My regular readers will be well aware that I am a Scouse. Born, bred and married in that peculiar sub-culture of Liverpool known as either ‘bitterly deprived’, by the legion of North London champagne socialist journalists who pontificate on these matters, or ‘innocents’ in the eyes of the prevailing Catholic Church methodology which is happy to overlook fornication with your younger sister or beating fifty shades of grey out of ‘er indoors’ on a Saturday night so long as you knit a regular Novena at St Mary’s on a Sunday morning. It is fair to say that I have a less rosy coloured view of my ex-fellow residents.

The prevailing culture of these areas is obsessive drinking, by men and to a lesser extent the women. Not for nothing is money referred to as drinking vouchers. The law was changed many years ago to allow women to claim child benefit directly, in order to ensure that children got something more nourishing than a packet of crisps whilst they waited for Dad outside the Pub. Saturdays are special. Every able-bodied man is in the pub. It is either: compensation for having been unfairly worked half to death by ‘the man’ all week, or compensation for having been unfairly deprived of a decent weeks work by ‘the man’. It is not ‘choice’, it is forced upon them by the miserable existence they endure. The women are out shopping with a vengeance, trying to obtain a weeks worth of food before ‘im indoors’ drinks it all. The kids wait patiently outside the pub for this battle of wills to come to an end. Nothing has changed in those sprawling post war estates over the last 50 years – except that a higher proportion of the men are now drinking as compensation for having been ‘unfairly’ deprived of a job. That is not to say that there are not areas of Liverpool that contain decent hard-working people, of course there are, thankfully my own family were one of them, but we were surrounded by the feckless, the irresponsible, the permanently injured and ‘done down’ of the Irish diaspora.

This sub-culture of Liverpool is a world of its own, a world the Guardian writers have no understanding of.  It is the only City of which I know where you have to pay for your Chinese meal before eating it – and – they still have bouncers on the doors of the Chinese restaurants. It not being ‘your’ responsibility to remember that you have already paid and have no need to go ‘on the lam’ half way through the meal. That is the job of the bouncers, they are not there to keep out intruders, but to gently point out to your befuddled brain that there is no need to make a run for it, you could even have another pint of light and bitter if you wish Sir. Liverpool – an entire City where everything is someone else’s responsibility, the Priest even, as the person of last resort. It is Marxism personified. Each according to his need. Do you know why all Dockers were once nicknamed ‘Diesel’ – from the phrase on all their lips ‘Dese’all’do’our’kid’ as they helped themselves to anything that was lying around!

After Beer, the next obsession, pausing only to land a right hander on the old woman, is Football. Football has a better attendance record than St Mary’s even. Every right thinking Scouser has his football kit, his scarf, and, used to be, his rattle too. I swear they give the babies rattles in their pram to prepare them for life later on. They get their first football kit at six weeks old. Off they go, half to the Kop, half to Anfield, but 23 years ago to the terraces of Sheffield Wednesday, the infamous ‘Hillsborough’.

Drunk, as The Sun once unwisely suggested? Good Lord No! 12 pints of beer don’t make a Scouser drunk – to suggest such a thing is to impune their very manhood! At some point that Beer has to make its way into the big wide world, and if ‘the man’ hasn’t cleared a path to a clearly marked toilet, well, that’s his fault. If it means that you urinate over an ambulance man, more fool him for getting in your way. If ‘the man’ hasn’t laid on enough burly souls to keep  order, well, that’s his fault too. To suggest that any responsibility lands on the head of these poor benighted souls is to invite opprobrium.

23 years ago, thousands of men, not drunk, but in their ‘rightful condition’ attempted to pour into the Hillsborough stadium. Men used to everything being some one else’s responsibility. Men with a clearly defined sense of grievance for anything and everything. Many used to receiving absolution for whatever.

Disaster followed. 95 of them lay dead in a short space of time. A true tragedy. The 96th person to die was a patient of mine. Tony Bland. Whose death only came after a long battle to prove that it was not murder if a Doctor starved or dehydrated a patient when a judge said it was OK. A case which resonates to this day. Judges have so ruled that it is not murder in hundreds of cases since – but no one remembers those ‘victims’ of the Liverpool fans that day. They are true innocents.

The rest of the country has spent 23 years funding a search for ‘Justice’. Justice for a Scouser means absolution. It wasn’t his fault. Today, we will be allowed to paw over thousands of documents, any one of which could contain a sentence taken out of context which will prove that it ‘wasn’t the Scousers fault’. Hopefully. For nothing less than proving that it was all ‘the man’s’ fault will bring peace to these benighted souls. It is what they are used to. What Liverpool expects this day.

“They should take ownership of their actions that day, there needs to be some kind of accountability for their actions.”

A quote from the Mother of one of the dead. She doesn’t mean the fans of course. No one is even suggesting that they take ownership of their actions. No, it must be ‘the man’.

It is a sick sort of Justice of course. The sort that starts with an inquiry into why the Police weren’t better equipped to handle these lost souls doing just what they are entitled to do. Perish the thought that anyone might have enquired into just what the Police were expected to deal with that day, and every other Saturday in the Kop.

But that wouldn’t be Justice, not Liverpool style.

No, what we need is a cringing apology from Cameron, taking personal responsibility for events that occurred before he was out of short trousers; an acknowledgement that Thatcher should never have been in Government, double dole money for all of Scotland Road, and please could you throw in the severed heads of half a dozen Chief Constables?

Then, grudgingly, Liverpool might be persuaded to forgive you. For now. There’ll be another whinge next week.

Even fellow Scousers have lost patience.

Believer_in_free_speech September 22, 2012 at 18:45

‘Anna’ – how’s this for free speech? You are a worthless, parasitic being,
devoid of any real humanity or ability to make an objective judgment, someone
who derives pleasure from the misery and distress of others, yet erroneously
believes in her own ability to make intelligent comment.

It is quite clear that you have no intention of responding to well-reasoned
and civilised counterpoints to your opinions (as in many of the responses to
you above). Yet, as you feel it is in the public interest to discuss at large
your extremely negative opinions about a particular group of people despite
making such strong assertions with no reference to any facts, on a similar
note why don’t we all (i.e. the general public and, in particular, the many
strongly-opinionated people who have contributed to this ‘debate’ on your
website) now proceed to a debate about why exactly you felt it to be in order
to receive such a great amount of public money from the taxpayers due to your
own personal distress (I mean morally acceptable, not just because it was in
your personal interest)? Why not, eh? It seems that making blanket judgements
about people (or in this case now, one person, that is, YOU) is the order of
the day on this website. Live by the sword, die by the sword, eh ‘Anna’?

If you dispute the version of events that has been out forward concerning
your true identity and life circumstances, why don’t you clear up this matter
and inform us all now of the true situation by exercising your free speech so
we can all make an informed and balanced decision about your real character
and motives, thus being empowered to truly assess the degree of bias in and
reliability of your opinions? Surely you would support this? Or are you a
complete hypocrite and coward, merely a glorified keyboard warrior, hidden by
the mask of virtual reality? Intrigued to hear your response, particularly if
you are such a strong proponent of the views and principles that you put
forward.

Anna
Raccoon September 22, 2012 at
19:56

Why don’t I reply to that piece of garbage? Because it is a piece of
garbage.

It is not worth my time to respond to such tripe.

Richard Williams
September 21, 2012 at 09:53

A welcome corrective to the prevailing wisdom. The police weren’t
murderers, more likely rabbits caught in the headlights. The stadium, the
ambulance service – all got it (officially) in the neck.

However, however, however…to blame so much of this on drink is misplaced.
Crowds at such events create a momentum – I’ve seen sober men (and women) push
hard in such situations. It was just thuggishness.

And as a member of the Irish diaspora myself (but not scouse), most of the
violent drunken England thugs tended to be from the lesser conurbations.
Places like Bedford, Mansfield and the like.

Alan September 19, 2012 at 17:21

Leo sounds like he is just another professional scouser. Just another one
with a chip on his shoulder who thinks the world owes him a living. And like a
lot of them, hes probably so in love with Liverpool that he left.

And Leo, liverpool fans didnt mobilise and get rid of hicks and gillette,
they put Liverpool FC up for sale some 18 months before being sold. I also
dont recall you and the rest of the liverpool fans mobilising against hicks
and gillette when you were playing champions league finals in Athens etc,
funny that. and talking of the Athens final in 2007, wasnt that another game
when Liverpool fans ran amok, forced turnstiles, jumped barriers and stole
tickets etc ? That must have been the fault of the Greek police and the
authorities just like Heysel must have been the fault of the Belgian police
and authorities :rolleyes:

As for the article blog itself, I agree. I lived in Liverpool and the north
of the city is pretty much as described. The south of the city is a world away
though.

NotAScouser September 18, 2012 at 19:46

Like several other commentators here, I have read this blog in the past and
found some of the views refreshing, if far to the right of my own. But I
really do feel that Anna missed the point about the report and what it found
about the police response to Hillsborough after it happened. The revelation
that over 40 lives may have been saved if ambulance staff had been allowed to
attend to them seems to have passed her by – is she blinkered by the same kind
of bigotry which saw police beating fans trying to rip up hoardings to use as
stretchers? I hope not. Perhaps blogging in advance of the report was a bad
idea – it feels rather as if whatever point she imagined she was making has
been left exposed by a tide of inconvenient facts. I don’t share Leo’s desire
to shut you down or shut you up – but I can empathise completely with his rage
and feelings of helplessness when confronted by people who seem to be missing
some important aspects of humanity in their comments.

jaded September 17, 2012 at 21:43

Is this blog still here? What happened to the fatwa?

Carol42 September 17, 2012 at 03:47

I don’t know for sure what exactly happened, I doubt anyone really does but
there is no doubt that the stadium was inherently dangerous and that, often
justifiably, football fans were very badly behaved at that time. However I
certainly don’t think it was anything deliberate on anyone’s part, a series of
miscalculations, misjudgement and a failure to realise that people were
trapped. About Liverpool, to some extent I agree, I lived there for two years
in the late 60s and I hated it, of all the places I have lived, and there have
been many, from Scotland to the Middle East, it was the only place I never,
ever wanted to go back to. I did enjoy going to see Liverpool play though,
strange as that seems, my ex- husband, Irish, was fanatical so it was a case
of you can’t beat them join them and I got quite keen on the team and remember
the Kop fondly but I still disliked the sentimentality and wanting to know all
your business that seemed to be characteristic. The horror of what happened
became for me diluted by the constant parading round the football field, it
went on far too long when the concentration should have been in finding out
the facts. This is not to excuse the cover up, it was totally wrong but why
was my first thought what compensation will they be looking for? I hope I am
wrong as nothing can make up for such a loss, when my husband tragically died
in an accident I felt every insurance I received was a price on his life and I
would have gladly exchanged it to have him back. My abiding memory of the Kop
was when Liverpool were playing Celtic and my then husband had me dress all in
red which elicited quite a few comments from Celtic supporters who were
horrified when I answered in a Glasgow accent, talk about adding insult to
injury! Still for all that I do hope the report brings peace to the families
and it is not, like the ‘Bloody Sunday’ enquiry going to drag on forever at
great cost with no real answers in the end.

Frankie September 16, 2012 at 22:51

Anna… This thread/article may be the original ‘gift that keeps on giving’
judging by the number of posts!

Uncle Monty September 16, 2012 at 20:31

Your original post can basically be distilled down to:

I hate Liverpool and most people who live there and I question their moral
fibre, especially the male football fans, therefore these people must be
partly to blame for the Hillsborough tragedy, despite any reports to the
contrary.

It’s the sort of logic that sent us to war in Iraq.

It has been very entertaining reading the responses though, I must say.

Paul September 16, 2012 at 14:19

hfdinfo.com

Anna (and others) – If you get chance, and don’t have time to wade through
the latest report, please have a read through the above link. You might change
your mind on a few things. It’s all there. The facts behind that dreadful
day.

Thanks.

beej September 16, 2012 at 13:39

Anna Raccoon, recipient of £250k of taxpayer money in compensation. Reliant
on ‘the man’, you say?

Doubt this comment will stay up long. Shameless fraud.

Anna
Raccoon September 16, 2012 at
13:42

The comment can stay up as long as you like petal. Your information is
untrue.

beej September 16, 2012 at 13:52

Maybe the figure is slightly off. The gist is true. Wallow in your
hypocrisy for a little while, then stick to oddball fringe causes, where
your vindictive invective might actually matter to anyone. Tra!

Anna
Raccoon September 16, 2012 at
13:58

“oddball fringe causes”

Yep, the oddball fringe causes I support are ten times more deserving
than the permanent victim culture.

beej
September 16, 2012 at 14:05

Seriously, though, as we’re repartee’ing. How does a bumper
compensation payout jangle with libertarian ideology? What made your
victim status deserving of financial compensation, but that of dead
fans undeserving of a little truth and contrition?

Anna Raccoon September 16, 2012 at 14:27

You are working on the assumption that there was a ‘bumper
compensation payout’. I have seen many articles on the Internet that
claim this – I have yet to see any cheque made out to me!
Nor do
I see any statement by me that ‘dead fans are undeserving of any
truth or contrition’.
You are making a lot of assumptions, as do
many others.

Steven
Gaskell September 16, 2012 at
20:30

“You are making a lot of assumptions, as do many others.”

As did your original post…

Darren September 16, 2012 at 12:12

I imagine the follow up to this, to be more respectful. I may be wrong.

Jimmy September 16, 2012 at 06:48

I have previously posted as ‘James’ but will now become Jimmy. There are
too many James’. It’s confusing but I didn’t rush to correct, because ‘public
school’ James has said what I think. Sorry.
Anna, I believe that this post
was a mistake. It’s all very well claiming to be a true born Scouser which
presumably gives you license you slag the lot of them off. But really, be
honest. Where were you educated? Was it anywhere near Liverpool? I don’t think
so. You may know this city, you probably lived there, but you ate not a
product of this place that you condemn so coldly.
You may have the slavish
adulation of a few followers, for whom you can do no wrong. Twerps who pick up
your opponents grammatical errors, while ignoring the glaring mistakes of your
supporters. It’s not a good look.
I like so much of what you write but this
is not your finest moment.

cascadian September 16, 2012 at 03:39

I was walking to the pub last night, when I heard an almighty WHINE,
thought it must be the take shelter siren. So I ran home and dived into the
basement, but I haven’t heard the all-clear siren yet. Is it safe to come
out?

Louise September
16, 2012 at 20:16

You might want to see a doctor about that.

Maybe Dr. Racoon can offer you an online consultation.

m.barnes September 15, 2012 at 22:33

Wow!
Just…… WOW. My what a twisted, tangled weed-ball of disparate
arguments!
Er… do I WANT to throw in my h’pennyworth? Here goes…

I don’t agree with Anna’s argument here – but I will defend her right to
make it. There are lots of, presumably first-time, visitors who condemn her as
a dreadful person filled with malice. I suspect they have not read any of the
other articles. A sample of more than one post is surely required before
damning a stranger so absolutely.
I don’t know that much about Liverpool as
a city – went there once a few years ago and it looked in a bad way although
they had started to posh up the dock areas. Nice people and I like the accent.
Not therefor qualified on the validity or otherwise of the ‘victim’
accusation.
From my memory of football at the time of Hillborough, it was
an accident waiting to happen somewhere; a terrible co-incident of various
factors. If I remember correctly there were a few near misses just before it
happened. I also remember football fans being no angels, the FA and football
clubs not spending money on grounds, Police and local councils locked into a
mindset of keeping football fans under control from years of dealing with
violent hooligans and those desperate pictures from Hillsborough.
The one
thing that has puzzled me about some comments from Liverpudlians is that they
believe everyone else bought Kelvins line. The Taylor report was clear on all
that. What this inquiry seems to have uncovered is the attempt at a cover-up.
Rubbish cover-up given Taylor didn’t fall for it.
I have to say to Leo –
who is undoubtedly hovering, perhaps imagining himself as a noble avenging
angel clothed in the light of self-righteousness holding aloft a flaming sword
of truth – that I really don’t react well to aggression and bullying. I would
be amazed, given all that Liverpool as a city has lived through, if the
existence of one blog, one opinion would cause it any harm. Your language is a
wee bitty over-wrought. Don’t threaten matey. If your arguments have worth
they will stand on their own. Shouting and bawling the odds about how you’re
going to do this and that won’t win anything. Perhaps you should take as your
example the people who led the Hillborough campaign all those years to it’s
current success?
I like this blog. I don’t always agree with it, I
certainly don’t always agree with some of the contributors, the tone is
sometimes are bit snarky and I like that. It is vigorous, bolshie, funny,
intelligent, exasperating, kick the wall annoying, daft, weird and the
limericks are bloody good. I won’t be having it shut down by you Leo.

I don’t even like football.

DaftMcBlog
September 16, 2012 at 20:27

You’re obviously a regular Mr (or Ms) Barnes.
Very best, most sensible
and level headed comments on this thread so far.
Leo really does make a
Scouser of himself doesn’t he?

Louise September
15, 2012 at 21:17

I see The Daily Mail has leapt onto the bandwagon. See Stephen Glover’s
article.

Tatty September 15, 2012 at 19:31

Anna evidently knows the difference(s) between Liverpudlians and
Scousers.

Leo…and others…evidently do not.

JuliaM September
15, 2012 at 20:56

And it’s time for the best commentary on that subject, from the master
himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4

Ex-LiverpoolDocker September 15, 2012 at 21:59

Try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwYJOn6zgjg&feature=related

AgainsTTheWall
September 15, 2012 at 10:17

Leo, you are bonkers – quite incapable of joined up, dispassionate thinking
(that could be the definition of a Scouser come to think of it) but you have
nt half made this thread fun!

Leo September 15, 2012 at 09:03

Fraud, am I? No. Sorry, but there seems to be only one Phoney in
here…
And, I’m afraid that happens to be your Guru.

Rightio, I’ll leave you to stir your little cauldron of hatred. No doubt,
you’ll have great fun. But unlike nurse Susan Nundy, I haven’t ran away. It
took 23 years to get to the truth. This cesspit…?

Ladysmith September 15, 2012 at 10:18

Busted! What a thoroughly unpleasant individual this Anna Raccoon must
be. It doesn’t really matter if she truly believes the insidious rantings
she pens here or if they are just for effect, either way it is clear that
there is a hideous person behind the words.

Elena
‘andcart September 15, 2012 at
11:37

And you, of course, have the opportunity to say this on this Blog,
Ladysmith. Keep up the good work. People like you always destroy your own
arguments.
Never would I have expected to see such examples of
confirmation of exactly what Anna Raccoon has said. Amazing. Best Blog
ever. This will be a hard act to follow. But rest assured, Anna Raccoon
will do it.

Ex-LiverpoolDocker September 15, 2012 at 14:50

So Elena, you presumably agree with Anna’s comment ‘After Beer, the
next obsession, pausing only to land a right hander on the old
woman’.
You think this is amazing and the subsequent arguments ‘the
best blog ever’?

If Anna wanted lots of debate then her statements false and accurate
have certainly worked. So in one sense she has acted just like Kelvin
Mackenzie hasn’t she, a paragon of virtue no doubt you’ll agree.

It’s good to have the discussions but not to perpetuate the lies and
sadly that is exactly what she’s done ably abetted by a number of
ignorant individuals.

Elena
‘andcart September 15, 2012 at
16:11

I agree with the right of Anna Raccoon to have an opinion, just as
I agree with my right or your right to have a different opinion, all
of which have been voiced without censure on this Blog. On this
occasion I happen to agree with her general approach to this
subject.
I have no idea if your average Liverpudlian has a penchant
for beating up his wife after a couple too many, but I wouldn’t be
surprised, just as I wouldn’t be surprised if your average Londoner
does the same thing. There is a lot of it about, even in these
enlightened times.
And, of course, without her original Blog Post,
there would be no discussion. This what Free Speach is all about.

What do you want? Some prissy arsed Blog about The Police always
being in the wrong? Anna Raccoon does not believe this, and nor do
I.
At no point has anyone said that The Victims were to blame. They
almost certainly weren’t. It was just a God Almighty cock up. And
several Institutions are in some way responsible, if you can even say
that with some conviction, which I can’t.
Personally, I am sick to
my stomach that The Establishment has seen fit to shoulder the blame.
Look to The Soccer Hooligans who caused this in the first place. That
is where the actual blame lies. People who were so incapable of
behaving like civilised human beings that cages had to be built to
house them. Did or do they beat their wives? Probably.

Ladysmith
September 15, 2012 at 18:09

Elena

“And you, of course, have the opportunity to say this on this Blog,
Ladysmith. Keep up the good work. ”

Yes I think the only good thing about this blog is the author’s
willingness to retain all comments; that is refreshing to see at
least.

“People like you always destroy your own arguments.”

People like me? What arguments are you referring to exactly?

