Blair-faced Insults.
The humble memory stick lured Blair out into the open yesterday, or rather, 160 of them.
As news of their contents spread through the western intelligence world – the names of all the foreign fighters enrolled in the psychopathically murderous ISIS jihadists currently strolling at will through his ‘democratically restructured’ Iraq, to say nothing of the billion dollar oil deals, and bank raids that have left ISIS probably the best financed mercenary force in existence – he emerged to line up his excuses before the firing line of public opinion.
With the benefit of hindsight, he says the ‘Arab spring’ uprisings ‘would have swept across Iraq anyway’ and therefore whether he had decided to go to war in 2003 or not was ‘irrelevant’.
So it is a bizarre reading of the cauldron that is the Middle East today, to claim that but for the removal of Saddam, we would not have a crisis.
Or to put it another way – had he decided not to go to war, the situation would be exactly the same as it is today. So that makes it irrelevant?
Except it doesn’t, does it? 179 fine young British lads would still have been celebrating Father’s Day yesterday, sinking a pint in the Dog and Firkin; another 5,970 of them wouldn’t have been swallowing the pain killers or painfully learning to walk again/live without their eyesight/one or both of their legs. It must be a great comfort to their family and friends to know that their sacrifice was for ‘irrelevant’ reasons.
I imagine the 4,486 american families who only received a plastic bag full of their father’s and brother’s and husband’s remains might be a tad angry to learn that their loss was ‘irrelevant’ too; the 500 amputees presumably ‘hopping’ mad – we can make that 1500 if we include those who lost an arm rather than a leg; and another 32,000 for whom life will never been the same again. ‘Irrelevant’?
Now he thinks that it is imperative that we deal with this new threat. The threat that was starkly revealed in those 160 USB sticks.
“Already the security agencies of Europe believe our biggest future threat will come from returning fighters from Syria. “
‘Returning fighters’. Ah, you mean they have British passports? They are British citizens? Surely that is the only reason they will be ‘returning to us’? Why not say so? Was that another of your ‘irrelevant’ decisions?
“People shy away from the starkness of that statement.”
He seems to do a pretty good job of shying away from the starkness of his own statements. As far as I am aware, the only way to ensure that a British citizen or passport holder doesn’t return to these shores is to either lock him up securely for life in foreign climes, or blast him to smithereens in the desert…you could, of course, since you do now know who they are, revoke his passport and citizenship. Which option does Blair prefer?
“Where the extremists are fighting, they have to be countered hard, with force. This does not mean Western troops as in Iraq. There are masses of responses we can make short of that. But they need to know that wherever they’re engaged in terror, we will be hitting them.”
So, hidden in the rhetoric, he is recommending the ‘blasting them to smithereens’ in the desert option. Bombing ‘peace loving’ British Muslims – that’s sure to help the situation we now find ourselves in.
At the heart of the Middle East situation is an inheritance row that makes Jarndyce v. Jarndyce look like a two minute wonder. Since the Prophet Muhammad died 1,400 years ago, his followers have been divided over who should carry the torch forward – and who gets receipt of the Zakāt. Some favoured Abu Bakr, a close friend of the Prophet – they became known as the Sunnis. Another group firmly believed that Muhammad had already indicated that he wanted his cousin and son-in-law Ali to take over from him. Ali’s cheer leaders came to be known as ‘Shiites’.
Since the Zakāt amounts to a minimum of 2.5% of the earnings of all Muslims worldwide, it is no surprise that they have been fighting cat and dog over Muhammad’s inheritance for 1,400 years and will continue to do so. Jarndyce v. Jarndyce restricted itself to ‘heads of claims’ – Sunnis v. Shiites prefer to use real heads. Including those of infidels, if they are unwise enough to step into this Tort-uous fray.
The British did step into this fray, with rulers, compasses and protractors, many years ago. They decided to divide up the desert court room into neat little nations, so that they could have a compliant ‘Ruler’ in each, one that would accept their chosen price for the riches hidden in the sand. Either side of their neatly drawn lines were left varying numbers of supporters of the two camps.
