The Neanderthal Mentality of Female SNP Supporters.
What an insight for International Women’s Day into the Neanderthal mentality of a representative example of the women behind Alex Salmond’s prospective throne – Joan McAlpine , throwing her journalistic ability behind the knee-jerking nationalistic pretensions of the SNP bid for an independent Scotland.
Joan is described as ‘Scotland’s independent woman’ in the leader to the Daily Record piece. There is nothing ‘independent’ about the views expressed in her article, they are a throw back to the days when women were little more than property.
Joan on the referendum
“When Scotland lost its independence in 1707, the public didn’t have a say. That was nothing to do with the will of the people of Scotland, and now we have the chance to sort that out.”
Remind me, wasn’t that because Scotland was broke? A bit like RBS going broke methinks, the people of England didn’t get a say in whether we bailed that out or not, and now the English taxpayer is joined in unholy alliance with the Scots in bailing out RBS. Will RBS be claiming that is ‘an abusive relationship’ in 200 years time when everybody has conveniently forgotten the origins of the alliance?
For Joan now claims that the Union with the Kingdom is ‘an abusive relationship’. She says:
The union between Scotland and England is a bit like the marriage of a talented, well-educated girl with good prospects and her own income, to a domineering man.
She could easily stand on her own two feet thanks to a fortunate inheritance of oil revenue, exports of whisky, food and engineering – along with tourist attractions that bring in millions.
Joan, you might have a point if the marriage was being contracted today to a fresh faced young damsel – but that domineering husband of yours has been stuck with a raddled old witch that he plucked out of the gutter over 200 years ago, he has had his house robbed by her worthless friends, been royally abused by her relatives, paid for her breast implants, bought her a fine new wardrobe, educated her children by her feckless previous lovers – and now she has an inheritance, which he helped her to track down, now she decides that she is in an ‘abusive relationship’? Blimey, excuse him while he falls off his chair laughing.
Joan has since said that her analogy will help ‘female supporters see things more clearly’ – that is some low opinion she has of the average female Scottish voter, can it really be justified?
Then Joan has some weird ideas about the way that Westminster operates, a very selective memory you might say – but then she is a journalist after all.
Joan on David Cameron
“It’s very offensive for a man who only has one MP in Scotland to tell us what he is going to give us. It’s patronising.”
That one man speaks for all government, a government of our parliament. Including the 59 Scottish MPs. Amongst whose ranks lurk some of the most disgraceful MPs ever to sully parliament. Now if you want to talk about offensive – shall we start with Eric Joyce, Bill Walker, or perhaps Gordon Brown?
Isn’t it extraordinary how these Scottish women feel they are in an ‘abusive relationship’ with a husband who has supported them through good and bad times – yet now they have found their inheritance, they can’t wait to jump into bed with that randy old goat – Mr E.U.Brussels?
Yesterday, we had another of the foul mouthed SNP supporters happily mouthing off on Twitter regarding the deaths of six British soldiers. He attacked the soldiers for “protecting their country by bayoneting 10-year-olds” and said the majority of servicemen are “racist, arrogant, undereducated thugs who join up for the ‘thrill’ of killing humans.”
“There’s no British soldier fighting for anything I believe in. Bunch of child killers.”
The campaign for independence has its supporters, even amongst the English – some of whom would be delighted to see Scotland float off to wherever, but the political point is being lost in a barrage of commentary that originated on the tribal football terraces competing with outdated and offensive attitudes towards genuinely abused women. Even Willie Rennie was forced to warn Salmond:
“Alex Salmond must crack down on his Cybernats and their offensive bile.
Having received 3am visits on this blog from some of them, whom I shall charitably assume to be pissed as rats (though they may well be just as offensive stone cold sober) I hope Salmond is listening.
Some of his supporters do him no credit whatsoever.
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March 8, 2012 at 08:59 -
We’ve also had some exciting national developments in the parallel universe of the lovely Kingdom of Northumbria:
http://caedmonscat.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-im-going-to-tell-you-may-not-be.html-
March 8, 2012 at 09:27 -
Some excellent Salmond fishing, young Puss.
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March 8, 2012 at 11:49 -
I like them smoked – slowly – over an oak fire. Yummy!
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March 8, 2012 at 09:37 -
Of course in a marriage it is not just the woman who feels aggrieved who can initiate divorce proceedings.
