“As good be hang’d for an old sheep as a young lamb”?
The new breed of righteous ‘paedophile hunters’ are not a tribe exclusive to the UK. I suspect they were introduced to the native population like grey squirrels – possibly from Australia, where they are even more prolific than in the US if that is possible.
Yesterday, one of the better known, Derryn Hinch, was released from prison in Melbourne, loudly complaining of the unpleasant nature of some of the individuals he had been forced to share his temporary home with. Not that he had done a lot of ‘sharing’, he had requested solitary confinement ‘in accordance with his wishes after he said he was worried for his safety and health‘.
Why would somebody ostensibly ‘on the side of the angels’, an outspoken ‘moral crusader’, have found himself in prison? Because, as is the case with so many of these ‘moral guardians’, he thought he was above the law, better than the law, that the law was merely there to punish the people HE pointed a finger at. Derryn was jailed for his sixth offence of ‘contempt of court’.
Derryn is a ‘shock jock’, a ‘C’ list radio celebrity, whose career is dependant upon remaining in the news. What better way, in today’s climate, than to point the finger at well known people and say ‘he’s a paedophile’. It is a fashion that we have taken to in the UK, as non entities who might have spent their life unknown, become household names with an army of followers, by publicly labelling any celebrity who has had the misfortune to be accused of past indiscretions with a nubile fifteen-going-on-sixteen year old as a paedophile.
I had thought that this was merely a cynical move to build a career in journalism, but the uncomfortable thought has crossed my mind from time to time, that possibly worrisome thoughts had entered their minds – and what better way to hide in plain sight than at the end of the pointing arm? That uncomfortable thought resurfaced when I found this old blog post from Derryn on the ‘way-back’ machine – oh dear; bedding a fifteen year old Derryn? So you too are attracted to the young and nubile and get caught out by a mountain of make-up and a determined teen-ager?
That deleted blog post and the subsequent denouncement of Derryn as a hypocrite who should be charged and convicted was back in 2005; since then, the young woman has been persuaded, we know not how or why, to come forward and say that Derryn was mistaken, she was 17. Perhaps she was. When she met Derryn she said she was 25, so she obviously lied on at least one of these occasions, it is a matter of opinion as to which one.
My point being, not to rake over old Derryn coals, but that when you take a lingerie and swimwear model, dressed up to the nines, out to dinner and subsequently to bed – and she turns out to be 15 after closer interrogation, you are behaving as you are genetically programmed to. To subsequently find yourself in court when she has remembered that er, actually, she was 15 and you are now a wealthy celebrity, doesn’t turn you into a ‘paedophile’ who was ‘grooming’ a child, and should compensate that child.
Or, at least, it does in the eyes of the law, but the publicity which the paedo-hunters direct to these cases is to trivialise and turn attention away from a very real problem.
Down in the shires of Gloucestershire, far from the prying eyes of the TV cameras and the salacious detail gatherers, a young girl was painfully recounting the details of an all too familiar situation. She was born at a time when it was every woman’s right to demand a divorce from a man who now bored her; at a time when genetic Fathers were an optional extra to be seen on birthdays and Christmas, if she was lucky; when having to tell your teacher that your surname had changed, yet again, was a familiar ritual at the beginning of term; when teen-agers were all powerful in a household, able to dress as they pleased and go where they pleased, financed by whatever they demanded; where boyfriends were allowed to stay overnight.
She saw nothing wrong in displaying her pubescent body around the house in front of a succession of young men who had no genetic bond with her; inevitably one was attracted to her. He sexually abused her – for many years. He has now gone to prison. As he should. That is Paedophilia, and rightly condemned and punished – by our judicial system.
Where I part company with the celebrity paedo-hunters, and find myself wrongly accused of being a ‘supporter of child abuse’, is their belief that building a broadcasting career on the back of naming elderly celebrities as Paedophiles, and demanding that they be named and shamed for long-ago dalliances with young groupies is actually doing anything at all for the protection of children. It isn’t. I believe it will positively harm them.
They are diverting time and resources from the wholly inadequate system we already have to protect young people. If you want to campaign for ‘child protection’ then look towards protecting children before they are abused. Not tweeting the details afterwards. And for God’s sake stop using the issue as a way to enhance political divisions.
No matter how extreme the law you call for to chemically castrate ‘all Paedophiles’ – a term which now includes even patting a 15 year old on the bottom over her clothing – or whole life tariffs, even the death penalty; no matter what orders you put in place to ensure that those thus labelled are not allowed to ‘live within 50 miles of a school’ or take any gainful employment; you will never, ever, change the basic evolutionary fact that we are all attracted to the youngest, fittest, healthiest example of the human race that we can possibly get into bed with. That applies to men and women.
Animals protect their young cubs – and we used to. Even as young children we were taught how to wriggle in and out of our bathing costumes under a towel on the beach, not taken to a tanning parlour to get an ‘all-over’ in readiness for our trip to Ibiza with our school friends. We were walked home by Fathers, brothers, teachers – and we understood why. Both men and women took protecting their young from danger as their first duty, not last, after their own desires. The majority of men were protective of women and young girls – and we were taught to stay away from situations where we might come across those who were not so well inclined.
Back in the 60s, we hitch-hiked everywhere; if, God forbid, we had found ourselves in the situation with somebody – it invariably involved the phrase ‘are you in favour of all this ‘free-love’ business’ – that we might have got ourselves into a sticky situation, we extracted ourselves as fast as possible, and looked to the next adult, male or female to help us. Our expectation was that most adults would protect us. And they did. Who would now stop their car on a dark rainy night if they saw a young girl in distress running along the road? Particularly a man.
We have engendered an atmosphere where our young females act as temptress, and we demand that any male who is so tempted is ruined for life, more effectively than if he committed a murder.
In fact, why not silence the only witness to your sexual desires? Why take the risk that she may go to court in 30 years time, and you may be ruined for having sex with that lingerie model who said she was 25? Why not wring her neck instead?
Some ‘child protection’ model we are building.
- Johnny Monroe
March 8, 2014 at 11:48 am -
I remember there was a terribly sad story about ten years back where an infant had done what infants often do when an adult’s back is turned – she somehow made her way out of the nursery she was attending and was sighted trotting along the pavement by a lorry driver whose natural instinct was to pull over and go to her assistance; but he hesitated, fearful that his actions would be interpreted as potential abduction and instead drove on. The kid then wandered into the road and was hit by a car, dying on the spot. To me, that was a real state-of-the-nation story, more so than statistics about unemployment or banker’s bonuses. How the hell did we get to the point whereby the protective gene within adult males towards children, the one of which you spoke, could be so twisted out of propotion that they now second-guess how perfectly decent actions could be misinterpreted in the most horrible manner? In this particularly tragic case, fear of the accusatory finger was undoubtedly responsible for a needless death
- expofunction
March 8, 2014 at 12:18 pm -
Many of us had similar thoughts when it was originally announced that this young boy “went missing” in the middle of the night (tragically we now know he was already dead): http://ind.pn/1ggGhkL
That incident too conjured up the bizarre dilemma of what any individual (male) might risk by stopping and helping a child in the wee small hours and whether it might first be necessary to take uncharacteristic self-preservation measures. It’s heartbreaking that – men in particular – may have good reason to think very seriously about their own self-interest rather than act first & compassionately in the interests of a child who may be exposed to danger or risk.
- expofunction
- The Blocked Dwarf
March 8, 2014 at 11:59 am -
“She saw nothing wrong in displaying her *pubescent* body…..That is Paedophilia”
No it’s hebephilia….or Jailbait. I’m surprised at you Anna, have you succumbed to slight dose of Dailymailitus in your sojourn in the Old Wet Country?
- The Blocked Dwarf
March 8, 2014 at 12:02 pm -
or ephebophilia depending on how pubescent .