Periodically, we’ve issued the most up to date pitchforks to one side or the other. Sometimes we have a fit of morality, and give them pots of gold instead and then turn a blind eye when they buy pitchforks from another tribe with the money.
Tony Blair had the bright idea of importing some of the combatants to Britain, working on some half baked theory that they would knuckle down and work hard to support the pensioners his mate Gordon had just denuded of their self provided support system. Then he had the bright idea of sending some fine young British lads out to blast their cousins to smithereens. Brilliant thinking!
He’s quite right, they would still be fighting cat and dog whatever he’d decided back in 2003, but that doesn’t mean he’s not to blame. He made the decision to get involved. Yet again.
Now he wants to bomb ‘British Muslims’ in the desert, to stop them returning here as a ‘threat’. Does anybody think that will help?
Your suggestions….?
- Dioclese
June 16, 2014 at 8:29 am -
We could try bombing Blair?
- Engineer
June 16, 2014 at 8:52 am -
About a decade and a half too late for that, I fear.
- Engineer
- Sigillum
June 16, 2014 at 8:52 am -
This was much on my mind yesterday. There is a particular formula of tweet on Twitter which was much applied: it goes something like this:
“What Iraq needs is a ruthless dictator who can hold the country together by force – oh hang on…!” And indeed there is irony in that observation. It is indeed another irony that a war supposedly based on preventing weapons of mass destruction being placed in the hands of terrorists such as Al Qaeda now sees large parts of that country in the hands of a group that makes Al Qaeda look like Fathers for Justice.
I was at the time persuaded by Blair. The case was well spun and he is a plausible character – that is what makes him dangerous. It may be interesting to note that Blair was against the Falklands War; he was in pacifist mode at the time. He appears to have noted how good successful wars are for politicians, and changed his mind.
I can’t help but feel that Blair’s reaction to this is in anticipation of a lot of flack that is about to come his way, as in: “excuse me Tony, don’t you have some questions to answer, some responsibility for all this?”
I think Blair perceives this danger and wants to get his spin in first.
And yes, this has implications for poor old Blighty. In the end the social dynamic of the Middle East, Asia and North Africa is characterized by religious fanaticism, sectarianism, bigotry and cruelty. And as a culture it has now been imported en masse into the UK. Over the weekend I read with some shock but no surprise what had been going on in Schools in Birmingham. The danger is not over there, it is here. But our politicians dare not say it. - Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 8:54 am -
Not sure it’s just about Blair. There seems to be a liberal caucus camped around “Human Rights” that is determined to deliver this nebulous construct to people’s who haven’t even managed to achieve Civil Rights – even if it kills those people. Meanwhile that same liberally-minded zealotry is undermining Civil Rights we are lucky enough to have gained through the centuries partly due to the wars of the past, which wars are frequently vilified by the war-mongers of the present. It’s all very confusing, but the core of the problem seems to be the undermining of the rights of any Nation State to do what it wants, within it’s own borders and the consequent responsibility upon those within those borders to put their own house in order, for the sake of their own kith and kin.
And then, there is also the influence of folk like Rumsfeld, who pull the strings of the hapless and insecure politicians and have no political object in mind other than the enhancement of their own prestige or place in “history”.
- erichardcastle
June 17, 2014 at 5:26 am -
Anyone, as I unfortunately have, who has dealt with a true sociopath / psychopath for any length of time will see that the Iraq War was driven by a number of sociopaths in power acting for vested interests.
Psychopaths are in the news a lot these days but I’m not sure that most people understand how destructive they are and how society is full of them in all walks of life.
Politics seems to be attractive to them because it is the art of often telling people what they want to hear and staying ‘on message’ the entire time. Non sociopaths like you and me have our heads full of all sorts of things to a greater and lesser degree but a sociopathic politician can stay completely focused at all times and are usually brilliant readers of the desires of their chosen victim- often the electorate.But admitting failure or that they are wrong is never in the equation : so when a million people take to the streets in Britain to beg not to invade Iraq , they are dismissed.
