The Ethical Connundrum Surrounding Mark Saunders Death.
Help me out here folks, I’m floundering in a sea of ethics. I know that some of you are policemen yourselves, some are expert legal brains, some of you have in depth knowledge of religious tracts – there are many thousands of you who read this blog every day, I really hope that you will make today the day you put fingers to keyboards and come up with some answers for me, for I’m damned if I can figure it out.
‘It’ being the moral conundrum surrounding Mark Saunders death at the hands of the police. More specifically ‘it’ being the wider picture surrounding Mark Saunders death.
I can join up small pieces of the picture; I can see why a policeman should be allowed to shoot at a man who points a gun at him and may be about to shoot at him – there is no justification for asking a man to go to work and that work involve smiling sweetly whilst someone shoots at him – I do have sympathy for the position of the individual policeman.
I can see that it is ‘morally abhorrent’ for a society to employ the death penalty. To uphold the death penalty is to morally agree that it can be right to take another person’s life. I am not sure that I agree with that position, for it seems to me that having removed the death penalty you have removed the fear of carrying guns and so increased the number of times that a policeman might face a man carrying a gun.
I can perfectly understand that it might be legal to take a life under the circumstances in which Mark Saunders lost his life – law is man made, and if a law is passed saying it is legal to string annoying small children upside down on a hillside for the buzzards to take care of, then it is legal – it doesn’t make it morally right though. It is the moral maze that I am lost in.
Mark Saunders was waving a gun around, indisputably. Down in the road there were 51 armed officers ready to return fire. Why? If you put 51 officers in his line of sight, all carrying guns, then the chances are he is going to point his gun back at one of them. We are told that the ‘moral argument’ that lies behind their right to shoot at him is that he might have harmed the one he was pointing the gun at. Or the one next to him, or the one next to him. We cannot be sure that he would have done, for he was no sharp shooter. Beneath him stood 59 highly trained men who are tested and exercised on a regular basis to ensure that they could be trusted to shoot straight. They had over 100 firearms issued to them. Yet 7 of them fired off 11 rounds and only five rounds found their target. The moral argument appears to rest on the fact that one man, wildly drunk, high on cocaine, without the benefit of the Met’s extensive training, could be trusted to hit one of them. Admittedly he had more targets than they did.
Which brings me back to the question of why did he have more targets than they did?
Why were those men in his line of fire? We are told that the danger was he might have hit an innocent passer by – fine, shut the street. We are told that he might have committed suicide – fine, let him, it’s legal. We are told that he might have left his apartment – indeed he might, surely tear gas fired through the window would have dealt with that possibility?
I cannot join the dots between the idea that it is wrong to take a life after due process, after forensic evidence, after extensive argument, after the involvement of ‘a jury of your peers’, who do not have guns pointing at them, and yet there is – allegedly – a moral argument to be made in favour of placing 51 tempting targets waving guns a mere 13 metres away from a deranged man with a gun and as soon as he points his gun back at them – taking his life ‘just in case’.
I attach no blame to the individual police officers. It is the management of the scene that I take issue with – and that is not just a matter of blaming individual senior officers, but of taking account of society’s change in morals that have led to them working under their current instructions.
It is as illogical as the argument that it is morally indefensible for a loving Mother who has cared for and reared a severely disabled child for 20, 30 years, deciding calmly that he should suffer no longer whereas it is perfectly OK for a High Court Judge to decide on the basis of legal arguments that another identical child should be starved and dehydrated for days on end in order that he should not live any longer.
It is as illogical as the argument that says it is morally defensible for a civil servant to decide that Old Mother Hubbard should no longer receive the drugs which keep her alive, but should her husband withhold them from her, he would be charged with murder.
Is it just that the State, the Crown, is an insatiable beast – we used to hand them the odd pathetic individual and so ‘OK, you can hang this one, we’ve thought long and hard about it, and decided he can go’, and that devoid of their diet they now feel the need to think up new ways to satisfy their blood lust by shooting us, aborting us, starving and dehydrating us, at will?
Somebody please explain the logic behind all this – or if no logic, then the morality, which is not necessarily the same thing…
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October 8, 2010 at 10:45 -
“Beneath him stood 59 highly trained men who are tested and exercised on a regular basis to ensure that they could be trusted to shoot straight.”
Methinks you assume too much. An occasional read of a few army and police blogs and forums has left me with the impression that they don’t do much training and aren’t that good a shot.