“Never would I have expected to see such examples of confirmation of
exactly what Anna Raccoon has said. Amazing. Best Blog ever. ”

Are you referring to me? In what way?

“This will be a hard act to follow. But rest assured, Anna Raccoon
will do it.”

Unfortunately you might be right.

Ex-LiverpoolDocker September 15, 2012 at 19:12

Oh dear me Elena,

Of course we’re all entitled to our opinions but when they run
counter to the findings of numerous enquiries/panels etc. they are not
based on fact are they? They are simply misguided opinions which
evidence the prejudices of some of the contributors to the blog
including Anna herself. And yes we know what Free Speech is all about,
including numerous failed attempts by various contributors to perhaps
change peoples’ opinions of the stereotypical view of Liverpool that so
many people ‘buy’ into. Anna has written the following 3 statements, do
you agree with all of them or one or 2 or perhaps none?

‘thousands of men, not drunk, but in their ‘rightful condition’
attempted to pour into the Hillsborough stadium’, ‘If there had been no
police there trying to ensure that hundreds of fans outside the ground’,
‘and it only takes half a dozen hefty lads pushing forward to create a
surge.’

These are just a simple example of how she’s distorted the truth
within the space of a single blog. Remind me, whoever said that the
Police were always wrong apart from you stating that that’s perhaps what
I want. They’re never always wrong but equally never always right are
they? And yet again someone, you in this case, is sick to the stomach
for the Establishment accepting blame. The facts disprove your gut
feelings, why won’t you accept this rather than denying at every turn
the findings of the various proceedings?

My opinion is that you, like Anna, have failed to read the report and
have adopted an opinion in spite of the evidence; it is of course your
right to have your opinions and express them. It is my right to show you
the error of your ways, and to further explain that all football fans
are not hooligans and that not all men in Liverpool beat their wives.

Your ‘Did or do they beat their wives? Probably.’ is further evidence
of your closed mind, perhaps you should have used ‘possibly’ rather than
jumping on the Anna bandwagon.

Elena ‘andcart September 15, 2012 at 16:11
I agree with the right
of Anna Raccoon to have an opinion, just as I agree with my right or
your right to have a different opinion, all of which have been voiced
without censure on this Blog. On this occasion I happen to agree with
her general approach to this subject.
I have no idea if your average
Liverpudlian has a penchant for beating up his wife after a couple too
many, but I wouldn’t be surprised, just as I wouldn’t be surprised if
your average Londoner does the same thing. There is a lot of it about,
even in these enlightened times.
And, of course, without her original
Blog Post, there would be no discussion. This what Free Speach is all
about.

What do you want? Some prissy arsed Blog about The Police always
being in the wrong? Anna Raccoon does not believe this, and nor do
I.
At no point has anyone said that The Victims were to blame. They
almost certainly weren’t. It was just a God Almighty cock up. And
several Institutions are in some way responsible, if you can even say
that with some conviction, which I can’t.
Personally, I am sick to my
stomach that The Establishment has seen fit to shoulder the blame. Look
to The Soccer Hooligans who caused this in the first place. That is
where the actual blame lies. People who were so incapable of behaving
like civilised human beings that cages had to be built to house them.
Did or do they beat their wives? Probably.

Elena
‘andcart September 15, 2012 at
19:37

Ho, Ho. I’ve met your type before. I ain’t daft, you know. I can
tell when someone is twisting my words. My Dad wanted me to marry an
East End Docker, but I wasn’t having that. Oh No. I am much more your
Gin and Tonic Type. If only I could afford the Tonic, let alone the
Gin.

Ex-LiverpoolDocker September 15, 2012 at 21:30

I’m pleased you’ve seen the error of your ways by not denying any of
the facts Elena; perhaps your dad would have done better by investing in
a horse for you.

jaded September 15, 2012 at 11:56

I thought this blog was going to be destroyed? Scousers of the world
unite against free-speech.Man the barricades!

JuliaM September 15, 2012 at 15:47

Someone nicked the barricades, clearly!

Leo September 15, 2012 at 16:31

Dear me, for so called educated people, you aren’t half
thick.
Like I said, I haven’t ran away. 23 years it took to get the
Truth. This cesspit…?

Do you get me know? Don’t answer. I’ll spell it out for your superior
mind… I am still here. I am not a fraud. I’ve said nothing but the truth
in here. I stand by every word. I’m going to keep the promise I made. I
am not a liar. Enjoy stirring your cauldron while you can.
Bye… for
now.

Elena
‘andcart September 15, 2012 at
17:25

Good God. Is he ever going to go away? Probably not. He is having
far too much fun, which this Blog affords him. But he seems to have
missed that point. That’s okay. I don’t think anyone minds too much if
he wants to go on proving what an ignorant pillock he is.

Anna
Raccoon September 15, 2012 at
17:57

Poor LEO-berace, or ‘Fat Scouser’ as he refers to himself in other
holes.

So far, he’s told people that I’m a ‘nurse’, and hosted by
WordPress.com, both hilariously incorrect. He’s got half the kop
licking the end of their blunt pencils, trying to remember how
‘writing’ worked, and writing to wordpress.com to ‘get this blog taken
down’ – Yet he’s said ‘nothing but the truth’. Liverpudlian truth!

Frankie
September 15, 2012 at 21:00

I make this 24 hours, or close enought, for Government work and
yet.. we’re still here! Wherever “here” is!!

Longrider September 15, 2012 at 17:42

That old cack. Jeebus!

Steven Gaskell
September 15, 2012 at 05:47

This is obviously a piece intended to inspire debate, vociferously one
sided and controversial. Hillsborough wasn’t what you intended to write about,
it just seems a platform from which you could cast your views of your former
hometown. Unfortunately and either ignorantly or deliberately you used
admitted fabricated sensationalism straight from the lines of an abhorred
publication. You could have written your article without this, without baiting
the very people upon which you are commenting. Shit mate, goose stepping
through a synagogue in Israel is about the level of grenade you lobbed at
Scousers from your safe haven in southern France. As such, for whatever
reason, perceived rightly or wrongly there are a lot of people who have shown
remarkable restraint in their posts. I guess they you’d applaud them as fellow
ladder climbers. Others didn’t, but hey, you can use those to reinforce the
point you’re making.

What you lost sight of in your piece was that 96 real people, with real
families and real friends lost their real lives. It was an absolute tragedy
affecting countless hundreds of people personally, countless thousands
indirectly and countless millions as a turning point in British and world
football. Naturally with every tragedy comes accountability. The immediate
ignorant view is to lay the blame at the hands of the ‘drunken, uncontrollable
ticket-less’ fans. I’ve lost count at the number of times I’ve read this view,
seen this view, or heard this view. One similarity across all of them is the
spite the comment is delivered with. One only has to read your post in its
entirety to feel the bitterness. Again Hillsborough isn’t your target, it’s
just your vehicle. But I’ll play the game.

Now apparently you’re a lawyer. I know not much of the law beyond that
sometimes myself and it have had our disagreements. But I understand that
‘experts in the field’ are quite often used to offer a perspective that your
journeyman might not be looking from. They’re the ones who say ‘But, have you
considered that this, and that and the other dismissed by you as immaterial
are actually quite relevant here?’ In this case, your experts will tell you
that the crowd situation at Hillsborough that day was neither unusual nor
unexpected. Joe Public football fan does have a drink, he still does. This was
not something that might have caught those around the game off guard that day.
Now, unlike most expert opinions, when a football person offers a football
perspective on a footballing matter, they are quite often blatantly
disregarded. This does not mean they are wrong, I’d personally go so far as to
say it smacks of insidious snobbery. It’s no consequence to me that with the
tone of your piece and your attitude to your former neighbors that you’re
dismissing the opinion of football experts this way. But again, that does not
mean they are wrong.

Now, if we do as lawyers do and take the opinions of experts as exactly
that, with the weight they deservedly carry, a completely different picture of
that emerges. We have a new basis to operate from. If we are dealing with a
crowd that is within the accepted norms of behavior then surely we will have
plans to deal with them. I’m not going to go into massive detail, the Taylor
Report does that. The long and short is, police planning around that event,
and countless prior was simply not acceptable, and it took a tragedy to bring
that to light. It’s a tragedy for which people were accountable, and it took
23 years to bring that to light. As a lawyer, you must see the impact of 41
false death certificates, and 116 altered statements.

Your opinion of your hometown alongside something of this magnitude, is
frankly immaterial. It’s definitely another spark for another debate on
another day. But today more than others your vehicle is much bigger than your
topic. Seriously, for one moment forget your attitudes and impressions of
somewhere you clearly do not have a soft spot for. Forget your opinions of The
Evil Drunk Football Hooligan. Forget the bitterness. But never lose sight of
the fact that on and in the months following April 15th 1989 there were 96
real people killed, with real families and real friends, all of whom were real
victims of a real cover-up of a real failing. Never forget that.

Boris September 15, 2012 at 00:29

Scousers still wallowing in their victim status, I see.

James September 15, 2012 at 10:17

Ignorant bigots still unable to profer a coherent argument and instead
fall back on baseless insults, I see.

James September 15, 2012 at 00:10

Anna, and many posters, have attempted to portray Liverpool fans as
belonging to some kind of feral subculture who don’t deserve the basic tenets
of justice. Having been educated at a leading public school and having only
missed out on attending Hillsbourough on the 15th of April 1989 by the
(mis)fortune of not being able to secure a ticket, can I please offer an
alternative view to the lazy stereotype perpetuated in this blog?

No, I’m not a scouser born and bred. But, having immersed myself in the
tragedy and it’s aftermath I find myself considerably able to comment upon
your disgraceful commentry. How dare you presume to be more aware of the
immediate findings than contemporary witnesses? How dare you presume to be
more in tune with events on the day than the very fans who saved their fellow
fans’ lives whilst the emergency services stood idly by? How dare you besmirch
the reputation of the supporters who did more to save lives of injured and
dying than the very people who are paid by the state to protect them? How dare
you reject the findings of successive inquiries that stated that Liverpool
fans were not to blame, they weren’t late to arrive at the ground and nor were
they drunk? How arrogant are you to presume that BOTH judicial enquiries were
wrong in this respect but you were right?

Helen September 14, 2012 at 23:05

Anna

I am totally bemused by your blog. I have always enjoyed your writings
before, particularly your support of Mark and Steven Neary of whom I am a
staunch supporter myself. BUT I have to ask you when exactly did you last
visit Liverpool because I really do not recognise the culture you are talking
about. Perhaps in the early 70′s your writing may have struck a chord with
many working class communities (not just Liverpool) but not now. I really
don’t understand.. are you suggesting that the families of the 96 should have
just accepted the lies about the circumstances in which their loved ones died…
lies which you yourself appear to believe when you talk about ticketless fans
and fans urinating on ambulancemen (of which there has been no evidence
whatsoever). It has been proved that this stadium was an accident waiting to
happen, it has been proved that there was no way on earth that all of the fans
with tickets could have possibly entered the ground through the decrepid
turnstiles until the end of the first half, it has been proved that sheffield
wednesday football club put money above safety, it has been proved that the
police failed that day in their crowd control duties by not closing off the
tunnel and directing fans to the stands either side, it has been proved that
police then attempted to deflect the blame onto ‘drunken fans’ and fed a pack
of lies to Whites news agency, it has been proved that no-one took control of
the situation and the emergency services were kept out of the loop, it has
been proved that 41 of the people who died could potentially have lived, but
hey lets not blame ‘the man’ lets just blame the very small minority of
ticketless fans who ‘pushed’ their way in shall we, and lets slag of an entire
community of people who have fought for the real truth to be told for the past
23 years while we’re at it. I think your comments are highly insulting and
bang out of order. You may originate from Liverpool, but you really don’t know
anything about the people. Or maybe you really do think that its acceptable to
wave your 16 year old son off to a football match, concert or sporting event
and have him not come home because the venue was unsafe and the people
responsible for crowd control failed to take control. Maybe you also think
that its then ok to take blood samples from your dead son to try and insinuate
that he was somehow to blame for his own plight. But hey lets not blame ‘the
man’ whatever we do, it was obviously just all those impatient people pushing
at the back that caused the deaths of 96 people who went to watch a football
match wasn’t it?

Mudplugger September 14, 2012 at 21:10

Interesting that when someone has the temerity, in a two-bit film-clip, to
suggest that Islam is not entirely perfect, the co-ordinated reaction is for
the hoardes of unread, uneducated, unaware and blinkered followers to resort
to outbreaks of serious violence, including arson and multiple murder.

When someone has the temerity, on a small-scale but erudite blog, to
suggest that Liverpool is not entirely perfect……..

A revealing parallel perhaps ?

Swoop September 14, 2012 at 21:00

Wow, I am stunned.

I really didn’t expect to find in this day and age such openly bigoted
views from British people. I thought we’d moved on as a society, sadly not it
seems.

There are some in here that would put the Holocaust deniers to shame.

DonaKebabs4Supper September 15, 2012 at 00:33

Eh?????????????????????

Elena ‘andcart
September 14, 2012 at 20:05

You know, it’s pretty pointless trying to talk to these people. They
haven’t read the Blog Post properly, and they don’t want to know what Anna
actually said. They don’t understand that most of us don’t hate anyone just
because we don’t agree with them. They need to grow up and to learn to
evaluate The English Language. There is no Hate Speech in that Blog Post. So
there are no grounds for getting it taken down. And all of them have had their
share of the platform anyway.

myqui September 14, 2012 at 17:42

Leo, whilst I feel myself unable to condone your desire to shut down a
website because it has upset you I think you might find it to be of worth to
note that had Anna closed the thread at your first request I would not have
been able to read every one of your following posts,and others making the same
point after that and, as a consequence, would have not have anywhere near the
understanding of how this terrible thing has affected the people of Liverpool.
I would admit to ignorance of many of the facts posted here by yourself and
others until now and yet it this very thread that you wish to have shut down
that has opened my eyes more surely than anything I have yet read. I hope you
can see that freedom of speech, even though it may hurt terribly is still the
best option we all have if truth is to not only prevail but to be understood
by those that lack knowledge and thus a full understanding.

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 18:04

Even more sense myqui.
The greater truth. The real freedom of
speech.
Read and understand even those things you dislike or don’t agree
with, even if you find it hurtful.
Argue, debate, challenge all you
like.
The only way to a better understanding.
Nice one Keep it
up.
Bogbrush

don’tlikescousers
September 14, 2012 at 17:00

I’m a Manchester United fan. I really hate scousers. They hate us, we hate
them in the same way that cats and dogs don’t get on, it’s natural, it’s life.
However one thing is sure, the deaths at Hillsborough were the result of inept
policing and the disgraceful standard of the stadium. The same fixture with
the same teams in the same ground 12 months previously resulted in no deaths.
The policeman in charge on that day was extremely experienced with crowd
control in general, and at Hillsborough especially. Cordons were set up to
prevent ticketless fans approaching the ground and prevent build up of crowds
directly outside the turnstiles. This did not happen in 89. Yes the Liverpool
fans as a whole outside were boisterous and you can’t tell me that there
weren’t fans there who weren’t off their heads or ticketless or intent on
causing shit for others generally, show me a football match in the 70s and 80s
where that wasn’t the case!, but that wasn’t why the deaths happened. The
deaths happened because an incompetent policeman, who had already let the
crowds build up to life threatening levels outside the gate remember, decided
to open a gate without taking the precaution of preventing further entry to
the central pens. That tunnel was the only entry point visible to the fans
when they got inside the stadium perimeter and the only obvious place for them
to go. People talk of an individual’s responsibility but a crowd is not a
collection of individuals, it moves as one. Which is why we have police
trained in crowd control. And why the the police forces of the UK charge for
their services as they are the crowd control experts.

In summary there are plenty of sticks to beat Liverpool fans with; racist,
faeces flinging, stanley knife wielding, Munich chanting, Italian murdering
scum is how I would describe them, but Hillsborough was solely the fault of
SYP. They failed in their duties that day and got away scot free. Not only
that they were rewarded for their failings by receiving their pensions, early
retirement etc. An utter disgrace.

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 17:58

Beautifully put. We can all agree to THIS tone of voice. Excellently put
“don’tlike”

Libdem September 15, 2012 at 09:23

You missed out stupid from your list lol….toodlepip

Libdem September 15, 2012 at 09:24

You missed out stupid from your list lol….toodle pip

Leo September 14, 2012 at 17:59

I don’t hate you, Brother. I know loads of sound Mancs. It’s your
horrible football team I hate, and there’s a Scouser who plays for that
shower who I’d say is as low as any racist, faeces flinging, machette
weilding, gun totting Mancunian I’ve ever had the pleasure to met. But I’m
off to drink about 8 pints of yellow stereotype, and then flop on me DHS
couch in front of me unpaid for flat screen, while falling asleep with kebab
all down me front. So, sadly I can’t discuss your own stereotypical views
that really do let you down. Shame that. But thanks for pointing out a few
truths while you was at it.

Elena
‘andcart September 14, 2012 at
18:23

Ah Ha. I have finally sussed you. You are a Fraud, and almost certainly
not a Liverpudlian. But well done for keeping it up for so long. And No, I
am not going to tell you what gave you away.

mark September 14, 2012 at 16:59

You do have to smile at the blog as it is caters to every tired scouse
stereotype, trying in vain to paint a picture of what a terrible place
Liverpool is. ‘It is the only City of which I know where you have to pay for
your Chinese meal before eating it – and – they still have bouncers on the
doors of the Chinese restaurants’ really made me smile
The blog is ridiculous and is actually comical with the blatant untruths and
silly stereotypes. I persume the authors intent was trying to be controversial
but just comes across as farcical.

The irony is that the author in her attack at all things Liverpool paints a
distressing picture of what an awful person she is herself and her obvious
hate filled world. Its a disaster for her that the blog and the subsequent
replies shows the scousers as intelligent and decent people whereas herself
and her chums as the misinformed uneducated villains. Doh!

Give me a proper scouser any day than some bitter old crank.

Leo September 14, 2012 at 16:54

Oh dear. Okay, here we go, one last time… I have not threatened anybody. I
am not blackmailing anybody. I am honestly telling Anna, that if this isn’t
taken down, I will make it my business to see that it is removed. I don’t
think I can be more honest or upfront than that.

In fact, even though I knew it was a complete waste of time, I tried to
explain some of the hurt this wicked stereotyping causes. In the process, I
told personal stories that I usually keep to myself – of which I have far
worse. But I was trying to explain what grief I have been put through, and
some of the treatment I have recieved, simply because of where I was born and
how I speak. And yes, I used a bit of sarcasm here and there, but, overall, I
think I have been very reasonable. What has that brought me… personal insults,
mocking disdain, and people going as far to mock the deaths of some of my
loved ones. I will not stand for that.

23 years of campaigning it’s taken to get to this point. Victim minded
whingers from Self Pity City we were called, told to “Just move on and get
over it,” as if we had just lost an old pair of socks. If we were from Chester
and fighting for a new church roof or to save the polar bear, we would have
been applauded for our Bull Dog Spirit. Because I am what I am, I have been
ridiculed on here to the point where my grammar and spelling was deemed more
important than the loss of 96 lives, and the hurt that has been caused to
inumerable people for the past 23 years. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t
get any lower than that.

I have been called a TRUE SCOUSER, RED IN TOOTH AND CLAW, as if that was
some sort of insult. I actually take it as a great compliment, but I must
correct it… Whether I’m a true Scouser is for other people from Liverpool to
judge, but I’m red from head to toe, inside out and back to front. But this
isn’t about me. It’s about the population of a whole city being treated in
this manner for over 40 years now, let alone 23.

Absolution has been hurled at me. I have never asked for any such thing.
All we have ever wanted is The Truth and a little justice. Nobody has ever
denied that drunken ticketless fans were at that match. Like I said earlier,
that still goes on to this day of all seater stadiums, where football is a
huge business of global entertainment, and prawn sandwhich eating football
tourists come to experience the atmosphere of the great unwashed. It’s a shame
they have all but stolen our game from us. But the point is, as was
established by the Taylor Report way back in 1990… drunken ticketless fans
were not a significant factor. The root cause of the tragedy was the actions
of The South Yorkshire Police. They were covering that up within minutes, and
that has caused inumerable people some real and terrible grief for over 2
decades.

I’m sorry you haven’t unleashed the great Tsunami of hatred and rage, that
some of your readers seemed to be so avidly waiting for. But you have raised
my heckles. So, I will try explaining something to you again… 2 American
Shysters “bought” Liverpool Football Club in 2007, on the drip, in a leveraged
buy out deal. They were the type of men who have wrecked the world’s economy.
We welcomed them with open arms. Once we realised what they were up to, we
fought them – yes, red tooth and claw. And it took a few years, but we ousted
them. They intended to asset strip the club and high tail it back to America
with our money. They eventuall left, forced out with nothing except the
millions they had managed to steal from us in the interim. The English media
called us every name imaginable. If they’d given us due credit for what we
managed to do, other football clubs – including the media darlings amongst
them – may not be in the precarious positions they find themselves today. And
I know you think all football supporters are mindless, drunken thugs, but
then, as I said earlier, stereotyping shows much more about the person
pointing the finger than the people they are trying to condemn.