Tony Blair exhibits all the traits of a sociopath, the superficial charm, the ‘never wrong’ attitude and the ability to take down all around him including his political party. History is full of these characters. Any shrink will still tell you the best advice when encountering a psychopath on any level : run, run as fast as you can and don’t look back.
- erichardcastle
- Engineer
June 16, 2014 at 9:08 am -
Invading Iraq in 2003 was a mistake, but having made that mistake we compounded the problem by making another – leaving too early. The lesson we should learn from all this (it applies to Afghanistan, too) is that if you invade someone’s country for whatever reason (and you don’t do that without VERY good reason), you have to stay long enough to ensure that whatever institutions of security and governance grow to replace the tyranny have sufficient time to firmly take root, and can resist ‘insurgencies’ by fanatics and militants. You leave when the country is strong, stable, self-governing and self-confident, not when it’s still arguing about what sort of government to try.
Sigillum makes a very good point when he says that as a result of all this the danger to this country is not primarily ‘over there’, it is is here. Ther current debate about British values may seem rather navel-gazing, but it’s really rather crucial to our immediate future. Until all accept that imposition of fundamentalist beliefs, of whatever stripe, are not British values, we have a problem. The fact that some politicians will not accept this compounds the problem.
- GildasTheMonk
June 16, 2014 at 9:15 am -
Spot on.
- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 9:19 am -
I have a feeling that if we had invaded South Africa to put right the abusive Apartheid Regime thirty years ago, we’d still be there and that country would still be a shambles and there would be no way of us “getting out”. The only good wars on behalf of another nation are the interventions to eject an alien force from a host country. That is why the Falkland war and the Kuwait war were short, sharp and had a solution. WW2 took a bit longer but still only six years or so.
- Engineer
June 16, 2014 at 9:33 am -
I see your point, but Apartheid would never have been a problem curable by invasion. The Afghanistan problem – a country so ravaged by conflict that it became a governmental vacuum and thus a safe haven for terrorists – might have been solved by invasion had we been prepared to go in with enough numbers to secure the whole country, and then been prepared to stay long enough to allow a stong and stable government to take root. As it is, we’re cutting and running too soon – the Taliban have only to wait until the US substantially withdraws, and it has in effect a vacuum to fill. Again. So – once again, imposition of fundamentalist Islam, the shielding of terrorist organisations, and a miserable life for the ordinary Afghan who just wants to get on with his (and perhaps more particularly her) life in peace. We’re back to where we were in 2001.
- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 9:44 am -
I well recall footage on the News Channels of “Terrorist Training Camps” someplace in the mountainous wastes of Nowhere, Afghanistan during the build-up to Operation 9/11 Revenge. If ever there was a good place to use the legendary tactical nuclear weapon, there was it, in plain sight and if the BBC could find them I can see no reason why the military couldn’t have done so.
So far as the Afghans are concerned, leave them alone. If any of them step over the line of their own territory kill them if you like. But if they stay in their own country, leave them alone and if they want to annihilate one another, that is their problem. Adam Curtis has done some fantastic blogs about Afghanistan, including how well the Afghans were doing before the Soviet Union decided to intervene as 20th century Internationalist Intervention projects began.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/tags/Afghanistan- Duncan Disorderly
June 16, 2014 at 10:35 am -
It is not understood even today what the Soviet Union was doing in invading Afghanistan: it was trying to remove a Communist bad guy! The guy the Soviets eventually put in charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Najibullah) seemed like a far more impressive fellow compared with Hamid Karzai . It didn’t end well for him.
