Lansbury's Children in Tower Scamlets.
Conveniently adjacent to the £1,000 a week furnished floating homes in the new womb of journalism, Canary Wharf, and within touching distance of the engine of our ‘booming economy’, the money men of the priapic Shard, lies an area of London that neither journalism nor money appears willing or able to penetrate. It was originally known colloquially as the ‘Rookery’, both because of the noisy, overcrowded, nesting habit of that bird, and its propensity to steal that which it could not obtain by any other means…
The marshy areas to the East of the walled City of London were the least desirable to live in, and it was this ‘least desirable’ area that displaced agricultural workers built ramshackle homes as they flocked to London looking for work in Tudor times. As they managed to put money in their pockets, they moved on to healthier districts. After the Great Fire of London, dangerous trades such as the manufacture of gunpowder, and the tanning industry were shipped outside of the City Walls – to the East End. A new wave of immigrants gratefully took up the jobs on offer. When the Huguenot weavers arrived, they brought with them the habit of reading books, and an early ‘moral panic’ ensued.
The ‘halfpenny press’, the forerunners of modern journalism were quick to condemn these incomers as a threat to ‘decent society’.
[The] invention about 1880 of the term ‘East End’ was rapidly taken up by the new halfpenny press, and in the pulpit and the music hall … A shabby man from Paddington, St Marylebone or Battersea might pass muster as one of the respectable poor. But the same man coming from Bethnal Green, Shadwell or Wapping was an ‘East Ender’, the box of Keating’s bug powder must be reached for, and the spoons locked up. In the long run this cruel stigma came to do good. It was a final incentive to the poorest to get out of the ‘East End’ at all costs, and it became a concentrated reminder to the public conscience that nothing to be found in the ‘East End’ should be tolerated in a Christian country.
This Christian fear of the unhealthy, heathen, undisciplined inhabitants of the East End led ultimately to the creation of Barnardos, the Salvation Army, and Toynbee Hall – the progenitor of the socialist and trade union movements. Fear that those who clung to a precarious existence in the East End would somehow ‘infect’ the good citizens of Britain has been a constant refrain in the British press. ‘They’, whether unwashed agricultural workers, Jewish, Huguenot, or Bangladeshi, must be tamed, domesticated, before ‘everyone’ started behaving like ‘that’. The East End has been seen as a constantly evolving pot of potentially infectious evil that attracted the attentions of religious doctors, then medical doctors, then social doctors, and inevitably ‘political’ doctors.
The 19th century journalist Henry Mayhew was one of the few who penetrated the East End and actually did more than lament; in 1851 he wrote:
Roads were unmade, often mere alleys, houses small and without foundations, subdivided and often around unpaved courts. An almost total lack of drainage and sewerage was made worse by the ponds formed by the excavation of brick earth. Pigs and cows in back yards, noxious trades like boiling tripe, melting tallow, or preparing cat’s meat, and slaughter houses, dustheaps, and ‘lakes of putrefying night soil’ added to the filth…
A series of articles that led to the Artisan and Labourers Dwellings Improvement Act 1875 which cleared the slums that Mayhew referred to and built the slums which today’s collection of displaced ‘potentially infectious evil ones’ live in – the Bangladeshi’s.
The ‘Bollinger Bolsheviks’ have always seen the East End as a happy hunting ground. From George Lansbury, ‘heroically’ jailed in 1921 for refusing to hand over that part of the locally collected council tax which belonged to ‘higher’ authorities – like the education budget or provision for the fire service – on the grounds that the poor and unemployed of the area had more need of the money for food, an act which resulted in 30 members of the council being jailed, and council meetings actually taking place in Brixton Prison since that was where the quorum was…to the city analyst John Biggs whose claim to fame was building the Olympic Park for the 2012 ‘legacy games’ extravaganza for visiting potentates in an area where housing stock is still described as ‘slum’.
It seems the city money men can see opportunities for development, and the journalists can look across the road and see opportunities for headlines – ‘Mayor’s office searched amid fraud inquiry’ – ‘Scotland Yard has drawn up a “robust” policing plan for Tower Hamlets, which has a history of allegations of election crime’. Nothing much changes in Tower Hamlets.
Just the ethnicity of the inhabitants, and the nature of the ‘moral panic’ they create.
When the Bangladeshi’s move on, as they will, as did the Jews and the Hugenots, and the weavers and agricultural workers, by their own efforts, without the aid of the money in the city or the excitable wails of the journalists, I wonder who will settle next in the area and what will be our fear of their behaviour?