Anyway, I have wasted enough of my time on this now. I really don’t care if
it’s changed anybody’s opinions. I don’t think this sort of prejudice can be
changed, but it can be stopped. To rid the club of the American “Businessmen”
we mobilised that many people, we crashed computer systems at some of the
world’s biggest, (or corrupt according to your view point), establishments and
businesses. The bankers that backed them men dropped them quicker than a hot,
well, you get my drift.

So, I politely ask you once again, remove this offensive article and that
will be the end of it, or keep it up and I will personaly round up as many
Liverpool fans and Scousers as I can, and I will ask them to politely complain
to your hosts and demand that this article, and your entire website, be
removed from their service. Your hosts may not understand why it so offensive
to so many people, but I’m sure they won’t want to deal with the hassle it
will cause them. Call me as petty as you like. I’ve been called far worse. I’m
sure you and your fans can think of some proper whoppers. But then, I may even
enlist the help of as many Catholics as I can, because this little diatribe
goes far beyond the bounds of football and hatred of one city’s
population.

And yes. I did write this myself, with as few grammatical and spelling
mistakes as I could manage but I won’t be bothering again. And please Anna,
try and ditch the hate. I’m not being smartly sarcastic. I mean it. I used to
hate people like yourself and those that agree with you. I don’t any more. It
eats away at people, and there’s far better things to be done with all that
energy. I sincerely mean that. I wish you no ill, but I will not tolerate
this.

Longrider September 14, 2012 at 18:39

Oh dear. Okay, here we go, one last time… I have not threatened
anybody. I am not blackmailing anybody. I am honestly telling Anna, that
if this isn’t taken down, I will make it my business to see that it is
removed. I don’t think I can be more honest or upfront than
that.

Yup, that’s a threat and it is blackmail.

So you are offended? Well, so fucking what? Get over yourself. You have
no right not to be offended. That is the very principle of freedom of speech
and expression – people get to say things you don’t like. Well, tough titty.
If you don’t like the opinions expressed here, no one is forcing you to read
them. You could always do what you have been promising to do and have
consistently failed to follow though and that is piss off. Clearly you enjoy
being offended.

John Stevens
September 14, 2012 at 22:24

It’s a threat, but it’s not blackmail, at least not in the criminal
sense.

As much as I disagree on principle, the leader almost certainly falls
foul of the precedent in DPP- v – Collins. Perhaps appeals to principle
rather than the law may be more in order.

Longrider September 15, 2012 at 17:38

I made no mention of the law. “Blackmail” is an English verb. It
means, among other things, to unfairly use pressure to influence someone
(Collins English dictionary). My usage is therefore correct. It is
blackmail – just because it is not a criminal offence does not mean that
it isn’t blackmail.

Robert the
Biker September 14, 2012 at 19:31

You come back more times than a bad curry.

What was it that king feller said?
“Will no one rid me of this
turbulent Nettkopp” Something like that.

Go ahead Leo, get all the crybabies you want; “Oh, someone said something
we don’t like, waah waaaahhh” Anna will simply ask for the support of those
fans and bloggers who agree with freedom of speech. Note that, not
necessarily only those of us who agree, but all who stand by the principle.
You will have a tidal wave like you have never seen.

Longrider September 14, 2012 at 21:24

Clearly Leo is unaware of the Streisand effect

dearieme September 14, 2012 at 15:49

“4. All authorities sought to lay the blame on the fans, on the basis that
it was obviously their own fault.” Their own fault? I admit that I’ve never
followed Hillsborough in any detail, but I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone
blame the dead and injured for their plight. Does anyone have a few
examples?

JFT96 September 14, 2012 at 15:32

Susanne Cameron-Blackie what a sad sad excuse for a human being.

ToastandMarmite
September 14, 2012 at 13:35

Even given the emotive nature of the subject, I find it incredibly
disturbing that anyone who questions the sainted scousers mythology is
immediately vilified and subjected to threats. When you consider that the
mantra of those campaigning -rightly in my view – that there be a proper
inquiry, that the truth should emerge and that they would not be silenced, I
find it bitterly ironic that many would now seek to silence others who would
dare to question the latest ‘right’ result.

adrian September 14, 2012 at 13:54

But people are actually questioning the findings of the Taylor report – a
free and open Judicial inquiry. the latest evidence is more around the cover
up as well as backing that initial view. Which incidentally was also support
by the High Court and the Stuart-Smith review in 1998. People cannot keep
saying that drunk ticketless fans caused the incident when 3 legal bodies
and an independent panel all say they didnt.

And there is one person who here who has made threats – which I think
plays well in comparison to the 30 or so individuals who have kept repeating
a lie that has been proven through the legal process to be such.

Leo September 14, 2012 at 16:57

Adrian, I haven’t threatened anybody, lest of all Anna. I have very
straight forwardly informed her of what I will do if this isn’t taken
down. I mean that, and that’s my final word on the matter. The choice is
now Anna’s.

Woman
on a Raft September 14, 2012 at
17:45

@Adrian. You’ve been given all the space you want to make your point.
People have apparently not commented. Maybe they are perfectly content
with it and think they have nothing to add. That’s up to them. You can’t
infer you are being ignored from that. If anything, you should infer
assent.

Anna’s contention was that Liverpool contained a fair number of
violent thuggish men whose primary aim was to make sure that no blame
attached to themselves for the poisonous victim culture which condoned
trying to get in to grounds with out a ticket – which is a version of
theft – and had already led to the need for pens to prevent pitch
invasions.

Since Leo has turned up threatening her and trying to tell everyone
else what they can read and think, I’d say he illustrates her point
perfectly.

Longrider September 14, 2012 at 18:35

I have very straight forwardly informed her of what I will do if
this isn’t taken down. I mean that, and that’s my final word on the
matter.

The very definition of a threat.

DonaKebabs4Supper September 14, 2012 at 19:55

” informed her of what I will do if this isn’t taken down.
”
Finally Leo or Longrider you have proved yourself to be the
archetypal, boneheaded pillock what is a genuine, 24 carat, 100%
Scouse moron.
No debate. No reason. No argument. I’m right.
Everyone else is entitled to exactly no opinion.
So perpetuating
the stereotype. Out of the closet at last!!
Long live the
Kop.
Up the reds.
I hope the rest of the sane population of that
lovely city of Liverpool are as charmed by your self-pity as I
am.
Walk on through the storm.
‘cos you’ll never walk
alone.
Sentiment before sense any day!
Hoorah and justice for
the people.
Amen and God be with you. Goodbye.

Longrider September 14, 2012 at 21:22

Finally Leo or Longrider you have proved yourself to be the
archetypal, boneheaded pillock what is a genuine, 24 carat, 100%
Scouse moron.

DonaKebabs4Supper, I suggest you go to Specsavers. I am nothing
whatsoever to do with Leo and that should have been blindingly
obvious.

EF September 14, 2012 at 12:32

The facts are simple:
1. The stadium had been judged unsafe for years,
yet the local council did not close it.
2. Crowd control was inept, even by
contemporary standards.
3. After the event, emergency action was pitiful
and clearly negligent.
4. All authorities sought to lay the blame on the
fans, on the basis that it was obviously their own fault.
5. Evidence was
subsequently doctored to support that.
6. Subsequently until now, the
victims of the disaster and their families were unfairly considered if not
regarded with outright contempt.

Some still cling to their long held beliefs and generalisations in spite of
evidence to the contrary, but fortunately, finally putting the facts together
with their own experience, the general public are much more sensible than you
can imagine.

Leo September 14, 2012 at 11:03

Right… here it is, we are not all as thick as me, or, indeed, as thick as
you think we are. I now have your host. I am giving you 24 hours to remove
this pile of venom yourself, or I will see that it’s done for you, and I’ll
insist that you go with it.

That’s the choice.

Don’t think I can’t do it. Beleive me, I will trawl every Liverpool
football club fan site, and more, and I will get your hosts absolutely blitzed
with complaints and demands for you to be removed. It’s something I’ve done
before. I will do it again. You may think that’s pathetic. So, do I when
there’s so many bigger issues to be dealt with. But then, there’s 96 innocent
people who can’t defend themselves against this sort of bilge.

And Anna, do yourself a favour. Go get some help instead of sitting round
your cauldron mixing up this bile. You may feel better for it. But be warned,
I mean what I say. Remove this within 24 hours or I will do it for you.

adrian September 14, 2012 at 11:16

Seriously Leo I wouldn’t bother. Let those who are so blind that they
cannot see (or so prejudiced that they do not want to see) remain here with
their posts. So many people are on here and are politely trying to correct
the misinformation. Its probably a waste of time as I doubt the intended
audience are reading it.

let this stay and whenever someone says in the future ‘why are you still
fighting’ then point them to this blog and comments as proof why.

DuncMcAd September 14, 2012 at 11:45

Oooooooooh nice one Leo. You really ARE a TRUE Scouser. Red in shirt,
tooth and claw. Absolution is yours. Absolutely. RIP.

Woman
on a Raft September 14, 2012 at
11:52

Shssh…I’m hoping Doreen Lawrence will appear.

Libdem September 14, 2012 at 16:46

…and you’re a wanker!

Woman
on a Raft September 14, 2012 at
17:57

Maybe, but at least I’m not a Libdem, the party which was officially
run by a murderous predatory dog-shooter who who got away with it and
whose current 2ic is due to stand trial in October.

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 18:31

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. How soon it all degenerates to
this.
How sad the state of modern digital debate.

Libdem
September 14, 2012 at 19:54

You need to sort out your head, either you’re a wanker or you’re a
woman on a raft….which is it?
I’m guessing the ‘murderous predatory
dog-shooter’ is libel given as he got away with it so, again make up
your mind!

Woman on a Raft September 14, 2012 at 20:13

Poor Rinka.

JuliaM September
14, 2012 at 11:57

” It’s something I’ve done before. I will do it again…”

I think you might find that the modern laws against Internet harassment
aren’t in your favour. Especially when you announce your intentions so
boldly.

DuncMcAd
September 14, 2012 at 12:08

“Remove this within 24 hours or I will do it for you.” All for freedom
of speech are Scousers. UNLESS you malign a Scouser of course. We know all
Scousers are saints and absolutely absolved of all sin – and ‘the man’ is
a bad ‘un.

adrian
September 14, 2012 at 12:26

I dont think you’re helping here. If you could/would just take some
time to see viewpoints other than your own then people wouldn’t need to
get so frustrated

Woman on a Raft September 14, 2012 at 12:54

Leo’s viewpoint has been thoroughly aired and not censored by the
owner of this blog, despite him threatening her. Some blogs would have
deleted him by now. We can evaluate his opinion on that basis. I’d say
that if there is one person doing a disastrously bad PR job and making
the case for the police, it is Leo. If I didn’t think he was for real,
I’d be wondering if he was a black hat operation by now.

adrian
September 14, 2012 at 13:48

Sorry Woman on a raft, but when other people put their point of
view across that just differs from the ‘all scousers are drunk and
1000s of them went marauding into the crowd and killed their own’ then
it gets ignored. I havent seen one attempt by anybody to engage or
discuss the points put forward by people like myself on here which
actively provide evidence and information that might correct the
legacy misrepresentations.

This isnt about leo – his is an extreme and ridiculous reaction.
But it is about all the times when views put forward by others are
ignored just because leo might agree with it.

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 15:14

You have absolutely NO idea what on earth my viewpoint is.
I
simply point out that what seems amply evident by the hysterical
comments being made by (apparently) half the population of Liverpool –
that they are living up to that part of their stereotype which
declares that “We, the Scousers, are the downtrodden, the put-upon,
the unbelievably suffering, the unjustly criticised, the deprived, the
cheated, the exploited, the neglected, the wretched, the hopeless and
the helpless. We only have to open our Scouse mouths and we are
instantly looked-down-upon” (Despite the fact that the best Scouse
comedians – and footballers – and writers – and celebs – are hugely
popular multi-millionaires). Despite the fact that EVERYONE on this
thread is well behind and utterly believes the Taylor report and knows
now – and has probably thought for a long time – that the police and
the wretched media were well out of line to the point of criminal
culpability, Leo STILL wants to think that we all HATE him and all
Scousers and all those who attended the match and all those people who
sadly died and all those relatives who have mourned ever since. Their
pain made worse by not being able to get revenge on the police, the
ambulance crews, the FA, the politicians, the media and the
establishment who only did – as they ever do and do to this day as
Leveson revealed – pass the buck and absolve themselves from
responsibility.
Leo I really don’t get it! We are WITH the Taylor
report. So, where on earth is the hate here?

Libdem
September 14, 2012 at 16:56

Where are you from DuncMcAd? Tell us the approximate area and we’ll
encourage all the freethinking press to report about how everyone is
either a sheep shagger or a drunk or a wife beater especially those
whose names end with a ‘d’……..

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 17:25

I’m from Yorkshire, Dear Libdem. Want to make an issue of it?
I
know we’re supposed to be blunt.
Honest and blunt.
But
blunt.
If we want to shag sheep we go to Wales.
If we want to
beat our wives we ask their mothers first.
If we want to get drunk
we empty the piggybank first.
And all that’s just on the way to
church.
Pip, pip.

Frankie September 14, 2012 at 14:37

Ahem… Leo:

The definition of the offence of Blackmail is: ‘…In England and Wales
this offence is created by section 21(1) of the Theft Act 1968. Sections
21(1) and (2) of that Act provide:

(1) A person is guilty of blackmail if, with a view to gain for himself
or another or with intent to cause loss to another, he makes any unwarranted
demand with menaces; and for this purpose a demand with menaces is
unwarranted unless the person making it does so in the belief:

(a) that he has reasonable grounds for making the demand; and
(b) that
the use of the menaces is a proper means of reinforcing the demand.

(2) The nature of the act or omission demanded is immaterial, and it is
also immaterial whether the menaces relate to action to be taken by the
person making the demand.’

As the ‘loss’ referred to does not confine itself to money but to
‘intangible property’ then one would tend to assume the offence was made
out…

Oops!

The Filthy
Engineer September 16, 2012 at
20:45

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Amazing what scousers come out with.

Duncan McAusland
September 14, 2012 at 10:22

However hard the police and the rest of the conniving establishment is
‘bashed’ will not give the Scouse brigade the total absolution they so
desperately seek.
The ticketless fans who broke into the ground made no
contribution? The Taylor report shines a light on the dark corners of sloth,
ineptitude, lies, the corruption of doctored police reports and on how the
police and establishment regarded most football fans after a couple of decades
of football hooliganism. Yes they can now be blamed. But sorry Scousers – it’s
STILL not total absolution for all Scousers.

adrian September 14, 2012 at 09:21

You can easily understand how the police version of events has managed to
stay so long in the minds of some when you see the inability to read other
people’s posts that exist on these comments.

Any attempt to show a different view is met with comments of ‘scouser
defending his own’ even when people make it clear that they aren’t
scousers!

I don’t think anybody is saying that there weren’t people in sheffield or
near Hillsborough that day who had wither been drinking and/or were without a
ticket. Lets be clear that it isn’t an offence to be either of those. It
happens at any event that draws a crowd. Even the visit of the Pope or the
Dalai Lama when he is speaking!

So what defines being drunk? Well the coroner looked at the drink drive
limit as his benchmark when testing the deceased- now I’m sure most sane
minded people can agree that the level of alcohol that affects your ability to
safely manouvre half a ton of metal at 30mph is not necessarily the same as
the level which could affect your judgement in normal life situations.

Also just how many people fell into either or both category. Well as the
Taylor report found that the numbers who were in the ground before and after
the gate was opened when added to the crowd outside were roughly equal to or
less than the capacity for that end of the stadium (e.g. there was 2% margin
of error)

So we come to the issue of the late arrivals. Were there people who had
stayed in the pub drinking? yes. However, The journey from Liverpool to the
stadium was mapped and all traffic hold ups, train delays, traffic signals,
bus journeys etc were recreated in a modelling exercise and it was found that
there was not a significant level of lateness due to people being ‘in the pub
getting drunk’ but that the late arrival was caused by the traffic situation.

The question is, were these people who had been drinking and were drunk and
this c200 people without tickets the cause of the crush outside which led to
the fateful decision to open the gate and all the subsequent actions which
then caused the crush inside? In all these points Justice Taylor found this
wasnt the case. He also found that the levels of these categories of people
had been severely exaggerated.

All we learnt this week was that there was a concerted cover up to prevent
people from identifying to what degree others were to blame as well as a
co-ordinated smear campaign to make the exaggerations that Taylor referred to
and to therefore blame these groups of fans for the incident.

Now I don’t expect there to be anybody on here who will change their midn
by reading this but just for once if you dont believe me then please read the
Taylor report. It was written at a time when football fans were considered the
lowest of the low, Liverpool was considered a troubled city and when the
public appetite to blame the fans was as its most condusive. And yet a Law
Justice found that the fans were not the cause. In the light of this, any
community worth their salt would fight to clear their name and correct the
wrongs caused. And have seen the prejudiced views still peddled on here you
can understand why they keep fighting.

lindsay September 14, 2012 at 03:41

Wow, for a fellow scouser this is a hell of a piece. I take it you haven’t
bothered reading the Taylor Report, Phil Scratons book, any of the true facts
about that day. This may not get put up on your page but I find your ignorance
and willingness to denigrate the people of your own city incredible. I think
France is welcome to you.

Scouse Solidarity September 13, 2012 at 22:07

Wow. Came across this today on a site I frequent where yesterdays events
were being discussed and its incredible that people like Anna(if she actually
exists as she seems to be some sort of twisted, self loathing caricature more
akin to something out of a black comedy) are allowed to get away with spewing
such unsubstantiated lies. Its like the internet is some medium where the
notion of free speech will be stretched to its limits.

Anna is no better then the likes of MacKenzie. A shock jock pandering to
the Daily Mail demographic only to a much smaller audience, thats what this
piece seeks to redress with some sort of internet notoriety. Scouser(Im not
sure she is as in all my time Ive never heard one of us refer to ourselves as
“a Scouse”, a more well spoken citizen of the city would refer to themselves
as a Liverpudlian, a Scouser in the vernacular, but never “a Scouse”) shoots
off to France, buys an old farmhouse and mixes with a few old establishment
old boys club expat Brits and it rubs off, look Im one of you now. I know the
type, Im from Liverpool originally but moved abroad due to my partners
occupation being country specific. The main type of emigrant from the UK
behaves like they are colonising a foreign country, living in a bubble and
living in the past, its interesting that being from Liverpool is despite my
skills and experience a hinderance with English people, not so with Scottish,
Irish or Americans. A telling incident once was when I renewed my passport at
the British embassy, I queued up at the security check behind two leather
jacketed, rough faced unshaven Moldovan gentlemen who were treated with
fawning respectful language by the security officer when checking in, clean
shaven and well dressed in my work dinner hour I handed over my passport with
Liverpool place of birth, and opened my mouth I was brashly conducted about my
business rudely. This in a nutshell is indicative of the attitude of the
establishment to us. Ive lived and carved out a career in my new country but
Liverpool is still my spiritual home. The warmth and atmosphere of the city is
like no other.

The saddest thing about this is that I felt aggrieved enough to devote 20
minutes of my time to write here when I should be off to bed. Ill leave you to
your surreal corner of hatred.

Alex September 13, 2012 at 21:27

You should be ashamed of youself for this. Shocking. You’ll get what’s
coming to you.

Frankie September 13, 2012 at 22:07

“…You should be ashamed of youself for this. Shocking. You’ll get what’s
coming to you” said Alex, doing his (or her) best not to steryotype the very
behaviour – which Anna highlighted above! Priceless!!

Frankie September 13, 2012 at 22:08

Maybe that was “stereotype”!

John Ward September 13, 2012 at 21:26

Typically honest post from Anna.
Here’s one from a Manc who adopted
Liverpool….

http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/hillsborough-herewith-probably-the-most-unpopular-post-on-the-net-today/

Libdem September 14, 2012 at 00:22

‘Typically honest post’, you should be ashamed of yourself supporting
this bile. What’s the state of her warped childhood got to do with
Hillsborough?

Leo September 14, 2012 at 10:07

Nobody denies there were people who’d had a few many or had no tickets.
That happens at football matches. Believe it or not, it still happens at
football grounds, week in week out, till this very day. The point is, that
wasn’t a factor on the day. But then of course, the good and wise people who
spent years studying all the papers and tapes, don’t know as much as Racoon
and some random Manc.