- Ed P
March 8, 2014 at 12:17 pm -
When I was 16 I was fortunate to meet a lovely girl who said she was 16 too. She was most definitely post-pubescent. Later, too late, she admitted to being “nearly 16”. Oh dear! I was duped (& glad for it), but felt less of a monster when it turned out I was just the latest in a series of conquests she’d made since she was 14.
This modern media-led witchhunt, with its lack of discrimination between pre & post pubescence, is undoubtedly selling lots of papers, but aiming at false targets and with little concern for the real child victims.
Also, there’s a growing sub-culture in the UK whose role-model married a 7 year old. This is leading to a huge increase in true paedo behaviour (which must not be mentioned in case it offends).
- Jonathan Mason
March 8, 2014 at 5:28 pm -
Also, there’s a growing sub-culture in the UK whose role-model married a 7 year old. This is leading to a huge increase in true paedo behaviour (which must not be mentioned in case it offends).
The Virgin Mary was probably under age, but she was a virgin at the time she gave birth, thus getting the benefit of the reasonable doubt. The Bible is not really clear on whether Galilean or Judaean law should have been applied as she claimed she was traveling for purposes of registering in a census of which there is no historical record– a clear early example of medical tourism.
I think one has to accept that ideas of what is the legal age for marriage have changed a bit in the intervening centuries between the age of founding religions and the present time, though of course if you are a lawgiver, then you do have built-in immunity from prosecution under earlier laws.
Obama’s mother may have been pregnant under the legal age of consent in Hawaii, which is a similar case, but it seems unlikely that his parents will be prosecuted posthumously.
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 5:50 pm -
Jonathan Mason,
Re: “Virgin Mary was probably under age”
What was the age of consent 2014 years ago in Jerusalem? lol
It’ll be the area she was impregnated in that counts probably – she must have been at least big enough to carry a baby or god wouldn’t have chosen her I don’t suppose, lol….
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 6:03 pm -
Jonathan Mason,
*I met a guy a few years ago that claimed his mother didn’t know her exact age (I think he was from the Caribbean), this was just a few years ago, but I think back in the 16th century etc it was quite common for some people not to know their exact date of birth, they might have had a rough idea, but if they weren’t very well educated, couldn’t count properly or read and weren’t anyone very important I suppose why would they until they made recording births compulsory? I don’t think anyone knows the exact dates of birth of Henry VIII’s wives Anne Boleyn or Catherine Howard, just estimates from historical accounts etc, perhaps because they were both not royalty so no one seen recording their births as important at the time….
- Jonathan Mason
March 8, 2014 at 7:25 pm -
*I met a guy a few years ago that claimed his mother didn’t know her exact age (I think he was from the Caribbean), this was just a few years ago, but I think back in the 16th century etc …
It is still common in the Caribbean today, because often people cannot afford to pay the registration fee at the time of birth due to additional expenses related to childbirth, and not being able to work. In addition in some countries like the Dominican Republic it is the responsibility of the father to register the child, and if he does not feel like it or does not acknowledge paternity, then, oh well!
Because of this births are often registered late, sometimes years late, and memories as to the exact date of birth can be shaky, and the name of the father may not be reliable either.
- Jonathan Mason
- The Blocked Dwarf
March 8, 2014 at 6:26 pm -
““Virgin Mary was probably under age”
I’ve not checked recently but as far as I know the best theological money is on her having been 13-ish which was the age of majority (and by extension ‘consent’). Whatever her exact age was I think it is pretty clear she was not the ‘woman’ she is commonly portrayed as and today Joseph would have found himself ‘yewtreed’ before the donkey’s hooves had had time to get dusty . Indeed I bet he’d have fallen foul of the RSPCA as well as the NCPCC too….
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 9:25 pm -
The Blocked Dwarf,
Re: “ “Virgin Mary was probably under age”
I’ve not checked recently but as far as I know the best theological money is on her having been 13-ish which was the age of majority (and by extension ‘consent’). Whatever her exact age was I think it is pretty clear she was not the ‘woman’ she is commonly portrayed as and today Joseph would have found himself ‘yewtreed’ before the donkey’s hooves had had time to get dusty . Indeed I bet he’d have fallen foul of the RSPCA as well as the NCPCC too….”
But it wasn’t *Joseph* that got her pregnant – it was *god* (if the stories to be believed)….
3 years younger than she could get married in Britain today, it’s not been the done thing generally for a long time to get married so young – but it’s not particularly surprising for biblical times either – ordinary women probably didn’t think oh i’ll put my education/career etc first before getting married – marriage was quite likely their main goal in life – she maybe didn’t even go to school….
- Lucozade
- Ed P
March 8, 2014 at 7:04 pm -
Err, as she became pregnant, it follows she was not pre-pubescent. Ayesha was.
Why bring up an example from 2000 years ago – it does not seem relevant.
- Jonathan Mason
March 8, 2014 at 7:28 pm -
Why bring up an example from 2000 years ago – it does not seem relevant.
In what year did relevancy start?
- Ed P
March 8, 2014 at 8:10 pm -
Relevant to modern child-protection and age of consent laws. And before you say my muslim example is irrelevant, the point I was making is about those followers using their leader’s example in today’s society to justify their aberrant and abhorrent behaviour.
(Please excuse my cautious phrases – I do not wish to caue offense.) - Mudplugger
March 8, 2014 at 9:11 pm -
Ed P
I don’t think the current Muslim offenders give a second thought about their ancient leader’s example regarding young flesh, they are simply opportunists in a society where some young girls can become available to them.
The real scandal is that their own community has been well aware of this actvity for years but, because their young males are beyond reproach and the target females are invariable non-Muslim, then it is not seen as worthy of intervention.
I suggest that a far greater number of girls have been subject to this real offence than any carried out by the parade of alleged celebrity ‘paedos’ currently under the tabloid cosh. For some reason it doesn’t seem to warrant the same degree of attention.
- Ed P
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 9:04 pm -
Ed P,
Re: “Err, as she became pregnant, it follows she was not pre-pubescent. Ayesha was”
Did Ayesha have any children?
I don’t know anything about the quran really but I do know in the past in Britain and among royalty etc some kids were ‘engaged’ to be married as babies, or even before they were born but these were marriages of convince rather than based on attraction or anything like that – so even after marriage it wasn’t always consumated straight away and they didn’t necessarily start living together straight away either, it was more to secure an alliance or inheritance etc. Don’t know what the situation was with Ayesha though….
- Ed P
March 9, 2014 at 10:51 am -
He married her when she was 7, but did not consumate the marriage until she was 10.
- Lucozade
March 9, 2014 at 10:53 pm -
Ed P,
Re: “He married her when she was 7, but did not consumate the marriage until she was 10”
Ahh I see. Never heard much about the quran….
- Ed P
- Jonathan Mason
- Lucozade
- Jonathan Mason
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 12:32 pm -
Re: “In fact, why not silence the only witness to your sexual desires? Why take the risk that she may go to court in 30 years time, and you may be ruined for having sex with that lingerie model who said she was 25? Why not wring her neck instead?”
I think it takes a very special type of sicko to do that – but then again, there are some out there that would do this kind of thing, probably not wise to give them further incentive….
I think the ‘are you in favour of all this ‘free-love’ business?’ scenario is only really a problem if they don’t except ‘no, not really’ as an answer. I’ve taken lifts from people i’ve just met randomly in the past and luckily never had any problems – only once I had a problem where a fake taxi driver, who I thought was real because i’d just phoned a taxi, tricked me and stole my wallet. I know bad things can happen when you except lifts from strangers or get into a strangers car – but it’s not a fore gone conclusion, some people are just trying to be helpful.
I do think even the fact that that Derryn Hinch isn’t sure *what* age the girl was and that for all he actually knows she *could* have been 15, just shows what a hypocritical idiot he is – how can he criticise others when he can’t even be 100% sure he’s not done the same himself? I don’t know….