“Somebody please explain the logic behind all this – or if no logic, then the morality, which is not necessarily the same thing…”
There is none. Thanks to a hyped up sense of terrorism ‘Armed police’ are this decade’s high speed pursuit cops. A shout is a good chance to get adrenaline pumping, whether it is a dozen Police sports cars swarming after a 13 year old joyrider committing their hundredth offence or descending in obscene numbers to Mark Saunders’ flat. The chain of command was confused. Might several ‘commanders’ have been directing their own sets of armed Police?
Perhaps they have swallowed their own hype – that the world out there is a very bad place and they can’t take the risk of being out numbered and out gunned. If so then there is a morality to it and it is ‘We’re a bigger gang than you’. It was a disproportionate response. If somewhere in their procedures is the view that Police responding to an armed threat must be armed themselves, the public ought to have that liberty too for the Police are supposed to be just like us.
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October 8, 2010 at 12:12 -
“Perhaps they have swallowed their own hype…”
Possibly. It seems the armed services branch is considered the pinnacle for commanders, which is surprising, given the chances of something going horribly, horribly wrong…
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October 8, 2010 at 13:48 -
I can shed some light on this. As a qualified RCO ( = runs range sessions ), I have seen plod with firearms on numerous occasions. It is not a pretty sight, most of them have serious John Wayne syndrome and a number are just looking for an oportunity to lay down some lead.
IMHO they are a complete danger to the public and should all be disarmed . If someone needs shooting, it should be an army bod or a local keeper with extensive foxing or stalking experience, under the direct instruction of a very grown up copper.-
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October 8, 2010 at 19:57 -
Nah, post 7/7 the best Met officers are trained to a very high level. They work closely with UKSF and practice hard and often.
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October 10, 2010 at 21:53 -
On the citizenry it would seem.
Nothing like a bit of live target practice?
Woodentops should not be trusted with any tool that the rest of us aren’t, that’s from pepper spray to G36s.
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October 8, 2010 at 10:51 -
It appears to me that although the citizen is permitted to use whatever is deemed to be ‘reasonable force’ in order to resist his/her assailant/robber, the police are apparently under no such strictures. After all, they’re permitted to bear firearms; Joe Soap isn’t – unless he’s jumped through the necessary hoops to get his certificate. Whatever ‘morality’ in this case seems to be arbitrarily decided by the police officer who co-ordinates the response. In other words, there’s no apparent set of guiding moral principles, because the State is its own self-appointed moral guardian. Of one thing we can be sure – we won’t get any sensible answers from the establishment.
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October 8, 2010 at 10:59 -
I’m sure most of us could write reams on the lack of moral compass of our recent governments’ and their power crazed police forces. In a country where free speech is now frowned upon, are you surprised?
Nothing shocks me anymore, I just become a little more outraged everyday at the total stupidity of the “system”. -
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October 8, 2010 at 11:04 -
I share your qualms and uncertainty about this case, Anna, but for me there is one thing which has nagged away and still does – the phrasing of the verdict: lawfully killed. There is something so deeply disquieting about those two words emanating from a legal system which has all too often proven itself inept or corrupt. To sanction in our (collective) name the killing of a private citizen as ‘lawful’ is a shade or two too close to ‘legally killed’. A matter of semantics, probably, but the framing of the concept seems indicative of a particular view of the relationship between the state and the individual.
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October 8, 2010 at 11:20 -
I agree that the police response seems to have been disproportionate (and not more so than with Raoul Moat), but there is a fundamental point here: the guy was waving a loaded gun out of a window, within range of police officers, other people’s houses and so on (I understand that one of his shots shattered a child’s bedroom window). He knew the police were there, and he had the opportunity to lay the gun down, puit his hands up and end it there and then. He didn’t; he continued to point the gun out of the window until one or more officers decided that either they or the public were at risk of being shot. I’m glad my job never puts me in the position of deciding whether to take someone’s life or risk them killing other people and have that decision on my conscience. I did a post about it here at the time.
If there’s a mad dog loose in the street, you shoot it and worry about the ethics afterwards. Sorry – I have grave doubts about the recent behaviour of the police from Jean Charles de Menenez onwards, but on this one they have my full support.
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October 8, 2010 at 12:13 -
Seconded.
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October 8, 2010 at 12:20 -
“If there’s a mad dog loose in the street, you shoot it and worry about the ethics afterwards.”
