You Can’t Go Back, Mr Union Jack!
The political and economic crisis in Europe has ignited a spark of doubt in the European Union project across The Old Continent.
The United Kingdom always leads the crowd when those kind of doubts come to the surface. It’s no secret that the British are not crazy about European integration and that their society has issues in developing the European sub identity of this great nation. That’s not something unexpected because in my part of Europe they are known as cocky little puritans who see themselves on a pedestal and the rest of us as their subordinates, so it would be illusory to assume that they would make a real sacrifice for this project to work.
Britain is not part of the EU because it thinks it belongs there but because it needs the EU. That’s something the Brits will never admit, either to themselves or to others.
The British have been constantly losing their power and geopolitical influence for decades, but they sure can’t get over it.
Today’s Britain has lost its importance and plays a secondary role in the global politics, far behind the United States, China, Russia and the Berlin-Paris axis which carries the European Union. The reasons for such a situation are not just historical but also economic and political. United Kingdom wasn’t subordinated to the European project from the start and, metaphorically speaking, it’s more like a Trojan horse of the United Europe than anything else. Brits pursue exclusively their own interests trying to limit German influence on Europe in every possible way. That’s just not the way to build the strong Europe and there is no strong Britain without a stable Europe.
Although many Brits would like to move away from those beyond their shores I reckon it’s not even an option for British politicians. And if Britain’s departure is ever going to happen, it surely won’t while David Cameron and the Tories are at the helm. The best party to compare Cameron and his Conservative Party with is definitely our HDZ (Croatian Democratic Union). From their voters’ perspective, once they realise it, they are just a bunch of frauds with no beliefs or ideology, pragmatic opportunists who protect national sovereignty and traditional values only by mouth. Just like former Croatian Prime Minister Ivo Sanader, one who also fits the above-mentioned characteristics, but couldn’t match deceased Franjo Tudjman at the helm of the HDZ nor the country, David Cameron can’t match Margaret Thatcher. His and William Hague’s “euro scepticism” is somewhere near Delboy Trotter’s sophistication, pretty much non-existent or just imaginary. On the other hand, Delboy is an undisputed legend and these two are, just like the former Croatian Prime Minister, politicians led by publicity, marketing, polls, opinion makers’ words and apparently ruled by the media and, eventually, the EU itself.
In the future, by my predictions, Britain won’t be even one inch farther from Brussels than it is at the moment. It can just be closer. Despite the Conservatives’ affection for the United States, as America will progressively lose its power and global influence, Britain will bring itself closer to Berlin and Moscow. Making friends in Russia has already taken place for quite some time now and strengthening the bonds with Berlin is also inevitable if London wants to retain influence on global politics. But first, the British must resolve some of their inner issues, issues concerning pride and facing the reality. If you put populism and the Royal Wedding aside, there’s nothing left of the mighty British Empire. Decade by decade it’s getting smaller and less influential although the cockiness is still there.
But you can’t go back Mr. Union Jack, there’s no Empire any more, there’s no British supremacy, we entered the new Era in which either you’ll be a team player or you’ll go down to Third Division.
Lose your cockiness or your significance. The choice is all yours.
Edited by Anna to make it easier to read – for English is not Donatus’ first language.
(Interesting to see how others see us, is it not?)
October 6, 2011 at 22:13
-
“… in my part of Europe they are known as cocky little puritans who see
themselves on a pedestal and the rest of us as their subordinates
…”
………………………
I think it’s fair that Donatus tells us we “are known as cocky” – we
probably are; I’d query whether the word ‘puritans’ is accurate and I’d
question whether we’d be able to see the ‘pedestal’ over our enormous
chip’n’beer bellies; I might challenge the assertion that ‘we’ see “the rest
of us as their subordinates” but I’ve found it refreshing to be told all of
the above.
I hope it hasn’t been overlooked, though, that today’s Britain is surely as
multi-racial a society as any other in Europe and, speaking as a white,
Anglo-Saxon, middle-aged, middle-class, thick-middled Briton, I am very happy
to have seen that happen peacefully in my lifetime. When I was a teenager I
used to catch the Saturday bus into the county town and spend my saved-up
pocket-money in Chelsea Girl, Dolcis or Boots and then, in the early ’70s, I
would often find that I couldn’t get to Boots because there was a huge and
rolling street-fight going on between skinheads and West Indian youth or, more
often actually, between West Indian youth and Asian youth. Timid shoppers such
as I fled and left them to their bloody combat. Now my own daughter gets the
bus into the same county town and she can go about her pocket-money spree
without a racial confrontation in sight. It simply doesn’t happen there
anymore. This leads me to believe that, while we Britons may be described as
‘cocky’, it isn’t our first instinct to reach for weaponry on the road to
civil war.