For my part, my Scottish lass, I hate your spending habits, the dour tossers you send to Westminster, your delusions of income and the fact that your family foisted Blair then Brown upon me.
So regardless of what you may want or whine about, I want a divorce! How about a referendum on this one Dave?
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March 8, 2012 at 11:54 -
You forget your current PM. From where do you think Cameron’s come from? Maybe he is a sleeper agent?
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March 8, 2012 at 15:54 -
Wherever it was , I think they taught him how not to construct a sentence at the very least…
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March 8, 2012 at 18:15 -
Sorry JuliaM. It is very difficult typing on my phone. The autospell & small keyboard compound my febble grasp of English Grammar.
I doubt very much that his parents sent him to Eton to learn “how not to construct a sentence”
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March 8, 2012 at 19:27 -
Darling too was from north o’ the Border.
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March 12, 2012 at 00:56 -
Wales next, then N.I.
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March 8, 2012 at 09:37 -
Maybe it’s because of the parochial elitist and arrogant attitude of some outspoken Scots SNP people (and sadly they are the ones who often get the publicity, not the sensible ones) that England is so keen on Scottish independence.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:14 -
mfw! Of course it is the Elitist & arrogant SNP with their mixture of working class and professional class members that are the problem. Bringing up crazy ideas like facts, economics and democratic self determination.
It is just not fair that they are picking on those salt of the earth Etonian millionaires that run our country with only one MP.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:26 -
Come now 2Mac, did we complain when one of your Fettes College millionaires ran our country with only 59 MPs?
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March 8, 2012 at 18:22 -
I would assume you complained daily. Like all right minded people who could see through Bliar.
Tony is as Scottish as he is Socialist.
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March 8, 2012 at 18:30 -
McBroon the one-eyed idiot, is without doubt both, however.
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March 8, 2012 at 19:36 -
Hen Brown,
The majority on this particular site are decent reasonable people. Yes they are misinformed about Scottish economics and Joan who is a lovely and feisty woman.
They cannot be blamed when an opinion is formed by hearing one side for decades. They judge Scotland’s politicians on labour muppets sent south and unionist media quotes.
If you have a point to make, a joke to share or a gripe to air send it to Anna and she will often publish it.
Cool heads are what we need at the moment as well as friends in the south now and in the future.
If you judged Scots on Blair, Brown, Campbell, Murphy, Fanny Alexander, Charles Kennedy etc you would be cynical too.
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March 8, 2012 at 09:41 -
Anna, you forgot to mention ‘Gorbals Mick’…shame on you…lol
Seriously though, I should not be sorry to see the back of this whining bunch.
They’re quick enough to take our money then complain that we’re not giving them praise for taking it. Get thee gone!
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March 8, 2012 at 18:29 -
I wonder what “money” you are talking about? No English Tax payer money comes north.
I assume you mean the statistical manipulation presented in every newspaper in the land and by every Unionist politician to always quote Scottish figures on a Per Capita basis. Being small in population this provides a statistical basis for the Barnett Formula.
If you would care to indulge yourself in some learning then pop along to the ONS or the Scottish Government website and read the raw figures.
The only Subsidy Scotland receives is via Government Borrowing for the PSBR like every part of the UK hence the National Debt of over £1 Trillion. The government borrows less for Scotland than any other part of the UK except London/SE.
If we leave we shall take our 8.4% portion of National Debt as well as 8.4% of all UK Assets like the BOE, Military equipment, Overseas Territories, etc.If you think the Marriage was hell. Imagine what the divorce will be like.
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March 8, 2012 at 09:41 -
Give all of Britain a vote in the threatened referendum. Salmond will get his kingdom, the Scottish MPs will go home (please!) and the rest of Britain will be governed from a leaner Westminster by Tories or LibDems for the foreseeable future.
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March 8, 2012 at 09:58 -
March 8, 2012 at 12:44 -
Great Idea,
Lets Give all of China a vote on Tibet, All of Europe a vote on UK joining the Euro, all of Russia a vote on independence for ex soviet states, India a vote of Kashmir….etc.
It is a well within your power to use the 90% of Wasteminister that English MPs control to have a referendum on English Independence. I would not demand my vote in such a decision. It is none of my business what the people of another nation wish to do with their own self determination.