But the person shot was not a mad dog, but a human being with a mental illness. From the reports of the inquest I consider that the Police engineered the conclusion by placing so many armed officers (who could perceive themselves or colleagues to be threatened) in the area. Why weren’t the adjoining and facing houses evacuated and a cordon established as if an unexploded bomb had been found in a garden? It sickens me that the Righteous replaced capital punishment after trial, appeal and appeal for clemency to the Home Secretary with life on licence sentences and state extra-judicial killing by officers permitted to collude when writing their statements. When our soldiers return from Blair’s War, snipers and marksmen should be made available to the civil authorities just as EOD teams are now and the Police gun squads disbanded after an extensive audit of lost equipment.-
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October 8, 2010 at 12:46 -
I couldn’t agree more with your statement – especially the ‘extensive audit for lost equipment’.
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October 8, 2010 at 12:57 -
“But the person shot was not a mad dog, but a human being with a mental illness…”
What mental illness?
I know they recently overhauled the classification system and included all kinds of new and politically correct ‘ailments’, but I wasn’t aware a tendency to get blotto on booze and charlie and fire wildly out of the window, bolstered by an overweening sense of entitlement and a fatally-misjudged idea that you wouldn’t be treated the same as anyone else, was an ‘illness’ now…
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October 8, 2010 at 13:37 -
According to the Guardian, he was diagnosed with alcoholism and depression and prescribed Prozac. Booze + anti-depressants + a shotgun isn’t the best treatment stategy in hindsight. As the law stands, if you are fit enough to drive a car, you are fit enough to handle a gun
safely. It will be interesting to see if GPs will be able to flag up serious mental illness to the Police for them to decide on the gun-owner’s suitability to hold a licence.
A shotgun firing properly-filled cartridges is lethal at close range but will only injure at ranges exceeding about 50 yards (plus an extra 10 yards at full choke ie the spread of shot is reduced in area). I think that the Police were threatened by Mark Saunders’ TA training.
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October 8, 2010 at 15:29 -
“But the person shot was not a mad dog, but a human being with a mental illness.”
To be honest, I’m not bothered whether he was a man with a mental illness, a Rottweiler or an ice-cream sundae. If he is an active and immediate danger to other members of the human race, coppers or not, then it is the duty of those charged with looking after our safety and security to act, and act decisively. After the threat is removed, I will feel sorry that a human being got himself into that situation, in a way that I would not feel sorry for a dog, but that’s afterwards.
If they hadn’t shot him then, and he had gone on to kill someone, would you be praising the police for their sensitivity and discretion? Or saying that they had a job to do and they didn’t do it?
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October 8, 2010 at 11:45 -
“The armed society is the polite society” As someone once said!
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October 8, 2010 at 11:57 -
It is the management of the scene that I take issue with – and that is not just a matter of blaming individual senior officers”
Though from reports there does seem to be one senior officer who can be blamed according to other reports about his competence – Ali Dizaei.
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October 9, 2010 at 04:26 -
51 armed officers? And Ali Dizaei grandstanding on scene? It’s as blatant as Winston Churchill being photographed waving a shotgun around during the Siege of Sidney Street.
Oh yes, didn’t all of those felons get shot on-site too?
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October 8, 2010 at 12:25 -
What concerns me most about the whole thing is the sense that it isn’t ‘right’ that he was treated like a chav on a housing estate, that the police should have realised that he was just ‘mad’, not ‘bad’.
That seems to be the underlying thread running through a lot of the opinion columns on this. It stinks, frankly.
Catch a facefull of birdshot from a Purdey or a cheap sawn-off, you’re just as disfigured. Or dead.
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October 8, 2010 at 13:20 -
That’s an interesting angle. How would the drama have played out if Saunders had been a chav on a housing estate ?
For me the whole question here boils down to the poor appraisal and management of risk by the police and had Saunders been a chav on a sink estate the risks and their evaluation would have been quite other.
The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is not a no-go area in which the presence of a uniform is an incitement to throw a brick.
I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts here because my instinct is that the stand-off would have lasted far longer and the chav might well still be alive.
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October 8, 2010 at 13:29 -
I recall a Brixton (I think) drive a few Christmases ago, where just such a ‘softly, softly, wait & see’ approach was indeed taken. The gunman promptly set fire to the flats.
So no, I don’t think it would have lasted longer. After all, it ended when it did because Saunders aimed his weapon at the officers.
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October 8, 2010 at 21:41 -
I’m assuming that the gunman in your Brixton story was also killed but your second para sort of niggles.
Why were the officers positioned so that he was able to “aim” at them (inverted commas because, as you noted earlier, he was thoroughly intoxicated with this and that) in the first place?
Can one be justified in being concerned that there might be a tendency to go mob handed at softer targets and to hang back from more sinewy ones.