- Ed P
May 28, 2014 at 9:17 am -
Henry Mayhew either lived a very long time or it was 1851 when he wrote his lament.
Fascinating stuff as always!
- Clarissa
May 28, 2014 at 9:23 am -
Ed has beaten me to the sub-editors hat with that one so I see his hand and raise you “dangerous trades such as the manufacture of gunpowder, and the tanning industry was shipped outside of the City Walls”. Were, surely?
- Clarissa
- Clarissa
May 28, 2014 at 9:31 am -
Sub-editing pedantry aside, there were certainly tales of what could euphemistically be described as high-pressure sales tactics being employed outside of the polling stations by supporters of Lufter Rahman. I’m also not aware of any other district in the country stationing police officers at every polling station – nor of one that took quite so longer to count the votes (and there are further tales of dubious behaviour at the count).
- Don Cox
May 28, 2014 at 9:50 am -
For some more background on Tower Hamlet’s see the entry in Diamond Geezer’s blog for Monay 26th.
http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/
- Andrew Rosthorn
May 28, 2014 at 10:11 am -
Henry Mayhew, surely 1851 not 1951, made that neat remark that suits to your own remarkable work on Duncroft: ‘We may either proceed from principles to facts, or recede from facts to principles.’
- Margaret Jervis
May 28, 2014 at 10:36 am -
It’s interesting to see what is happening in comparable areas in Birmingham where the ‘Trojan horse’ schools inquisition is underway. Schools in these impoverished districts – once the homes of Irish migrants and distinguished from the white underclass now elsewhere by being owner-occupied – have been almost completely muslim for decades. They also used to be chronically poor performing sink schools. The current wave of anxiety highlighting by claims of ‘segregation’ (do single sex schools not exist?) religious education almost exclusively islamic( as opposed to the pick and mix -who- cares curriculum of others) and various anecdotes about un-PC attitudes is clearly countermanded by the fact that parents – asians who have grown up in this country and went to the same schools themselves when nobody gave a damn – love them. They have long waiting lists. Apparently the current scare has only strengthened their opinion of a) the quality of the education and the beneficent affect on their children and b) the anti-islamic prejudice they see in in the ‘host’ culture that sanctions a double-speak ‘children’s rights’ agenda that they and and indeed a significant proportion of the ‘host’ culture distrust and dislike. I’m sure it is good for children to be told about other religions to engender tolerance and respect. It’s not clear to me that the children and families in these schools are any more lacking in this than in other schools – do children taught in Castle Bromwich in a white underclass schools have an understanding of islam, hinduism, judaism etc outside a few notions about partying on Diwali and the Holocaust? Should the 100 per cent muslim schools be forced to put on nativity plays to demonstrate their ‘diversity’ when these same plays and largely meaningless in religious terms to their ‘Christian’ peers? Is that a reason for so doing – it doesn’t really mean anything? I can tell you that even in the 80s in a mixed primary school in Moseley there were never any nativity plays for my children to partake in – it just wasn’t done. And I don’t think when they graduated to primary schools in Brent there was much talk about religion either. When I tried to enter them into a Catholic primary on the grounds of my mother-religion I was politely refused – because they weren’t baptized. I didn’t go so far as to ask whether they had to be baptized as catholics. But I’m sure you know even now of parents who grudgingly attend their local CoE church in order to get them into the top-notch academic feeder to a grammar school. My daughter considered this option but has opted for the third way – the private school. No segregation there!
- Robert the Biker
May 28, 2014 at 11:48 am -
It’s not a question of staging a Nativity play, that would be ‘haram’ in any case, but of preparing children to at least some extent for entry into our modern society.
You do not do that by dressing girls in bin bags, making them sit somewhere else from the boys, teaching that only what was acceptable to a seventh century caravan raider, murderous rapist and general swivel-eyed loon thought was proper. One would have thought that was what their families had left whatever third world shithole to avoid, but apparently not!
If they don’t like the host culture, why are they here? After all, the planes go back as well.