- Duncan Disorderly
- Moor Larkin
- Engineer
- guthrie
June 25, 2014 at 10:05 am -
A bit late to this, but it is well documented that the USA totally fucked up the occupation in almost every way. Clinton spent millions on contingency planning for what to do after the invastion, using best practise examples (Germany, Japan) and the Bush cabal binned all that in favour of a short, cheap occupation with republican kids in their 20’s being handed ministries to run without any idea of what they were doing, market fundamentalism gone mad. Unsurprisingly it all went wrong.
Merely occupying a country is not enough, you have to rebuild civil structures and physical plant such as power generation; if they’d managed to get all the electricity back online in a month the Iraqi’s would have been much, much happier all round.
- GildasTheMonk
- Pericles
June 16, 2014 at 9:21 am -
What ever the rights and wrongs of the matter — and one might well argue that Gertrude Bell’s work in Mesopotamia in the wake of the Great War was an outstanding achievement, given the difficulty of reconciling the differences amongst the ‘tribes’ — the situation we see in the Near- and Middle-East and right across the ‘Muslim’ World is a reflexion of these peoples’ attitude to animals.
Schopenhauer and Gandhi are just two that have pointed out how close the link is between cruelty to animals and cruelty to humans.
All across the region in question animals are subject to ritual slaughter: something justified only by superstition of one sort or another. It is because of this that, except you come to the farm gate, you can no longer buy, e.g., lamb not halal. Ironically, if you want humanely slaughtered meat, you’d best confine yourself to pork!
ΠΞ
- Duncan Disorderly
June 16, 2014 at 10:22 am -
It is not understood that halal slaughter specifically meant to be less cruel. Modern methods of slaughter (with stun guns and a bolt to the brain) are likely to be less cruel still, but halal slaughter was surely a step up from the methods used in the middle east hundreds of years ago.
“Schopenhauer and Gandhi are just two that have pointed out how close the link is between cruelty to animals and cruelty to humans.”
The Nazi’s passed some extremely stringent laws on animal welfare.- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 10:46 am -
I recall reading an interview with Francis Ford-Coppola about the complaints he had over the cruelty of showing a real and “primitive” slaughter of a buffalo during the climactic scenes of his movie. He said he quite non-plussed since it was obvious from the footage that the animal was being pampered by it’s keepers as if it were just another day for glorious fodder-eating, and the animal was totally unaware of a blade that was so hard and sharp it entirely severed the spinal cord in it’s neck instantly, as efficiently as a French guillotine.
- Pericles
June 19, 2014 at 7:14 pm -
“… halal slaughter specifically meant to be less cruel.”
When Muhammad — peace be upon him &c. — was concocting his new religion, he copied much from both Judaism and Christianity; I’m not convinced he had animal welfare in mind. (That said, a story is told of his having spared a camel that his henchmen wanted to kill for having brought a carrier of bad news.)
‘Halal’ means — and, as far as I know, has only ever meant — allowed; cf. ‘haram’: forbidden.
ΠΞ
- Moor Larkin
- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 10:32 am -
I think I read someplace that all British chicken is classifiable as Halal (or kosher), on the premise that the chicken’s feet are hooked into a spring-loaded clamp, and they are then lifted through a high-speed band-saw that quickly chops their head off and their blood drains out as they dangle upside-down along the processing line. It could just be an urban myth however.
- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 11:12 am -
Now I come to think of it, I remember my mother telling me that when she was evacuated in WW2 the local farmers would slaughter a pig at night, to avoid the authorities requistioning their meat. Mum said she would be tasked to stir the bucket[s] of blood, which would be collected and used to make food too (black pudding I suppose). The pig was deliberately left alive so that the blood would pump out conveniently. They weren’t Muslim though, Welsh Methodism I think she said was the prevailing religion.
- Brian
June 16, 2014 at 10:48 pm -
A similar thing happened “somewhere in Warwickshire” in WWII as well. The village bobby helped carry the slaughtered and bled pig into the back kitchen of the farmhouse for butchering into joints. He covered it with his cape to shield it from enemy bombers, presumably. The local bobby’s involvement in what was then a serious crime (see A Private Function) is one of the best British Values – obeying the law except when it’s clearly daft to do so and not in anybody’s interest.