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October 9, 2010 at 06:27 -
It turned out to be Hackney (curse my faulty memory!) and yes, they recovered his charred body after the fire was out.
“Can one be justified in being concerned that there might be a tendency to go mob handed at softer targets and to hang back from more sinewy ones.”
I suppose it’s possible.
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October 8, 2010 at 13:06 -
This affair reminds me of the final scene of the Dirty Harry film.
“Go ahead, punk, make my day.”
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October 8, 2010 at 13:12 -
Sorry Anna, but what are you going on about?
Did you want to see a proportional response to drunk depressed man waiving a gun around? What should they have done? Perhaps found a police officer off sick from depression, made him down a half liter of whiskey and thrust a shotgun in his hand before prodding him to stagger up the street blasting the occasional pot shot back at Mr Saunders until one of them eventually hit each other?
Maybe this is the sign of you going Ob’s way and flipping from small state libertarian to outright anarchism.
Personally I am perfectly happy to see a state that holds the monopoly on force. The body empowered to decide when force can and cannot be used. Now in my case this means elected lawmakers, judges and police commissioners, and everything else outsourced, but it’s still that group of elected individuals that decide how force can get used. Perhaps you are not prepared to grant a state with such a monopoly? is that where the difference arises, otherwise I struggle to understand your underlying point.
If an man is out of control with the ability to inflict lethal injuries on people and apparently showing little regard for not inflicting such injuries than how on earth can it not be right for the police to act. The only question then is what part do you object to. The fact that they brought sufficient overwhelming force to win a violent exchange if it was necessarily? or that it was, or what?
Many things make me question the state, this, emphatically, is not one of those things.
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October 8, 2010 at 13:24 -
Simon Cooke @11.45
From “Time Enough For Love” , Robert Heinlein
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October 8, 2010 at 13:35 -
There’s a ‘Not The Nine O’Clock News’ sketch where Teddy Kennedy reflects on the ‘lessons learned’ over Chappaquidick. Those being ‘Don’t drive across narrow bridges when you’re pissed out of your mind!’.
In similar vein, then, the lesson is ‘Don’t get ripped to the tits on vino collapso & charlie and fire your gun out of the window. The police WILL ventilate you, no matter what school you went to or how much land your grandfather owned’…
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October 8, 2010 at 14:45 -
Or that any force used must be justified, necessary and proportionate according to the Plod’s own guidelines, and the law, more importantly. What confidence should we have in armed police who prevent paramedics tending casualties on the one hand because of their unwillingness /inability to speedily neutralise perceived threat of a gunman (Cumbria) and the “he’s shot at The Old Bill, enough’s enough” briefing of an unnamed Met senior officer to his swatmen?
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October 8, 2010 at 15:33 -
Too many coppers, too many firearms, too little control, far too ready to shoot.
I speak as a qualified (multi-NRA-certificated, FWIW) shot.-
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October 9, 2010 at 14:33 -
And too, too much grandstanding from Ali Dizaei.
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October 8, 2010 at 15:37 -
I see Bingo Bango Bongo Regnant is playing its normal controversialist tune. Just ignore it.
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October 8, 2010 at 16:04 -
“I see Bingo Bango Bongo Regnant is playing its normal controversialist tune. Just ignore it.”
Good advice that you yourself James are unable to take. Having now followed me across 3 different blogs pandering to your sad obsession.
And don’t trouble yourself desperately thinking of some retort to draw me into a debate so you can start hurling obscenities again, or perhaps likening me to Hitler in record time. Just know that I recognise your whimpering regardless of what name you decide to use this week. And hence forth I shall continue with my policy of according you the attention you deserve, which is to say I shall ignore you completely, knowing that you are unable to do the same.
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October 9, 2010 at 13:41 -
James?
Shome mishtake shurely.
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October 8, 2010 at 17:16 -
Sorry, Anna, usually agree with you but am with Richard B on this one.
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October 8, 2010 at 23:54 -
“Sorry, Anna, usually agree with you but am with Richard B on this one.”
I usually agree with her too
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October 8, 2010 at 17:29 -
I don’t consider there to be any issue here.
A guy firing off shots gets shot by the police. End of.
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October 8, 2010 at 18:07 -
Why is it that cops can kill at whim with no repercussions while squaddies in war zones are being sent down for doing similar stuff under considerably more provocation? Just asking.