Libdem September 14, 2012 at 16:43

It’s amazing how some rant from a bitter pensioner about her
experiences of Liverpool has damned the whole city, of course she hasn’t
included the whole population just 95% by the sound of it.
Then all
this anecdotal ‘evidence’ from people with little or no knowledge of the
city, they are the proof that the msm works; they’ve swallowed the version
hook, line and sinker. If many of the insulting people ‘contributing’ to
this blog represent British society then God help us all.

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 17:12

Bitter pensioner? Damned the whole city?
Sadly m’old Libdem you
cannot get around the fact that there is a national stereotype of the
Scouser.
Can’t help it – not my fault. Not her fault.
And this
stereotype has been been amply demonstrated to have some validity by
many of the comments on this thread.
The stereotype I referred to in
another comment is: “We, the Scousers, are the downtrodden, the
put-upon, the unbelievably suffering, the unjustly criticised, the
deprived, the cheated, the exploited, the neglected, the wretched, the
hopeless and the helpless. We only have to open our Scouse mouths and we
are instantly looked-down-upon” .
Of course it’s no more true than
lots of other stupid stereotypes like
“The Welsh are windbags and
thieves”
“The Scots are tight with their money”
“Yorkshire people
are all blunt.”
“Tyneside girls are an easy lay.”
“Londoners
wouldn’t give you the time of day”
“The Irish are thick.”
So why
do blogs like this attract just the sorts of people that want to prove
that your stereotype has some truth to it?

Libdem
September 14, 2012 at 19:50

Actually old chap it is precisely because of people like Anna that
the myths are perpetuated.
Your claim that the validity has been
demonstrated by the comments on this thread can equally be viewed the
other way round; perhaps proving there is a legitimacy in the claims
of the ‘downtrodden scouser’.

Are you asking why blogs like this attract apparent know it alls,
people who know more than the panel, people who are predisposed to
know the answer in advance of the question? Well, I guess the answer
must be that there are an awful lot of ignorant people around
supporting an equally ignorant blogger who perhaps should have read
the findings before telling us all about her prejudices.

Leo September 13, 2012 at 19:34

Firstly, I want to say a big Thank You to all the decent minded people who
took the time to object to this slander. I can’t thank you enough for your
comments, and the fact that not one of you became abusive and gave these
bitter people “The Tsunami of rage and hatred,” that the oh so brave Racoon
was bound to unleash from here keyboard somewher in France, where she’s very
rarely seen anyway, as it apparently never rains but does boast the finest
wines.

Weird that such an idylic life can harbour such bitterness, self loathing
and out and out hatred. But anyway, I’d really appreciate it if you could all
take the time to report this malicious slander. It can be done here…
http://en.wordpress.com/abuse/

I have already done so myself and encouraged many others to also do it. But
I wouldn’t feel right if I wasn’t up front about it.
SO PLEASE, REPORT THIS
HERE…
http://en.wordpress.com/abuse/

Hate Speech, isn’t Free Speech, no matter how good the grammar and spelling
is.
Bye Anna.

Anna
Raccoon September 13, 2012 at
20:15

Ah, wordpress.com. Wrong host I’m afraid. Nice try.

Leo September 13, 2012 at 20:41

Thanks for the information. Like I said, I’m only a thick Scouser, but
I’ll sort that out right now.
Bye Anna.

Frankie
September 13, 2012 at 22:03

Has he gone yet?

JuliaM September 13, 2012 at 22:03

You keep saying ‘bye’ and then you keep coming back!

You could at least give us a rendition of ‘I Did It My Way’….

Leo September 14, 2012 at 09:13

Hilarious. But I thought you were the educated people. Well, wakey,
wakey, I’ll badly spell it out for you… what I actually mean is, Bye
Anna, as in You Won’t Be Around Much Longer. As believe me, I will not
stop until this little cesspool of hatred and prejudice is shut down.

I hope that’s clear enough. And mock it as much as you like, but
think on this… there are millions of Liverpool supporters world wide.
When we stick together and mobilise, we can do quite incredible
things. Ask Kelvin McKenzie, Irvine Patnick, Boris Johnson, Rupert
Murdoch, The S*n newspaper, The South Yorkshire Police, Tom Hicks and
George Gillette.

Do you really think some twisted old Hyacinth Bucket and her
toadies can suceed where they failed?

It may take me a wee bit of time. It took millions of us 23 years
to get The True Truth, but we got it in the end. In fact, I shouldn’t
even be bothering with this nonsense, as there is still Justice to be
won. But, call me small and petty, I won’t stop until this sickening
little pool of malice and spite is removed.

Victim minded whinger, no. Just an ordinary Scouse lad who is tired
of seeing his family and practically everyone he loves stereotyped in
such a disgraceful manner, and will no longer stand by while hate
filled bigots and liars attack all our loved ones and home without
fighting back.

So, once again until it’s for the final time, Bye Anna.

Robert the
Biker September 14, 2012 at 08:51

Fuck you Leo

Leo September 14, 2012 at 09:14

Charming

Robert the
Biker September 14, 2012 at 10:45

Only possible response to a Nettkopp, one of the most despised
creatures on the web.
‘Hate’ speech is free speech, otherwise what
you say gets censored too; try and think about that before you go about
trying to ban people because you don’t like their opinions.

Elena
‘andcart September 14, 2012 at
12:11

He really should learn to read and process The English language.
There is No Hate Speech against The Victims in that Blog Post. I have
probably said worse, along with a few others. Is he going to get us
all Censored? I might have something to say about that.

Woman
on a Raft September 14, 2012 at
11:29

Still here, Pet?

JuliaM September 14, 2012 at 11:52

“But, call me small and petty..”

No need. You clearly have some self-awareness, at least.

Longrider September 14, 2012 at 18:28

<blocckquote.Hate Speech, isn’t Free Speech, no matter how good the
grammar and spelling is. Um, bollocks, frankly. There is no such thing as
hate speech. It’s an artificial construct designed specifically to shut down
dissenting voices.

Still, I’m sure WordPress will be bemused by your complaint. Anyway, I
thought you’d pissed off already…

Gregster September 15, 2012 at 00:05

Leo, I thought you were making your points well and forcefully but
exhorting people to get the site banned is quite pathetic and disgustingly
wrong. You’ve instantly lost my respect for your point of view (as well as
confirming Anna’s opinion, perversely). Silly thing to do.

proud scouse
September 13, 2012 at 16:55

Racoon, you may not realise it but you are a very disturbed individual,were
you abused by your father? I hope you get some therapy.

Elena ‘andcart
September 13, 2012 at 17:00

Pffftt.

jim September 13, 2012 at 15:10

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read.
The writer views
her childhood on a road in Liverpool as the norm for everyone else from the
city.

Has the writer read the 350 pages? I have. Come back when you have gone
through it with valid arguments. The disaster has been described as the
biggest cover up seen in the country.
What about the Spurs fans who were
hospitalized in 81 were very close to being the first victims at Hillsborough?
You had no idea did you?

And the ‘sub culture’ in the city? You mean the ones that are endemic in
every UK city? The myopic thought process of the posters here always makes me
laugh. When they can attack Liverpool, they paint the picture that everywhere
else is a utopia.
I remember in 2006 Channel 4 compiled a list of the ten
worst places to live in the UK. Liverpool wasn’t on the list. Three boroughs
in London were.
But of course no crime takes place there.
You live in
France. There are countless places you wouldn’t last two minutes in over
there. Your belongings would be in someone else’s hands within minutes.

By the way, MOST Liverpool fans don’t live in Liverpool. And did you look
to see where the all the 96 fans were from? You will find they were from
across the country.
The people of the city backed them and they weren’t all
from the city.

Edwina Currie is also a piss head who claims dole.
Peter Sissons is a
wife beating drunk
Anne Robinson is a shoplifter.
Paul McCartney is a
gangster.

No-one from Liverpool works. The people who actually work in the city are
shipped in daily from outside the city to cater for the 100% dole
claimants.
Now with the East Europeans entering the city, they have been
given accommodation at the docks. They are cheaper than the English workers
who complain too much.
By the way, whinging is endemic throughout the
UK.Whenever I return to the UK, all I hear is moaning.
Seeking justice for
wrongs (now proven), is seen by people who would allow someone to piss on
their shoes and tell them it’s raining, as whinging.
Yes, whenever you are
screwed over, take solace that you don’t have the balls to fight it. You’d
give up and thank your abuser for the privilege of being screwed.

Penseivat September 13, 2012 at 16:38

Jim, you left out that paragon of virtue Derek Hatton who, I understand
did his very best for the people of Liverpool by trying to bankrupt the
place by spending £30 million more than they received. Of course, he was
just an innocent pawn in the fiendish hands of the dreaded Margaret
Thatcher, whose fault it all was, wasn’t he?

Stabledoor September 13, 2012 at 14:29

Loving all the scousers coming on here and confirming the substance behind
the scouser stereotype in the article. The fans who died were clearly
innocent; they were killed by other Liverpool fans pushing their way into the
ground. Clearly the police made mistakes – we knew that 20 years ago – the
facts were established by the Taylor report. The new “revelation” that there
was evidence of police attempts to cover up their mistakes is really neither
here nor there, and doesn’t alter the facts. Nor does it absolve those
Liverpool fans who arrived late and crushed the fans at the front to death
from their share of blame. The evidence of police corruption seems in the
minds of some to prove that the Liverpool fans were entirely blameless. That
simply isn’t true.

adrian September 13, 2012 at 14:37

I’m not a scouser – but tell me where in the taylor report or yesterday’s
documents there is ANY documentary evidence that people were killed by
Liverpool fans PUSHING their way into the ground. You cant push at an open
door.

David September 13, 2012 at 18:06

From the presentation of the report:

‘The Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed
documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious
allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or
violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had
conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence
that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became
frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast
majority of fans assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the
dead.’

This also backs up the Taylor report.

Yesterdays report also uncovered that the story about the “drunken
ticketless fans” was written by Senior officers behind closed doors in a
briefing they prepared for a news agency, the most Senior officer advised
them to make the story “rock solid” to divert any attention from the
police failings on the day. In that room, the tales of urination,
drunkeness, and thieving were concocted. They had already falsely briefed
the press that the gate had been forced open, something which they later
admitted was untrue when video evidence proved otherwise.

David September 14, 2012 at 01:58

As suspected, there is no reasonable response when it does not suit
the anti-scouse agenda. This leads to the only obvious conclusion that
the people that continue to perpetrate this vile nonsnese are scum of
the highest order and should not be taken seriously. In short, you are
all clearly a bunch of utter cunts.

Leo and others, please leave these bigoted, ignorant idiots to fester
in their poisonous little holes while the rest of us that have fought so
long and hard for the truth can now set about bringing those accountable
to justice.

RIP

Jon-Paul Gilhooley 10 M
Philip Hammond 14 M
Thomas Anthony
Howard 14 M
Paul Brian Murray 14 M
Lee Nicol 14 M
Adam Edward
Spearritt 14 M
Peter Andrew Harrison 15 M
Victoria Jane Hicks 15
F
Philip John Steele 15 M
Kevin Tyrrell 15 M
Kevin Daniel
Williams 15 M
Kester Roger Marcus Ball 16 M
Nicholas Michael
Hewitt 16 M
Martin Kevin Traynor 16 M
Simon Bell 17 M
Carl
Darren Hewitt 17 M
Keith McGrath 17 M
Stephen Francis O’Neill 17
M
Steven Joseph Robinson 17 M
Henry Charles Rogers 17 M
Stuart
Paul William Thompson 17 M
Graham John Wright 17 M
James Gary
Aspinall 18 M
Carl Brown 18 M
Paul Clark 18 M
Christopher Barry
Devonside 18 M
Gary Philip Jones 18 M
Carl David Lewis 18
M
John McBrien 18 M
Jonathon Owens 18 M
Colin Mark Ashcroft 19
M
Paul William Carlile 19 M
Gary Christopher Church 19 M
James
Philip Delaney 19 M
Sarah Louise Hicks 19 F
David William Mather
19 M
Colin Wafer 19 M
Ian David Whelan 19 M
Stephen Paul Copoc
20 M
Ian Thomas Glover 20 M
Gordon Rodney Horn 20 M
Paul David
Brady 21 M
Thomas Steven Fox 21 M
Marian Hazel McCabe 21
F
Joseph Daniel McCarthy 21 M
Peter McDonnell 21 M
Carl William
Rimmer 21 M
Peter Francis Tootle 21 M
David John Benson 22
M
David William Birtle 22 M
Tony Bland 22 M
Gary Collins 22
M
Tracey Elizabeth Cox 23 F
William Roy Pemberton 23 M
Colin
Andrew Hugh William Sefton 23 M
David Leonard Thomas 23 M
Peter
Andrew Burkett 24 M
Derrick George Godwin 24 M
Graham John Roberts
24 M
David Steven Brown 25 M
Richard Jones 25 M
Barry Sidney
Bennett 26 M
Andrew Mark Brookes 26 M
Paul Anthony Hewitson 26
M
Paula Ann Smith 26 F
Christopher James Traynor 26 M
Barry
Glover 27 M
Gary Harrison 27 M
Christine Anne Jones 27
F
Nicholas Peter Joynes 27 M
Francis Joseph McAllister 27
M
Alan McGlone 28 M
Joseph Clark 29 M
Christopher Edwards 29
M
James Robert Hennessy 29 M
Alan Johnston 29 M
Anthony Peter
Kelly 29 M
Martin Kenneth Wild 29 M
Peter Reuben Thompson 30
M
Stephen Francis Harrison 31 M
Eric Hankin 33 M
Vincent
Michael Fitzsimmons 34 M
Roy Harry Hamilton 34 M
Patrick John
Thompson 35 M
Michael David Kelly 38 M
Brian Christopher Mathews
38 M
David George Rimmer 38 M
Inger Shah 38 F
David Hawley 39
M
Thomas Howard 39 M
Arthur Horrocks 41 M
Eric George Hughes 42
M
Henry Thomas Burke 47 M
Raymond Thomas Chapman 50 M
John
Alfred Anderson 62 M
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron 67 M

#JFT96

Leo September 14, 2012 at 09:22

I know David. I know there are far more important matters, and I
should just walk away. I actually do feel quite petty and sullied.
And, believe me brother, I do take part in far more important matters.
But then, I look at that list. Sorry, I know I shouldn’t be arsed with
these small minded, spiteful and malicious people, but I’m not having
it.

David September 13, 2012 at 14:04

Hi Anna, I thought I would share my experience of Liverpool with you. My
career and work path actually took me to Liverpool about 12 years ago and I
ended up staying and starting a business in the City. I have been constantly
amazed at how Liverpool defies the stereotypes labelled against it.

The City still has its problems and there are areas that suffer far worse
than others – as in all major Cities – but Liverpool is far removed from the
general perception that still surrounds it. It is a vibrant, forward-thinking
place with an incredible work ethic; so many people I meet are proud to live
and be successful in Liverpool. Plus you have the beautiful arcitecture, the
art scene, the music scene, great nightlife, excellent restaurants…I could go
on.

It is also the most welcoming and friendly place I have ever lived; nobody
cares about my southern accent and I am constantly surpised at how many
strangers will talk to you in the street or in the pubs. Even when I moved
here and lived in a rather dodgy area (that has since been knocked down and
regenerated), the neighbours all knocked on my door to introduce
themselves.

Maybe the people that move away from the City are the bigoted and
judgemental ones.

As for the drunken, ticketless fans at Hillsborough……this happens at every
football match, sporting event, rock concert etc up and down the country on a
weekly basis. People turn up without tickets with the hope of picking one up
on the day (look at Wimbledon every year) and yes, in some cases, sneaking in.
As for the revelation that football fans drink before a match….well
congratulations Sherlock! I do it every week before I go to the game; I meet
friends in a pub, we drink, we laugh, we moan about the team and then we go
and watch the game. No one is suggesting the fans at Hillsborough were all
sober or model citizens but…..

…..when 10,000 excited football fans are left to the own devices, without
any direction, organisation or implementation of standard crowd control
procedures then chaos will insue; that amount of people are never going to
just form an orderly queue while the police watch on doing nothing.

The stadium was a notoriously difficult place to get people into because of
the small area outside of the turnstiles and previous matches had procedures
in place to combat this, these procedures were ignored on that fateful day.
This is what the report has found – along with the subsequent attempts to bury
these facts from the public.

The Police defence about “drunken and ticketless fans” equates to a defence
that: the fans did what all fans have ever done at every football match
ever.

Leo September 13, 2012 at 13:19

“Aah, Free Speech is just for you, yes?”
No, it’ not. And for your
information, Mizz Racoon, I’d fight for your right to be heard. But what you
are doing is delevering hate speech hidden behind the veneer of free speech.
And I’d act in exactly the same manner no matter what community you attacking
in this despicable way. Reading between the lines, you probably need some sort
of help to deal with childhood issues, but you can’t be allowed to spread
disgraceful views like these just because you were traumatised in the city
where you were born. It happens to a lot of us. Most of learn compassion and
empathy from it. Sadly, they seem to have passed you by. I feel sorry for you,
sitting there, desperately seeking attention, by trying to be controversial
and condescending. But take a moment to think of what you’ve actually done. 96
innocents dead and slandered for 23 years. Do you have any idea how many
people that personally affects? Do you ever think of how your home town and
all it’s population has been so malicioulsly and viciously attacked? No. Well,
I hope you don’t unleash the “Tsunami of hatred,” that your readers are so
avidly waiting for. I’d hate to give you that sort of satisfaction. But
believe me, you will be getting the attention you so desperately sought.

I honestly pity you and hope you have learned something from this. Hatred,
bigotry and prejudice, are not very nice things. I hope you find peace from
them one day.

Elena ‘andcart
September 13, 2012 at 12:40

Well now, this has been a particularly good Blog. Absolutely everyone
expressing their opinions without censor. Thats what I call an excellent Blog.
Or have some of you missed something?

Ian F September 13, 2012 at 12:16

Anna and others in the G & T set
What if this incident had happened
at the Henley Regatta in 1989
You’d probably view a police cover up about
96 deaths (41 preventable after the event) differently.

JuliaM September
13, 2012 at 15:10

I think we all know the chances of this happening at the Henley Regatta
(or Ascot, or Wimbledon) are slim. There are many many reasons why.

start September 15, 2012 at 20:18

This kind of crushing also hasn’t happened (except in exceptional
circumstances such as during fires) in this country at pop concerts,
cinemas, theatres, any other sports or other event with large numbers of
attendees often in more confined spaces, with proportionately far fewer
stewards and smaller or zero police presence.

Of course the police were partly to blame for handling the situation
badly – but why was there a situation which needed to be handled in the
first place?
So some fans were late for traffic reasons – well tough,
that happens to thousands of people every day. You are going to be late.
Grow up and accept it. That doesn’t free you from having to behave like a
sane adult.

I am sure that some fans actions on that day initiated the problem but
as others have said this was waiting to happen and part of it has to do
with the long-term acceptance of dangerous situations at football matches
– and ordinary fans were not entirely blameless for this acceptance.

It was clear to anyone from the 1970s onwards that going to a major
football match was an increasingly dangerous activity because of the
behaviour of a minority of fans. They were the reason for heavy-handed
policing, the bad image of fans as a whole and the penning in of fans
which prevented fans at Hillsborough from escaping onto the
pitch.
Repeated riots, multiple deaths, almost weekly pitch invasions
and small scale violence at almost every league and cup game should have
drummed it home to reasonable people that they should stay away and
certainly not take their children. Yet still the football obsessed
went!
Some people didn’t go to major matches for this reason but if
more people had done the same then the footballing authorities would have
been forced to clean up the game earlier or live with crowds of only a
couple of hundred ignoring the game and beating the crap out of each
other.

macheath
September 15, 2012 at 22:03

One of the mysteries of modern football; the fans complain bitterly
about the cost of following a team, yet their emotional investment
compels them to continue with their TV subscriptions, new season’s
shirts and season tickets, like songbirds driven to nourish a cuckoo
chick.

It’s ironic that people who would be willing to strike if they felt
they were getting a raw deal at work will not apparently countenance
withdrawing their support from the game even while deploring management
decisions or the financial drain it represents; presumably the same
attitude kept the supporters attending matches in the 70s despite the
violence you describe.

I don’t have any personal experience of football matches, but the
fact that my mother-in-law has a season ticket for her local ground
suggests to me that today’s fixtures are a far cry from the scenes
depicted in 70s Giles cartoons of boarded-up shops and rattle-wielding
crowds heckling mounted policemen (or for that matter, the pre-1989 era
when my friends in Highgate would shutter their front windows on match
days).

No enquiry, report or investigation is ever going to establish the
full extent to which this factor contributed to the events at
Hillsborough but it can’t be completely ignored; it is surely fair to
say that the casualties and their families were, to some extent, the
victims of the irresponsible behaviour of a generation of fans before
them.