- Pericles
June 19, 2014 at 7:16 pm -
“… They weren’t Muslim though, Welsh Methodism I think she said was the prevailing religion.”
I don’t think cruelty to animals, including to humans, is the preserve of the religious. On the other paw ritual slaughter — as against the mere purposeless infliction of pain — does tend to be confined to religion.
ΠΞ
- Brian
- Jonathan Mason
June 16, 2014 at 5:51 pm -
I have seen halal chicken prepared in the Dominican Republic in this way. You pick up the bird, tie its feet together with string, hang it from a fence and then cut its throat with a sharp knife. You then dunk it in boiling water to loosen the feathers, and two people pluck, one at each end two handed. I never knew this was halal.
I suppose you could shoot them with a humane killer, but it would be hard to find the brain.
- Pericles
June 19, 2014 at 7:15 pm -
Part of the ritual is a prayer, the absence of which in most shambles would perhaps mean that not all chickens qualified. I don’t know how strictly that requirement is observed.
ΠΞ
- Moor Larkin
- GildasTheMonk
June 17, 2014 at 7:25 am -
Quite right Pericles – there is a clear link. Good point
- Duncan Disorderly
- David
June 16, 2014 at 9:32 am -
“Already the security agencies of Europe believe our biggest future threat will come from returning fighters from Syria. “
I bet they don’t think that in countries like Poland which have different minorities from us. - right-writes
June 16, 2014 at 9:48 am -
I did not until just now know about the Zakāt… I lazily assumed that they would have a plate, as I distantly remember when I was getting married in a church.
But this from Wikipedia:
“Today, conservative estimates of annual zakat is estimated to be 15 times global humanitarian aid contributions.”
is staggering…
Which Moslems are being helped with this money, since as I understand things, many of the world’s dispossessed and hungry, are Moslem? Or is this Zakāt in reality only used for evangelism (or whatever the Moslem equivalent is)?
As usual with mass movements, I suspect that the universal truth, is one of “Jam Tomorrow if you follow us and walk this way”, (cue Eric Morcambe…).
- Ms Mildred
June 16, 2014 at 9:57 am -
Best words against Blair I have ever read Anna. I was nearly chewing the carpet when Blair got elected in ’97. How could the British electorate be so easily conned by that contriver, that spinner of the word ‘new’, that deceiver? The thing about the eyes was so correct…much protested about…because it was true!!!I voted for a philandering local liberal that year, or near, in council elections, and Green in protest at the general election. Fed up with the grey Mr major. So I am not a dyed in the wool Con: When Blair festered the war in Iraq with the deceptively thick Bush, that shrub that should have been pruned, but was not pruned. Finishing off dad’s unfinished business; denying regime change as regime was changed. Now we have the apocalypse men rampaging and cutting off heads of their own co religionists. The excuse that police chiefs without heads are better than with heads does not appeal to anyone outside this primeval clique. This is when men are at their very worst They do need to be stopped, but by whom, how and when?
- Ed P
June 16, 2014 at 10:06 am -
The Zakat buys millions of AK47s, etc.
These desert games will continue until one side or the other goes nuclear, then it’s curtains for most of us.
I suggest a tug-of-war to resolve it all, with Blair tied in the middle, to be rent asunder like a wishbone.The British were up to their usual SNAFUs, mildly buggering up the Middle East. Then gung-ho Americans came trampling over the sands and made it ten times worse. Now it’s beyond resolution.
- JuliaM
June 16, 2014 at 10:09 am -
“Now he wants to bomb ‘British Muslims’ in the desert, to stop them returning here as a ‘threat’. Does anybody think that will help?”
Only if we manage to hit ’em…
- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 10:21 am -
We can get O’Bomber on the job. he’s good at at droning on about the triumph of the liberal consensus. Boom Boom.
- Moor Larkin
- the moon is a balloon
June 16, 2014 at 10:38 am -
Does the Zakat mandatory 2.5% come before or after the other mandatory 45%? Just asking.