- The Blocked Dwarf
March 8, 2014 at 12:39 pm -
” Both men and women took protecting their young from danger as their first duty, not last”
One of the “Dad’s Rules” my teenage sons had to adhere to , and that they found particularly onerous, was my INSISTENCE that “Girlfriends Don’t Sleep Over’- they walked the girl home at whatever time of night, whatever the weather or distance or they paid a taxi. Don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t a ‘moral’ thing, I was happy for them to spend all evening having freaky deaky animal sex swinging together from their bedroom light fittings if they so desired but The Bestes Mama In The World was, and is,a violent Paranoid Psychotic and it was probably better for said Girls to stay out of the shower in the mornings.
The thing that surprised me was that it was the girls , often way under 18 and sometimes under 16, who were adamant about walking home alone at night. THEY COULD TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES. They truly believed that a drunk-on-alco-pop ‘slip’ of a girl dressed in what I would have called a ‘belt’ needed no ‘bodyguard’.
One night , at around 01:00, I got a call from the mother of the girl whom my son had walked home. She, the mother, was incandescent that I had FORCED my son to walk several miles in the wet and dark with her daughter. That was abusive of me [sic]. Her daughter needed no protector. Her 13 year old hashed-up, wkd’ed up , near naked daughter. I kid you not.
- Jonathan Mason
March 8, 2014 at 5:08 pm -
TV journalist and broadcaster Jon Snow, an acquaintance of mine from our days at the University of Liverpool in the late 60’s and early 70’s, recently admitted that he could not meet a woman without thinking about sex.
This could easily include some who were under age. Surely it is only a matter of time before this scoundrel is arrested under the Yewtree Act, dragged off to the Tower of London for interrogation under torture, and charged with exciting female TV viewers.
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 5:42 pm -
Jonathan Mason,
Re: “TV journalist and broadcaster Jon Snow, an acquaintance of mine from our days at the University of Liverpool in the late 60′s and early 70′s, recently admitted that he could not meet a woman without thinking about sex.
This could easily include some who were under age. Surely it is only a matter of time before this scoundrel is arrested under the Yewtree Act, dragged off to the Tower of London for interrogation under torture, and charged with exciting female TV viewers”
Merely having *thoughts* will probably be a crime soon – and this disclosure could be used as evidence against him.
Though i’m sure he’s exaggerating and just means he thought about it a lot, lol….
- Jonathan Mason
March 8, 2014 at 7:18 pm -
But can he PROVE that none of them were under age? Bill Roache was probably exaggerating too, and look where he ended up. (In the dock.)
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 8:16 pm -
Jonathan Mason,
Re: “But can he PROVE that none of them were under age? Bill Roache was probably exaggerating too, and look where he ended up. (In the dock.)”
Now I always thought the age of consent was about actually *having* sex – and for below a certain age other ‘sexual’ type relations too – (these days that also extends to arrangements made on the internet etc) not just *thinking* about it in your own head and keeping it to yourself (that’ll be the next thing), lol….
- Lucozade
- Jonathan Mason
March 8, 2014 at 7:32 pm -
Snow also admits to having an affair with a librarian twice his age when he was in 6th form college. This needs to be investigated, because she might have “groomed” him when he was in the 5th form, or even the 4th form.
- Jonathan Mason
- Lucozade
- The OSC
March 8, 2014 at 5:53 pm -
Dear Anna,
“She saw nothing wrong in displaying her pubescent body around the house in front of a succession of young men who had no genetic bond with her; inevitably one was attracted to her … That is Paedophilia …”
Atraction to, and sexual acts with, pubescent 15-years-old is not Paedophilia, by definition.
Never has been, never will be.
TY
The OSC
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 10:07 pm -
OSC,
Re: “Atraction to, and sexual acts with, pubescent 15-years-old is not Paedophilia, by definition”
Not all 15 year olds are even ‘pubescent’ (weight gain aside) I was the same size as I am now at that age, same shoe size, height etc….
- The OSC
March 8, 2014 at 11:02 pm -
Almost all are, but, the point is, the line says they
OSC
- The OSC
March 8, 2014 at 11:03 pm -
… are
- Margaret Jervis
March 8, 2014 at 11:16 pm -
Yeah – I remember those creeps leaning on your idiot words in the hope of some jollies… easily repulsed.
- Lucozade
March 9, 2014 at 12:23 am -
The OSC,
Re: “Almost all are, but, the point is, the line says they
… are :D”
I wasn’t I think I was fully grown by then, I think my sister and a few of my friends were too. Everyones different though I suppose….
- Margaret Jervis
- The OSC
- The OSC
- Lucozade
- Engineer
March 8, 2014 at 7:32 pm -
When I was a schoolboy (quite a few years ago), and I or one of my classmates missed the school bus home, we started walking. It wasn’t uncommon for a passing teacher, also on their way home, to stop their car and offer a lift. Nothing untoward ever happened, certainly not to me, and as far as I’m aware not to any of my classmates either.
Talking to my next door neighbour about his daughter’s longer journey to and from school as she started at secondary school, he mentioned that teachers are now banned from giving lifts to pupils, except under certain rigidly defined circumstances and only if an independent witness was present at all times (this may be a local rule – one rather hopes that a degree of common sense applies more generaly). Leaving aside the question of how they know the independent witness will be morally above board in all cases, how many eleven and twelve year old girls are left to walk a mile and half home unsupervised so that no finger of suspicion may be pointed at a teacher?
Is the cart preceding the horse here? What happens should (God forbid) harm befall a twelve year old a few minutes after a teacher whizzes past them safe in their car?
- macheath
March 10, 2014 at 4:30 pm -
December 2011: Newcastle teacher Martin Davies was suspended and put under investigaiton for gross misconduct for giving a pupil a lift home – the pupil in question being old enough to be married or in the army.
- Engineer
March 10, 2014 at 7:22 pm -
Strewth. Poor chap. Talk about gross unfairness.
The cart most definitely IS preceding the horse.
- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 9:05 pm -
macheath,
Re: “December 2011: Newcastle teacher Martin Davies was suspended and put under investigaiton for gross misconduct for giving a pupil a lift home – the pupil in question being old enough to be married or in the army.
I don’t think this would have been a big issue at my school at the time I was there. My dad worked at the school and he gave some of the neighbours kids a lift occasionally….
- macheath
March 11, 2014 at 9:11 am -
Thus is one of the most chilling aspects of the story:
“A week later one of the office staff at the college pulled me to one side, having heard about me giving the boy a lift, and said it was a stupid thing to do because I was opening myself to all sorts of allegations.”These days, all schools are required to have a named (and trained) member of staff responsible for Child Protection. Now ask yourself, what kind of person would actively want to take on such a position in the first place? And, given that the job is likely to go to the candidate with the strongest grasp of current jargon and fashionable attitudes, what effect is this having on school policies and teachers’ careers?
- macheath
- Engineer
- macheath
- Carol42
March 8, 2014 at 7:56 pm -
You just can’t win, offer a lift or help you are putting yourself at risk of later accusations. It is a terrible comment that, even as a woman, I would hesitate when in the past it would have been almost automatic. When that child was missing in Scotland, before the body was found, it was claimed that a small child was seen alone in the morning. Of course it may not have been true but surely no one would drive past a child that young? It has become a sad world for children, without rules for many teenagers and very dangerous for some men. I wonder why none of the really big pop stars of that era have never even been questioned as I am sure they had far more underage girls than any of the accused, too famous or too rich?
- Lucozade
March 8, 2014 at 10:38 pm -
Carol42,
Re: “I wonder why none of the really big pop stars of that era have never even been questioned as I am sure they had far more underage girls than any of the accused, too famous or too rich?”
Too popular probably – everything seems to boil down to a popularity contest these days.