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March 8, 2012 at 19:59 -
@Friend: Very Good! If we in the bit of the United Kingdom that isn’t populated by the Scots had a vote then those ‘over the border’ would undoubtedly get the boot from the Union and good riddance, I say!
Salmond and his crew have a bloody cheek… they must know they stand absolutely no chance of Scotland making a go of being an independent country. They would be forever dependent on the IMF and on being bailed out by Europe. We already subsidise the place. How else do they afford to give the locals free prescriptions and free places at University.
I believe that the threat by Salmond has at its heart the goal of ‘Devolution Max’ and not actual independence.
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March 8, 2012 at 10:32 -
Whining Porridge Wogs………..what can you do?
If I win £46m on the EuroMillions, I might just rebuild Hadrian’s Wall.
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March 8, 2012 at 10:42 -
We’d lose half of Northumbria if you did that, and I quite like the borders – and it’s people who have one foot either side of the line and take a robustly sensible view on life – so could you make it the Antonine Wall?
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March 8, 2012 at 11:17 -
If you fix the lottery win I’ll see what I can do.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:40 -
There are a fair few North of the Antonine Wall I know who would be only too delighted by a refurb…
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March 8, 2012 at 12:00 -
Porridge Wogs? Cannot attack the argument! Attack the man. How about making a positive case for political union.
Although I do eat porridge for breakfast except on the couple of days we call summer.
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March 8, 2012 at 13:16 -
Calm down – just a light-hearted quip.
Seriously though?
Part of me really cherishes the Union because I think collectively, the English, Irish, Welsh & Scots have achieved a great deal of good in the world………..many have died, and to put the Union asunder because of misplaced passion would dishonour those left behind in foreign fields.
Another part of me thinks; (i) great 40-odd fewer Labour MPs in the Commons, or (ii) great no more Browns, Blairs and other arseholes polluting British politics, or (iii) let’s see what a clusterfuck Salmond and his tartan nincompoops make of governing the country especially with the euro for currency and with 8% of the national debt hanging round their necks, and, (iv) let’s see how long it takes for the Scottish people to ask to be let back into the Union……..asuming Alex ‘let democracy take its course Salmond allows another referendum.
Personally, I think that referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn or not – I think the people who produced some of the greatest engineers the world has ever seen, have more sense than to vote for you loons.
We’re stuck with each other Mr. McPorridge Wog……….unless of course the English were allowed to vote.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:09 -
Of course, we are too poor, too stupid, too inferior to run a small country on the edge of the largest trading block in the world. Of course there are plenty of examples of countries that left the Empire begging to get back in. I am sure USA, Canada, Ireland, Australia & New Zealand regularly beg to be governed by London again.
I shall try to plot a middle course for this “Marriage”. It is not ideal but would allow enough Independence to address economic, social and educational matters. Effectively it would be devolving all national powers but retaining a united International posture.
Consider a compromise. Where you get what you want. I get most of I want and we get to maintain all the history that binds us, the UK overseas territories and Security Council seat after all it would be foolish to abondon the Falklands and the British Antartic territories to drill all the Oil themselves.
A Federal Union of the British Isles trading as a Sterling Zone and members of the EFTA but not part of the Euro project. Ireland may even wish to join the Sterling trading zone afterall the BOE is already providing lender of last resort services.
Defence, NATO (even the bloody nukes located 25 miles from our population centre can be kept in Scotland but moved to one of the thousands of deserted areas.) The location was all about Labour votes not security.
Public services, national & local government spending, overseas aid, national debt, etc would be raised and funded within each country. We would be responsible for funding our own armed services but they would provide contributions to the UK obligations in NATO.
Health, Education and Law are already devolved and always have been seperate.
This is Independence Light / Devo Max give or take a few details. This has about 90% support and will therefore this is what the Unionists are trying to stop being the second question on the referendum.
This referendum should never have happened. The List voting system was designed specifically to stop an SNP majority and therefore block the chance to pass a referendum bill in Holyrood
You just wait and see what Big Eck puts on the referendum. For now he will watch how the Unionist camp deploy. The NO vote, The Not Yet vote & the Devo Plus group.