My daughter asked me last night “Why are the people from the north of Iraq killing the poeple from the south of Iraq?” Why, indeed, kid. Answers on a 100-year-old postcard.
- Moor Larkin
June 16, 2014 at 11:23 am -
In my day I asked my dad why the people from the south of Ireland were killing the people from the north of Ireland.
- Don Cox
June 16, 2014 at 7:22 pm -
The people are killing each other because God is on both sides egging them on.
As for the Zakat — all organised religions are multimedia corporations whose primary aim is profit. Look at St Peter’s, or think how much money the Haj brings in to Arabia.
- Don Cox
- Moor Larkin
- binao
June 16, 2014 at 11:41 am -
Best and most concise explanation of the Sunni/ Shia schism I’ve seen.
And Blair?
Just the name gives me an instant recall of The Joker from Batman. Somebody’s cartoon has got into my head.
He seems to occupy a different reality, hard now to imagine him as a Prime, or indeed any kind of Minister.- Reimer
June 16, 2014 at 10:36 pm -
“hard now to imagine him as a Prime, or indeed any kind of Minister.”
Yes, much of the last thirty years of UK politics seems more like a noisy long-running soap-opera that has managed in post-modern style to displace the reality it was ostensibly commenting on. Blair’s immense success is hard to credit now, like a passing fad that ballooned in the manner of a star, and popped like sales of Buzz Lightyear toys.
- Reimer
- backofanenvelope
June 16, 2014 at 1:18 pm -
A friend of mine was appointed Town Major in Germany in 1945. He was given a ruined town, half a dozen squadies and some German POWs. He was told to maintain law and order, clear up the ruins and restore the services. He had absolute power and could use the German civil infrastructure as he saw fit. He was 23!
I thought that Blair and Bush would dig out the files and see how to go about restoring Iraq as they did Germany. But they didn’t – too much like hard work. And that is why we are we are today.
- Woody
June 16, 2014 at 2:01 pm -
“Now he wants to bomb ‘British Muslims’ in the desert, to stop them returning here as a ‘threat’. Does anybody think that will help?
Your suggestions….?”If he was willing to become a suicide bomber?
Two problems – one solution methinks.
- backofanenvelope
June 16, 2014 at 4:37 pm -
If we are determined to bomb something – I have a suggestion. Lets have a campaign to destroy pickup trucks. Any such vehicle seen on a road is a potential target. We could have prizes for pilots who destroy the most………..
- Don Cox
June 16, 2014 at 5:22 pm -
The comparison between Iraq and Syria is interesting. Both had Fascist dictators of extreme brutality. (Baathism was heavily influenced by Nazi ideas during WW II when Syria was a Vichy territory.)
The USA and its allies removed the Iraqi dictator, leaving the Syrian one in place.
Which area is currently in a worse condition ?
- John
June 16, 2014 at 5:30 pm -
You almost can’t blame Blair for the ridiculous interpretation of history and his reading of Middle East Politics because, setting aside for a moment the fact that he is a monumental liar, his entire life experience since leaving No10 has been a combination of stopping off at his fortressed multi-million pound residence in Connaught Square in between commuting between the various palaces of those Sheikhs and Russian/Chinese oligarchs to pay him so much money these days.
He doesn’t meet ordinary Britons. He doesn’t meet ordinary Arabs. I think he knows the Rothschilds quite well as they’re mates with Mandy as well, but the mistake the public and media make is in thinking that frankly he gives a toss what the little people think anyway, because he – Tony – was put on earth by God to save the rest of us from our own lack of enlightenment, and pocket as much money as he can along the way.
- Pericles
June 19, 2014 at 7:16 pm -
Indeed. ΠΞ
- Pericles
- Jonathan Mason
June 16, 2014 at 5:52 pm -
Blair has got too much of his information from the Murdoch press. Apparently he even listens to it in bed.