Don’t even get me going on FGM as practised by these so called societies, nor the idea of marrying your twelve year old daughter to some filthy fifty year old goat herder who is her cousin, nor indeed murdering her if she has the temerity to say ‘no’.- Mr Wray
May 28, 2014 at 12:25 pm -
I can’t say I wasn’t pleased when I found out my kids school would not be hosting a Nativity play. All the trauma of not been chosen as Mary or Joseph and having to suffer the humiliation of being a tree, yet again despite having a better voice than Cindy, who’s just plain fat anyway … yada, yada, yada. No I was quite happy. Stupidly though because that didn’t mean the teachers didn’t want the kids to perform something. And that something! One year they did Macbeth. Macbeth! Can you imagine 7 & 8 year olds looking for damn spots. Give me dropping Jesus down the back of the stage any day.
Either way how girls dress does not excite me, provided they are decent and having Muslim women wandering around in the full kit does not disturb me. They have a choice of how to dress and they choose to conform. It may be alien to most in the UK but at least there aren’t acres of puckered fat on display. No, that doesn’t bother me one bit.
Neither does single sex education. In fact I think all schools could do with separating boys from girls it might focus the boys a bit better. Mind you we’d also have to ditch the female-centric education methodologies as well. So again no problem.
FGM? Yuck and illegal here. So why isn’t anyone taking action? Why indeed.
No the thing that bothers me about current immigration is not the religions or the cultures or the dress sense, nor the colour of their skin. It’s the numbers. IIRC I read somewhere that before 1939 fewer than 300,000 people had migrated to this country since the Norman Conquest. These days that number arrives yearly, if you believe the unofficial figures and the official ones are close to 300k anyway. No country nor culture can survive such an influx without determined integration and that is not happening and it is even actively discouraged. It just can’t work and sooner or later blood will be spilt. I just hope I’m dead by then …
- Margaret Jervis
May 28, 2014 at 12:54 pm -
Think these are different things. Many of the current migrants are Europeans where ‘integration’ is not a problem in the cultural and religious sense . But yes dtermined integration was what made the US so successful – yes you could keep your religion and cultural identity but you had to speak English , pledge allegiance to to the constitution etc. ‘Multi-culturalism’ in the Uk failed because it did not impose any of this basic demands – parents never learnt or spoke English and existed in a twilight world where their children never quite belonged to the ‘host’ culture either. But the parents at these schools are by and large British and have grown up here – they are not ‘ignorant’ of modern society – indeed they have aspirations for their children to succeed academically and socially but feel that a ‘strong brand’ of identity in education is the best way to achieve this – as do people who send there children to faith schools and private schools or Rudolf Steiner schools r even strong brand secularist. As for Robert the Biker -think your sweeping prejudices speak for themselves – but FGM is not a muslim practice but a cultural one mostly confined to Somalis in the UK – the numbers at risk have been exaggerated and the vast majority of muslims would also be appalled by ‘honour killings’ etc – our modern society of course burnt a man alive – an Iranian, because the local moderns thought he was a paedo and who among us here encourages this paedo-paranoia? The moderns who are in charge.
- Robert the Biker
May 28, 2014 at 1:11 pm -
Glad my ‘prejudices’ speak for themselves, saves going on about things I know nothing about like some….
Try again! FGM is as much muslim as any other, the Somalis you speak of are muslim after all, and the practice is common in Pakistan and Bangladesh, both muslim at last count. I wonder why the numbers are now ‘exaggerated’, someone complain that they were made to look bad?
As for honour killings, you picked a bad day for that one, headlines in the news tell of the young pregnant girl in Pakistan murdered by her parents and others for marrying the ‘wrong’ man. Don’t come the ‘vast majority of muslims’ either, they say nothing, do nothing, and are only heard of when it becomes a scandal.
As for the supposed ‘British’ parents, so modern etc. so were the bombers on 7/7 ‘British’ and modern, still murderous islamic shit though.
The first two thirds of the comment I agree with though, well done.- Robert the Biker
May 28, 2014 at 1:12 pm -
Sorry Anna, pet hobby horse and painful subject.
- Robert the Biker
- expoƒunction
May 28, 2014 at 2:15 pm -
[As an aside.] @ Margaret Jervis. I’m inclined to agree with your assessment that FGM case numbers are likely hyped up, but it’s a very serious & deplorable practice none the less. What astonishes me however is the double standard applied to the issue; in that there are unquestionably many more infant boys routinely – and medially unnecessarily – circumcised each year in the UK (and many more in the US where medically unnecessary circumcision of infants is more routinely practiced). That too is genital mutilation, is it not?
Genital mutilation is genital mutilation, irrespective of the child’s gender.
Can anyone recall their own reaction on first hearing – presumably as a child – about the practice of ‘routinely’ circumcising infant boys? Weren’t we perplexed if not horrified then too?