Incidentally, my children were infants during the civil war in the then
Yugoslavia and as I watched the news every night it chilled me to the bone
when I thought of trying to get my babies out of such a conflict; firstly I
knew my baby daughter would never, ever, ever have kept quiet if we’d been
hiding in a barn and secondly I knew that I could never have carried my
children over the border and into another country: we live on an island.
Anyway. I was born and bred in England but I am happier to be British. My
husband is half Dutch. My immediate family includes Spanish and Icelandic
sisters-in-law and sprogs thereof. This little band of cocky provincial Brits
is doing as much as it can to mix up the Home Counties’ gene pool within the
generation at its disposal.
Politics is a different matter. The only times I’ve been really stirred by
EU politics have been when a certain Peter Mandeljoy of Paypacket-upon-Pension
has slithered, gold-plated, from one lucrative EU post to another before
securing the position of Whisperer from Backstage to the PM.
So I may be cocky. I certainly can’t see the pedastel because my bust and
my midriff stick out too far and I might overbalance if I try to look down.
Puritan I am not – I drink and smoke and eat chips and I don’t go to church. I
don’t think I could see anyone as my subordinate because I work and during the
hours I’m not at work I try to keep a house free of disease but I appear to be
everyone else’s subordinate.
I was going to sign off with the words of Annie Hall (“Laah-di-dah”) but I
think Forrest Gump is more apt.
So: “And that’s about all I have to say on that.”
-
October 6, 2011 at 16:43
-
^
Some support, for which thanks. The British relationship with Europe is
essentially that of referee. We’ve always had the smallest standing army and
the largest (or at least the best) navy, for reasons which do not need
explaining. Our forces have, traditionally, always been defensive.
And I didn’t say ‘warrior’; I said ‘mercenary’.
- October 6, 2011 at 13:16
-
“Cocky little puritans”…………..that is just the best description I have heard
for a long time. It’s true. Compared to the Dutch , French and Germans the
British are the prudes of Europe, despite the utter rubbish printed in the MSM
about our wicked ways and decadent society.
Germany used to be an ally. and let’s face it they never declared war on
the UK. We declared war on them, twice! Of course we should be friends, but
what this Johnny foreigner in Croatia forgets is that we cocky little puritans
are an island race and nation and therefore totally suspicious of continentals
to the point of xenophobia (a harsh generalisation I know) which explains the
superiority concept plus we always got high marks whenever we had a spat with
some Eurpean powers historically.
- October 6, 2011 at 20:38
-
Er… the Germans (no, not them! It was the Nazis from Planet Zanussi!)
waged aggressive war for Lebensraum twice in the last century. They started
it – we joined in. Because we are gentlemen, we declared war before piling
in (cf. Nippon). Britain’s interests never change – it is not in our
interest for the European landmass to be under the control of a single
power. Alliances may shift, friendships will come and go, treaties will wax
and wane but the one constant of British involvement in Europe throughout
the centuries has been the the quest to avoid one over-weening power taking
control. So we fought the Spanish, the French, the Russians and the Germans
at one time or another. It is not a superiority complex, or xenophobia (the
British are largely not xenophobic and are quite welcoming to other people),
it is simply acting in our interests. It must be said we have been rather
good at war through the centuries – largely because we are good at building
alliances.
Curious that people call us prudish though. Page 3? Drunks in the
streets? Young kids pregnant at 13? Potty mouthed language, nudity, gays and
sex on the TV? Abortion capital of Europe? I could understand it if
foreigners thought we were incontinent and lacking self-control. I suspect
we stopped being prudish in about 1963, when sex was invented.
I don’t care we lost an Empire – the age of Empires is gone. I do care
that we are free though. The EU is most profoundly un-free, which is why we
need to get the hell out of it. If the others want to be shackled to the
Germans, good luck to them.
-
October 6, 2011 at 13:01
-
Donatus – you should learn the rules of cricket (or rugby) and therefore
also acquire the notion of grace under pressure. I will make no grovelling
apologies for Britain’s past – it is quite unnecessary for me to do so.
The last time Croatia came onto my radar screen (aside from when British
soldiers were killed during the war in the former Yugoslavia – I lost three
good friends) was when I studied the Thirty Years’ War and learned that the
highest-paid mercenaries (on any sides) were probably ancestors of yours.
- October
6, 2011 at 13:23
-
I don’t really get how this has to do with anything that we’ve spoken of.
Sure, maybe my ancestors were the warriors from the Thirty Years’ War. Also,
there is quite s possibility they were the gurdians of Europe for centuries
when we were called “Antemurale Christianitatis” because of our fighting the
Ottoman Turks and blocking their way deeper into European territory. I know
we had a rough and tough history filled with wars and bloodshed. Still, I
have no idea how is that related to this debate.