- Major Bonkers
June 16, 2014 at 7:25 pm -
“’…research by the BBC’s own favourite academic, Matthew Goodwin, says that at least 40% of Tory voters and 33% of Labour voters agree with the EDL…not only that but 50% of people believe that there will be a war between white British people and Muslims.’
From: http://biasedbbc.org/blog/2013/06/17/andrew-neil-mehdi-hasans-sock-puppet/”
- Mudplugger
June 16, 2014 at 7:33 pm -
The Middle East, as with much of Africa, suffers from the territorial line-drawings of the imperial forces from the 19th century onwards, e.g. Sykes-Picot et al, defining territory with straight lines, irrespective of any natural, tribal areas. Now that those ‘tribes’ finally have money and power, they are setting out to restore their natural territorial divisions. Then add the recent and unwelcome incomer, Israel, into the mix and the incendiary fuse is truly lit.
Some brain-dead bloke writing in the Daily Telegraph Letters on Saturday sought to justify Blair’s “courageous” 2003 invasion on the basis that Iraq had ignored UN Resolutions for decades and was suspected of having weapons of mass destruction. Using that as the benchmark, maybe we should expect a Blair-led invasion of Israel any time soon – but that won’t happen, as it seems different rules apply when party donations and the ‘guilt card’ are both in play.
Until those two key issues, tribal territory and Israel, are finally resolved, we shall not see peace in that region, nor be immune from its consequences spreading to our own shores.
- Jonathan Mason
June 16, 2014 at 7:44 pm -
My grandfather, believe it or not, was stoned to death by a mob protesting British interference in Mosul in 1939. (He had nothing to do with anything that they were protesting about.) You simply cannot ask a whole race of people to move from the stone age to the modern age within a few generations. It takes hundreds or thousands of years of gradual progress. I realize that Moslem civilisation did reach some early peaks ahead of Western Europe, but this probably only involved the 1% and not the 99%.
- binao
June 17, 2014 at 6:34 am -
Agreed J.M.
We might also remember that it’s less than 100 years since women got the vote here. (etc)
Easy for the pampered handwringing metro elites to deplore the inequalities & brutalities of various parts of the world. But pure hypocrisy to insist our present rights and freedoms are instantly transferable.
In Africa, tribe & extended family; in the Arab world Islam; often incompatible with our Western ideals.
We might do better just preventing establishment here. - Pericles
June 19, 2014 at 7:17 pm -
Quite so. And during that relatively brief period the cultured Muslim world managed to preserve much of the record we now have of ancient history.
ΠΞ
- binao
- plantman
June 16, 2014 at 7:52 pm -
Let me just check I’ve got this right. There’s a civil war going on between two rival ideologies (or “isms” if you prefer) Fuel is being added to the fire by the influx of materielle and bodies from outside who favour or support one ism over another.
The big worry here is that British Citizens who enlist to support, fight and if necessary, die for their chosen ism will, if they survive, return to this country as battle -hardened killer zealots who may want to carry on the fight attempting to get their ideology to rule and govern us?
Sounds just like Spain in the 1930’s to me. Whatever did happen to all those returning volunteers from the Red Brigades (popular Socialist heroes every one) Perhaps their takeover was just a bit longer term and subtle.
- Reimer
June 16, 2014 at 10:38 pm -
Applause.
- Jonathan Mason
June 16, 2014 at 10:39 pm -
Whatever did happen to all those returning volunteers from the Red Brigades (popular Socialist heroes every one) Perhaps their takeover was just a bit longer term and subtle.
Jack Jones became a trades-union leader, Will Paynter became General Secretary of the National Union of Miners, Stephen Spender a poet and academic, Laurie Lee wrote a few books of which Cider With Rosie is regarded as a minor classic, and a fellow called Blair who was shot through the throat on the Aragon front wrote a children’s book about a farm under the pen name of George Orwell.
- Reimer
- Engineer
June 16, 2014 at 9:58 pm -
Nobody suggesting that the UN step in and mediate, or send peace-keepers, I note.