“Bystanders, like perpetrators, are gradually drawn into accepting as normal, actions which are initially repugnant.” – Stanley Cohen (author of “Folk Devils and Moral Panics”), States of Denial (2001).
- Margaret Jervis
May 28, 2014 at 2:35 pm -
How did we get from Lansbury in the East End to circumcision? Well I guess that’s the serendipity of the blog.
But – no- I’m -not -going -there! I once had a twitter spat about this where I compared it was a Greek orthodox christening – of course this was also seen to ‘abusive’ . I bowed out of this dispute too. But no I was never horrified at the idea of male circumcision but came from a less sensitive age and don’t regard it as ‘genital mutilation’.What do you think about abortion?
- Robert the Biker
May 28, 2014 at 2:45 pm -
I suppose part of this is that it is considered a less invasive practice, done at a very early age and GENERALLY with few consequences, unlike FGM. Who does it? Jews, muslims and curiously quite a few ‘regular’ Americans I guess, nominally for religious reasons tied to hygiene. I don’t know if is regularly practised in Europe.
I thought it an odd idea when I first heard of it, but since no one was planning to do it to me, I thought little more of it.
I think that this, like FGM, would tend to die out if left till adulthood (you want to cut the end off my what?)
I note the quote is from a Cohen, I presume he’s a roundhead rather than a cavalier : )
- Margaret Jervis
- Robert the Biker
- Andrew Rosthorn
May 28, 2014 at 2:59 pm -
Shurely shomething wrong with that figure of only 300,000 migrants in ‘this country’ between the Norman Conquest and 1939. Just think of the 50,000 Huguenots invited by Charles II, the 40,000 Indian seamen, diplomats, scholars, soldiers, officials, tourists, businessmen and students in Great Britain by 1855, the 15,000 Africans by 1750, brought to Britain as the captain’s share of the cargo of transatlantic slave ships, 28,644 German immigrants in Britain by 1861, rising to 53,324 in 1914, the 120,000 Russian Jews who settled in Britain out of the 2,000,000 who passed through the country on their way to the USA.
I guess your correspondents phrase “this country” covers the usual English uncertainty about what country we actually inhabit, so Irish and Scottish migrants can perhaps be excluded from the argument.
I make that 278,324 without going any further back than Charles II. The trouble with the English is that they’ve been turning up on everybody’s beaches without permission for the last five hundred years yet now moan about folk turning up in Dover looking for work. Is there a word for this mentality?- Margaret Jervis
May 28, 2014 at 3:18 pm -
The Empire Strikes Back?
- JimS
May 28, 2014 at 3:35 pm -
Using present day numbers, all of the ‘English’ turning up on everybody’s beaches and representing 0.7% of the world’s population would hardly be noticed.
If 0.7% of the population of India emigrated it would hardly be noticed too. If they turned up on English beaches it would need a new London to house them. - Daedalus X.Parrot
May 29, 2014 at 6:34 am -
To Andrew Rosthorn, regarding your comment: The trouble with the English is that they’ve been turning up on everybody’s beaches without permission for the last five hundred years yet now moan about folk turning up in Dover
As an Englishman (who, to my knowledge, has not turned up on some beach without permission) I am completely justified in objecting very strongly to the inundation of unvoted-for, mass immigration into our country in recent years.
This entitlement is even more justified when you consider the fact that our country is one of the most densely populated in the world, that is not a city state. And it could even be THE most densely populated if you rule out uninhabitable and unfarmable regions.
To invite 100,000s every year into this already crowded country is madness. Will one of you apologists for mass immigration please prove to me that it has NOT caused high house prices, two week or longer waits for GP appointments, increased numbers of non-English speaking children in schools causing education resources to be stretched, higher benefits bills driving government borrowing and taxation, please?
It is intellectually dishonest to try to conflate objection to mass immigration with xenophobia, or in Margaret Jervis’s case, make the snide “Empire strikes back” comment that possibly implies an anti-British, sadistic enjoyment of innocent 21st century Britons being punished because their great grandfathers created the British Empire.
- Andrew Rosthorn
May 29, 2014 at 8:41 am -
Just a few points. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland [‘our country’, according to Daedalus X. Parrott] is not one of the most densely populated countries. We are 51 in the list of 244. Greenland is 244. ‘Our country’ has 262 people per square kilometre, just a little denser than Pakistan with 232.08 at position 56 and Germany with 226 at position 58 in the table.