- October 6, 2011 at 14:37
-
Your problem is old boy is that you appear to be taking a trifle too
much delight in scoffing at the decline of a once mighty power.
At the same time you fail to acknowledge that there is much in this
world that is good that had its origins in Britain. For a start, tell me,
what %-age of the world is it that converses in English?
There have been so many miracles of science, engineering, medicine,
culture, literature, music and sport that originated in Britain that it is
next to impossible for you to claim that us Brits have a diminishing
influence in the world.
You also fail to acknowledge that Britain civilised half the globe and
gifted the principles of sound administration, town planning, education
and justice to all whilst exercising complete restraint in the areas of
locals’ religion and custom (unlike the Catholic empire-builders).
You also fail to acknowledge that Britain inspired such love and
respect that in two world wars millions left their homes in Australia, NZ,
Canada, India, South Africa and other places to help her in the struggle
against Nazism.
You fail to mention the incredible success of the Commonwealth, and how
it is held in such esteem that nations which were not part of the British
empire have applied to join.
No. You’re completely wrong. Britain will still retain influence in the
world. We are not afraid of Germany, and we will not go cap in hand to the
Russians – the Chinese maybe, but not the Russians.
I shall reiterate, pretty much everything that is good in this world
originated – or its development was influenced by Britain.
- October 6, 2011 at
14:44
-
For a start, tell me, what %-age of the world is it that converses in
English?
Hmmn, small problem with that – there are 1700 words in the English
Dictionary that are directly derived from the French, and untold 1,000s
that have changed either spelling or meaning ever so slightly from the
original French. We are still not counting all the Latin words, nor
indeed the the German and Saxon words. It ight be truer to ask ‘what
percentage of the world speaks a bastardised French/Latin/German tongue
that they couldn’t quite get their tongues round the proper
pronunciation of – and now refer to proudly as ‘English’.
Britain did civilise half the world – employing the building/banking
and legal and accounting methods that the Normans taught them, and some
of the Romans – and then claimed the full credit for.
Now it seems, we may not even have invented cricket…….
- October 6, 2011 at
14:59
-
Er….no Anna, the world speaks ENGLISH – its general etymology is
irrelevant.
Hmm, well in construction it was the Egyptians who engineered the
pyramids – but that style never caught on elsewhere did it?
The Chinese were very good at building walls, and I think they
invented paper, gunpowder and the compass, but then again their all
their advancements stopped in about 1500 and they regressed for
500yrs.
As for the Frogs, well their cheese and wine is good – then again
they nicked viticulture from the Holy Land. I suppose you could say
the French invented the toilet seat – but it was the English who put
the hole in it.
The Germans invented the sausage and the missile – two similarly
shaped items that tells you all you need to know about our friends
with box-heads.
The Americans only invented rock ‘n’ roll – it still took the Brits
to make it perfect.
Pretty much everything else in the world was done by us Poms.
-
October 6, 2011 at 15:27
-
Anna, I tread on our good landlady’s corns with some trepidation,
but the origins of the English language lie in it’s evolution from
Anglo-Saxon tongues, and possibly some vestiges of Roman latin, during
the middle part of the first millenium AD. It then absorbed some
Viking words, then some Norman French, and slowly evolved until it
started absorbing words from the colonies in the 18th century and
onwards. That possibly goes a good way to explaining the somewhat
chaotic grammer of the English language. (Oddly, very few words seem
to have been absorbed from the British Celtic languages that pre-dated
the Anglo-Saxons, and still live on on the Western fringes of
Britain.)
The Normans would have found administering their new conquest after
1066 almost impossible if it were not for the already-evolved
Anglo-Saxon administrative machinery – it was reckoned the most
efficient in the known world at the time. Perhaps some was a legacy of
Roman administration, but many feel we have much to thank the
Anglo-Saxons for in building the foundations of the nation.
Perhaps if we disagree, we might ask Gildas to arbitrate – after
all, he was there.
- October 6, 2011 at 14:52
-
You also fail to acknowledge that Britain civilised half the globe
and gifted the principles of sound administration, town planning,
education and justice to all whilst exercising complete restraint in the
areas of locals’ religion and custom (unlike the Catholic
empire-builders).
………………………………………………………………………………….
Real humanitarians, I would say.
- October 6, 2011 at
15:00
-
At last – small spark of recognition.
-
October 6, 2011 at 12:56
-
I’m listening to Motorhead……….the lyrics of ‘(I Won’t) Pay Your Price’ seem
apt to describe the EU and its (im)potentates.