Does anybody have anything but exasperated or amused contempt for the UN?
- Dr Cromarty
June 17, 2014 at 6:57 am -
I’m pretty sure none of Blair’s children nor any member of the cabinet that supported him in war have enter HM Armed Forces. Funny that.
- GildasTheMonk
June 17, 2014 at 7:41 am -
I have two questions upon which I wonder if our readers could assist me. First I listened to a radio phone in yesterday in which large numbers of people from the Middle East (albeit mostly living in the UK) all blamed Saudi Arabia for stirring up trouble and financing groups such as ISIS, and ISIS itself. I am aware that Saudi provides the ideological and financial source for much extremism, and funds a lot of stuff in the vein of fundamentalist education in Pakistan and so forth, but what more is going on?
Second, what is the logic of a “British Citizen” who has been free to come and go to fight in Syria turning, as it were, on Britain and launching acts of terror here. Or indeed, is there no logic – that being the point?
G the M
- Duncan Disorderly
June 17, 2014 at 8:09 am -
The FT has written a lot about Saudi Arabia financing the more religious rebels in Syria. Qatar has also done the same, mostly in the early stages of the conflict, in order to gain “global recognition and is merely the latest chapter in its attempt to establish itself as a major player in the region, following its backing of Libya’s rebels who overthrew Muammer Gaddafi in 2011.” See http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/86e3f28e-be3a-11e2-bb35-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz34sgaTx3m.
I suppose the issue with people going to Syria to fight is that they may gain experience and competence, the better to commit acts of terrorism here.
I’m quite curious about how Syria and now Iraq are going to play out now it seems the US are increasingly siding with the Shi’ite side in those wars.
- Duncan Disorderly
- Henry the Horse
June 18, 2014 at 7:59 am -
The passports suggestion is something of a red herring on several levels (apart from the tiny problem of also being completely against both national and international law). I don’t think taking the passports of the IRA would have been a solution to the norther Ireland troubles. But in any case I think the idea that people who have fought in Syria for one side or another would necessarily be a problem when thet return to the UK. Plenty of British people fought on both sides in Spain in the 30s but none tried to start a violent Communist or Fascist revolution when they got back home. I think this is another one of those cases where ‘intelligence experts’ are trying to create businss for themselves by blowing up a threat that really isnt there.
- Pericles
June 19, 2014 at 7:18 pm -
There is, I believe, an important distinction to be drawn between those that fought in the Spanish civil war and these fanatics that have been going to Syria to fight on the side of any of the jihaadist groups. The former took the part of one side in the Spanish conflict and had no particular animosity toward Britain; once the conflict there was over (or their part in it) they could return to normal life.
The latter believe that a caliphate ought to be established in the Levant; they hold a hatred — irrational as it might be — toward not only some of the other groups fighting al-Assad, such as the Free-Syria Army, but also toward the entire ‘West’.
ΠΞ
- Pericles
- nofixedaddress
June 18, 2014 at 8:19 pm -
From http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/zakat/
Zakat is the amount of money that every adult, mentally stable, free, and financially able Muslim, male and female, has to pay to support specific categories [of] people.This category of people is defined in surah at-Taubah (9) verse 60: “The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarers; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is knower, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an 9:60).
Anyone that can determine who collects the Zakāt will determine the structure of the 1400 year islam mob!
- Mark T
June 20, 2014 at 9:51 am -
Surely the ‘returning fighters’ should be notified that they will be treated the same as any other British passport holder accused of murder on foreign soil and deported back to Iraq?
- Pericles
June 20, 2014 at 10:48 am -
Nice idea, if one could do it. Couple of rather large problems:
(1) Would Iraq or Syria (or which ever country) be willing or able to gather enough evidence to support an extradition warrant; or an information laid in a English court for that matter?
(2) Would that country be prepared to take our excreta (bearing in mind that, where ever their hearts, they’re British citizens)?
ΠΞ
- Pericles
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