I suppose a lot of fans, groupies etc would probably make up a juicy story about one of their idols too though, so I don’t necessarily believe all the stories that float about about pop stars etc that come from fans/groupies….
- Lucozade
- Chris
March 8, 2014 at 8:14 pm -
It was a given in more “unelightened” times that a female with the healthy attributes of fertility would be appealing – “If there’s grass on the pitch!” was the guffawing of many men, most of which were fathers, and good fathers at that – who, as with their civilised “unenlightened” peers and their forefathers before them, knew that being a normal human being involved being both a good parent/friend/mentor and also a red-blooded sexual being. Unfortunately for all now, as Anna states, it is human nature to be attracted to the most fertile and appealing in society – and, as Rupert Murdoch was so keen to show us on a daily basis not so long back, some “underage children” had sex appeal as they had the tools of fertility at their disposal. That isn’t paedophilia.
All things being ridiculous in recent times, I find myself challenging my own attraction to young women now thoroughly reviewed. It’s just as well infantilisation is rendering a growing number of overage kidults as unappealing as their sexless (yet often plastic & vulgar) teenage brethren, with many more falling under this hideous spell with every passing day. One thing (deliberately?) lost in translation is/will be the fact that 10/15/20/30/40/50 years ago it was perfectly possible for teenage girls to possess a very adult ‘sexual allure’ – now of course that is something most young women are devoid of. Another fact of this devolution is the fact that young women in the UK seem to have been conditioned not to find men like me (handsome, intelligent, cultured, discerning, funny and incredibly modest ) attractive in preference to hapless pillocks.
Which, bearing in mind I’m starting to see every “bird” as a chattering bright red exclamation mark (borne of my own experience as well as the surging tide of idiocy) is perhaps just as well….. - Eric Hardcastle
March 8, 2014 at 10:38 pm -
As a Melbourne resident it is difficult to escape Derryn Hinch. The Perth based UK comedian Ben Elton after being interviewed by him described Hinch as being like “the angriest parking warden attendant one will ever meet”. I’ve often pondered what drives Hinch who has become a tireless ‘pedo’ hunter not unlike the one referred to as MWT. Their obsession with the subject is bizarre and the damage they can cause, as outlined by Ms Raccoon dangerous.
Hinch’s last conviction was for almost derailing the trial of the murderer of the ABC worker Jill Meagher in 2012. It was a case that galvanised and shocked much of Melbourne, happening as it did in the civilised and sophisticated coffee shoppe area of the city centre.
One can only try to imagine the feelings of Megaher’s Irish family who were planning their ‘trip of a lifetime’ to sunny Australia to visit their daughter and recently acquired husband in their new successful life, only to now go to retrieve her body and sit through the dreadful trial of her killer.
What followed Hinch’s trial for Contempt of Court was enlightening. His rabid supporters were out in force and demonstrating. Not for them was this a trial about the fact Hinch committed Contempt for the sixth time and may have caused a mis-trial resulting in millions of $$ costs and a delay of over a year. This was the Establishment trying to silence Hinch in his ‘pedo exposing’ activities.
Not a thought was given to Meagher’s grieving family by a single person including Hinch.And then 6 weeks ago Hinch went onto a nationally broadcast tabloid TV show to announce his ‘brave and courageous” decision ( as his supporters called it) to chose 5 weeks jail rather than pay the $100, 000 fine.
This was of course picked up by Irish TV stations and run over the course of 3 days. Whilst I ( and no doubt many others) were being thrashed on internet boards and sane lawyers attempting to explain why Hinch was being jailed for what was a serious crime were being thrashed by talkback radio callers accusing them basically of being ‘pedo supporters’, not a thought of even the tiniest description was uttered by Hinch supporters, and I’m not sure that they cared or even realised, the distress Jill Meagher’s family in Ireland must have been going through to see an Australian shock jock re-hashing the most terrible event in their lives.
Hinch apologised to the court on the last day of his Contempt trial. He has never at any time apologised to the Meagher family for the stress he must have put them through.
- John Galt
March 9, 2014 at 8:37 am -
” Why take the risk that she may go to court in 30 years time, and you may be ruined for having sex with that lingerie model who said she was 25? Why not wring her neck instead?”
Wasn’t this partially the basis for the murder of April Jones?
Mark Bridger abducted and sexually assaulted her and then to prevent her from being used as a witness against him, murdered her and disposed of her body in such a manner that it still hasn’t been recovered and now probably won’t be. This is not to say that he wouldn’t have done the same had the circumstances arisen within a different cultural and legislative climate, but it seems to me that a living, breathing April Jones – even though subjected to a sexual assault is still better than a dead one.
This is not to create a climate for the support of paedophiles, but the current hysteria is serving no-one, especially not the victims of actual paedophiles.
- Lucozade
March 9, 2014 at 9:32 am -
John Galt,
Re: “Mark Bridger abducted and sexually assaulted her and then to prevent her from being used as a witness against him, murdered her and disposed of her body in such a manner that it still hasn’t been recovered and now probably won’t be. This is not to say that he wouldn’t have done the same had the circumstances arisen within a different cultural and legislative climate, but it seems to me that a living, breathing April Jones – even though subjected to a sexual assault is still better than a dead one”
That might have been the reason he killed her, but it’s hard to tell because it seems with some that have done things like this that the killings part of the package. I did get the impression, I think it was thought that that was probably the reason for the murder of Tia Sharpe – for the guy who killed her to avoid being caught by her telling, but for some the killing seems like part of the objective – it varies. Either way it’s sick. But yeah, coming down overly hard on e.g some one that’s been with someone a few days shy of their 16th birthday or something might be enough to persuade those that might have it on them to kill for those reasons, to carry it out – which is something you wouldn’t want to encourage if it could be avoided really….
- Margaret Jervis
March 10, 2014 at 9:22 pm -
I don’t think child killers think like this for the most part. I think they are mostly those with psycho/sociopathic tendencies – Ian Huntley said things like – well I had to kill her because she screamed – Fred West said similar things. they didn’t want to you understand, just they were being inconsiderate to him. They are objects in his way. I don’t think the psychology is bettered than in Patricia Highsmith’s portrayal of Tom Ripley. Some people might do these things through blind panic – but abductions require some planning. Such cases have always existed but are thankfully rare.
- Lucozade
March 11, 2014 at 10:41 am -
Margaret Jervis,
Re: “I don’t think child killers think like this for the most part. I think they are mostly those with psycho/sociopathic tendencies – Ian Huntley said things like – well I had to kill her because she screamed – Fred West said similar things. they didn’t want to you understand, just they were being inconsiderate to him. They are objects in his way. I don’t think the psychology is bettered than in Patricia Highsmith’s portrayal of Tom Ripley. Some people might do these things through blind panic – but abductions require some planning. Such cases have always existed but are thankfully rare”
I suppose reasons for the killing varies form case to case, mostly it probably is that the sexual assault was the main goal and the attacker (because of their psycho/sociopathic nature) then kills their victim in order to silence them and perhaps avoid being caught, but for some, and I thought this might have been the case with the Moors Murderers, it’s the killing that is the main objective and any torture or sexual assault in the lead up is just because they *can*, or to make it even worse for the victim e.g I think they know (because of a witness) that the last boy to have been killed had bean bludgeoned to death for no real reason, with no sexual assault.
Most kill to avoid detection of a sexual assault or other crime, to avoid the victim telling anyone, but some do it with the specific intent to murder all along, and any other crime e.g theft, sexual assault is done because they *can* I guess. That Joanna Dennehy in the papers recently wasn’t sexually motivated I don’t think or Jack the ripper….
- Lucozade
- Margaret Jervis
- Lucozade
- Eric Hardcastle
March 9, 2014 at 10:47 am -
Hinch really is beneath contempt. He is now criticising the judge in his Contempt Of Court case and calling it an ‘injustice” which means he lied to the court when he apologised for that Contempt. His fevered followers are frothing at the mouth with excitement as though he is a crusader.