Move out it’s time for someone else
Quit thinking only of
yourself,
You’re really a nasty piece of work,
You know you thought you
were a hero but
You’re really just a jerk,
On my way, you know I Won’t
Pay Your Price
You can’t stop me don’tcha even try,
Gonna stick my
finger in your eye,
You don’t deserve my admiration,
And I’ll sling you
out the window
If you give me aggravation,
On my way, you know I Won’t
Pay Your Price
I’m tired of listening to crap,
I’d rather stab you in the back,
I’m
telling you the only real reason that
You ain’t gonna get it is ‘cos skunk
is outta season,
On my way, you know I Won’t Pay Your Price
Shut the door behind you when you go,
Why you’re still here I don’t
really know,
I’m gonna count up to three and if you’re still here
I’ll
get a gun and blow away your knees,
On my way, you know I Won’t Pay Your
Price
-
October 6, 2011 at 10:11
-
Donatus; your assumption that ‘There is no strong Britain without a stable
Europe.’ is not historically correct. For much of the last 400 years, Europe
has been in a state of social and political disarray, whereas Britain has
quietly evolved, via her Empire, via wars, via Commonwealth, into what we had
become by 1997, after which we rather fell off the cliff.
But along the way, the Anglosphere was created – the most powerful and
influential intellectual, cultural and political power bloc in history. It has
left us a bit used up, but never forget, the Empire was largely a commercial
undertaking, not really an Imperial one.
Britain, though, should not take any lessons from ‘Europe’ on the matter of
‘integration’. Enough blood and treasure has been sacrificed by this country
(and her Empire and Commonwealth) on sorting out Franco-German hostility, none
of which was our fault. Napoleon was a shit; the Kaiser was a shit; Hitler was
a shit and Europe as a whole should be grateful to Britain, not the other way
around.
And so should just about everyone in the Balkan region…
- October
6, 2011 at 10:33
-
And there comes the cockiness
- October 6, 2011 at 12:12
-
All true though.
- October 6, 2011 at 08:58
-
Some interesting points made.
Apart from a few people in their 80s/90s,
I don’t know anybody with strong views about the loss of Britain’s past
international position. It was a long time ago, we all travel more these days
and I hope get a more balanced view.
What I am aware of is a powerful
dislike of control by the distant, unelected, expensed and uninvolved, whether
it be from council, Whitehall, Brussels, or big business.
It may well be that our mainly wet politicians and officials see the eu as
the only game in town and play their games for what they see as our
interest.
My view is that it may be inevitable, it’s all gone too fast-
resulting in massive migration without preperation in host countries, and the
euro fiasco. It’s like a very expensive jerry built building.
I know the
core mainland countries clung together after WW2 from horror at what they’d
done, and the pain of reconstruction, Understandable, but this alliance has
since taken on a perverse and accellerating life of it’s own.
I’m far from
convinced it’s sustainable or ultimately in our interest.
- October 5, 2011 at 23:45
-
You will know when the EU is important when the big powers (whoever they
will be) start suppressing it.
At present it can’t even pay its bills.
- October 5, 2011 at 22:16
-
Donatus, thanks for spurring the best pub discussion in weeks, I sit in my
favourite chair with my back to the wall, expecting fists to fly any minute. I
hope Daz is around to record the proceedings in his inimitable style.
I see Chatelaine attributes peace in Europe to the EU, totally ignoring the
contribution of the Marshall plan and US protection during the cold war. Even
a reliable and thoughtful commentator as the Engineer mistakes commonwealth
members forebearance of insufferable british hubris as acceptance and ignores
interference in Libyan affairs. The evening is heating up.
- October 5, 2011 at 22:49
-
It’s always interesting to look at matters from a different perspective,
and in the matter of the EU, Donatus’ post has enabled us to do that. There
will be no fists from me, just my thanks to Donatus for allowing a lively
exchange of views, and for teaching me a few things I didn’t know about
Croatia.
As for interference in Libyan affairs, matters are very much ‘ongoing’,
but the early indications are that we may have got it more right than wrong
so far. We’ll have to be patient and see how things pan out before we can
really determine the benefits of the NATO (not just British) operation for
the Libyan people.
“Insufferable British hubris” is a bit strong. Some Brits can be
arrogantly pompous stuffed shirts, I’ll freely concede, but the bonds with
nations like Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand are strong enough to
weather such idiocy (except perhaps when it comes to Cricket and Rugby).
-
October 6, 2011 at 03:02
-
In a virtual pub, the virtual fists are probably equivalent to that dry
phrase “lively exchange of views”. I obviously failed to convey that.
Libya, I am certain will prove to be a disaster for the west if for no
other reason than “stinger” shoulder mount missiles are now in the hands
of known terrorists, but you are correct to state that the UK is not alone
in complicity for this action. The point still remains, the UK love to
pretend they are a major world power.