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October 8, 2010 at 19:08 -
Good to see the debate is vigorous! Not normally being one for the soft option, I have some unease about this case too. If there was real risk and a gun was pointed a police – then sorry mate, you gotta go. But I have a nagging doubt. Was there really a risk? Couldnt they just let him sober up and sleep it off, and pick up the pieces in the morning? I have the nagging sense of police getting high on the adrenalin of it all. Perhaps I am wrong.
Regards to all
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October 8, 2010 at 20:22 -
Where was Gazza?
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October 8, 2010 at 23:12 -
Why were so many policemen kept within range of Saunders, in danger from him?
Could not they have maintained a cordon, out of range of Saunder’s weapon, with back-up police safely behind the cordon?
Could not the back-up police have been graded on shooting skills, such as, say, sharpshooters and back-up shooters?
Could not the sharpshooters have had better, longer range weapons?
Could not personnel inside the cordon have been limited to the negotiating policeman, with advisors? Even there the negotiator could have been suitably protected, with clothing and some sort of shield, whilst the advisors need never have been exposed at all.
Could not tear gas projectiles have been projected through the windows?
Military experts in a terrorist situation use stun grenades and flashes to, well, “stun” the opposition.
In situations such as the Saunders case, wouldn’t it be better to call in the military for advice on, if all else fails, the best way to execute the target?
This necessitates some one in authority who can decide that an execution is necessary.
And even then, even after an execution decision has been made, if the target says something like, “…hang on, I cannot hear you properly…” could not that someone in authority signal a pause in operations, whilst this communication matter is resolved?-
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October 9, 2010 at 00:02 -
“Military experts in a terrorist situation use stun grenades and flashes to, well, “stun” the opposition.”
That is when there are hostages or innocent bystanders involved. If there are no such complications, I think you will find that the ‘Military’ go in mob-handed and shoot to kill from the start. The Police don’t have that luxury.
Always remember that the man had the option to end it all peacefully at any time – just lay down his weapon and raise his hands. Instead, he pointed it at police. If he was befuddled with drink and charged up on coke, that’s hardly the police’s fault. His actions, his responsibility, his outcome.
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October 9, 2010 at 06:30 -
“In situations such as the Saunders case, wouldn’t it be better to call in the military for advice on, if all else fails, the best way to execute the target?”
They did ok. They didn’t blow his legs off, like they did a horse in Yorkshire recently!
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October 9, 2010 at 00:02 -
“Yet 7 of them fired off 11 rounds and only five rounds found their target.”
I suppose it wasn’t 6 firing warning shots and one gun-nut hitting the target 5 times?
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October 9, 2010 at 10:07 -
Nope, all shots were fired off pretty much simultaneously. Once one started, all the others joined in.
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October 9, 2010 at 10:10 -
The South African Police advice on encountering a burglar in one’s home was to immediatiately put two rounds in his head and chest and then fire a warning shot into the skirting board. Case closed.
I wonder if the Gold Commander had dread thoughts of the overtime/time off in lieu impact of 59 policemen on his division’s budget? Shoot him now before the accounts department make me cancel the Awayday Teambuilding trip to Prague.
It’s a pity Gary Weddell wasn’t treated as seriously after he murdered his wife and proceeded to shoot his mother-in-law (prosecution witness) with an illegal shotgun. Oh, he was a Met Inspector so it wouldn’t be fair to hold him on remand.-
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October 9, 2010 at 15:39 -
“The South African Police advice on encountering a burglar in one’s home was to immediatiately put two rounds in his head and chest and then fire a warning shot into the skirting board. Case closed.”
I wonder if advanced forensic techniques have put paid to that approach? I do hope not…
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October 9, 2010 at 12:21 -
Sorry, Anna. I lost faith in the morals of our Justice System on the day they hung Derek Bentley for saying, “Let him have it Chris.” Even I, at the age of fourteen knew that he meant, “Give him the Gun”. Or at least there was a distinct possibility that this is what Bentley meant. I have never quite gotten over that one. I have fought The Death Penalty ever since. One has to remember that The Then Home Secretary could have overturned this verdict.
As for this one. There were so many other options. So many other things that they could have done. Not least for The Police to stay out of sight.
I have now come to the conclusion that anyone who wants to become a Policeman, is probably the least acceptable for the job. Anarchy is looking like a better option. Presuming that we don’t have it already. They treated him like a Rabid Dog.
I also have vast problems with the death of Moat. But that is another story.
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October 10, 2010 at 22:41 -
Yes, the police operation was appallingly managed, but…….Saunders’ wife is a highly educated lawyer, she knew he was a deeply disturbed man and an alcoholic, are you telling me she didn’t know he had a shotgun?
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