Apparently they are still confusing this Contempt over a murder trial with his previous Contempt’s over ‘pedo’ priests.
Now he claims he is working with a QC on a proposed law for a US style Sex Offender’s register which ehw ill present to to the PM Tony Abbott.
I doubt this will go anywhere. Abbott may be a ‘conservative’ but he is also very close to Cardinal George Pell recently appointed as CEO of Vatican Inc by Pope Francis. Pell himself was falsely accused of sex assault by a man when Pell was a scout leader. He has had to steer the Catholic Church through the difficult Royal commission into sex assaults within the Church.
The Catholic Church is all powerful in Australia. In NSW they recently brought in a 10 year time limit for criminal compensation claims which has the self appointed campaigners screaming blue murder. The Church was behind as they watched victims/claimants line up time and time again for compensation as their memories ‘recovered’
I have spoken to a senior Victorian politician who is adamant they will not follow the US style offender’s register, rather they are happy with the UK style one they adopted where details are not published. A senior policeman has told em that the police actively oppose any sort of public register because of the problems they know it will cause,
So with Hinch he is no different than the various UK self appointed campaigners.Ans still not an iota of apology for the Megaher family.
- EyesWideShut
March 9, 2014 at 11:53 am -
And speaking of the dear old Daily Fail, has anyone seen today’s carefully worded article about self-styled paedo-hunter, Kieren Parsons? (love that mis-spelt forename: it’s like spelling John “Gonh”). By all accounts this is a man who was found guilty of burning down a school when he was 17, and several other offences, I believe. His activities – creating a false online identity as a 14 year old girl and then trawling for dates with adult men – are nothing more than pure entrapment and have already resulted in the suicide of a dupe. And yet a good proportion of the dumbos below the line in the Mail are shouting out that they support this sociopath and convicted arsonist. At what point did we decide that an obvious wrong-un like Parsons has any moral authority whatsoever, much less any legal standing? Parsons has merely found a new way of giving free rein to his anti-social, criminal impulses and this time earning plaudits for them from the peanut gallery. Have our brains been thoroughly addled by TV and films glorifying psychopathic vigilantes from “Death Wish” to “Dexter” so that we can no longer see how profoundly anti-democratic and dangerous this nonsense is? Parsons is laughing up his sleeve at his fan club.
- The OSC
March 9, 2014 at 6:32 pm -
- EyesWideShut
March 9, 2014 at 8:59 pm -
Oh yes. Good Will Huntings Facebook Page . How thrilled he must be to have a link to it, from anywhere. As long as we’re talking about Good Will Hunting
- EyesWideShut
- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 10:45 am -
EyesWideShut,
Re: “At what point did we decide that an obvious wrong-un like Parsons has any moral authority whatsoever, much less any legal standing? Parsons has merely found a new way of giving free rein to his anti-social, criminal impulses and this time earning plaudits for them from the peanut gallery. Have our brains been thoroughly addled by TV and films glorifying psychopathic vigilantes from “Death Wish” to “Dexter” so that we can no longer see how profoundly anti-democratic and dangerous this nonsense is?”
Exactly, whether you think paedophiles are worse than arsonists and general thugs or not, the man is in no position to lecture the rest of us about morals and he obviously has little respect for the law….
- The OSC
- EyesWideShut
March 9, 2014 at 12:51 pm -
And while I’m up for it, I predict that the paedo-hunters will turn on each other, as such groups always do, and before you know it they will be accusing their fellow witch-smellers of concealing their own paedophile tendencies behind a mask of righteous vigilantism. Because they are sociopaths. And that is what sociopaths do. Then the paedo-hunter groupies will have to find some other bully-boys to admire and cheer on. But as they have the long-term memories of brain-damaged goldfish, and the moral sense of a feather bolster, it won’t be long before they find another bunch of violent thugs and predators to sentimentalise. The fact that the police said they were “torn” as to the actions of this British Schutzstaffel merely confirms how far they have lost the plot. If the police knew what they were there for, the likes of Parsons and his merry men would be closed down so fast their heads would spin.
- Eric Hardcastle
March 10, 2014 at 5:03 am -
I think you could be right and a poster on here as sent me links to where one pedo chaser has fallen out with David Icke after he ‘hired’ her as an announcer. She’s also a writer on the Express which is bizarre and a worry.
But this is a limited area and each pedo hunter wants to be the chief Witch Hunter, a position MWT seems to occupy at present.
I can see them being very vicious to each other as , let’s face it these are not very sane people.
Those that fall out with Icke became bitter enemies with him and watching Icke being confronted by a detractor is an education- he starts off all nice and concilatory until his mask slips. A pretty vicious character I think,
- Eric Hardcastle
- Acoustic Village
March 9, 2014 at 1:11 pm -
As usual, Anna hits the nail on the head, especially with the last few paragraphs. We have the Miley Cyruses allowed to do what they do in full knowledge that their core fan base is 6 to 10 year olds and yet feign moral outrage when a 40 year old shags a 16 year old, or when a historical romp with a 15 year old comes to light.
We are drowning in our own hypocrisy and lack of will to agree on a moral code. All that’s left is to make entertainment out of those who “get caught” or who are “found out”. The comparison with how animals protect their young is apt. When we used to do that we were laughed at and mocked. Now we pay the price.
- EyesWideShut
March 9, 2014 at 3:52 pm -
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we are not interested in child protection at all. That is the very last thing we are interested in. Because if we were, we would sit down and figure out how to do it properly, to the best of our ability, utilising the most reliable information and building on the most successful methods. Applying resources where they are most effective; identifying risk and quantifying it; examining what works and what doesn’t. Sifting the wheat from the chaff. All the things you do when you actually give a damn.
Instead we are building cloud castles of conspiracy theory about politicians, social workers, TV personalities, Freemasons, lizards, lizard politicians, social workers, TV personalities and Freemasons; blowing kisses at sociopaths and arsonists as the new moral arbiters of our society; protesting government and state inadequacies in combating child exploitation while enabling the para-state in the shape of the third sector to replace elected representatives as the source of normative law: colluding with a demoralised and heavily politicised police in undermining their own democratic functions and encouraging them to reconstitute themselves as a quasi-Fascist element pronouncing on guilt before or in the absence of due process; giving the media a “free pass” on the promulgation of falsehood and incitement to violence at the very moment they are being subjected to a judicial enquiry on their extra-legal business plans; and of course thoroughly frightening and confusing “we the people” to the point where we will ignore a child in obvious distress in case we are accused of causing it.Some bloody concern for children here.
- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 6:51 am -
EyesWideShut,
Re: “I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we are not interested in child protection at all” etc….
Very true all of that. They’re acting for their own selfish needs and agendas and probably only give a shit about the ‘victims’ or most children’s needs/wellbeing etc in so far as it serves them….
- Lucozade
- EyesWideShut
- EyesWideShut
March 9, 2014 at 9:17 pm -
Lol have you all checked this out this OSC?
Looking forward to their next contribution, which I am sure will be – straight to the point. And indubitable, oh yes. Not to say downright impressive. And on the nail.
Now, OSC, having said that, could you ever be absolute darlings and just – f8ck off. Take your agenda somewhere else. Byeeeee
- The OSC
March 9, 2014 at 9:34 pm -
What is the OSC?
What are our ‘Agenda’?
Why be such a clueless newbie?
TY
The OSC
- EyesWideShut
March 10, 2014 at 1:11 am -
Oh, I love that expression “newbie”, it’s like “fresher” and “deb” Aren’t we all so easily narked on the Net? You’d think I’d peed in your soup the way you carry on, lovie.