As for commonwealth relations, as Donatus points out, the Royal family
is generally still held in high esteem, beyond that Britain is generally
regarded as a nation that picks fights it cannot win then relies heavily
on commonwealth (or US) materiel and manpower to bail it out, once the
battle is won Britain wheedles, whines and avoids payment. You are not
held in high regard, which perhaps is why Donatus describes you (as a
country) as “cocky little puritans”…..”who like to look down on others”(my
interpretation of his longer description). I can relate to that
description.
If I may return to a fisticuffs allusion and a Camoron statement
concerning Libya, -Britain only punches above its weight with the help of
others.
- October 6, 2011 at 08:38
-
Britain is generally regarded as a nation that picks fights it
cannot win then relies heavily on commonwealth (or US) materiel and
manpower to bail it out, once the battle is won Britain wheedles, whines
and avoids payment.
I don’t recognise this scenario, with the possible exception of Suez.
Britain bent over backwards avoiding conflict prior to 1939, the
experience of 1914-1918 was still in the common memory. As to paying the
bills the UK has done that in full and more. The US benefited from the
boost in wartime manufacturing and free technology transfer from the UK.
The ‘defeated’ countries benefited from Marshall aid.
-
October 6, 2011 at 18:05
-
Hi JimS, you may not recognize the scenario because,
understandably, welching on ones commitments is not polite
conversation.
yUk has not paid its bills “in full and more”, lets ignore the
legacy costs of war for commonwealth combatants-hospitalization and
all that entails, war pensions etc-paid in full by the commonwealth
countries. Concentrate on the cost of material and food support, I
refer you here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6215847.stm
Wherein you will note that Britain has still to pay debts from
world war one, the articles are US-centric because they were owed the
most. However I can produce evidence of British wheedling and whining
about debt to Canada after they setup and operated the Commonwealth
Air Training Plan at enormous expense so that eventually it was
written off the books. In effect commonwealth countries paid for the
right to participate in your war-how gallant, this was repaid with
sullen ungratefulness and whining about the necessity to pay it’s
debt.
You are also incorrect to trot out the British urban-myth that
“defeated” countries received Marshall plan aid, Britain also received
massive Marshall plan aid, and proceeded to build its welfare state
with it. See here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml
Imagine what might have been had Britain invested its Marshall plan
aid as well as Germany?
So, I can relate to Donatus theme, even as Camoron trots out the
bulldog spirit one more time. I wonder why the commonwealth nations no
longer rush to the aid of arthritic Britain? Could it be that they
fell ill-used by an ungrateful nation?
- October
5, 2011 at 21:49
-
I fear there is some truth in your assessment Donatus with regard to the
international arrogance and posturing of our politicians. Maybe you see that
rather than seeing the ordinary people?
I would completely disagree with
you when it comes to the people. While I think many people are proud of our
past as a leading international nation, and I think much of that pride is
justified despite the mistakes, I don’t think most people are interested in
retaining that role of a ‘leading nation’. It’s not relevent to ordinary
people.
Neither are many ordinary people interested in the EU as such. Not
because we are better, or worse, or want to control Europe, or see it as a way
to international influence or anything else. Basically most people simply
don’t care about those things. We want stability, security, reasonable
prosperity and freedom. The EU is not delivering any of those things but the
opposite, meddling in our traditions, reducing our freedoms, sucking away our
prosperity, causing resentment and insecurity.
We just want it to go away
and leave us alone to get on with our own lives, we are a small country, so
what? What France and Germany and the other parts of Europe do is immaterial
to us provided we don’t have to pay for it or become ensnared and enslaved by
it.
- October
5, 2011 at 22:18
-
This is a post about politics and I always see politics thru politicians,
Secret Service or military actions, not thru ordinary people.
I love British lifestyle, fashion and football culture. I adore Man
United since I was a kid, I got it from my dad. So, this has nothing to do
with ordinary Brits, but with British politics which is created by the
politicians. And if you comment on British politics’ continuity for
centuries or decades you can’t simply detach it from the Empire days,
colonialism and many other stuff. As a Croat, I just can’t ignore the fact
that Yugoslavia was a British project in which we were pushed twice (and
there are plans that see us back in for the third time) and made our
contribution in blood both times. As a Croat, I can’t ignore the fact that
Britain sees Germany in us and is our biggest opponent in international
politics.
It’s a long story, maybe I’ll write a post about it sometimes…
-
October 5, 2011 at 23:01
-
Perhaps there is something here that we in Britain rather take for
granted – for the best part of three centuries, the Armed Forces and the
Secret Services have acted for Queen and Country, and not for government.