The other certainty to our favour is the collapse of the Lib Dems. They stand on a Platform with the Tories which is political suicide in Scotland. Will Labour be able to stand on a platform with them or will self interest once again motivate the Labour ranks in Glasgow.
Within 1 year i suspect the no camp will be divided into “The People Front of Britain” and “The British Peoples Front” fighting like ferrets in a sack.
We did not spend 300 years in a Union with London without learning how to divide and conquer.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:12 -
March 8, 2012 at 15:47 -
You don’t get it do you?
It’s a straight up ‘fuck off or status quo’ deal. None of this ‘devo max’ or ‘independence light’ rubbish; this is not about beverges …………you’re in it or you’re not.
And as I say, if you go, split the oil revenue, take your share of the debts and adopt the euro. We’ll pay rent on Faslane and the air-bases (proportional to the benefit Scotland derives too).
And we ain’t going to stand for paying over the top for your wind power electricity either.
If you’re staying, then there’s no more to be said.
If you’re going – good luck with all the new taxes you’ll be paying.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:54 -
I suppose if we stuck to the wee wifey analogy, “Devo Max” would be wifey throwing husband out of house while retaining access to his bank acct. I fully agree that Scots should be free to choose to divorce or not, but I would suggest that the husband must have some say in any other arrangements. Hence there should only be 1 choice on the ballot paper if only the wifey is voting “In or Out”.
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March 8, 2012 at 13:37 -
The case for Scotland staying in the Union is that if it leaves it will become the first European country to join the Third World.
Seriously, here are a couple of questions for you:
(1) If Scotland is independent then will its taxpayers alone take over the burden of RBS’s debt?
(2) Would an independent Scotland join the Euro, or keep the pound?
(3) The SNP’s policy is that if Scotland gets its independence the Trident fleet will have to leave Faslane. How does that square with the fact that Salmond lobbied the MOD to keep the base open (and to preserve 11,000 jobs) two years ago?
(4) The SNP says it will preserve the 7 Scottish bns/regts as part of a new national army. How’s it going to pay for them, and where – given the fact that most British Army facilities are South of Hadrian’s Wall – is it planning to base them?-
March 8, 2012 at 15:51 -
I will cut to the chase with my “Claymore of truth and Targe of justice” MacAitken 2012. Find below my answers.
(1) If Scotland is independent then will its taxpayers alone take over the burden of RBS’s debt
In 1998 a prudent Scottish bank funded by deposits was taken over by a powermad maniac. They purchased Natwest 3 x RBS in size then purchased another 20 financial institutions such as Mellon Financial Corp, Commonwealth Bancorp, Churchill Insurance, Direct Line and Ulster Bank First Active etc plus many overseas institutions.
If RBS Group bailout was to UK wide businesses and assets. if RBS collapsed then entire UK financial services would have collapsed. The US government provided tens of billions of dollars to RBS to bail out the US businesses, the dutch and other nations did the same. The Scottish government would have been responsbile for bailing out Scottish divisions only. Your point about Scotland having to pay to bailout Natwest savers in Surrey is as baseless as UK Government paying to bail out US savers in Florida.
(2) Would an independent Scotland join the Euro, or keep the pound?
Keep pound for foresable future. It is a tradable currency. We own 8.4% of Bank of England Assets & liabilities. The Euro is doomed better to work towards a stable Sterling Trading Zone.
(3) The SNP’s policy is that if Scotland gets its independence the Trident fleet will have to leave Faslane. How does that square with the fact that Salmond lobbied the MOD to keep the base open (and to preserve 11,000 jobs) two years ago?
Some object on principal, some object on the closeness of a Nuclear base at the heart of our population centre when we have 5 thousand KM of near deserted coastline to pick a suitable spot away from our major cities. Mostly this is a great bargaining chip for Salmond. No English region would want nukes but every English MP wants Nukes. I am sure it will all be OK after we divide the other Assets & Liabilities.
(4) The SNP says it will preserve the 7 Scottish bns/regts as part of a new national army. How’s it going to pay for them, and where – given the fact that most British Army facilities are South of Hadrian’s Wall – is it planning to base them?
Well noticed. We already pay 8.4% of UK military spending as part of money “Attibuted to Scotland and spend on its behalf” but very little of this is spend in Scotland. Most of our battalions are Infantary which is cheap to run. We have plenty locations for military bases and already incur the expenditure by hundreds of millions more than is spent. We could have a larger military force and still spend less money.