I live in North East Lancashire, where the population has been falling since 1915, even with that immigration from Mirpur and Guj after 1950. So I guess that Daedalus X. Parrott might possibly be living in the South.
I suggest that the population pressure felt in the South East has been more caused by Tory and Labour governments who sold council houses and flats in London to win elections, connived at de-industralisation in the Midlands and the North, failed to electrify main railway lines and above all gambled on turning London into the banking centre of Europe, or as Nick Shaxon has demonstrated in ‘Treasure Islands’, the biggest offshore tax haven in the world. Having created a vast city state but sold off their municipal housing to win elections, they had to rely on thousands of young migrant workers to make the city state work, since it has become harder and harder to raise a family and live in London on a semi-skilled or public service salary. As for the complaint about high house prices, it should be kept in mind that when they fell in the recent slump, the present coalition government used government borrowings to get them going up again.- Stewart Cowan
May 30, 2014 at 8:30 am -
And less than 2% of the UK is built on, including roads. But as I’ve already said, Blair’s instructions were for mass immigration to drastically change society to weaken our culture and resolve in order for us to be more smoothly governed from Brussels and Geneva.
House prices are kept deliberately extortionate due to post-WWII draconian planning regulations.
Most doctors seem to be Asian, so not sure why we have to wait so long for a doctor. I know the NHS needs closing down for being a failure.
Our governments are so spendthrift to deliberately bankrupt us to be ‘saved’ by the globalists and therefore owned by them.
- Mr Wray
May 30, 2014 at 9:57 am -
The government’s own figures state that 7% of the UK is ‘unused’ land. There is no indication if this land is actually usable (i.e. cliff tops, mountain sides, marshes etc). The other 90% is used (+3% built), mostly for agriculture and forestry.
As ever with statistics there is more than one way of looking at them.
- Mr Wray
- Stewart Cowan
- Andrew Rosthorn
- Mr Wray
May 29, 2014 at 11:02 am -
I see someone has been to Wikipedia and yet you still can’t top 300k back to Charles II (died 1685). So let’s just accept that you are right and I am wrong on the dates eh? So does similar numbers arriving each year than arrived between 1685 and 1939 not sound somewhat disparate?
Often the idea that England (alone) is a nation of foreigners is bandied about and the waves of immigration you note are given as evidence. But that’s just under 300k in 254 years not 2.54 years. It’s not sustainable..
- Andrew Rosthorn
May 29, 2014 at 12:34 pm -
I just gave up counting when I got near to 300,000. I didn’t count the 20,000 recent Italian immigrants who checked in when conscription started in Britain 1915, or the 20,000 ‘poor Palatines from the Rhineland invited in by Queen Anne, the 225,000 [low estimate] of Belgians who arrived during the First World War, of which many stayed, or the Chinese and the Somali stewards and firemen who manned our ships and came to live here. By the way, the Chinese are now the largest single nationality of British immigrants, followed by India, Poland, the US and Australia.
Immigration to the UK actually fell in the year to June 2013. What happened was that fewer people chose leave and go somewhere else. After falling for two years, net migration rose in that year to 182,000 in the year to June, up from 167,000.
We’re talking about people here. Human rights. Chinese and Indian students, American bankers, Polish plumbers and of course, people like Anna Raccoon, who decided she wanted to leave England and go and live in France.
It’s the job of politicians to fix the problems without interfering with the human right and the occasional human need to migrate, which is nearly as old as the hills.
There’s plenty of room in Britain. It’s just mismanagement of housing in the proto-city banking state of London that’s the problem. Was it not the mismanagement of the Russian Empire in 1890 that sent 2 million Jews westwards? Their children now own Manchester United but their grandparents were perceived by fools as a menace when they arrived in East London, Manchester and New York
The population of Liverpool fell in every year between 1931 and 2011. It’s a great city to live in, but one hundred thousand people left Liverpool every year between 1971 and 1981. Who was to blame? Was it their fault? Should they have been restrained?- Mr Wray
May 30, 2014 at 10:12 am -
Yes, we are talking about people here and not just those already here. That’s the issue, the only issue. The effect that large migrations have on populations. The UK is not under populated, despite the propaganda, and we have been unable to feed the population since the 1930’s. Food imports are immense. We have water shortages after wet winters because we can’t store enough water for all the peoples needs. Electricity consumption is rapidly rising but we don’t have the fuel or enough wind to keep it going for long. We need infrastructure (schools, hospitals etc) as every year a small town load of people arrive. They are not being built. We are also very short of cash, despite being a ‘rich’ Nation.