It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one. It means that ordinary
Brits feel that the British Military, MI5 and MI6 are with us, not against
us; also, they are not a tool of government. It isn’t always clearcut, but
that’s the general way of it.
- October 5, 2011 at 21:28
-
From the perspective of a Scot who is working for independence from two
unions (UK and EU) I find this kind of defeatism depressing.
I don’t give a toss about global status or the respect supposed to be
afforded to the history of empire. What I want is to live in a self-governing
state run for the benefit of myself and my compatriots, and I can’t see that
happening within the EU. I have no animosity towards the EU per se, but I
object strongly to the arrogance and hubris of its managers (I won’t say
elected representatives).
I want to live in a small nimble country that is free to make its own way
in a free trade world, which is what my parents were promised at the time of
the EEC referendum. There’s no way the UK as currently constituted will
achieve that, so we need to pursue an alternative route.
What’s the difference between the HDZ and the SNP? The SNP have an absolute
majority (and growing) of electoral support.
- October 5, 2011 at 22:26
-
It’s probably considered very bad form to reply to one’s own post. Who
cares?
Hi Donatus,
From the fact that you have visited my site and have replied to Woodsy’s
post below this one I am guessing that you have no answer to the argument
that when politics is taken into the hands of the people then considerations
of global dominance become redundant.
Remember that 690 years ago the Scots declared that if the king did not
meet the expectations of the people, the people would change the king. That
is about to happen.
I have only ever known one Croat – I worked alongside him and respected
and liked him. Would you like to live in a free country? We are a very
welcoming nation.
- October 6, 2011 at 03:24
-
Sorry, mate, haven’t seen your comment.
I must say that I don’t see this kind of a change you’re talking about
so soon. In fact, I think that most of the complainers about the Union
wouldn’t raise their voice even a bit if there wasn’t the economic crisis.
Today’s people are more into ‘panem et circenses’ then they ever were. Who
cares about freedom or democracy, long live iPads and smartphones! If you
know what I mean…
Regarding the proposal for moving to Scotland, I must say I really do
like Scotland and I think Scots and Croats are very similar people. We
could get along
But there’s no place like home…
- October 6, 2011 at 11:19
-
I take your point about too many distractions keeping peoples’ minds
off the contemplation of democracy.
However, in Scotland a step change in democracy is about to appear
right in the faces of everyone in the country and it is quite possible
that it will be sold as a way out of the economic mess that we are all
in. It is becoming more widely understood that even now Scotland is
subsidising the rest of the UK and once we dump the non-productive
spending such as the EU contributions, Trident and those damn windmills
we will be even better off.
When democracy can be expressed in terms of pounds in pockets it is
much easier to gain peoples’ attention.
- October 5, 2011 at 20:40
-
It always strikes me how foreigners are obsessed (perhaps thats too strong
a word, but its typically rather more than a passing interest) with the empire
when the overwhelming majority of people in Britain don’t particularly care
about it any more.
Everything this country does seems to be seen through the lens of the
empire and a belief that we have not, and cannot get over losing it. have we
declined any more than other former imperial powers like France or Spain? I
think our legacy is rather more, I honestly do. How many people in the world
speak English as a first or second language? That alone is a hell of legacy
and one that will persist long after the small island that gave birth to it is
long forgotten.
Micheal Fowke is spot on. I don’t care about power either, just
freedom.
Donatus my friend it is a massive, monumental, staggering failure of
imagination and faith in the British and all other people in Europe to imagine
that the only way we can “compete” is to be coralled into some pseudo 18th
century mercantile bloc run by our “betters” .
- October 5, 2011 at 20:19
-
For one I’m going to give you my classic line [boring, I know] the EU has
established for the FIRST time in history NO European war for more than 60
years [I am not counting a Sarkozy, who spenss billions on being the first one
– “world-leader”] to send his Mirages to Libya, whereas the same amount of
money or even less would have closed the big gap in our national social
security system [don’t make me talk …]. Secondly, there is NO Euro crisis.
As long as you’re part of the Euro zone, whatever happens you won’t feel it in
your pocket. And the EURO is STRONG; stronger than the dollar and the pound …
Thirdly, I have always been an advocate for the UK leaving the EU. They
joined, but don’t want it. Don’t want the Euro neither. Let them be the trait
d’union, the reading mark, between the Continent and the USA, because that’s
exactly their position.
Tin hat on and gone for the day …
-
October 5, 2011 at 21:32
-
Errrrrm, EU has done nothing to prevent war in Europe, indeed my
overriding concern that its inevitable collapse (and it is inevitable, ALL
empires fall apart) is that it will result in war in Europe. The lack of war
since 1945 can be summed up simply; NATO & Warsaw Pact.