That aside, Anna, might I tentatively suggest that ’95 of them lay
dead in a short space of time’ is an unfortunate conflation,
amalgamating as it does the disparate elements of the crowd in the sort
of journalistic shorthand bloggers routinely use. The gross caricature
that has provoked such outrage was surely never intended to cast
aspersions on every single one of the victims, particularly since they
did not all originate from the Liverpool area.

One public comment that was made at the time of the disaster
surprised and puzzled me; someone was quoted in the news saying, “They
gave their lives for football”. I’ve often wondered about this since;
surely their lives were taken from them in a most distressing and
appalling way. It didn’t seem to make any sense.

However, in the light of this post and the resulting exchanges, I
think I am beginning to understand the thought processes that could lead
to such a statement being made.

denc September 13, 2012 at 12:03

I was at Hillsborough. I was amongst the Liverpool fans on the north side
at about 2.45. I heard them conspiring to steam the gates. [I doubt btw that
anyone on that committee knows what that means] Shortly afterwards I was at
the leppings lane end. An organised concerted effort at steaming was underway
by several hundred low life [ I will not call them fans]. They were beckoning
others to join in the pushing. Many ordinary fans who were late and still in
the queues at the turnstiles were in serious danger of being badly injured.
The police [ for whom i have little time usually] had little alternative but
to open the gates.. It is important that the fans who died be distinguished
from the scum who steamed the gates. Those that died had tickets and were in
the ground long before the steaming began. Those who caused the opening of the
gates and the subsequent overcrowding and pushing in the pens were at the back
and not injured.

Whatever the shortcomings of the ground or the police, a large number of
people generally from Liverpool, steamed those gates in large numbers and were
the number one cause of the tragedy.

For those who may not know what “steaming” is . It was a widely used
technique whereby large numbers of ticketless “fans” would deliberately cause
a dangerous crush around turnstiles by organised concerted pushing a forcing
the police or stewards to open gates to avoid injury. Liverpool fans had
successfully employed it many time before Hillsborough. I am not a cop or
officially connected in any way to Hillsborough. I am just a football fan who
was there.

Ian F September 13, 2012 at 12:21

I think you’re a wind up merchant mate
I’ve been to umpteen LFC away
games for over 30 years & would dispute your ‘version’ of events

adrian September 13, 2012 at 12:38

very interesting. did you give evidence to the police at the time? I ask
because clearly you have seen something that would have been relevant to the
inquiries at the time.

Andy September 13, 2012 at 13:05

Of course he didn’t. there isn’t a single mention of any of this in any
witness statements or police statements.

Andy September 13, 2012 at 12:55

At 2.30pm the congestion outside the gates was already unmanageable, this
can be seen on CCTV and is also in the taylor rteport. Anyone ont he North
side conspiring at this time would be too late to even get near the
gates!

Still clinging to the lies in the face of the truth?

Andy September 13, 2012 at 13:15

Additionally the time code on CCTV of when the gate is opened was 14:51.
So in 6 mins you heard these guys at the North walked round to the west (in
heavy matchday congestion), start this steaming and manage to force the gate
open?

I smell BS!

Ian A. September 14, 2012 at 00:12

Wow, that’s some imagination you have there denc. I actually feel pity
for you, not only are you clearly a very bitter and twisted individual but
you have now been reduced to making up ludicrous scenarios in an effort to
support your pathetic views. I have worked with a number of people like you
over the years – you know the type, “I was there”, “I said this” etc- and
the one thing they all have in common is the fact they are the subject of
much ridicule and mirth without knowing it. Sad really.

Hany September 13, 2012 at 11:17

Anna, did you actually read yesterday’s report? or do you just enjoy
looking like uneducated buffoon? or should I say uneducated Raccoon?

This is the first time I stumble upon this no-mark, useless blog and
thankfully the last time. Keep up with the awful work you pathetic excuse for
a human being.

adrian September 13, 2012 at 11:08

I have read this with a mix of interest and disbelief.

Let me start by saying that I’m not a scouser and have no relatives who
are. But I will say that I am a football fan – someone who travelled the
length and breadth of the country supporting my own team around the time of
Hillsborough.What is seemingly being said here is that because this was
Liverpool fans that they were the cause. Not that they were football fans but
specifically that they were Liverpool ones. I can honestly tell you that at
that time I met fans of many other clubs and those from Liverpool were no
different than many others.

The issue with Hillsborough and late arrivals was well known in football
terms – the traffic and roads leading to the ground regularly caused away fans
to be delayed. Even on sub capacity days. That issue had occurred as early as
1981 when Wolves played Spurs at the same ground. It had caused an issue in
1988 when Nottingham Forest fans had pleaded to be given the Leppings Lane end
due to issue scaused by traffic from the south and west having to cross each
other to get to their respective areas (and of interest also occured post 1989
at issues in the 1990s at an FA Cup semi final replay between Middlesborough
and Chesterfield and a League Cup final replay between Middlesborough and
Leicester). Those pleas werent heard and in 1989 the perfect storm occurred –
fans arriving late largely due to traffic, turnstiles that at most could only
allow less than 60 people a minute through (which meant a max of 3600 in an
hour which would have meant 2 hours for all the fans to have got in had they
arrived at a uniform pace over 120 minutes) and a police commander taking
charge of his first FA Cup semi final.

Were there drunk people there? – most definitely. Did some people arrive
without tickets? – most likely. But these werent factors that caused the
issues because as found by Justice Taylor stated (at a time when the public
view was condusive to accepting that drunken hooligans had caused the problem)
these were not relevant to the chain of events that occurred. At the time the
crush occurred – there were LESS people inside that part of the ground than
had been sold as tickets. They were funnelled towards an area that was already
full with no way of knowing (due to the long dark tunnel they were sent down)
that there was no room to get on to the terrace at the front. The two pens
either side were less than half full but there were no way for people to
spread along into them.

The surge through the tunnel actually caused death at the BACK of the
terrace. Those at the front were killed because crush barriers designed to
prevent the problem were indequate and they gave way causing the surge
forward. Sheffield Wednesday Football Club and Sheffield City Council both
knew that these barriers were faulty and should have resulted in a reduced
capacity to that end. They didnt act on it.

We now have proof that 116 out of 164 statements from officers and
ambulancement were so critical of the operation of the emergency services that
they were drastically changed. Interestingly not one of these statements backs
up claims of insulting or urinating on them, the dead and injured or
pickpocketing. If there was any truth in this point it would have been there
I’m sure.

So let me say this to conclude – this is not about Liverpool fans. It is
about Football fans and it could have happened to any set who were unfortunate
to have been there that day. Drunken behaviour, giving the Mrs a slap, being
unemployed, being ticketless are about as relevant to the debate as whether or
not they wore green underpants, had eaten shredded wheat or drove a Ford
Capri.

Jogsi September 13, 2012 at 11:06

Anna Raccoon: I cannot say that the opinions in your original post are
wrong, because they are just opinions and are as valid as anyone else’s.
However I do find your thoughts to be repugnant and riddled with contempt,
sexism and malice.

Alex September 13, 2012 at 10:36

I just don’t understand the point of the article.

Yesterday wasn’t about who was to blame for the accident. It was
established in the Taylor report, which I really think you should read, given
that it is the definitive legal and evidential account of the disaster (there
are also a number of excellent books on the subject which are available if you
don’t fancy the report itself). It was the police’s fault, to the greatest
extent.

Maybe there were ticketless fans, though the report says they were a
minority and not to blame. Maybe there were a few drunk fans, though the
report says they were a minority and not to blame.

I’ve never been to a sporting event, and I have been to a number of
football and rugby matches in various cities and countries, where I did not
see ticket touts selling tickets, and a few people turning up a little the
worse for wear for alcohol. THIS HAPPENS EVERY WEEK up and down the country.
The team here is irrelevant – Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen,
and one that almost happened in the years before the tragedy.

Drunk and violent fans have caused the police a lot of grief in the past,
and continue to do so, but they were NOT the cause of Hillsborough. To blame
the fans arriving late, who were delayed due to travel problems on the roads
between Liverpool and Sheffield, is like blaming the victim of a drunk driver
from walking out onto the zebra crossing, or blaming a person for being
burgled due to the temerity of them owning any possessions. Their only role in
Hillsborough was being incorrectly allowed into a gate, which led to an
overcrowded pen. Any fan would have tried to get through to see the match,
which had already started.

The lateness of the fans was, for many, unavoidable and accidental. They
were not, for the enormous majority, drunk or ticketless.

But I digress… Yesterday wasn’t about the blame. This has already been
apportioned correctly, and if you can’t be bothered to read the Taylor Report
then I can’t and don’t want to make you, because it’s not worth it.

Yesterday was about justice, fairness and clear evidence of a cover-up by
the police. The most important facets are that the time of 3.15 was an
incorrect cut-off point for the deaths, so that 41 people could have been
saved had the emergency services response have been adequate. Which it wasn’t.

Furtheremore, the SYP sought to shift blame by editing over 100 police
statements. This is FACT, not OPINION. This blame was shifted onto…. wait for
it… “drunk and ticketless fans”. Sounds strangely familiar. This was
disgusting at the best of times; to do it in the immediate aftermath of a
tragedy while the victims were still suffering, and to treat the deceased and
their families with the disrespect that was shown was shameful.

I’m not from Liverpool, but I like the city. But this is completely
irrelevant to yesterday, and I’m disappointed that people have used a day of
positivity for grieving families into some ammunition for a political
agenda.

I welcome any fair and reasoned response on any of the points above. I
don’t want to get into a slanging match about Liverpool as a city, or its
people.

Continue

Ian A. September 13, 2012 at 10:29

Oh dear. I fully understand how disappointing yesterday’s report must have
been for many of you. However, what is even sadder is the fact you are too
dense to realize the very people who were so spectacularly vilified yesterday
are the same people who have spoon-fed you your bigoted, stereotypical views
over the last 25-30 years. Doesn’t that make you angry? It must be so hard to
take. I’ll leave you to enjoy your bitter and today’s copy of The S*n.

Craig September 13, 2012 at 10:11

Given that the Leppings Lane end was under it’s capacity (Taylor Report),
can I ask where these ticketless hordes went to, if they were not in the
stadium? did they just disintegrate?
Anyone that knows anything about the
disaster, knows that it was caused by the central pens being overcrowded,
whilst the outer pens were almost empty.

Another factor you state in a comment is the people that were late. Given
that the central pens were already overfull at 2.30 and outside congestion was
already unmanageable (Taylor report), how are latecomers a factor?

“The media’s the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make
the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that’s power. Because
they control the minds of the masses.” – Malcolm X

Baaa baaa black sheep have you any wool?

Thor2Hammer September 13, 2012 at 09:57

There have as yet been no takers on my earlier comment – perhaps it was a
little too ‘complex’ for those who have explained at great length their
opinion of who “caused” the disaster. I’ll try again –
** ‘What if” – there
had been NO Police outside the ground? **

Anna
Raccoon September 13, 2012 at
10:03

I agree with you Thor. If there had been no police there trying to ensure
that hundreds of fans outside the ground didn’t get hurt or cause mayhem to
the local area, thwarted of watching the match, there would not have been
the disaster inside the pitch. They can’t win – avert one disaster and get
blamed for the ensuing disaster.
Which takes me back to my original point
– that those fans arriving late and ticketless must take their share of the
blame.

Middleman
September 13, 2012 at 10:07

Many fans were late due to well documented traffic problems.

Fans turn up to all kinds of events without a ticket, looking to buy
one outside the ground

What was pointed out in the report was a lack of police checking
tickets on the way to the turnstiles as had happened the year before

But all this is in the report. Which quite clearly very few of you
morons have actually read

ivan September 13, 2012 at 10:21

Since when has it been the job of the police to check tickets? Isn’t
that supposed to happen at the turnstiles?

Mark September 13, 2012 at 22:54

You have to love this idea. What would happen if there had been no
police at all on duty that day? Probably chaos Thor, what do you think?
What do you think would happen at any mass event of 50,000 people if there
were no police? Unless you’re some kind of deluded hippy with a touching
belief in the viability of a self-governing anarchist society you’d have
to conclude that a total absence of police would not add to the safety of
the general public.

But let me ask you something. Do you think the police turn up to these
events as a favour to the rest of us? Do you believe they perform their
duties on a whim or out of pure altruism, or because they’re obliged to?
Your question is stupid – and Anna is stupid for rubber-stamping it. We
pay our taxes, we expect the cops to be there. What’s true for Henley or
the Olympic Games is true for an FA Cup semi-final.

But, hey, let’s go along with Thor and ask an equally penetrating
question. What would happen if Dr Anna operated on your sore leg and
amputated it by mistake? Would you be angry and demand some justice, or
would you feebly nod your head when Dr Anna said “It could be worse.
Imagine if there were no doctors at all?”

AgainsTTheWall September 15, 2012 at 09:51

Some of us have a touching belief in orderly queueing, personal
responsibility and consideration for others.

Middleman September 13, 2012 at 10:04

The gates wouldn’t have been opened causing the surge and crush in the
pens.

But that’s a daft question and you know it.

Zanshin September 13, 2012 at 19:05

“What if” the police who WERE there did their job properly and didn’t lie
their heads off?

Jo September 13, 2012 at 09:48

Anna, I agree that many people have the victim mentality and there is a lot
of experience in what you wrote, however, you are 100% wrong about what you
wrote about the ’96′. Perhaps you should have read the report before you
spoke. I hope you will read it. Don’t forget that ‘man’ was responsible for a
safe venue, especially as there were known issues raised before the match.
Please don’t forget this would have happened if any other team was playing
there that day. Please don’t forget that new number …41…or the scale of
cover-up…or that mother who lives with knowledge that her 15 years old son
could have been saved ..instead was left to die…

MTG September 13, 2012 at 09:46

I do so enjoy reading the truth. Especially truth made truer by fanatical
support from fellow bloggers. Used to be a regular feature of policing, that
did.

Mark September 13, 2012 at 09:35

What a hate fuelled screed. I guess this is what it must be like in
golf-club bars up and down Middle England. Cheap insult, dramatic
overstatement, political bigotry, class hatred and every crappy scouse joke
you can get your G & T addled mind (ho ho, we can both play this game) to
rescue. The whole thing reeks of bitter disappointment with life and a
personal sense of being under attack – Marxists, trade unionists, the
unemployed, Tony Bland’s parents and scousers in general: they’re all so
obviously scapegoats for your own sense of failure. You cling to ‘freedom of
speech’ (a beautiful thing, I agree) with the bad faith of someone who is
trying desperately to provoke and outrage others with pure tirade and then
feigns surprise when people call you out.

There’s no point, I guess, trying to overturn your rancid ideas about
fellow human beings. I guess those prejudices are life-long and it would be
cruel to deprive you of material for your dinner-party conversations with the
like-minded. But you ought, perhaps, to cast your eyes over yesterday’s report
on Hillsborough. There you’ll see facts and the weighing of evidence, not
blind prejudice. There you’ll see arguments based on documentary evidence not
general principles or rotten stereotypes.. Without getting too grand, there
you’ll see the workings of a democracy and, yes, free speech, in action. The
truth came out yesterday. Underlined and footnoted. Belatedly, yes, and not
without a fight (oh, Marxists!). But out it came. That’s brilliant news for
the families of the victims and for the city of your birth. But it’s great
news for all of us too. It harms everyone when official lies are allowed to
fester and the police become party to a conspiracy to pervert the course of
justice.

It’s very sad to see the truth wasted on you though. Nobody likes to think
they’re sharing a community or a country with people who have closed minds. It
sort of defeats the purpose of free speech.

Enjoy your next G & T! And don’t burn your breakfast eggs. Have you
been to Anfield by the way? It’s fantastic.

AtWork September 19, 2012 at 10:55

Thank god you have written a comment with no class hatred, crass
generalizations about groups of people, or cliches about golf clubs and
G&Ts

Elena ‘andcart
September 13, 2012 at 09:26

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here. Obviously things
happened that are extremely regrettable but that doesn’t alter what started
it. And it certainly wasn’t The Police or The Emergency Services. It was a
load of drunken, ticketless Fans who arrived late from The Pub, and quite
probably hell bent on causing trouble.

And by the way, how can one’s opinion of ones own home town be bigoted? I
think London is disgusting for many reasons. Does that make me a bigot?

Middleman September 13, 2012 at 10:01

I think the misunderstanding is all yours. Read the report you
buffoon.

Rob September 13, 2012 at 10:02

‘“I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of
fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the
police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of
a large number
of late-arriving ticketless supporters). I am satisfied
that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did
not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small
groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance
of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk
too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that
main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area
outside the turnstiles,” The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 208.’

But feel free to continue spouting bollocks.

Anna
Raccoon September 13, 2012 at
10:08

“There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to
exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together
with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem
faced by the police.”

– and it only takes half a dozen hefty lads pushing forward to create a
surge.

JuliaM September 13, 2012 at 12:06

I refer everyone to the wise words of Agent K from ‘Men In Black’ on
the difference between ‘a person’ and ‘people’. It’s especially relevant
to the behaviour of crowds…

Zanshin
September 13, 2012 at 18:59

Straw grasping?

ramtops
September 13, 2012 at 21:45

I think you’re clutching a straws there.

Rob B September 13, 2012 at 09:21

Yeah, I really don’t care about Liverpool that much, or whatever tedious
hang-ups you have about growing up there. It doesn’t matter where the victims
of this disaster came from, and the notion that only Liverpool fans could have
gotten themselves into such a situation seems much more redolent of special
pleading than any of the proferred examples of “victim mentality” on the part
of Liverpudlians.

What matters is that police officer in charge made the wrong decision. It
was a decision he immediately knew was wrong, which is why he started lying
about it as soon as he had made it. He caused the disaster. In the aftermath
of the initial crush, the police and ambulance services made further mistakes
that excacerbated the disaster. Afterwards, members of both services, along
with tabloid journalists and Tory politicians, used smear tactics (several of
which are repeated in your blog post) to try to shift the blame to the fans
and to ensure that there was no public sympathy for the victims and
survivors.

Sameal September 13, 2012 at 09:19

What a complete load of bollocks.Anna Raccoon some middle class bint living
in France thinks she’s somehow controversial.Go back to your cookery program’s
wine tasting and living a life of quiet desperation.Raccoons and Weasels share
a common ancestor maybe that’s you Anna, after all your far from being
Human.

Espresso September 13, 2012 at 09:14

Just happy that ignorant bigots like you are now in the minority. Have
already made up your mind on what you think of the matter before even reading
the facts given out by the panel. Delude yourself as much as you want to the
truth. Close your eyes and enjoy your imaginary world. Too bad you don’t have
any facts on your side anymore to cling on. But enjoy your mental state.

Ian F September 13, 2012 at 09:13

I have been directed here by a link on a LFC forum.
I’m a (very)
non-socialist living in Chester, from a Liverpool family background.
‘Anna’
and some on here-you want to get a soul, a brain and a life.
The far right
is as bad as the far left, the milk of human kindness never touched your
chablis glass did it?
Utterly bereft of compassion or understanding-you’re
very much welcome to stay out of the North West for ever.
If your family
member was unlawfully killed & you hit a 23 year wall of cover up and lies
you’d possibly understand.
You deserve the others on here bar the Leo’s of
the world.

Fiachra Redmond
September 13, 2012 at 08:57

This is your response in light of an extensive, exhaustive report into the
events of Hillsborough and the subsequent coverup? You entire article is based
on your bigoted, outrageously offensive prejudice, nothing more. You are a
disgusting excuse for a human being.

pompey cowboy
September 13, 2012 at 08:33

I think this accident was a tradgedy for both Liverpool and the South
Yorkshire emergency services.
2 hrs before the match neither parties could
have any idea of the horror that was about to unfold
Both will be victims
of the incident
As for blaming the police and ambulance— it so easy to sit
back in an armchair with a nice fat salary coming in and give them a kicking—
its like shooting fish in a barrel and our media hasnt the guts to stand up to
this thought of thing.
As for ” changing” statements, this happens all the
time. Statements are made in draft first and then reviewed to remove ambigous
content, opinion and unecessary detail. The reason for this is to provide a
consolidated version of events for the court and also to prevent opposition
counsel from making a witness look like an idiot in court………. this will happen
in both prosecution and defence teams will review witness statements……. courts
are a battle
And the best person doesnt always win

Old Badger September 13, 2012 at 08:10

Heysel

Greg Tingey September 13, 2012 at 08:09

[ You forgot Tranmere Rovers! ]
Although your picture of some Scousers
is very bitter & funny, as a lifelong Londoner I can’t agree – many truly
innocent people were killed.
Ever seen the account of the entirely sober
family of FOUR (two parents, two daughters) who went to that game, and came
home with just the parents?

There is another point, as well:
Trust

So, now we all know what a lot of people suspected.
The police in
Sheffield, after the disaster in April 1989, quite deliberately lied, to cover
their own faults, and attempt to shift blame on to the victims themselves.
What is worse, for a time, they were at least partially successful in this
aim.