Look, I’m so completely unimportant and irrelevant in the great scheme of things, OSC, I suggest you don’t waste your time instructing me and get back to your terribly significant work. Whatever I think about you or anything won’t make a single jot of difference to anybody, so if I were you I wouldn’t waste your time interacting with me. I’m no great scalp to hang off your belt. Go after someone who actually has some influence: like, I dunno, Keir Starmer.
- The OSC
March 10, 2014 at 2:15 am -
All have their own story.
The OSC.
- The OSC
- EyesWideShut
- The OSC
- GildasTheMonk
March 10, 2014 at 8:56 am -
“We have engendered an atmosphere where our young females act as temptress, and we demand that any male who is so tempted is ruined for life, more effectively than if he committed a murder.”
Quite so and well put. What “we” – or rather the politico-media-legal establishment is a world where there is a disproportionate response to real issues. I saw the other week that some young thug who punched a cyclist who had complained about his behaviour, and killed the cyclist in so doing, got 3 years. 3 years? I was astonished he’d even been prosecuted…
It is not that any one is defending paedophiles – in fact I would quite happily employ the harshest practices of medieval punishment on most of them – but the intense sense of concern over the safety of many of these trials, and the disproportionate costs and attention. This is a difficult area, but some D list pop star who cops off with a 15 year old fan is not, I am afraid, in the same category as a gang of men grooming under age girls with booze on the streets of Rochdale, Oldham or in any number of places. Sexual mores change, and sexual relations are not always straight forward. I am willing to be taken to task for that, because I have expressed myself imperfectly.
The cult and currency of modern “success” for many is “fame” or “being famous” – a bizarre aspect of modern culture. Just a many place a disproportionate regard for those who achieve this status, perhaps there is an ironic poison in the chalice of celebrity, the dis proportionate picking over of matters long gone which deserved a kick in the groin and not 10 week trial paid for by the state (us) and the inevitable claim that it is not about the money, it’s about the vindication (and £20k please).
Meanwhile, bankers and politicians who wrecked the country go unpunished, people struggle to get by, pensioners struggle with their heating, the legal aid system is seriously underfunded, and the civil justice system is in all but chaos and does not serve the ordinary man.
Imbalance. Unsafe. Immature. Problematic.
G the M - Moor Larkin
March 10, 2014 at 11:31 am -
* you will never, ever, change the basic evolutionary fact that we are all attracted to the youngest, fittest, healthiest example of the human race that we can possibly get into bed with. *
Do men or women in the first world relate on such an evolutionary basis? I can see how the “search for youth” might operate in a harsh hunter-gatherer environment where human animals die of old age at 45 but I don’t think it really operates in the modern western world. A lot of it is about “the market”, much of which is dictated by fashion. We have had for several decades now a female fashion industry shaped by camp folk who like nothing more than a boyishly-hipped stick-like female who is barely allowed to be post-pubescent in appearance. Soft-core pornography seems to have specialised in hairless women, and men; I read that this is often simply an industrial hygiene issue, but whilst perhaps accidental, it seems again to contribute to the notions of under-development as “sexy”. Much of the sex fashion here in the UK seems dictated by the American porn market, which also seems to have a have had an unhealthy interest in sodomy for some years, but perhaps moor importantly body hair is verboten. The French and German attitudes to female under-arm hair are classic of this cultural divide. I’m not sure what all the psychology is here but that it is “market-driven” seems certain. I noticed that as soon as the Savile effect gained traction that all the adverts for “partners in your area” that one gets on the likes of yahoo and many other mainstream providers, switched to very mature-looking, hefty women with child-bearing hips and big thighs, entirely unlike the previous skinny-look of their adverts of weeks before. If there was some “evolutionary” thing going on I think the female ideal would still be the stone-age pear-shaped woman.
- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 12:14 pm -
Moor Larkin,
Re: “Do men or women in the first world relate on such an evolutionary basis?” etc….
Exactly, for the last few centuries at the very least, what most people found attractive at that time has all been about whatever was ‘fashionable’ at the time really.
In the Victorian days it was fashionable and considered attractive for women to be pale with a tiny waist, so tiny some of them passed out from tightening their corsets so tight and some even got some of their ribs removed to have an even smaller waist – this is not the healthiest condition to be in for pregnancy, in the 1920’s a ‘boyish figure’ was fashionable – and therefore probably more successful with the men, then an hour glass figure was fashionable in the 1950’s, perhaps one of the more healthy fashions, but still not really an overly common natural occurance among ordinary women – most women will not look like ‘Jane Mansfield’ , back to skinny in the 1960’s and these days you see women on tv e.g Kim Kardashian, Nicki Minaj, even getting buttock implants – surely this would have been unheard of 20 or 30 years ago? And as for the fashion of hair removal, I think it is just that, a fashion, and is no more or less attractive than having hair. While I think leg shaving is is probably attractive and under arm shaving more practical and hygienic if your using deodereant etc, I do think the way some women over pluck their eye brows actually makes them look less attractive and, what ever anyone thinks about the fashion for shaving pubic hair (I heard and have seen it can cause skin infections and irritations), it’s hardly natural and certainly if someone naturally never had any pubic hair – you wouldn’t consider it a sign of ‘fertility’ would you? More likely stress, alopecia or worse…. :/ Though you hear plenty men complain about women who don’t do it…. Although the fashion could easily swing the other way if it was marketed to us as ‘fashionable’….
- Moor Larkin
March 10, 2014 at 12:24 pm -
I had to laugh at the publicity for “The Tudors” recently.
http://www.andreazuvich.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jonathan_rhys_meyers_in_the_tudors.jpg
Who knew Anne Boleyn had access to Immac………..- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 1:57 pm -
Moor Larkin,
Re: “I had to laugh at the publicity for “The Tudors” recently.
http://www.andreazuvich.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jonathan_rhys_meyers_in_the_tudors.jpg
Who knew Anne Boleyn had access to Immac………..”Lol I never noticed that before – the real Anne Boleyn probably had hairy legs and armpits an probably didn’t wear make up….
- Eddy
March 11, 2014 at 10:29 am -
I don’t know if Miss Boleyn shaved her body hair but she almost certainly used make up. Some make up of medieval times was mind bogglingly dangerous; lead compounds for example, though they do produce a nice white pallor. Shaving body hair goes back to the ancient Egyptians at least, perhaps further.
- Lucozade
March 11, 2014 at 11:40 am -
Eddy,
Re: “I don’t know if Miss Boleyn shaved her body hair but she almost certainly used make up. Some make up of medieval times was mind bogglingly dangerous; lead compounds for example, though they do produce a nice white pallor. Shaving body hair goes back to the ancient Egyptians at least, perhaps further”
Yeah I heard about that I think Elizabeth I probably used lead make up etc and that they painted in blue veins on the skin to make it look more translucent or something, but I didn’t know everybody used it or if it was as common in Anne Boleyn’s time?
There are a lot of hygiene, body care rituals etc that were used by ancient Greeks or Egyptians or Romans that were not commonly practiced in the 16th century at least in places like Britain, France etc. I think washing regularly with water was one tradition that that fell out of favour or wasn’t carried over. Apparently Elizabeth I was thought to have been really clean because she had a bath once every 3 months – whether she need to or not, and Louis XIV had only had one bath in his entire life – so I don’t think those sorts of individuals would be the type to shave their body hair on a regular basis (if your gonna do that why not just have a wash while your at it?), they just covered up the smell with perfume and wore wigs to hide their dirty, lice infested hair, which they might have had shaved or cut short. I don’t think British women were shaving their body hair all that much in the 19th century – I think that came along when shorter skirts and sleeveless tops/dresses came in….
- Eddy
- Lucozade
- Moor Larkin
- Jonathan Mason
March 10, 2014 at 9:10 pm -
I think what men find sexually attractive is pretty stable across different times and different cultures. Usually young women with athletic figures, smooth skin, shiny hair, big eyes, good teeth, perky breasts, flat stomachs, etc.