We can afford and even a have a duty to accept smaller numbers but the current rate is unsustainable and will lead to severe problems for EVERYONE here now and in the future.
- Mr Wray
- Andrew Rosthorn
- Margaret Jervis
- Margaret Jervis
- Mr Wray
- Robert the Biker
- Mudplugger
May 28, 2014 at 2:44 pm -
Whether the East End Bangladeshis will actually move on remains to be seen.
My own city of origin saw substantial immigration from Eastern Europe after Word War 2, all congregated in the cheaper parts of town, creating ghettos of Hungarians, Ukrainians etc. Within a generation these ghettos had evaporated, as the refugee families became established, got jobs, earned money and progressively integrated into the host society, both geographically and maritally.
The later influxes of Asian immigrants have managed those first few steps but still resist the final diaspora – they remain congregated in the same areas, simply enlarging their houses to excessive levels (aided by an over-sympathetic, look-the-other-way, council planning unit) and deliberately perpetuate the ghetto mentality, failing to integrate with the indigenous hosts, yet invariably blaming the hosts for that failure.
Family culture is probably behind it, mostly the wish to ensure that their women will not be exposed to the freedoms of the wider British society and thus be encouraged to think outside their habitual box, even many of those who have had the benefit of a UK education. Optimists believe a couple more generations will address this issue and integration will ultimately occur – others think that non-alcoholic glass is half empty.
Whether those dusky Eastenders ever move on may eventually resolve that outstanding question.- JimS
May 28, 2014 at 3:59 pm -
I’m inclined to agree.
In my primary school years I once saw a man of colour as we took the bus from the city centre to the outer suburb where we lived. He was notable because of the novelty.
Five years later that inner suburb appeared to be exclusively Afro-Caribbean. Now it is Asian and Islamic with shops openly declaring that, in so much as English is actually displayed. There has been no sign of any change in the last forty years.
What has changed is the composition of the inhabitants of the adjacent, (better?), outer suburbs. My parents house, once surrounded by others owned by ‘white’ shopkeepers, teachers, middle-managers etc. is virtually marooned by Asian businessmen, as declared by their VW vans parked on their driveways. Without exception each newcomer has had their new home extended before they move in, sometimes taking a year or more to do so. In a couple of cases detached houses have been joined to each other. Front and rear gardens have been stripped to replicate Asian courtyards or parking spaces for the four or more Mercedes-Benz or Audi cars. The even have ‘grannies’ that pop out from time to time, bent over double, to brush the front yard with their bunches of twigs.
These don’t look like a people that have any intention of ‘moving on’ or dispersing into the wider community any time soon. Maybe if they become richer they will move to the Bahamas? Even if that happens I suspect the house will be passed on to children or cousins.- Margaret Jervis
May 28, 2014 at 5:38 pm -
I don’t think the Tower Hamlets Bangladeshis are similar to the conservative Mirpuris from Azad Kashmir – this is the largest community of Pakistanis the UK predominantly in the midlands and the north – which is why their isolation was ignored by by metropolis until 9/11-7/7 though you could see the signs back in the 80s with the Satanic Verses fiasco. Liberals then tended to react with outrage while making no effort to understand the people at all and how they got this way.. Indeed these were the ‘multi-culturalists’. Now of course such enclaves are viewed with suspicion – the boys street groomers and traffickers, the girls in purdah and the whole community a breeding ground for jihadists. Will they ‘move on’? Perhaps not. They are similar in many ways to the separatist Hassidic commmity in Stamford Hill. But the communal family houses do provide community and whereas many Pakistani women were in ‘purdah’ in a two up two down terraced house with only a possibly antagonistic mother in law for company, they can attain more freedom within the extended family and may indeed choose to live this way rather than being formally in purdah. And whereas the earlier generations did not speak English the younger ones have grown up in Britain and are more likely to branch out and be more, if not quite ‘like us’.
Unlike the goahead Hindu Gujeratis, the Punajabi Sikhs and Pakhistanis from metroplitan districts. this displaced migrant community (they had no prior history of migration but came over here when a dam was built and the mills still needed cheap labour) had no immediate adaptive skills to foreign cultures (they were not traders) but merely reproduced what they left – and because they used to have arranged marriages with relatives from Mirpur the communities remained in stasis.