Unfortunately, this is not the only time this has happened, and the
question must now be asked: “If there are deaths, and the police are seriously
involved from the start, can any of their statement be taken as having any
relationship to the actual events, or the truth?”
Here are a few other
examples, not in any particular order, in either time, or importance, except
to the victims & their families.

The death of Ian Tomlinson.
Probably a case of manslaughter by a police
officer, which would have remained completely un-noticed, were it not for the
prevalence of modern mobile phones with video facilities.

The murder of Jaun de Menezes
We think we know that the police officers
who actually killed de Menezes were acting under what they believed were
legitimate orders, but there are other considerations, even apart from the
complete organisational chaos & lack of communication on that
day.
These arise from the statements made by MetPlod to the press &
public, such as:
“He was wearing a bulky jacket/coat .. / .. He was running
.. / .. He jumped the barriers at Stockwell .. / .. He ran down the escalator
.. / .. He was behaving in a (very) suspicious manner …”
NOT ONE of those
statements was remotely true, but they had to be picke apart, bit by bit from
other witness-statements.

The cover-up over the murder of Stephen Lawrence
Why did MetPlod prefer
to be thought “racist” or even “institutionally racist” rather than admit what
was painfully obvious to large numbers of Londoners, that the local police
were hand-in-glove with the local gang(s), some of whose members had actually
committed the killing? It is highly likely that some local officers were
corruptly involved with the aforementioned gangs, but it seemed easier to lie,
and to hassle S Lawrence’s companion on that day, rather than to make an
arrest for murder.
Note that this is different from the case of the
notorious Kray twins, who had managed to wangle high-level political
protection, through blackmail, until they actually committed a gun-murder in
public, at which point the police were able to successfully “get” the people
they knew were violent criminals, but were prevented from touching, up to that
point.

The Murder of Blair Peach
By members of the disbanded Special Patrol
Group. Beaten to death in a suburban front garden-patch, for being on the
wrong grid-reference. The death covered up enough to ensure that the uniformed
murderers have escaped with pensions paid for by our taxes.

And many more.

Who shall guard the Guardians?

And can we believe a word they say, under almost any circumstances?

Anna
Raccoon September 13, 2012 at
08:50

“many truly innocent people were killed”.

Absolutely. The victims were those at the front who were crushed. How can
any view of those latecomers at the back possibly be blaming the victims?

That is what is wrong with this entire argument. All were fans, those at
the front and those who arrived and crowded in at the back. Trouble is that
having any view of the latecomers – ‘Fans’ – is automatically taken as an
insult to those innocent fans at the front….

In this case, there are ‘fans’ and ‘fans’.

Chris Morris
September 13, 2012 at 19:59

As a resident of Nottingham, I remember the comments made by returning
Forest fans. Their view of how things were matches Anna’s rather more than
the scouse rent-a-gosb we see here loudly shouting how their own fans were
all saints.

Wasn’t the Heysel disaster also caused by ramaging pissed Liverpool
fans?

Robert the
Biker September 13, 2012 at 09:36

“It is highly likely that some local officers were corruptly involved
with the aforementioned gangs, but it seemed easier to lie, and to hassle S
Lawrence’s companion on that day”

The Duwayne Brooks file:

October 1993 Surrendered voluntarily to Bexleyheath police station, where
he was charged under section 2 of the Criminal Justice Act, relating to an
allegation of violent disorder at a British National party march. Eventually
the proceedings were stayed on December 13 1994 after the judge ruled an
abuse of process. The judge had invited the CPS to discontinue the
case
earlier, but it refused to do so.

May 27 1998 Police requested an interview about an allegation of
kidnapping at Catford station. He was bailed until July 23 when police
announced that they were taking no further action.

July 8 1998 Stopped under the Prevention of Terrorism Act in the City of
London. Searched and arrested for possession of a knife and theft of a
credit card. Bailed from the police station and when he returned on August 4
was charged with possession of an offensive weapon. The action was
discontinued in September.

July 4 1999 Stopped by police in his car, which was searched. A
photocopying tool was found (he works as a photocopying engineer). Police
alleged it was an offensive weapon and charged him with possession of a
bladed article. They also found credit cards and chequebooks in the car
and
he was arrested for handling stolen goods. He was bailed to appear
before Tower Bridge magistrates. The case was discontinued on August 3.

August 17 1999 Arrested in Peckham, south London, for taking and driving
away a car and threatening behaviour. Taken to Peckham police station and
bailed until August 6, when police notified him that they were taking no
further action.

September 16 1999 Arrested and charged with attempted rape and indecent
assault. Originally refused bail by police and court. Finally bailed on
September 29 on condition he resided in Birmingham. At his committal hearing
on November 5 police announced they had dropped the charge of attempted
rape. Yesterday an Old Bailey judge threw out the case as an abuse
of
process.

That scumbag Duwayne Brooks had all prosecutions dropped so when he
appeared as witness in the Stephen Lawrence trial his role as witness would
not be compromised

Greg Tingey
September 14, 2012 at 07:51

Or, perhaps, all those arrests & attempted prosecutions were a
deliberate smear campaign?
I suggest you read Anna or Private Eye’s
comments on the L.B.of Hillingdon & its’ behaviour in persecuting an
inconvenient individual, & think again?

Zanshin September 13, 2012 at 18:50

Good post

Thor2Hammer September 13, 2012 at 05:27

“What if” – there had been NO Police outside the ground, and the stewards
inside had ensured that everyone coming through the gates; a) was
sober;
;b) had a ticket, and; c) went to the correct part of the
stands…..?

[By the way – this week’s in-word seems to be BIGOT = person who makes any
remark I disagree with.]

Robert the
Biker September 13, 2012 at 09:23

Yes, I believe that definition of ‘bigot’ was coined by George Bernard
Shaw “One who vehemently and insistantly clings to an opinion which I do not
entertain”

Chris September 13, 2012 at 01:03

Poor old Leo, my mother is dead and so’s my father, my son is ill, I’m
suffering from a suspected stroke, I get beaten up by non scousers and I’m 56!
Life’s just shit for you, best we stop saying bad things about scousers to
ease that terrible burden you bare.

Leo September 13, 2012 at 09:01

See, here we go. I knew it was a waste of time talking to you people. But
I took the time to explain some of the things we have had to endure simply
because of where we were born and how we speak. Even though I have a very
nice life and I’m surrounded by loved ones, there’s barely a day goes by
when some bigot doesn’t say something like this to me. When I won’t stand
for it, it’s usually followed by, “Oh it’s only a joke. Where’s your famous
Scouse sense of humour.” Putting up with this sort of bigotry, and hearing
your loved ones and family constantly called, scrounging, drunken, victim
minded thieves, isn’t funny.

Oh, I know you’ll just blame me and call me the victim for refusing to
take this bile and prejudice but, believe me, I will not stand by and let
you freely spread this disgraceful slander and stereotyping. 40 years, I’ve
endured this. 96 people, 2 of whom belonged to my family, have been degraded
in this manner for 23 years. Yesterday we finally found some truth and
comfort for them. We will not take it any more.

Thud September 13,
2012 at 00:36

Done here now, associating here with so much hatred and bile is not good
for the soul, even my catholic wife beating scouse one.

AgainsTTheWall
September 15, 2012 at 09:37

We live in a world where justified criticism is now hate! We could call
it Scouseworld.

ivan September 13, 2012 at 00:12

I can’t help wondering how much of this report is fact, how much is
pandering to the local social aspect Anna has outlined and how much has been
left out.

It reads as if it was produced to pacify the local vocal voices. It
conforms too much to what has been shouted for so long.

Yes, it was a tragic happening but there have been other tragedies that
have not had the same vocal minority keeping them alive. The fact that this
happened in the heyday of football hooliganism appears to be totally
overlooked or passed off as not relevant when, in fact, it was a key
element.

I very much doubt this will satisfy the ‘victims’ – though why they call
themselves victims is beyond me – they will be looking for compensation,
something the government should NOT even consider giving them. If anyone was
to pay compensation it should be the FA.not the tax payer who had nothing at
all to do with it.

Thud September
13, 2012 at 00:34

Why was hooliganism a key element? because you say so? nobody else
connected with this issue seems to think so. As for your compensation claim,
well its a cheap shot and rather typical of a person who seems to view the
tragedy with such distain.

Zanshin September 13, 2012 at 18:41

” It conforms too much to what has been shouted for so long.”

Perhaps it conforms because they were right all along??

Humble Observer
September 12, 2012 at 22:49

As a Sheffielder, ‘born & bred’, THANK YOU Anna. I’m fully expecting
everyone born in Sheffield being forced to pay ‘reparations’ to Liverpool…

Thud September
12, 2012 at 23:39

How so? why would Sheffield owe the city of Liverpool anything? Why thank
Anna? are you not capable ofyour own biggoted comments? I’m not usually so
thin skinned but the hate shown in many comments here is shocking, we are
talking about shattered lives here, 23 years of pain for countless people
and yet some here just see the events of today as an opportunity to attack a
whole city of people, surely common decency would hold at least for
today.Just for a moment remember those whose loved ones did not return from
such a mundane activity as watching a football match and imagine the growing
horror as those dead are reviled by such august bodies as the sun
newspaper….shame on all here.

Woman
on a Raft September 14, 2012 at
07:48

The report says the city failed to take its supervisory and licencing
duties seriously in respect of the ground. It’s not definitive, but its an
aggravating factor but as the city has the taxpayers to fall back on, they
are the obvious ones to sue for compensation.

AgainsTTheWall September 15, 2012 at 09:34

You just can’t keep a good Scouser down (or from misrepresenting the
issue when it suits). Noone’s reviling the dead and noone’s pretending
Hillsborough was anything other than a tragedy.

Thud September 17, 2012 at 22:20

You need to read the original post again then, revile is not strong
enough.

Matt September 12, 2012 at 21:51

Glad to see you got “causal” not casual at the second attempt.

And you don’t “paw” over reports you “pore” over them.

I do think the tenor of your remarks is undermined by some of the
disgusting things today’s report disclosed.

The Meissen
Bison September 12, 2012 at 23:01

I think it’s more polite to do your subbing in a side email than in the
comments and anyhow how come you missed “impune” for “impugn”?

Matt September 12, 2012 at 23:29

I took my lead from JuliaM (comment 44 at time of writing).
I didn’t
miss impune —I forgot it.
Anything else?

Elena ‘andcart
September 12, 2012 at 20:57

Well thank you all for that. Having spent most of today wading through
reports of Corruption, Incompetence, Cover Ups, Criminal Negligence and
Grovelling Apologies, some of which were undoubtedly true, or warranted, I was
still left wondering what happened and how it started. I now know it started
in precisely the way I always thought it had. Although listening to David
Cameron I did half expect an Avenging Angel for a minute or
two.
Incidentally, while married to a Yorkshireman in the 1960s I was never
allowed to go to a Football Match for fear of what might happen to me at the
hands of all of the drunken yobs that I was assured would be there. Mind you,
he could have been lying.

Mudplugger September 12, 2012 at 20:53

In my uninvolved view, there are three key aspects to this case.
1) The
crowd control which led to the 96 deaths and the response of the authorities
on the day.
2) The deeply cynical way in which the authorities later
manipulated the evidence to cover their arses.
3) The endemic
victim-culture prevalent in Liverpool’s natives.
With reference to items
(1) and (2), it is right that, albeit belatedly, the whole evidence is made
available, enabling all to understand how the event happened. Is is to be
hoped that all crowd-control authorities will have learned vital lessons in
both their service delivery and post-event analysis in order to limit the
chances of recurrence.
With reference to item (3), nothing from this event,
or from Anna’s cultural analysis of it, or anything any of us outside that
area can do, will ever have any effect on the deeply-entrenched victim-culture
of Liverpool. It’s a lifestyle choice, they’ve chosen it, they’ll continue
living it – the danger from the Hillsborough cover-up is that it will be seen
to validate that choice and thus perpetuate it.
If you’re brave enough, go
back to Liverpool in 50 years and see if anything has changed – my money says
it won’t have.

Leo September 12, 2012 at 22:49

I have picked this post as an example, because it is absolutely
disgusting. But then, it is no worse than most others. How dare you.

A city is purposely ran into the ground by an uncaring government, in a
“period of managed decline,” as it was deemed, “The toughest nut to crack.”
96 of it’s people are killed because the authorities made one catastrophic
mistake after another. 41 of them men, women and children could have
potentially survived this tragedy. Yet, 41 ambulances stood unused outside
the stadium as the police refused the emergency vehicles access. This, and
far far more, has came out because, no matter how villified we were, we
refused to stop fighting on behalf of our loved ones.

Whinging victims, no proud people who will not stand by and see their
city and their loved ones so wrongfully attacked by the likes of you. You
should hang your head in shame. As for myself, I’m going to enquire into
what can be done to stop people like you spreading this sort of disgraceful
filth, even after you and your shameful opinions have been proven wrong. You
are talking about the population of a whole city, let alone the people who
lost loved ones in that terrible tragedy. You would not dare stereotype any
other people from any other city in such a disgraceful way. In fact, you
wouldn’t get away with it, and rightfully so.

The bile and hatred contained in here really is a disgrace that I cannot
and will not tolerate. Rest assured, I’m am no whingeing, victim minded,
drucken yob and I will be looking into what can be done about this. Do you
realise the hurt this insensitive nonsense has caused to so many decent and
wrongfully maligned people. I’m sure you don’t, and I’m sure you’d be only
too pleased to find out what more hurt you are causing by insisting on this
disgraceful course, even after the likes of have been proven so woefuly
wrong. And I can imagine how wronged you’ll feel when this is taken
further.
Disgraceful.

Engineer
September 12, 2012 at 23:43

“A city is purposely run into the ground by an uncaring
government…”

Leo, I don’t want to be argumentative, but that’s exactly the sort of
comment that feeds those who accuse Liverpool of having a victim culture.
The city was never purposely run into the ground, by government of any
stripe. Liverpool’s prosperity and employment revolved around the docks,
and when shipping changed from loose cargo to containerisation (mainly to
save cost), the labour force rquired to load and unload ships dropped
dramatically. Secondly, the size of ships increased, rendering most of
Liverpool’s docks too small, and other ports (Felixtowe, Immingham,
Southampton) with better deep-water access and more modern facilities took
a lot of the business previously done by Liverpool. No government
organised that – the shipping industry worldwide just went that way.
Indeed, governments tried to do something to regenerate the city – not
enough, maybe, but try they did.

Thud September 12, 2012 at 23:49

Geoffrey Howe apparently encouraged the Thatcher govt to let Lpool
enter a period of managed decline as he called it. Why he did and what
form it took I have no idea but happen it did.

Engineer
September 12, 2012 at 23:58

As a response to the decline of the docks, which happened for the
reasons outlined in my comment, and were not government inspired.
Thatcher then authorised Heseltine to regenerate not just Liverpool,
but other depressed areas as well. How successful he was in his
efforts can be debated, but government did not just walk away.
Remember the Garden Festival? What has the city done with that
site?

Michael
September 13, 2012 at 18:54

To be fair, Heseltine pretty well made up for that.

ramtops
September 13, 2012 at 21:41

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16355281

Leo September 13, 2012 at 07:57

No. Comments like your’s is what gave this city that reputation. Yet,
despite all evidence proving you and your type wrong, you willfully
perpetuate this prejudice. I know all about the docks. I know all the
causes of the poverty in my city. I lived through it, including the
Thatcher years. Did you? No. So, I think I am a bit more qualified to
speak about Thatcher and her government’s secret papers.

This sort of prejudice and bigotry was rightfully outlawed many years
ago. Still, people like you in here, supposedly educated, professional
people at that, think you can just go on spreading these malicious
stereotypes as you please. You can’t. And the only reason you can’t is,
us victim minded whingers will not stand for it. Ask Rupert Murdoch.
Maybe if you people had listened to us, instead of telling us to move on
and just get over loosing 96 loved ones, Murdoch wouldn’t have been
around to hack into the phones of murdered teenagers and veterans.

I’m honestly appaled at the views in here. I could understand it if
it was in some football forum, but you people know no shame. Despite
being a thick Scouser, complete with bad spelling and grammar, I didn’t
get abusive, obscene or threatening. I tried my best to explain what
sort of hurt and bigotry these views spread. But never mind me, even
after all the evidence of yesterday, your only instinct is to carry on
this unwarranted and bigotted attack. For goodness sake, do you realise
the hurt that causes the greiving familes. 41 people my still be alive
today if this attitude didn’t exist. One poor mother has had to endure
23 years of knowing her son woke up and called out for her, and could
have been saved if the police had done their job. Some of these poor
people still haven’t got death certificates for their loved ones.

All this, and far more, has even been admitted by the Conservative
Prime Minister, but all you people could do was carry on the mallicious
myth and smugly stereotype the compo seeking, DFS sofa dwelling, dunken
wife beating, sister molesting, victim minded, whingeing Scousers. You
defend this as “Free Speech.” Well, belive me, I’m going to make it my
business to see that this little corner of hatred isn’t allowed to
freely get away with this.

Engineer
September 13, 2012 at 11:36

Leo, my original reply to you stated that your comment was the sort
that fuelled the bigotry of those accusing Scousers of a victim
mentality, and this comment does not change the general thrust.

Firstly, the reasons I gave for Liverpool’s decline as a port
stand. Containerisation did not just change Liverpool, it changed a
large chunk of the shipping industry and many other world ports. It
was enthusiastically embraced by the world shipping industry because
it cut costs, and because it greatly reduced the problem of pilfering,
which was endemic in many world ports – Liverpool wasn’t the worst. No
government decreed that containerisation would happen; many had to
cope with the effects. Likewise the increase in ship size, which
rendered many docks too small. The result for Liverpool was the the
dock workforce shrank dramatically, and the knock-on effects affected
the city badly. Far from walking away, government did try to
regenerate employment prospects, with some (perhaps limited) success;
but walk away and leave Liverpool to it’s fate they did not.

When Liverpool put’s it’s mind to it, it can beat the world. Way
back in the early 1980s, I had cause to work in Escort the assembly
lines at Halewood. There were many derogatory jokes about Halewood at
the time – dartboards up all over the place, beds in quiet corners,
empty crisp packets littering the floor; all true, I saw it for
myself. However, when Ford sold the plant (now building Jaguars and
Range Rovers) to Tata Motors, they stated that it was their most
productive assembly plant in the world, with the most engaged and
productive workforce; Jaguars and Range Rovers are noted for their
build quality. That’s a spectacular turnround, and just proves what
Scousers can do when they get the right mindset.

Right – am I still a prejudiced bigot?

Henry
Crun September 15, 2012 at
14:08

Ahh the obvious recourse of the “victim”, It was all Thatcher’s
fault. Really Leo, you just show yourself up to be just another
left-wing loser with an axe to grind and a chip on the shoulder. Sure
you aren’t related to Jack Straw?

JuliaM September 13, 2012 at 05:48

“As for myself, I’m going to enquire into what can be done to stop
people like you spreading this sort of disgraceful filth…”

Nothing. We have free speech in this country (just!).

Leo September 13, 2012 at 07:28

We’ll see about that.

Anna
Raccoon September 13, 2012 at
07:36

Aah, Free Speech is just for you, yes?

AgainsTTheWall September 15, 2012 at 09:28

Hey she’s getting lippy – go on Leo stick one on her!

Henry
Crun September 15, 2012 at
14:10

The left’s definition of free speech – Say what you like as long as
you agree with me. Say what you don’t like and I’ll silence you by
fair means or foul.

Frankie September 13, 2012 at 21:37

@Leo: You are missing the point of this article entirely and, perhaps,
the whole point of discussion forums such as AnnaRacoon.

People on here are exercising RIGHTS OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION –
GUARANTEED BY THE EUROPEAN CONVENTION ON HUMAN RIGHTS (ECHR); AN
INTERNATIONAL TREATY TO PROTECT FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS, ENACTED
IN THE UK BY THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT 1998.

No one actually asked you to offer your views but you did so, because
you have the right to have and express opinions freely. You may not agree
with the views as posted but… surely that is the point of having a
discussion forum! People do not always agree!! Voltaire said ‘…I may not
agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to
say it”. Anna’s background would, I am sure (if you had bothered to find
out) contradict your strongly held opinion that she is some sort of bigot.
In reality she is very much the opposite.

Finally, as you keep threatening to leave, why not be a good chap and
actually go?

