stupid thing on behalf of the ingroup. It just so happens that this ingroup is particularly militarily focussed. Ask why people have joined the Moonies, Scientology, numerous Marxist groups, and so on. Same thing. You join the group, it suddenly means everything to you, it’s your whole life, and it’s “us” versus “everyone else”. Very common human behaviour. The surprising thing to me is that people think there is something inexplicable about it.
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