One of the real problems this community suffered for many years without any real attempt to being addressed was consanguinity resulting in a disproportionate number of severely disabled children and infant mortality. I looked into this journalistically in the 80s in Birmingham – some British community workers told me flatly I was being racist. But in fact there was real suffering and not suffered gladly – there was one group of asian women with disabled children who met in group who spoke frankly about their ignorance of the risks and wanted to do something about it. There was also an asian woman doctor who counselled in the Mosque – citing the Koran – she said that because it said you could not marry an immediate relative it was mistaken to mean you had to marry a cousin. She disabused them of this and made them aware of the risks of which they already had ample experience. This was a little ‘soce voce’ so as not ruffle the feathers of the diehards. It was a start.How much has changed in the intervening years? I don’t know. I do know at the time when I put the suggestion of genetic education in schools to a local Asian ‘community leader’ he hit the roof.
But I would suggest that
the figures relating to congenital handicap in these communities would be a ballpark marker of progressive change across the board over the years.- Mudplugger
May 28, 2014 at 7:36 pm -
In one large, darkened, northern city, a not-too-subtle local analysis goes under the positive-spun heading ‘Born In Bradford’, allegedly following the health outcomes of a whole cohort of that city’s births.
Although city-wide, in fact this is an covert attempt to establish a data-set focus on some of the unspoken issues of its mostly Mirpuri population, such as genetic disability through close in-breeding (visibly high amongst the target group), female infanticide / gender-selective abortion (a significant gender imbalance in evident), FGM, school-absences for ‘family-encouraged’ marriage etc., all of which are common in the city but not publicly acknowledged.
It may take a generation to accumulate adequate data and it will probably never be fully published for obvious reasons, but at least someone, in some quiet recess of authority, will then finally have some indisputable facts, although what they will ever able to do with those facts in terms of culture change or positive implementation of UK laws must be questionable.
- Mudplugger
- Margaret Jervis
- JimS
- Ian R Thorpe
May 28, 2014 at 8:01 pm -
There are rather a lot of Lansbury kin in the upper reaches of the Labour hierarchy aren’t there? Incestuous lot, worse than the Windsors.
I think you are right, the Bangladeshis will move on, probably sooner rather that later. If any of us are still around it will be amusing to see if this prompts another racist outburst from Ken Livingstone about minorities whose votes rightfully belong to Labour “voting with their wallets.”
Henry Mayhew BTW features in Terry Pratchett’s novel Dodger, just thought I’d mention that.
- rabbitaway
May 28, 2014 at 8:22 pm -
Whilst we’re on the subject of Tower Ham’s – how’s about a trip back 2 the 60’s – great clip from ‘A portrait of Queenie’ – her pub on the East India Dock Road was demolished just a few years ago – great singer !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qqe4NTNSaQ&list=PLMTHuxvj3qS4L_PJJzNmAjTcCKq56vSx9 - Margaret Jervis
May 28, 2014 at 10:07 pm -
@Mudplugger I think ‘gender selective abortion’ or even abortion would not be a Mirpuri feature. ‘Gender selective abortion’ is more an middle class Indian Hindu issue. But then abortion is a general choice by the indigenous population often for reasons other than ‘medical’ however widely determined. And how many of the Mirpuris have an abortion in the pre-birth knowledge of severe handicap? The genetic education objected to by the Asian ‘community leader’ would have included this precept. And if you want to have an abortion because it interferes with your lifestyle why not have an abortion because you want one particular sex rather than another? The former are only, after all, waiting for the ‘ right moment’ the latter want the’right child’ at this moment, probably because they’ve not scored with the desired sex – male – on numerous occasions before and of course there are financial consequences even in the most enlightened families even now. (BTW my friend’s son married a Mongolian girl – she had the full trad-plus LA glitz wedding in Ulan Batar – but the tradition was that the groom’s family paid. So they did plus expenses getting there. Then their daughter married an American in Hawaii in a beach wedding – guess this was much less costly – but who paid?) But back to the subject – why this stuff about FGM? – not prevalent. And why call in ‘in-breeding’ . Have you ever met any of ‘these people’ – you seem to have some sort of (?in-bred) disdain. I would revert to @Andrewrosthern’s post on ‘Anglo-Saxon attitudes’
- Mudplugger
May 29, 2014 at 7:39 am -
I have some very close friends from the Mirpuri community, so close that they refer to me as ‘cousin’, ‘uncle’ etc, and with whom I have many open debates and discussions about the cultural transplant issues. They acknowledge that, even after 40+ years here, their original culture is struggling to find a level of integration, with even the younger ones finding it difficult to accommodate the conflicting mores.