Penseivat September 12, 2012 at 20:21

If there was an enquiry in this country today on the New York attack on
9/11, it would no doubt blame the emergency services and the city authorities
for failing to save the lives of the many people who died when the planes were
flown into the two towers which then collapsed. The fact that the causal
effect was the hi-jacking of the planes by mad Islamic suicide murderers would
not be taken into account. Such is the Grauniad level of self-righteousness
and necessity to beg forgiveness for crimes which may or may not have happened
in the past. If the hundreds of Liverpool supporters, drunk or sober, had not
turned up at an all-ticket match without tickets and demanded entry, this
tragedy would not have happened. Another causal effect is the Liverpool mantra
of it always being someone else’s fault, demanding ‘justice’ and beginning an
industry of continual complaining until the ‘right’ conclusion has been made.
I’ve had the privilege of working with men and women from Liverpool, both in
the Army and the Police, the majority of whom left the city as quickly as they
could and showed no intention of returning. Similarly, I have endured the
horrors of working with men and women who were ‘professional scousers’ in that
they expected to be given leeway in their behaviour because they happened to
be born in the same city as John, Paul, George and Ringo (by the way, I was
told – by a Scouse – that John Lennon airport is so named because it was the
first place he headed for when he started making money and could afford to
leave. No idea whether it’s true or not). The inquiry lawyers no doubt, as
lawyers do, ‘cherry-picked’ sections of the available evidence to make
everyone except the good citizens of Liverpool the reason for the tragedy.
Inquiries always produce evidence biased towards the intended conclusion and,
if necessary, carrying out character assasinations of those either too old or
who have since died, to protect themselves. This is called incurring
acceptable political casualties. As long as none of these casualties are
linked in any way with the relevant political party holding the enquiry, then
the end result is classed either as acceptable or successful. I will leave it
up to any reader to make their mind up which this is. A press release will no
doubt add that ‘lessons will be learned from this’ and, I hope, that the local
Police refuse to cover any future football games at The Kop or Goodison Park.
That’s learn ‘em (sic).
Penseivat

Thud September
12, 2012 at 20:41

I have a large number of friends and family members in liverpool who I
presume you would judge as failures as they still live and thrive in the
city but then your blind misreading of the findings and your obvious bigotry
would probably lead you to traduce them too.As for the police I suppose the
falsifying of 116 statements is a matter of no report, just what would the
yorkshire police have to do to convince you of wrongdoing on a grand scale?
I have no axe to grind as regards to the police ( a policemans son) nor
Thatcher ( I’m a rarity in liverpool) but something was wrong here and we
are now seeing that wrong put right….the families deserve it.

Zanshin September 12, 2012 at 20:42

That’ll learn ‘em – once a teacher always a teacher.

Penseivat
September 12, 2012 at 22:57

Sorry, never a teacher. An Instructor (Army) but a teacher? No thanks.
The term was meant to be ironic but the irony was possibly lost in
translation.

Dick
Puddlecote September 13, 2012 at
01:01

“If there was an enquiry in this country today on the New York attack on
9/11, it would no doubt blame the emergency services and the city
authorities for failing to save the lives of the many people who died”

Funny you should say that.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/2012/09/06/airlines-to-face-lawsuit-over-lax-911-security

binao September 12, 2012 at 20:13

On a lighter note after all the bitterness, readers will be pleased to know
that the FA has solved the ground problem for the forseeable future.
Even
at non league games of quite lowly nature, such as are played on the local rec
now need full ‘ground’ enclosure to exclude nonpayers +turnstile, stand with
seating capacity of 50, floodlights so all games nationwide can commence at
3.00pm. With attendance often exceeding 30 people. And there are huge grants
available from the Football Stadia Improvement Fund including now for social
as opposed to playing facilities.

To return to the other stuff- even with my origin of Whitley Estate
(sometime called the polygon of doom) in Reading I was shocked back in the
70′s when I moved to Glasgow to work, with this weird thing with FTP and FKB
painted everywhere (I had to have it explained to me), marching thugs and the
ever present drink.
If you haven’t been around a bit, especially in
industry, it’s easy to be unaware of some of the more extreme attitudes and
circumstances in our so tolerant country. Yeah I know it’s a long time
ago.

Wolfers September 12, 2012 at 19:16

I remember the day very well, I was only just a teenager and was struck
dumb at the scenes. Too young to remember Heysel, Hillsborough was an earth
shattering movement for me. I had and still have no connection to Liverpool,
either the city or the football club. However I do know football like the back
of my hand.

It was a vicious circle, and one that is still repeated today in other
spheres. A small number of attendees at football matches acted like animals,
and so the whole were treated like animals. Their movements restricted, being
barked at by a police force expecting the worst. Being necessarily defensive,
the police acted how they do best when confronted with a big crowd that may or
may not be hostile – treat them as being hostile. This is true of all football
at the time, not just Hillsborough. Treating the crowd as a hostile force, the
crowd responded as a hostile force. Thus there is no desire from either side
to listen to, or comply with, the orders and/or requests from the other.

You then factor in an industry with the worst customer service record,
secure in the knowledge that if you treat your customer like crap, he’ll still
come back, it is commercial tribalism which is unlike anything, with the
possible and inexplicable tribalism displayed by iPhone and Android devotees,
mad individuals who will scream at each other for their choice of mobile
phone. That attitude from football resulted in terrible stadia and a slapdash
attitude toward the customer. Then consider that the hosts of this event were
not even hosting their own supporters, these were somebody else’s devotees who
could be treated like crap, wonderful!

Finally you then have a very limited commodity that everyone wants, so
naturally they go along whether they have a ticket or not, they might get
lucky, they might pick up a ticket by fair means or foul. They might sneak in.
It’ll only be me and my mate. The fact that there are 10,000 me and my mates
doesn’t get considered. People are thoughtless, the football fan is thinking
of the match, not of the logistics of crowd management. It doesn’t make him
bad, it makes him human.

Hillsborough was a tragic but perfectly predictable outcome, and it had
been predicted. Heysel should have been the wake up call, but it was ignored.
If anything it made the police tighten their grip and clubs treat supporters
even worse.

Who was to blame? Everyone. The FA for choosing the ground, the police for
their poor planning and bad attitude, the ticketless fans for trying to get
entry. All of them. No-one is without virtue, no-one is without fault.

The attempts by the authorities to cover their tracks in the aftermath?
That’s another story.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
19:43

Wolfers that is the best comment today, bar none.

GildasTheMonk
September 13, 2012 at 09:52

I think that is a very fair summation. I remember being caight up in a
crowd surging out of the old Wembley once, when I was a boy. I was lifted
off my feet and I was totally helpless and we were at the top of some
steps. If someone had gone over, we were all “gonners”. I remember there
was a terrible disaster like that in Scotland when I was a boy
too
Fortunately (and I remember it very well) the crowd was good
natured, sensible and well disciplined. Cries of “stop” rang out, and
everyone basically stood still. Good lads. Slowly the surge sorted itself
out.
Old football grounds were death traps. Look at the Bradford fire!
This was a disaster waiting to happen. Period. All of the above are true.
And because we have a culture of blame and because the police are quite
capable of it, instead odf simply saying this was a massive cock up all
round, we get this denial/blame game.

Lerxst September 14, 2012 at 20:58

Couldn’t agree more. Well said.

Thud September 12,
2012 at 18:55

There is enough information in todays report to satisfy anybody bothering
to read with an open mind that a great injustice was done. 116 falsified
police statements alone show just how the police viewed their culpability. As
a scouser a catholic and a red I am afflicted by three of your apparent
dislikes but unfortunately for your sterotypes i don’t drink much nor beat
women etc for which I can only appologise to you and your fanclub echochamber
denizens such as juliam.

Brian September
12, 2012 at 18:50

And because the victims of the Hallsville Junior School tragedy in
1940 obeyed the local council and waited in the basement for three days
for buses to evacuate them they too were responsible for their fates. Just
like the victims of the Bethnal Green Tube Station Disaster in 1943. Mistakes will
always happen, lessons learnt will always be forgotten (eg, the underground
multi-agency radios recommended after the Kings Cross fire were still not
available on 7/7) but what should never be tolerated is the default reaction
of the authorities (ie organisations that have power over citizens) to save
their own careers first and covering-up by changing statements is
unforgiveable. If the Police have the power to direct people in a particular
way on pain of arrest, they also have a duty of care to them.

Chris September 12, 2012 at 18:43

Anna – even if you can’t be persuaded to change your stereotypical opinions
of Scousers, could you at least acknowledge some of the facts that have now
been established after 23 years of enquiries rather than repeating the
scurrilous lies propagated by the police and some sections of the media?

The Taylor Report established long ago that the number of fans in Leppings
Lane never exceeded the official capacity and that the main gates were opened
by the police causing the crush in the middle section. You will now surely
accept the word of Kelvin McKenzie that his Sun headline should have read ‘The
Lies’ rather than ‘The Truth’. Perhaps you will also accept that relatives of
the 41 victims who, it is estimated, could have been saved have every right to
‘bash the police’. And the perhaps, as a lawyer you would agree that doctoring
116 witness statements to deflect blame from the South Yorkshire Police is a
disgrace.

I doubt very much whether you attended many football matches during the
1980s, but anyone who did will tell you that Hillsborough was a disaster
waiting to happen. As a campaigner yourself I would have thought that you’d
have admired the persistence and welcomed the vindication of campaigners such
as Trevor Hicks who watched his two teenage daughters die at Hillsborough. I
enjoy much of the writing on this site and particularly your contributions
Anna, but this time you’ve picked on the wrong target.

AgainsTTheWall
September 15, 2012 at 09:13

Opening gates does nt cause a crush. People behaving inconsiderately and
shoving without regard for the well-being of those in front causes a crush.
And it was nt the police doiug the shoving. Trevor Hicks (and all the other
bereaved campaigners) should have turned his ire on the people who did kill
his daughters – namely the thoughtless hooligans pushing without regard for
safety, many probably drunk and ticketless. By not doing so and instead
castigating those who were trying to assist rather than the perpetrators, he
has demonstrated that queer tribal Scouse solidarity that Anna alludes to.
And in doing so he has betrayed his daughters

JuliaM September
12, 2012 at 18:24

While I was finding that link for Saul re: ticketless fans, I was also
reminded of this incident:

http://thylacosmilus.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/uk-today-mawkish-sentimentality-r-us.html

There’s an industry that’s grown up around this event, one that seeks to
keep it going and stoke the outrage. This won’t be the end of it, no matter
what.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 18:41

It’s Brian Clough not Bryan Clough

(Oh, /doublefacepalm !)

But well done for mentioning Jeremy Kyle.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 18:47

With regard to your link to Kenneth Oxford, it is revealed today that
numerous police officers statements were falsified.

JuliaM September 13, 2012 at 05:46

Oh, indeed, forgetting the exact spelling of some pigskin-kicker
trainer is exactly the same as mangling our mother tongue! Yes,
Saul, you got me there…

Saul September 13, 2012 at 10:46

Good of you to admit it. There now, that wasn’t hard was it.

Zanshin September 12, 2012 at 18:04

” I will not take part in a fashionable ‘bash the police’. ”

I “bash the police” on a regular basis, but I’ve never been fashionable –
ask my wife.
All my comments about these smug, self-righteous numpties are
based on my observations and personal experience. When I was younger I joined
the Scouts, went to church, respected my elders, and policemen were there to
give directions and tell you the correct time.
Since then I know better,
and am constantly amazed by the “free pass” that the police get all the time.
The killings the cover ups, the blatant lies, the corruption that is extant
etc, ad nauseum, without a blink of surprise from those “middle England” Daily
Mail reader taxpayers. Apparently it’s alright to kill drunks, shoot innocent
tradesmen dead and lie in court to get innocent people put in prison – just so
long as it’s NIMBY or doesn’t affect my income or family.
There are none so
blind as those who won’t see.

Frankie September 12, 2012 at 22:00

@Zanshin: ‘…I “bash the police” on a regular basis’ but you are probably
the first to ring ’999′ when you have a problem so… isn’t that somewhat
inconsistent at least? Even the Hillsborough Families don’t blame the rank
and file officers and applaud them for their attempts that day, along with
everyone else that did their best.

Zanshin September 13, 2012 at 18:26

@Frankie – Actually I don’t when I have a problem, though will do if
there is something amiss for someone else.
After my wife was mugged and
beaten I asked the police where they were when this happened. Their reply
” Watch it or I’ll arrest you”, in my own house! The police have an
institutional default position in all things,and could give a damn about
those they arrest (guilty or not) the effect on their families or future
life. They need taking down more than a few pegs , and as the corruption
demonstrated shows, as rapidly as possible.

Zanshin September 12, 2012 at 17:41

And yet again the police have been shown to be so corrupt that you can
smell them miles away. Changing notes to show themselves as whiter than white,
whilst slinging mud at the fans and those that died. They are truly
sickening.
The ambulance service failed and potentially 41 people may have
survived if they could have got their act together. They didn’t, but that was
due to procedural problems and certainly nothing to do with corruption from
the highest levels and down.

Leo September 12, 2012 at 17:52

You are wasting your time mate. Obviously, she knows better than the
panel that has studied this for the last 2 years. And the 116 changed police
statements don’t count in this person’s bizare little world. I’m off. I need
a shower.

Frankie September 12, 2012 at 21:55

@Leo: I thought you’d already gone!

Allan Lee September 12, 2012 at 17:16

Oh dear. I don’t know where to begin. Sadly, it would probably be better
not to even get started and give you the attention you are looking for. If I
was to tell the hurt of living for the last 23 years with this sort of hatred,
on top of losing innocent family members in a tragedy they didn’t cause, I’d
only be made out to be part of the enevitable “tsunami of rage and hatred.”

I left Liverpool, and school, 40 years ago at the age of 15. Being from a
very large, poor Protestant family, I had to leave simply to find work.
Despite missing my home, family and people terribly, I’ve stayed away because
I’ve never been unemployed. It’s been hard, but it has give me the means to
put my own 4 children through University. Sadly though, that means I’ve lived
the last 40 years of my life being called a thief, a victim, and far worse by
people like you and you’re uneducated sychopantic readers. But for your
education, I gave up going to pubs many years ago, as I’ve been beaten up in,
or outside, them on quite a few occasions simply because of how I speak.

It seems you have no experience of this as you don’t live in this country,
but, take it from a voice of experience, the only place I’m not treated like
that in this country is in Liverpool. Maybe that’s why many of us choose not
to leave, miss it so badly while we are away, and end up going back there as
often as we can. I know I’ll one day retire there, if I’m ever allowed to
retire and my pension hasn’t been stolen by “The Man.” Yes. I love Liverpool,
and I find the great majority of people from there are very nice indeed. Pity,
you seem so full of self loathing. I wouldn’t like to be you.

In fact, I find you to an absolute disgrace and total embarrassment. I
don’t know how you sleep, but obviously it’s quite well, with a self
satisfied, smug smirk on your face.
A fully paid up member of the Great
Tsunmai of rage and hatred.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
17:23

Strange. I lived in England until a few years ago, and have never been
beaten up for coming from Liverpool, in fact have remained great friends
with a number of other expat Liverpudlians who got out for the same reason I
did. All delightful people. Would I go back to live in Scotland Road? You
must be joking. I doubt you would either.

Leo September 12, 2012 at 17:48

I’m not from Scotland Road. Although, I like it there. I like the
people there and I’d have no problem living there. I would be disgusted if
you had been beaten up in England, but then I very much doubt you speak
Scouse and you seem to be female. A bigoted one without much compassion,
but female all the same. And I can only say, I’ve never really raised as
much as my voice to a woman, let alone my hands in some drunken stupor.
Mind you, as you said, you’ve never been hit, either. Shame you seem to
think all Liverpool women are beaten as a matter of course. I know my
Bootle born wife would chop my fingers off. But, as you are so obviously
entrenched in them biggotted views, I’ll leave that at this now. As I have
no real desire to converse with you, or discuss your disgraceful opinions.
As I said, I wouldn’t like to be you. It can’t be very nice. Bye now.
Enjoy your bile. I’m sure it will eventually get you the sort of reply
that you will use as vindication for degrading 96 innocent people, their
families, their loved ones and practically the entire population of a
fantastic and friendly city.

Lerxst
September 14, 2012 at 20:50

“degrading 96 innocent people”

This is one thing that irritates me about the way certain people from
Liverpool portray the reporting of Hillsborough. Leaving aside whether
the reports were accurate, the fans who have been attacked over the
years are those who allegedly turned up late, drunk, and ticketless. The
ones who, as such, contributed to the crush and subsequent deaths. They
are not, and never have been, the innocent fans who were on the
receiving end, crushed as a result of the surging crowd. It is simply
nonsense on stilts to claim that by condemning one group, you are
degrading the other.

JuliaM September
12, 2012 at 18:15

“…people like you and you’re uneducated sychopantic
readers….”

Oh, /doublefacepalm !

Leo September 12, 2012 at 18:32

I am uneducated. I make no bones about that. I come from a very poor
background in inner city Liverpool. I had to leave school at 15 years of
age, after recieving very little in the way of an education. But after all
I had say, I think your pointing out spelling mistakes says a whole lot
more about you than it does about me. There again, you people are so super
clever that you know, despite all the evidence, and the learned people who
studied it, including a Tory Prime Minister, that it was really them
drunken, wife beating, dole claiming scousers.
I’m glad I’m not that
clever.

Thud September 12, 2012 at 19:00

Leo. none of us are as smart as juliam and of course grammar mistakes
as us dumb scousers should know precludes one from haveing valid
opinions, but spelling mistakes aside I’ll stick with you on this
one.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
18:58

Beautiful!

Leo September 12, 2012 at 19:16

I could write an essay, no doubt, full of bad grammar and spelling,
about the people I personally lost at Hillsborough. One of them now has
a son, who he never seen, who is a year older than his deceased father.
In fact, I could write a quite sickening story of how I was beaten up
just a month ago by security guards, and called a “Scouse bastard. It
happened a day after I buried my mother, and I was under the doctor
suffering from a suspected stroke. I’m 56. My assailaints where fit
young men in their 30′s.

We all have annocdotal evidence and stories. But apparently, this
Anna person is a lawyer. Well, I couldn’t even get a lawyer to listen to
me, never mind act on my behalf. As for the police, their advice was,
“To just forget it.” The problem is, you will never change this sort of
bigotry, especially in the so called educated. Sadly, they have no
shame, either…. “Beautiful,” what is that supposed to mean?

Oh well, one day this sort of thing will be prosecuted under the hate
crime tag. Sadly though, people like myself are just the DFS sofa
brigade and count for nothing. It couldn’t happen to a Dolphin. What a
shameful disgusting little corner of hatred, prejudice and bigotry this
is. Please feel free to ridicule my spelling and grammar. It will only
help anyone with an ounce of decency in them to see right through this
bile. You really should hang your heads in shame.

Leo September 12, 2012 at 19:55

Well, I really am off now as there is no point in trying to combat
this level of ignorance and bigotry. It’s really quite amazing. I
could understand it if it came from drunken football hooligans on
their way home to beat their wives and flop down on their DFS sofas
next to the babies they’d neglected and starved with their drinking.
But this is from supposedly educated people. Oh dear, thank god, I’m
one of the great unwashed. I really couldn’t look myself in the face,
if I was one of this ilk.

I have just dropped my 22 year old son off at hospital this
morning. He went to the doctors time and time again, and was
constantly told there was nothing wrong with him. One even said, “You
just need to get your spark back.” Despite them doing the same thing
to me over ten years ago, telling me there was nothing wrong with my
father, only for him to die within a week, to my ever lasting shame, I
believed them. I knew no other way. To working class Scousers of my
age and background, the doctor, the priest, the vicar, were to be
revered and never questioned. My cap doffing days are over. I just
hope they haven’t came too late to help my son, who is now on dialysis
and waiting for a kidney transplant, just because our professional
betters couldn’t be arsed examining him properly.

Some of you in here need to take a long hard look at yourselves. No
doubt, it would make no difference, as despite 23 years of hurt
caused, “Evidence” damned and finally proof and exhoneration, you know
far better about us than we do about ourselves. Shame on you,
indeed.

No more
September 13, 2012 at 10:38

Is that really your idea of beauty? How shallow your life must
be.

Leo, your comments are the sanest words on this thread. Thankfully,
building a life away from Liverpool doesn’t automatically turn one into
a bigot. I climbed the same ‘ladder’ these people did, probably even
reaching a higher rung. I’m almost ashamed to have any kind of
association with them, but console myself that none of their shameful
prejudice is a result of their education. Perhaps they’re just bad
people.

This will be my only post here. I never want to see this page
again.

ramtops
September 13, 2012 at 21:34

That comment says a lot about you, Anna. I generally enjoy your
rumblings, but I think this post was disgusting.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 15:18

It is being reported that Kelvin Mackenzie is now saying his notorious Sun
headline, “The Truth” should in fact have been “The Lies”

Saul September 12, 2012 at 15:47

Here it is….