A more apt question would be how are England going to afford to pay for military bases currently subsidised by Scots tax payers.
Glad I could help.
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March 8, 2012 at 10:36 -
I sometimes have the feeling that much of the Nationalist rantings are like the impassioned outpourings of a rebellious teenager trying to grow up. Lots of “I hate you!” and “You don’t understand” followed by a door-slamming session. They still expect the food on the table at tea-time, though.
They’ll get over it. Just give ‘em time to grow up.
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March 8, 2012 at 10:39 -
Edit to add – There are plenty of more level-headed, mature people who’s voices have not been much heard. Yet.
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March 9, 2012 at 16:27 -
Hello, I’m here.
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March 8, 2012 at 10:40 -
Deary, Deary Me!
It is not often I feel offended but I can feel a slight offense welling. Possibly some truth hurts but factual inaccuracies litter the post(sorry Anna) and the comments.
I am a Cybernat, support Independence, hate Wasteminster but have no hatred for English people just politicians.
The SNP is unlike other UK political parties. Our reason for existing is improving Scotland. Our political views vary. I am slightly to the right of Genghis Khan politically and our supporters spread across the political divide to die hard lefties. We put our factional divisions aside for the independence movement for now.
Union 1707 – The King in London was provided with full details of plans for Darien scheme. The English lords provided info & encouraged the Spanish to attack & destroy it. The English colonies refused to trade even though we were joined by Union of Crown. When Darien failed Westminster bribed certain politicians to Vote for Union. There was riots across the land. The wealth of a few families was preserved at the loss of a nation. It was great example of political dark arts not a rescue. The English tried and failed by force for hundreds of years but won through bribery.
RBS- if RBS failed who would have lost money? Majority of UK business is in England via Natwest. The dodgy dept from USA was international, the re-insurance claims would cripple London SE. The Government were not bailing out a Scottish bank they were bailing out a UK institution. An independent Scotland would not be paying to bail out English savers or investors. The RBS is Scottish in name alone. The assets it acquired in last 10 years have dwarfed it’s origins as a high street bank (yes. Fred fucked it)
MPs – Scottish labour MPs are cunts, the Tories have one and the Fib Dems a handful for time being. The lack of Scottish labour MPs would not have changed a single election result since 1900 if they were not there. We need proper government not remote management by Global trotting troughers. We need focus. Not fuckwitts.
Abusive Marriage- It is easy for the abuser to deny the abuse and call it love. How many of you posting can say you have studied Scottish history, lived in Scotland governed by muppets and monkeys with red rosettes. I grew up in the Highlands where hundreds of thousands were evicted by Red coats, were entire communities were murdered, exploited, deported to slavery, force on boats, burned out, by Government forces and Londons hand. Your outrage at the accusation reminds of the response of the Catholic Church.
This is the past, it is true but cannot be changed. We wish to move onwards together but in different formation. As friends who were once foes. As equals in a world of opportunity and mutual respect. Occasionally we would like to beat you at sports.
You are 10 times our size and will always cast a shadow over our land and people but we should not bicker over which politicians control our destinies. We should just ensure the people can get rid of the ones the are shit. Independence will allow us to insist politicians focus on Scotland to keep their jobs. A politician you cannot vote out is tyranny.
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March 8, 2012 at 10:50 -
I don’t really have a problem with the idea of Scottish independence. It’s a point of view, and one that deserves to have the pros and cons properly and soberly debated.
However, a lot of the noises emanating from parts of the Nat camp at the moment do seem to be a bit fast-and-loose with history and economic facts, and comparing the Union to an abusive marriage is laughable.
England could, in 1707, have made Scotland into Scotlandshire, a county of England. It was by far the more powerful of the two nations at that time. It didn’t – Scotland retained much of it’s independence – in law, in local government, in religion, in culture.
The Nats should be careful how they present their arguments. They are currently in danger of just being laughed off the park.
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March 8, 2012 at 11:41 -
As Engineer has just said, there are plenty of level headed mature voices which are being drowned by the ridiculous laughter inducing comments of a few knee jerking nationalists.
I have the greatest respect for you 2Mac, you are always willing to engage in debate, and even when you feel ‘an offense welling’, you don’t descend to ad hominem abuse. All credit to you.