As for stating there is no crisis in the Euro, well, I can only assume a
degree of trolling.
-
October 5, 2011 at 21:46
-
Trolling? I beg your pardon …
- October 5, 2011 at 19:40
-
One thing that the UK does have – and it’s taken us the best part of a
thousand years to develop it – is the ability of ordinary people to elect
their decision makers, and to unelect them if they make a mess of it. The EU
does not allow election of the decision makers, it appoints them. It most
certainly does not allow us to unappoint them if they make a balls of it. This
is profoundly against the British sense of freedom, so ordinary Brits are
profoundly distrustful and resentful of it. It has been thrust upon us by
stealth and by lies, so as a consequence, we like it even less.
In 1975, we had a referendum on whether or not to remain in the EEC (the
European Economic Community – a free trade area). We chose to stay. Since
then, it has changed from a free trade area to an all-encompassing government,
with it’s own currency (which is now falling apart) and a clear intention to
enforce full political union. We were never consulted about any of that, and
we don’t want it. None of under the age of 54 have never had the chance to
express our opinion on the EU through a ballot box, execpt at the somewhat
meaningless European Parliament elections (and UKIP tends to do very well at
those elections).
The ordinary Brit wants to have good trade and diplomatic relations with
our neighbours in Europe, but we don’t want to be governed by them. Nor do we
want to govern them. British history is complex; we have given some good
things to the rest of the world, but done some bad things too. We hope we’ve
learned from some of our mistakes, but we remain on remarkably good terms with
most of the countries that were formerly part of the British Empire, and now
make up a large part of the Commonwealth. They are probably as much, if not
more, our natural partners than the USA is.
Sir, you say that we are resentful of waning world power. Maybe that was
the case thirty years ago, but not now. Most of us are quite happy just to
live our lives in peace, and make a reasonable living. We’re not interested in
being the Big Knowalls, but we do think that our government should defend
British interests abroad on our behalf. I think that most of what we do abroad
is generally in the best interests of the wider world (Iraq being an
exception), but we are quite aware that Britain doesn’t rule the world and are
quite content with that.
- October 5, 2011 at 19:07
-
What’s all this talk about empire and supremacy, cockiness etc. All we want
is to have some control over the laws we are forced to abide by. By that, I
mean the public being able to sit face to face with one of those who is
passing them and be able to vote them out. The EU affords none of that but
passes diktat after diktat from its unassailable ivory tower.
This piece reads as saying that the UK wants to dominate the world but is
sceptical about lumping in with the EU and thereby, err, dominating the world.
Make your mind up fella.
- October
5, 2011 at 19:35
-
Look, things are simple.
Europe will either get more integrated and be on top or the EU will fall
apart and European national states just won’t be able to follow the new
trends in the World. For Croatia that’s not a problem cause we were never
rich and significant, but for Britain it could be an issue. In Croatia we
have a saying: “The worst thing is to have and then to have not”.
There is a choice – be a team member and the bedrock of strong Europe or
be on your own and in Third Division. Divided Europe can’t compete with USA,
Russia and China. Britain just has to reassess its priorities and that’s
all.
-
October 5, 2011 at 19:52
-
It sounds to me that you are far more worried about Britain leaving the
EU than the British are.
Britain has enjoyed nearly a thousand years of independence, so we know
how to thrive and prosper as an independent nation. We’re not frightened
by it because we’ve done it before. It’s in our blood. For most of that
thousand years, we were not the most powerful nation, so we’re used to
that, too. Yes, things are changing in the world – things have always
changed, and we’ll have to adapt to those changes. But we don’t have to be
part of somebody else’s political construct to survive and prosper.
- October 5, 2011 at 20:21
-
I couldn’t care less about Britain’s leaving the EU. I’m a
nationalist and just not able to develop any positive feeling towards
any kind of multinational Empires or Alliances. I see Europe as a
peaceful place made of cooperative national states. And I don’t think
Croatia would lose anything in those circumstances, au contraire. But
those days of national states are long gone, I’m afraid.
I just wrote my opinion on Britain’s situation, that’s all. What’s
Britain really going to do is not my concern.
- October 5, 2011 at 18:30
-
I’m with Michael, I don’t care two hoots for our global position. It might
be nice to have, but we can’t aford to posture any more. Is New Zealand any
less of a nation for not having the international profile the UK has?
- October 5, 2011 at 17:53
-
The EU is a dead-end, bureaucratic and devoid of imagination.
The British Empire was built on trade and despite the EU Britain continues
to be a world trader directly and indirectly through its commercial
markets.
A sovereign UK would be free to form its own alliances, just as it did in
the past. Better to be ‘cocky’ than subservient.