This family has followed the close-breeding pattern and has some of the consequences of minor disability evident in their offspring – whilst starting to acknowledge the issue, they are still very reluctant to divert from the pattern of close-marriage, so the problem will persist.
Sex-selection abortion is a real issue, such that local NHS units have declined to indicate foetal gender for many years – as the culture starts to accept smaller families, it places even greater importance on achieving at least one successful male birth, hence this issue achieves even more focus.
But on issues like FGM, my own Mirpuri friends coincide with our natural horror – that abomination is more restricted to other sects and origins, but not unknown in their own background.
I have learnt much from these particular friends, as I hope they have from me, but it remains significant that, despite their commercial success, they still inhabit the ghetto, albeit in very comfortable surroundings, whereas previous waves of immigrants would by now have moved out to the leafier suburbs, communing with other successful folk from many different origins. - JimS
May 29, 2014 at 7:46 am -
O h dear.
Your logic derived from Andrewrosthern seems to be:-1. My grandfather broke into your grandfather’s house.
2. Your grandfather didn’t like it.
3. I know and you know that your grandfather didn’t like it.
4. You should break into my house and I will like it.That is the ‘fairness’ of the playground and similar to “We have nuclear weapons; Iran should have them too!”
It is also an argument that takes no account of relative numbers or reality. A friend told me that he had recently seen a TV programme in which the (wicked) British had sent four gun boats to put down the Chinese. So four gun boats might perhaps ‘hold down’ 56 miles of coast and extend their influence perhaps a couple of miles inland. That is about 0.6% of the coastline and about 0.002% of the area. For a small country off the coast of northern Europe with no ‘instant’ communications and logistically supply lines of thousands of miles relying on sailing ships we did far better than the mighty USA can do now. Perhaps, just maybe, we had local help? Perhaps maybe it is all just a convenient colonial lie to suit modern corrupt politicians?
- Margaret Jervis
May 29, 2014 at 3:22 pm -
I think this is overstating JimS. Economic migration is an ex-colonial legacy and was encouraged postwar when we needed the labour. It had unintended consequences but don’t blame the migrants who acted lawfully in their and our interests. The free movement of labour was also an economic policy which we endorsed in the EU which held the promise of cheap labour from poorer states in addition to us having free work passes and other benefits in European states including the sunny ones where so many people wish to retire. That has also had unintended consequences. These unintended consequences may be seen as being detrimental to our social and economic interests, but its not the migrants’ fault. While drawbridges may be pulled up they will not be absolute for all sorts of reasons – economic or political migration is a fact of modern life. And those people who have come here legally ought not to be blamed or sent away -because they are part of ‘us’ .
As mentioned, there huge mistakes made in the laissez faire years of multi-culturalism. These should abate with time and a policies that encourage rather than discourage language learning etc and mutual respect within the same nation. I don’t think there should be undue apologia for the sins of the past real or imagined, but neither can we turn the clock back and shoo out the bits of the populace some of us would rather not have had here in the first place. We have to find solutions to the state we are in to benefit us all – and that includes minorities making their own efforts to break down barriers.- Moor Larkin
May 30, 2014 at 11:06 am -
There’s a superb 1955 piece from Orson Welles on the BBC, doing a series of illustrated monologues, where in one, he discusses the rise of the “passport” and how his father viewed it with anathema, and he doesn’t really like the fact he has to be numbered when all he wants to do is travel. In an interview with one of Welles’ contemporaries, Patrick McGoohan, McGoohan describes how his grandfather would leave Ireland for three or four months a year and travel by ship to the US, work and come back with pockets stuffed with dollars – the exchange of which would provide the living for the family for the rest of the year. Quite how fellows like this got round Ellis island and immigration controls remained unexplained, but he was said to never pay for passage on the ships either – but would work his passage instead, so I guess it was all black market stuff. One of McGoohan’s quotes referred to Ireland at the time only having one export – and that was people. He himself was born in New York but his parents returned to Ireland when he was tiny and then moved to Sheffield as the Great Depression hit Europe. The Catholic Church enabled much of the Irish diaspora I think.
- Moor Larkin
- Margaret Jervis
- Mudplugger
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