A pity there are not more like you. Maybe there are, they are just being drowned out.-
March 8, 2012 at 12:40 -
Thanks Anna,
There are many in the Nationalist camp who are reasonable and like all political movements we have our total numpties. Compare the Scottish Nationalist movement for Independence to the Irish example. We feel no les passionately about our self government but we opt to set about this in a peaceful, reasonable and economic basis. We are trying to reformat the relationship to bring decision making within the political control of the people so we can ensure better government. Could you really imagine anyone could make more mess than the last Labour and Tory governments.
Due to the recent decline in Labour in Scotland many of the previous Marxists muppets have come across to the SNP. They are like born-again Scots. A little too rapid and exitable.
We have many problems made in Scotland, caused by Scots and nurtured by Wasteminster’s Tory Apathy and Labours Self Interest.
We have no levers of power to deliver solutions. Indepedence will not bring Utopia. It will bring responsibility and fiscal reality. It will refocus the minds on the priorities.
In the times of economic uncertainty we need a government focussed with a can do attitude. Not a government of party placemen who spent one day a week speaking in an empty Chamber in London during Scottish questions.
We need to accept every pound spent, requires to be raised. It is easy blaming “Others” for your problems. It is considerably more effective to accept your problems as your own responsbility and fix them.
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March 8, 2012 at 12:47 -
“like all political movements we have our total numpties.”
As a past member of the old Libertarian Party…..sheesh! you should have met some of ours!“Due to the recent decline in Labour in Scotland many of the previous Marxists muppets have come across to the SNP. They are like born-again Scots. A little too rapid and excitable.”
Now that is an interesting observation. I wasn’t aware of that.
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March 8, 2012 at 13:19 -
Didn’t you know that Alex Salmond was expelled from the Party (but quickly reinstated) in 1982 because of his left wing views – The 79 Group?
And the SNP’s shady fascist roots?
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March 8, 2012 at 13:07 -
Anna.
Compare and contrast your posting above with 2mac’s coments, how can you on the one hand criticise Joan McAlpine (a bit of a twitter firebrand) for being full of hate then go on to say things like:
“…but that domineering husband of yours has been stuck with a raddled old witch that he plucked out of the gutter over 200 years ago, he has had his house robbed by her worthless friends, been royally abused by her relatives, paid for her breast implants, bought her a fine new wardrobe, educated her children by her feckless previous lovers – and now she has an inheritance, which he helped her to track down, now she decides that she is in an ‘abusive relationship’? Blimey, excuse him while he falls off his chair laughing.”
Its a wee bit hypocritical, there is much more in the way of insult in what you’ve written than in what 2mac wrote.
How can you talk about level headed debate on both sides when Nationalists are subjected to the kind of crass, ill-informed jibes from English commentators, even although our problem is categorically not with the English people but with the British Political system which doesn’t represent any one in the UK any more.
Other than that, 2mac covered everything else.
I read your blog most days but this posting is so full of misplaced bile its just a bit disappointing.
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March 8, 2012 at 13:25 -
I don’t have a problem with anything 2Mac wrote. I said so didn’t I?
Nor did I say Joan McAlpine was ‘full of hate’ – I said we were liable to fall off our chairs laughing at her analogy.
By all means criticise me for what I have said, but please, don’t take me to task for what you imagine I said.
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March 8, 2012 at 14:26 -
I wasn’t saying you had a problem with what he (2Mac) wrote, I was asking you to compare and contrast the tone of what you both wrote, nor was I inferring you asserted JMcA was full of hate, again, I was merely drawing a comparison between her comments and your own.
That to one side, we need a new anology because the ‘troubled marriage’ one is not ideal or atleast who plays the characters isn’t. I think of it like this: There is a troubled marriage between The British Establishment and Scottish Nationalism, while they bicker and quibble we (you and I and everyone else in all component countries of the UK) the children are suffering, some of us have taken sides, some haven’t got a clue and while others couldn’t care less.
The key point is, the kids don’t have a problem with each other, the parents do.
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March 8, 2012 at 13:09 -
Just a teensy point, 2mac,
If RBS is a United KIngdom responsibility then isn’t the oil in British waters also a United Kingdom asset? It was laid down hundreds of millions of years before Scotland was even Irish and not even dicovered until fifty odd years ago, let alone exploited commercially (with purely Scottish capital???)