- October 5, 2011 at 17:37
-
I’m not concerned about British supremacy, just British freedom.
- October 5, 2011 at 18:22
-
yep – that’s the point. I’d rather fall and rebuild than live and be
controlled and criminalised by a veritable blanket of unnecessary
regulations that I’m paying for whether I want to or not. It’s not just
about what we are, or what we’ve done, but about who we are and the sale of
our heritage when we were never even asked. Such bad manners in taking
something that is not yours to give is profoundly unBritish.
- October 5, 2011 at 18:39
-
The thing is that Britain is far less important from the geopolitical
point of view than it was 50 or 100 years ago. And today’s World is going
towards few big and strong alliances that will fight for dominance.
Britain, on its own, would be far behind US, EU, China, Russia, and
very soon India and Brasil as well. For us in Croatia that’s not a problem
cause we were never a global force and also never rich and strong. Third
Division for us is something that we could live with. Could you?!
- October 5, 2011 at
19:08
-
Yes. And what’s more, we would be happier without the incessant
stream of orders from unelected commissioners that go with it.
- October 5, 2011 at 19:43
-
Couldn’t agree more. I’m also eurosceptic, my post had a simple
purpose to describe Britain’s position from my point of view.
I would oppose Croatian membership even more than I do now if there
isn’t just one “little” problem with our staying on our own in a
globalized World – potential new Balkan integrations, the famous
“Yugosphere”, sponsored primarily by Britain. Been there, done that,
rather dead than in those pants again.
- October 5, 2011 at 17:25
-
I was in Croatia during the civil war there, lovely pizzas, excellent
climate.
Now, quite some years later, I see what was really afoot. Serbia defied the
new world order, of which the EU is but one limb, and was bombed and invaded
for that reason. I hope we in Britain can regain our freedom by showing some
of the dignity and bravery that Serbia showed.
- October
5, 2011 at 18:25
-
Please let’s not speak about the war in Croatia cause it had nothing to
do with The New World Order or anything like that.
Serbian “bravery” was based on guns they took from the Yugoslav People’s
Army, and when the other side, our side, bought some serious weapons the
“bravery” misteriously dissapeared. When you shell the cities with thousands
of civilians, close the water and electricity supply for hundreds of
thounsands of people and fight with tanks and MIGs against Kalashnikovs then
it’s easy to be brave.
I’m also against The European Superstate, Barosso’s Empire or anything
like it, as the banner on the blog says – “Europe is my continent, not my
country”. But for God’s sake, let’s not mix fascism with antiglobalism or
any fool in Croatia then could say that Ustashe puppet regime in the WWII
killed thousands of people cause they were fighting the germs and improving
Public Health.
Please let’s not focus on the War in Croatia cause it’s not the subject
of this debate. We’ll have different perspectives of our Homeland War cause
your family members didn’t end in caskets in their early 30′s, mine did. You
had your childhood, I skipped mine. And also, the Brits were always
politically close to Serbs, Yugoslavia was British project in the Southeast
Europe, and Serbs were the governors. Well, not any more. It’s all in the
past and let’s leave it there.
Dear Anna, I’m honored to have my post on your blog. Cheers from small
and proud Croatia
- October 5, 2011 at 18:33
-
I couldn’t disagree more with your views on Britain in the EU Donatus
but thanks for the insight. Very interesting and very well written. I’m a
sucker for a good writer.
- October 5, 2011 at 19:29
-
Indeed. Well done. Parts I agree with. For example, Britain joined
the EU because it needed to in its weakened economic state. Weakened in
great degree because it had been exhausted by 20th Century wars against
German bids for hegemony in Europe, in various guises.
But I am now
going to make a what some would call a “racist” or “nationalist”
statement. The Anglo Saxon tradition is historically opposed Fascism,
Dictatorship and state control: the European tradition is prone to it.
As Churchill wrote in his “History of the English Speaking Peoples”, no
English speaking people has ever fallen prey to dictatorship in the
modern political ere. There is a slight blot on that (Cromwell in the
1650′s) but subject to that it is correct. There is an in built
dedication to the rule of law and democracy which is not reflected in
Europe: see under Napoleon or Hitler. The Anglo Saxon tradition has
until recently rejected the all powerful “State” and subjugation to the
bureaucrat with their “Carte Blanche”. And in so doing was the last
bastion against the surging forces not just of Bonaparte, but Hitler’s
Germany. The sad and bitter thing about modern Britain is that what
passes for its present Establishment has forgotten this and lies
prostrate before the alter of the EU and Dictatorship . But the people
remember. Hence the viscoral distrust of unelected “Commisioners” and
their ilk, who tax, but are not held to account.
Great post and
comment though.
Well done.
G the M
{ 50 comments }