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-09-12/kelvin-mckenzie-offers-profuse-apologies-over-hillsborough/

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
15:52

No less than I expected, ditto Cameron’s apology.
The point of that
post, which you do seem to have missed, is that that particular
sub-culture of Liverpool would never have been satisfied with anything
less, regardless of what the ‘truth’ was. The truth is as they see it, and
anything which disagrees with how they see it is automatically lies.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 16:01

Oh dear, I don’t think I have missed the point at all. Whatever axe
you have to grind with the “sub culture” of Liverpool is yours to swing
as you see fit. However, when it comes to your use of events at
Hillsborough to reinforce them, they should now be taken out.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
16:49

Right, I get it now. All those fans without tickets were stone cold
sober, proceeding in an orderly fashion to the seats they didn’t have,
when they were beset by evil policemen deliberately opening the wrong
gate, and then proceeding to ignore their pleas for help in a
malicious manner. No one in authority did their best, they were
wantonly disrespectful of these innocent fans needs and should be
punished accordingly. Pardon me for assuming that the casual factors
left out might have been some malign inclination of the fans acting as
those from that sub-culture are wont to do but obviously not in this
case. Have I got it now?

Frankie
September 12, 2012 at 21:40

Anna is dead on accurate in this article… It just is not possible –
and I have attended multiple Liverpool and other football matches –
that the fans were all stone cold sober, had tickets and were entirely
innocent of blame in all this.

She is likewise dead on accurate about the culture in Liverpool –
say what you like Saul, but if you are honest about it you know that
in this article Anna has captured the mental processes of the average
‘Scouser’ to a nicety.

The outcome of this enquiry was never likely to be anything else.
Having said that, it is likewise indefensible if lawyers, employed by
South Yorkshire Police altered witness testimony and others managed to
shift the blame entirely on to the fans. Many mistakes were made on
all sides, but I do not think for a moment that the police or the
ambulance services – those ‘boots on the ground’ did anything less
than their best when they realised that a tragedy was happening right
in front of their eyes.

I cannot speak for the senior officers, those charged with
controlling events. Perhaps they acted incorrectly, panicked even, but
I am equally sure that no one got out of bed that fateful morning with
the intention of killing 96 people, even if they were Liverpudlians.
It was a tragedy, a series of events that culminated in an awful
event, and it is entirely possible that some people decided that they
would evade blame and blame the dead.

There are no winners today, but in some regards, the truth is just
as far away as it was prior to the publishing of this report.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 14:48

It would appear that you have based your post on things that were taken to
be facts prior to today’s revelations. Perhaps once the dust has settled and
the report has been fully appraised, in light of what has come out today, then
you may come back and rethink your views.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
14:54

Interesting. If there are, as you say, details in the report that would
change my mind – why didn’t they change the Labour Minister, Jack Straw’s
mind? He had access to the full report ten years ago. Why would a Labour
government hide details like that?

Saul September 12, 2012 at 15:04

Come on Anna, you know better than that, it doesn’t matter which party
is in power when it comes to hiding things from the public eye. I’m not
saying it would change your views on people from Liverpool, just that
finally we may be getting the whole truth about what happened that day at
Hillsborough Stadium.

Ed Butt September 13, 2012 at 19:13

Saul, the truth is the game should never have been played at that
ground.

Henry Crun
September 15, 2012 at 13:59

Anna, you assume Jack Straw has balls…

Wigner’s Friend
September 12, 2012 at 14:32

I note that at least 2 scousers interviewed on the BBC today blamed the
tragedy and/or cover up on Mrs Thatcher. The mind boggles! Perhaps they think
that she was “The Man”.

JuliaM September
12, 2012 at 16:29

Well, Gawd bless ‘er, she’s more of a man than the current party
leader!

Ed Butt September 13, 2012 at 18:54

Listening to coverage on North West News I was not surprised when
lisdtening to scousers talkingh about the verdict to hear them freely
using the C word … compensation.

Ian T

Dave September 14, 2012 at 15:11

Maggie Maggie Maggie DIE DIE DIE

Wigner’s
Friend September 16, 2012 at
09:14

Inspired debate?

Martin September 12, 2012 at 13:56

You really are the most insidious shill . How much does the man pay you now
you’ve pulled up the ladder. You make me physically sick .

JuliaM September
12, 2012 at 14:09

It’s that ‘man’ again! He sure does get around…

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
14:16

The ladder I climbed is still available to anyone who cares to use it
thank-you.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 13:33

If we are going to use this as a stick to bash the Catholic church, then it
may be worth noting that traditionally it is Everton who are the Catholic club
and Liverpool Protestant. That is not to say all supporters are exclusively of
either religion.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 13:05

I have been attending football grounds for over 45 yrs and I’m afraid you
couldn’t be more wrong. Hillsborough was a disaster that had been waiting to
happen for many years. Once a small minority of hooligans brought about heavy
handed policing and the penning of fans in enclosures with no way out, then it
was inevitable that such a tragedy would occur.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 12:39

I think you are missing the point here. The Taylor report was put in place
to find out what happened and to prevent any future occurences. Without the
full facts this is not possible.

amfortas September 12, 2012 at 13:03

Whilest the crux of the Hillsborough matter might be as said, this
continual denigration of Catholics is quite over the top. I am a Catholic
and not the best one either, but the very idea that ‘being Catholic’ means
having sex with one’s sister is just cheap calumny. I am counted in with the
vast majority of Catholics who lead a fairly moral life; not too preachy and
not too forgiving either, on myself or anyone else who does outrageous
things.

Yes, I know all the stories of priests abusing children. They are about
in the same proportion as IBM employees and British Aerospace ones too, and
far fewer, proportionally, than Government ‘Care’ ‘workers’. No-one goes
after Government Ministers like they do Church Ministers. No Heads of
Departments heads roll over the countless children abused in ‘Care’. The
Catholic Church has had a right royal going over for the sins of commission
and ommission of its few evil employees but where is the outrage against the
Government people who farmed the kiddies out to Church ‘care’ in the first
place? Where are the politicians serving time and noted on the sex offenders
register? Where are the ‘supervisors’ taking the taxpayers’ money and doing
sod-all to provide proper care?

The numbers of cases of teachers sexually abusing children well outnumber
priests accused, but where are the calls from the Geoffrey Robertson talking
head lawyer sorts for the Prime Ministers to be arrested as was suggested
for the Pope? When do we get to see the Minister of Education hauled into
the dock when a teacher rapes a young boy? Instead we see the lad having to
pay child support to his teacher for the child she has, while a famous
feminist writer complains that a Professor touched her knee during a
tutorial 30 years previously and ruins his reputation. Was the University
Vice Chancellor hauled into court? Class actions against an organisation for
the sins of an employee cause hysterical accusations amid the self-indulgent
and deliberate ‘blaming’ in order to get a benefit that we see in the same
sort of demanding thumb-suckers that collapsed the stand at the footy
match.

Gratuitous slurs against Catholics in an article about the stupidity of
the lower types of scousers is not on, Anna. I am surprised at you. Are all
scousers catholic? Is every scouser a yob and a grifter, a faux-victim and
drunken thug? Crikey, even Sodom was given a chance to find one or two
decent folk.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
13:09

‘being Catholic’ means having sex with one’s sister

Come now amfortas – where have I said that?

I have said that the prevailing methodology in Liverpool catholicism is
that you can do anything – providing you are on parade Sunday morning
confessing and knitting bleeding novenas. Including beating your wife up
and having sex with you sister. They don’t all do that, some of them
progress to having sex with other peoples sisters.

amfortas
September 12, 2012 at 13:18

That is not good enough, Anna. “….prevailing Catholic Church
methodology which is happy to overlook fornication with your younger
sister…”. I can assure you that it is not overlooked, let alone happily
whatever one does afterwards. Even a Holy cigarette is insufficient. Are
you limiting it just to Liverpool? I would like to see your evidence for
either limited or the general.

Come along now, be a nice gentlewoman.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
13:24

Of course I am limiting it just to Liverpool, that was the point of
the article, that there are areas of Liverpool that have a sub-culture
that is not understood elsewhere.
On the subject of sister abuse, I
had the misfortune to be personally aware of two women with daughters
who had been abused within the family – both had had to move out of
the area to avoid retribution from within the family for having gone
to the police over the matter. The general consensus was that the men
concerned had seen their priest, were now innocent in the eyes of God
and how dare they call in the police.
You wish to take this as a
slur on all Catholics? It isn’t. At the risk of repeating myself, that
is the point of the entire article – these people don’t see things the
same way as outsiders do.

amfortas September 12, 2012 at 13:59

I will accept that Anna, but only because you are standing by the
Pint-pull. Our first arguement deserves a raised glass to
Forgiveness. (And a sound thrashing for miscreants who treat the
Confessional as an excuse)

Dr
Cromarty September 12, 2012 at
13:49

Orangeism is big in Liverpool. Any data on its effect on Scouse
behaviour. Or are they ALL child-molesting Tims?

Elena
‘andcart September 12, 2012 at
20:28

Snort. You owe me a keyboard for that, Anna. Fortunately it was only
tea and not the last of the Gin.

ANNASDADSADEVIANT September 13, 2012 at 13:29

Anna ,where you buggered from a young age by your father to be so
bitter,you can get help for being abused by your father?????

Elena
‘andcart September 13, 2012 at
14:31

You would know about that, would you? Why say such a thing
otherwise? Most people have no idea of what you are talking about.

Lerxst September 14, 2012 at 20:33

There may well be more teachers abusing children, but I’m not aware
that the Department for Education has been shown to have spent decades
knowingly and systematically helping them to evade the law, escape
punishment, and indeed just allowing them to move to new areas to carry on
their habits.

JuliaM September
12, 2012 at 14:11

We all know what happened, Saul, and the paperwork that’s come out now
doesn’t help with preventing future occurrences one little bit, does it? So
far, all it seems to prove is that the police did a bit of spin to spare
their blushes. Think they wouldn’t do the same thing today, then?

Saul September 12, 2012 at 14:18

Julia that is just the point. We don’t know what happened, just some of
it. After a tragedy like this things have to be put in place to try and
prevent it happening again. Without all the facts this is a hampered
process. I am trained in “Tap Root investigation” it is paramount that all
causal factors are included.

JuliaM September 12, 2012 at 16:28

But ‘all causal factors’ will not be included! The ‘causal factors’
that will be left out are those Anna has already alluded to!

Saul September 12, 2012 at 16:49

I admire your loyalty to Anna, but in this particular case I think
both she and yourself are wrong. Using the events at Hillsborough to
reinforce her view are in my opinion out of order.

I have said in the past here that some posts create the comments
and reaction that is akin to throwing live chickens into a pool full
of hungry crocodiles. It seems most of the usual suspects are
conspicuously absent today. Perhaps it would be better to stick to the
usual fare of, Jeremy Kyle, DFS sofas and benefit scroungers.

Anna Raccoon September 12, 2012 at 16:52

I think not Saul, I think I will stick to my usual fare of not
being afraid to express my opinion on whatever I want.
I am not
using the events at Hillsborough to reinforce my point of view.
I
am using my personal knowledge of some parts of Liverpool to express
my view that it is unlikely that anything less than a grovelling
apology will be accepted – regardless of the truth.

Saul
September 12, 2012 at 17:08

Of course you express your opinion on anything you wish, I
merely think that using analogies based on events at Hillsborough
was out of order.You refer to drunken fans urinating on an
ambulance man. The lies about the tragedy have been exposed today
and about time too. I am only expressing my opinion as well.

Anna Raccoon September 12, 2012 at 17:17

You are welcome to express your opinion Saul, as you well
know, that is the whole point of this site. I was reacting to
your suggestion that I limit expressing my opinion in favour of
‘the usual fare of DFS sofas and benefit scroungers’.
I
happen to have strong views on my birthplace and the legacy of
Tony Bland. Something that is being forgotten today.

Saul
September 12, 2012 at 17:23

Of course you do and Tony Bland is a fine example. I merely
wanted to say that if you want to attack the sub culture in
this country that you use the examples I mentioned. I know
that there are many fine posts on this site that are far
removed from this subject. Would you look at all of the
evidence that has materialised today and possibly write a post
on that?

Anna Raccoon September 12, 2012 at 17:24

I might consider it if the ‘causal factors’ were
included. I will not take part in a fashionable ‘bash the
police’.

Anna Raccoon September 12, 2012 at 16:54

Nor am I aware that any post here has ever featured Jeremy Kyle.
Do correct me if I’m wrong.

JuliaM September 12, 2012 at 18:13

It’s not a question of ‘loyalty to Anna’ at all, it’s a question of
loyalty to the real truth, which is that no-one came out of that day
very well, and yet the opprobrium is falling only on the police who
did what any large state organisation does, and a national
newspaper which printed – not for the first time! – the story it
wanted to be true…

Henry Crun
September 14, 2012 at 12:21

I’m pretty sure the police today would engage in even more
arse-covering than SYP did in the aftermath of Hillsborough. As a season
ticket holder, I see first hand the police’s attitude towards the football
fan – they appear to regard us a untermensch.

I’m not suggesting for one moment that there isn’t any blame to be laid
at the feet of some Liverpool fans there that day. But we now know that
not only did SYP handle the situation in a cack-handed manner both on the
day and afterwards, but the the ambulance service was either undermanned
or completely incapable to deal with the injuries sustained. That 41
people could possibly have been moved to hospital and may have survived is
just unforgiveable. Compare and contrast with the fire in the stands at
Bradford.

Robert the
Biker September 13, 2012 at 09:07

No, the Taylor report, like the bloody sunday inquiry, was put in place
to get the ‘right’ result; it’s pathetic that they don’t even trouble to
hide this anymore.

Engineer September 12, 2012 at 11:59

All you write is true, Anna. My family has connections to Liverpool going
back more than a century, and I’ve had the dubious pleasure of working
alongside Scousers – the better sort thankfully, but even they had vestiges of
the tribal characteristics. I admire Scouse humour, but not always Scouse
integrity. The problem is that Liverpool retains the losers. The Scousers with
get-up-and-go have all got up and gone. The ones still there are like children
– “It’s not fair”, “It wasn’t me”, “Not our fault”, “Somebody should sort
it”.

Hillsborough was a tragedy. Of that there is no doubt. But given the state
of football in the 1980s, it was a tragedy waiting to happen. It could have
happened, in similar fashion, in any number of stadiums of the day, involving
any number of clubs. We seem to have forgotten about the prevailing culture of
hooliganism (and worse) that pervaded football at the time. Kelvin Mackenzie
and The Sun made themselves seriously unpopular by basically telling it how it
was, albeit their reporting of the tragedy was tasteless and an ill-timed
thing to do. I am quite sure that there was more than a grain of truth in many
of the things The Sun printed, and sometimes, the truth hurts. I suspect that
the Cabinet minutes will reflect that, to some extent.

Could it happen again? Unlikely. Football hooliganism still exists, but to
a much lesser extent, and is tolerated far less. Policing is more
sophisticated, and stewarding more extensive. Maybe that should be
Hillsborough’s legacy?

JuliaM September
12, 2012 at 14:21

“I am quite sure that there was more than a grain of truth in many of
the things The Sun printed,…”

Well, either that, or this was the only non-violent, sober as a judge
football crowd in history!

Saul September 12, 2012 at 14:27

Don’t be silly, the vast majority of football crowds are made up of non
violent sober people.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
14:30

Entire football crowds yes – but in that case they were referring to
fans who arrived late without tickets. Why were they late? Stayed in the
pub too long? Why didn’t they have tickets?

Saul September 12, 2012 at 14:42

This is one of the points being contested. Where there in fact
large amounts of ticketless fans?

JuliaM September 12, 2012 at 18:21

Sir Kenneth Oxford seemed to think so:

http://thylacosmilus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/liverpudlian-its-new-black.html

Duncan
McAusland September 14, 2012 at
10:05

Anna
Very much agree. There is no simple absolution for the
Scoues brigade just because others are proven to have been more
culpable than they once admitted – not even if they covered their
tracks, lied and tried to shift the blame.
hope you have read Wardy
at the Slog. Thoughts not far from your own.
http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/hillsborough-herewith-probably-the-most-unpopular-post-on-the-net-today/#comments
Scousers?
I’m just a neutral Yorkshire rugby league fan.

Single Acts of
Tyranny September 14, 2012 at
16:04

You have clearly never been to a Cardiff City home game.

DunxMcAbsolution September 14, 2012 at 16:15

I don’t think all the Brains in Cardiff could possibly induce me to
a Cardiff game , Single.

Dr Cromarty September 12, 2012 at 11:51

Sad day. You’ll never hear comments like these on the BBC as the only
acceptable response is pious deference to outraged Scousers. BTW Anna, prepare
yourself for a tsunami of rage and hatred. Oh, and don’t mention Heysel.

BTW as a historical point, was this the point at which Britons started
laying down roadside shrines (scarves, football shirts, teddybears, candles,
flowers), a decade before Diana?

Jabba the Cat September 13, 2012 at 18:22

Interesting post over at the Commentator from a chap with the handle
JoeThorpe1963, which I take the liberty of reproducing in full:

“Those that died were not drunken thugs but those that caused their
deaths were Drunken Liverpudlians that arrived en mass without tickets &
stormed the entrances as kick off approached. I was there I came in from the
Liverpool end, I was pestered for tickets from Liverpudlians pouring out of
the pubs asking for spares. Of course the culprits then scarperred after the
carnage & were not breathalysed. Quite why the dead would have their
blood tested for Alcohol is pointless, they were there on time with their
tickets. Its not a coincidence that death & destruction followed
Liverpool during these terrible times. People from Liverpool caused these
deaths & no one else, we live in a society where we have to blame
authority every time for any issue in our lives. The police should have told
it as it was at the time & not tried to find excuses for drunken scum
from Liverpool. Why were we never asked to write a witness statement? If it
had been a fatal car crash I would have been asked to give evidence? If this
is ever reopened we should all be asked for a written statement although I
suspect like on the day there would be far more contributions made than
those who on the day had tickets!”

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1644/pmqs_a_pointless_win_for_the_pm

Penseivat September 12, 2012 at 11:48

Still in the Army (in Germany) when the Hillsbrough incident happened.
Quite a few Liverpudlians, plus some Birkenhead lads and a couple of blokes
from Cheshire put the blame ‘fairly’ and squarely on the heads of anyone in
authority who was there that day, plus anyone in authority who had passed by
the stadium in the previous 6 months, or had even thought about it. It
resulted in some Sheffield lads being beaten up, plus some brave Germans who
tried to come to their aid. And why not? After all, the Germans did bomb the
chip shops in Liverpool! No one put any blame on the Liverpool fans, drunk or
sober, who had turned up at an all-ticket match, without a ticket, and
demanded entry. A thought provoking article, Anna, which will no doubt bear no
similarity to the offical version which will crucify several named people,
lead to a massive compensation claim against the Government (for allowing
football to take place in Sheffield), the Ambulance Service (for not saving
the lives of more than they did, despite being obstructed by those they were
trying to help), the (named) stewards who failed to stand their ground when
faced with a horde of drunk and sober Scousers claiming something for free
and, of course, the Police authority of the officers in charge who ordered the
opening of a gate to try and alleviate the mass of bodies trying to force a
way in.
A sad day for sport in general, football in particular, but mainly
the families and friends of those who died because some idiots wanted for free
what others were willing to pay for.

Robert the Biker
September 12, 2012 at 11:28

I’ve worked with a couple, and found that if you can only keep them away
from Liverpool, the average scouser of my aquaintance was a decent
bloke.
It was just letting them go ‘back home’ tended to drag them down to
the common level.
Nice enough town in parts though, I loved visiting the
Albert Docks after the refurbishment and seeing the Liver Building up close
(this was a visit, I’m a Lancashire Lad me)

Unity September
12, 2012 at 10:41

Off they go, half to the Kop, half to Anfield

Sorry? Half to Goodison Park, surely, unless that’s Freudian admission of
which half you belong.

Anna
Raccoon September 12, 2012 at
10:42

Whoops! You’re right, very Freudian!

amfortas September 12, 2012 at 10:34

I’m a Coventry Kid, meself. You can tell from the shamrock in me turban.
Not that I have lived there since my late teens when I took the best road, as
they called it back then; the one that leads out. I went back some years ago
after 40 odd years away only to find that what the Luftwaffe started, the
Coventry City Council had finished. I ought to have given it a wide berth and
kept my pristine memories of bomb craters where houses had been. I would not
go back to Liverpool were I a scouser.

Saul September 12, 2012 at 17:29

I’m not asking you to bash the police, just to take a look at all of the
new evidence that came out today. The theme of your post would be yours to
decide.

Greg Tingey September 16, 2012 at 09:28

Just heard the ONLY ambulance driver who made it on to the pitch that day
(BBC radio4 Sunday morning) & how his mates (other ambulance drivers) were
forbidden to come on to the pitch by the police, and the police putting
pressure on the ambulance services.

I suggest all of you go to “listen again” on the BBC site & give it a
try.

Anna R.
Your prejudice against your place of birth shames you in it’s
vicious spite.
Probably, the worst thing that happened to Liverpool was
Derek Hatton ……

Louise September
17, 2012 at 14:30

Who likes their home town?