However this stage of human development does not last long past the late teens and rarely survives two pregnancies, so for commercial reasons the media promote various images that are deemed to be fashionable. The advantage of fashion is that even if you are not very attractive, you can follow the fashion and dye your hair red, wear huge ear rings, miniskirts, or whatever the current trend is, and this shows your peers that you are INTERESTED in being looked at. This of course involves spending money, which is what it is all about–selling junk clothing, makeup, and add-ons.
Fashion does sometimes change the emphasis on which part of the body is displayed for sexual show. For example in the miniskirt era, a good pair of thighs were a plus if you were a young maiden at the time, whereas these days the rump display is favored by prominent women such as Kim Kardashian, but maybe no more so than in the iconic photograph of Betty Grable bent over and looking back through her legs at us.
Models for clothing are usually skinny, simply because this is what shows the clothing off best–nothing to do with being sexy. If you look in medical catalogs you can often see low rent models or ordinary people “modeling” the clothing, but they do nothing to make the clothing look really elegant or stylish.
http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/285591-27513-53.jpg
Note how the amateur models stand face on to the camera and do not strike angular poses, which would be considered rather shocking in the field of hospital uniform marketing, as we do not want our nurses and techs to be too sexy when we are sick. Also note how these poses do nothing to display the clothing to advantage.
As far as hairlessness goes, depilation seems to have been the fashion as far back as the ancient Egyptians and Greek statues are pretty devoid of pubic hair too. The reason for this is that smooth skin is sexy. In pornography it is not so much a question of seeking images of immaturity, but that the viewer can see more details of normally hidden parts, and this is found to be arousing for many people.
- Jonathan Mason
March 10, 2014 at 9:21 pm -
Note how the jacket hangs here. Is this sexy?
http://doublethink.us.com/paala/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Rihanna-GQ-Cover.jpg
- Moor larkin
March 10, 2014 at 9:39 pm -
You should find some “Vintage” porn from the early days of photography Jonathan. It’s delightfully unforced and very hairy.
Your point about the Egyptians reminded me that most old Art is also devoid of hairiness isn’t it. I do wonder though if this is not so much related to “being sexy” as to rather the opposite – removing “sex” from the art. The figures become pure and godlike if there is no over sex to them… the innocence and purity of the child if you like. I know it’s often said nowadays that nudity in old art was just respectable porn but I think it’s intentions were to celebrate the beauty we feel about the human form but without the arousal of “sex” getting in the way.
If you read that article from NYT there is the curiosity that a woman photographer was banned from Instagram because she put a bikini shot of herself on it, but she had not had a bikini wax… thus she was deemed pornographic, yet the self-same shot with here hairless was perfectly acceptable. It is as if it is the overt sign of female adulthood that is the problem here, not the physical form. It’s a bit weird. The Americans are the same about boobs and nipples. Remember the huge fuss over the Jackson sister a few years ago?
- Jonathan Mason
March 11, 2014 at 6:22 am -
Moor, Moor, Moor. You may not experience arousal when perusing such classic art as the Judgement of Paris, the Rape of the Sabine Women or the rape of Leda by the Swan, or the gay snuff porn of the Martyrdom of St. Sebastian, but rest assured that these classical themes were so popular simply because the claim “oh, but its classical, innit!” gave a kind of exemption from the censors of the day and the Church and a chance to paint their girl and boyfriends naked. Had they tried to paint the Pope in his pajamas, or The Wedding Night of Henry the Eighth it would have been a different story for Rubens and Co., painters and interior decorators. The original audience would not have been drenched in Internet porn and would have seen these pictures as highly arousing, especially when they were on the bedroom ceiling.
- Jonathan Mason
March 11, 2014 at 6:32 am -
@Moor
The joys of classical art.
http://uploads3.wikipaintings.org/images/lucas-cranach-the-elder/the-judgement-of-paris-1540.jpg
Do not the three goddesses depicted here bear a startling resemblance to what I described in another post above as the universal idea of sexy womanhood?
- Moor Larkin
March 11, 2014 at 9:42 am -
@Jonathan
The most startling fact I once discovered in my minor foray into the history of Western Art was that naked female models were not allowed due to the religious sensibilities of the day, and so the classics were painted by men extrapolating from young male bodies. Perhaps in that sense, the modern trend of female fashion models who resemble adolescent boys in form, is a mere continuum of history. It might be interesting to compare and contrast what happened when painters started painting actual mature women but I had no idea when that might have started. Wiki reckons it was an elderly Raphael, making it about 1500. I suspect Lucas used boys.“Raphael in his later years is usually credited as the first artist to consistently use female models for the drawings of female figures, rather than studio apprentices or other boys with breasts added, who were previously used.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude_(art) - Lucozade
March 12, 2014 at 6:04 am -
Jonathan Mason,
Re: “The joys of classical art.
http://uploads3.wikipaintings.org/images/lucas-cranach-the-elder/the-judgement-of-paris-1540.jpg
Do not the three goddesses depicted here bear a startling resemblance to what I described in another post above as the universal idea of sexy womanhood?”
I don’t think women in that picture are all that ‘sexy’ looking, and while most people thought out the world probably think a fit, healthy, reasonably young woman is the most attractive, there are some countries that actually like over weight women:
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-countries-celebrating-female-obesity.php
So what is considered attractive is not necessily the same across the board….
- Moor Larkin
- Lucozade
March 11, 2014 at 10:04 am -
Moor larkin,
Re: “You should find some “Vintage” porn from the early days of photography Jonathan. It’s delightfully unforced and very hairy”
Or even just from the ’80’s or ’90’s….
Re: “Your point about the Egyptians reminded me that most old Art is also devoid of hairiness isn’t it. I do wonder though if this is not so much related to “being sexy” as to rather the opposite – removing “sex” from the art. The figures become pure and godlike if there is no over sex to them… the innocence and purity of the child if you like. I know it’s often said nowadays that nudity in old art was just respectable porn but I think it’s intentions were to celebrate the beauty we feel about the human form but without the arousal of “sex” getting in the way”
I agree, I agree with Jonathan that smooth skin (e.g legs) can seem ‘sexy’ (and looks smarter) and yes, removing pubic hair does enable people to view more of the private parts thus some porn viewers may find that more ‘interesting’, but pubic hair and under arm hair is what people get during puberty, whatever it’s function actually is (I thought it might have been to catch sweat and help avoid rubbing etc), it appears at the same time the other organs are getting ready to function for reproduction – therefore it is an instantly recognisable/visual sign of adult hood/fertility, and a lot of people probably would have associated this with ‘sex’ and found it a bit titillating, we’re encouraged to find pubic hair revolting now and not in the least ‘sexy’ – but I don’t think it was always the case, so I agree the pubic hair would possibly have been left out of the paintings to make them appear more ‘decent’ and less tillilating, people would think of ‘sex’ at the sight of pubic or under arm hair as it is associated with puberty and ability to reproduce.
A lot of artists like painting the human form for it’s own sake, to depict the shape, colour, texture etc – and their aim isn’t always to produce something that will be sexually titillating to others. We had to paint a naked woman once in an art class at college – I think it’s really just about depicting or capturing the human form, shape, texture rather than producing something sexually attractive – that’s why people of any age, weight etc could pose as an artists model. The same as getting the texture, shape, colour of a bowl of fruit or and animal etc….
Re: “If you read that article from NYT there is the curiosity that a woman photographer was banned from Instagram because she put a bikini shot of herself on it, but she had not had a bikini wax… thus she was deemed pornographic, yet the self-same shot with here hairless was perfectly acceptable. It is as if it is the overt sign of female adulthood that is the problem here, not the physical form. It’s a bit weird”
Yet if you go down to your local swimming pool (or at least if you did 15 years ago), what would you be more likely to have seen…? lol
- theantifeminist
March 20, 2014 at 8:53 am -
@MoorLarkin – you claim those hideous fat stone age fertility dolls as examples of what men ‘really want’ in women and yet at the same time argue that the preponderance of youthful and nubile females in modern Western art is simply a result of most of the artists being pederasts who weren’t allowed to paint ‘real women’ anyway.
Hmmm.
Men are obviously hardwired to find nubile teenage girls attractive and its equally obvious that society wouldn’t require the extent of this ‘paedo’ hysteria if this wasn’t the case.
- Jonathan Mason
- Lucozade
March 11, 2014 at 9:05 am -
Jonathan Mason,
Re: “I think what men find sexually attractive is pretty stable across different times and different cultures. Usually young women with athletic figures, smooth skin, shiny hair, big eyes, good teeth, perky breasts, flat stomachs, etc.
However this stage of human development does not last long past the late teens and rarely survives two pregnancies”
It does if your weight doesn’t fluctuate too much and you take care of your teeth. And how does the size/shape of someones eyes change from the teens to 20’s to 30’s to 40’s etc?
My skin was way better in my 20’s than it ever was in my early teens. We all age eventually, but not that soon. Weight gain, not looking after your teeth and poor grooming are the things that can ruin your firgure/appearance in your 20’s and early 30’s – but this can happen to teenagers too. No one (unless they’ve got something wrong with them) is over the hill by their 20’s or anyway near it.
- Jonathan Mason
March 11, 2014 at 6:31 pm -
No, of course people’s eyes do not change in size, though actually I have a program for taking selfie pictures on my Nokia phone that will allow the user to make the eyes larger if required, so clearly this is considered a desirable feature both on a person and on a phone.
Yes, but the attractiveness of women depends largely on their success on at least maintaining an illusion that they are still young, and they spend billions of dollars on this. Consider that women’s magazines are predicated entirely on the idea that exercise, dieting and cosmetics keep you looking young and thus more desirable to sexual partners, an effect that may be enhanced by consumption of alcohol and by dim lighting. However stretch marks tend to be ineradicable so once the fashions come off, the real truth is hard to hide.
However, in many parts of the world, and I would certainly include North Florida, many women are physically washed up by the age of 25 due to child bearing, a diet of fast food, and working long hours so not getting enough sleep. The more affluent women have it better of course, as they always have had. Thus Mrs Cameron and Mrs Obama look younger than their chronological age, whereas Christine Keeler does not.
- Lucozde
March 11, 2014 at 9:21 pm -
Jonathan Mason,
Re: “Yes, but the attractiveness of women depends largely on their success on at least maintaining an illusion that they are still young, and they spend billions of dollars on this. Consider that women’s magazines are predicated entirely on the idea that exercise, dieting and cosmetics keep you looking young and thus more desirable to sexual partners, an effect that may be enhanced by consumption of alcohol and by dim lighting. However stretch marks tend to be ineradicable so once the fashions come off, the real truth is hard to hide”
How do you define ‘young’? If someone in their teens has a bad diet, doesn’t exercise enough and neglects to groom themselves they will tend to look frumpy and run the risk of weight gain and stretch marks as well – this is not an ‘age’ thing at all, it is a looking after yourself thing and it applies to everyone, taking care of your appearance is not trying to ‘look younger’ – especially not at 25. The only thing I can see where age may come into it a bit is that someone who has been neglecting themselves for 25 years will probably look worse than someone that has only had 15 years to neglect themselves. Teenagers can get stretch marks too, either from growing upwards or putting weight on too quickly, it makes no difference what age you are – if you don’t look after yourself you will usually look bad – sometimes the damage is reversible, sometimes not.
Re: “However, in many parts of the world, and I would certainly include North Florida, many women are physically washed up by the age of 25 due to child bearing, a diet of fast food, and working long hours so not getting enough sleep. The more affluent women have it better of course, as they always have had. Thus Mrs Cameron and Mrs Obama look younger than their chronological age, whereas Christine Keeler does not”
I’ve never been to Florida so I wouldn’t know, but don’t actually think David Cameron does look all that great for his age, I know a lot of men in their 40’s that look better than him.
- Lucozde
- Jonathan Mason
- Jonathan Mason
- Lucozade
- Moor Larkin
March 10, 2014 at 1:08 pm -
@Lucozade
Fashion…… Turn to the left………
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/fashion/Brazilian-bikini-wax-women-hair-removal.html?_r=0One thing I do remember about the early 1970’s was that young women I knew stopped using so many cosmetics as their parents. The industry reacted and so we got the punks I suppose…. massive mascara and hair gel sales.
- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 2:07 pm -
Moor Larkin,
Re: “Fashion…… Turn to the left………
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/fashion/Brazilian-bikini-wax-women-hair-removal.html?_r=0One thing I do remember about the early 1970′s was that young women I knew stopped using so many cosmetics as their parents. The industry reacted and so we got the punks I suppose…. massive mascara and hair gel sales”
It probably suits the cosmetics industry very well for things like hair removal to be promoted no matter how it looks cos it keeps them in business – they wouldn’t sell half the razors and shaving products if women didn’t use them to shave their entire bodies everyday….
- Engineer
March 10, 2014 at 7:17 pm -
I’m sure that can’t be right.
I shave my lower face every day, and I’m finding it increasingly difficult to buy ordinary common or garden shaving soap. If women shave their entire bodies every day (well, except the tops of their heads, obviously), they must be using shaving soap, or something, by the bucketful. Never see it in Boots.
- Lucozade
March 10, 2014 at 8:59 pm -
Engineer,
Re: “I’m sure that can’t be right.
I shave my lower face every day, and I’m finding it increasingly difficult to buy ordinary common or garden shaving soap. If women shave their entire bodies every day (well, except the tops of their heads, obviously), they must be using shaving soap, or something, by the bucketful. Never see it in Boots”
Maybe their sold out? Or perhaps they have some other product they want you to buy instead?
- Lucozade
- Engineer
- Lucozade
- Eric Hardcastle
March 10, 2014 at 1:51 pm -
Not sure if this program can be viewed in the UK but Media Watch has done a piece on Hinch telling fibs.
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/media-watch/FA1335H006S00 - Fat Steve
March 10, 2014 at 9:17 pm -
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/fashion/Brazilian-bikini-wax-women-hair-removal.html?_r=0
Restraint Anna? ……..tooo much information as my children say to me !!!!!
- theantifeminist
March 20, 2014 at 9:00 am -
“She saw nothing wrong in displaying her pubescent body around the house in front of a succession of young men who had no genetic bond with her; inevitably one was attracted to her. He sexually abused her – for many years. He has now gone to prison. As he should. That is Paedophilia, and rightly condemned and punished – by our judicial system”.
I realise that you have to deflect the criticisms of ‘supporting child abuse’ and perhaps you do genuinely believe that the age of consent of 16 is correct, but I wonder on what grounds you defend this belief?
Do you also condemn homosexuality? It would be consistant to do so, given that the present age of consent of 16 comes from the same Victorian puritan 1885 bill that criminalized homosexuality in the UK (punishable by death).
If you wish to draw a distinction between men knowingly breaking the law today and having sex with 15 year olds and the Yewtree persecution of men unknowingly? doing the same thing in a different era 50 years ago, fair enough, but I just wonder if you may consider, as Barbara Hewson correctly does in my view, that the only way to stop this hysteria is to have a rational and modern age of consent law that is not based upon the morals of a Victorian world in which pre-marital sex was still taboo (and highly dangerous to the girl).
- thedude
June 9, 2014 at 3:45 am -
It is all part of a wider obsession with demonizing men and demonizing and even criminalizing normal male sexuality. I never thought I’d see the day where I’d be scared to be a normal heterosexual bloke in Western society, but that day appears to be very much dawning, if not already here. Unbelievable.
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