It would appear, therefore, that the growth of Scottish nationalism – with its shady roots in pre-WW2 fascism (I admire Scottish patriotism, however) has more to do with what JM Barrie dubbed “A Scotsman on the make.” Don’t get me wrong, self-interest is a noble cause. Would Scotland still wish for independence without its geological lottery win?-
March 8, 2012 at 14:00 -
RBS is Scottish, but most of the money in it is English. So so long as a Scotish government invoked the Icelandic solution then the only pain would be on the English side. The Icelandic solution is to let the company go under, get bought out, whatever but without any government involvement. The Icelandians (?) are basically refusing to allow their government to recompense account holders and foriegn governments for something that a private bank did.
I think that’s right.
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March 8, 2012 at 17:56 -
“for something that a private bank did.”
The private bank was regulated by the Icelandic government and operating within its jursidiction. The Icelanders were happy to tax it during the good years and so have an obligation to clean up the mess. Swings and roundabouts. Otherwise they are as bad as a bloke who disappears when he gets his girlfriend pregnant.
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March 8, 2012 at 19:40 -
Icelanders also have another great strength:-
“The trial of Iceland’s former Prime Minister Geir Haarde, who is accused of negligence in his handling of the 2008 financial crisis that severely undermined the Icelandic economy, ………..”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17256626
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March 8, 2012 at 19:42 -
Brian,
The internationally accepted rules on external maritime borders that the UK has signed up to were modified in 1999 by Blair in the “The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999″ instead of going off at right angles as all other International borders do the England Scotland maritime border heads 56 degrees 36 minutes North well past Carnoustie contrary to all internationally accepted rules as it is an internal border.
Come Independence or Devo Max this border will be either put right or submitted to the UN/ICCJ for a ruling. Every martime expert consulted will follow the internationally accepted Right Angle from land. To claim the Oil is like the RBS defies reason and justification. One is an national mineral deposit located within the borders of a country. The other is an international financial business with an HQ in Scotland. Are you using Unionist Logic or smoking crack?
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March 9, 2012 at 10:03 -
Ad hominem attack – you’ve obviously won your argument and can now tackle the man.
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March 8, 2012 at 13:21 -
Apart from the South East of England/London Scotland is the next highest performing area within the UK per Capita based on every source of Government Figures from Edinburgh & London.
Many of you may or maybe not familiar with the 5th constituent part of the UK. The “Extra-Regio Territory” The ONS describes it as “This accounts for economic activity that cannot be assigned to any specific region. For the UK, this consists of offshore oil and gas extraction…” It is used to allow MPs to quote statistics while hiding truth.
The other more difficult manipulation is “Spent on Behalf of Scotland” this is when take government expenditure and apply 8.4% calculation to attribute this as Scottish across all departments. Examples can be gleamed like the Military/Civil Service/Embassies/Government Depts where billions are spend on our behalf but never within our economy. This is how UK Government has alway skewed subsidy to London/SE.
Onto Scottish Economic Data:
Here is the latest summany from http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/03/9525“The key results for 2010-11 are as follows:
In 2010-11, total public sector expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the UK Government, Scottish Government and all other tiers of the public sector, plus a per capita share of debt interest payments, was £63.8 billion. This is equivalent to 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure.
In 2010-11, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £45.2 billion, (8.3 per cent of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £45.9 billion (8.3 per cent of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £53.1 billion (9.6 per cent of UK total public sector revenue).
In 2010-11, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a deficit of £14.3 billion (12.0 per cent of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £13.6 billion (11.2 per cent of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £6.4 billion (4.4 per cent of GDP) including an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue.
In 2010-11, the UK as a whole ran a current budget deficit, including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, of £97.8 billion (6.6 per cent of GDP).
In 2010-11, Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £18.6 billion (15.6 per cent of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £17.9 billion (14.7 per cent of GDP) when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £10.7 billion (7.4 per cent of GDP) when a geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.
In 2010-11, the equivalent UK position including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, referred to in the UK Public Sector Accounts as ‘net borrowing’, was a deficit of £136.1 billion (or 9.2 per cent of GDP).”
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March 8, 2012 at 14:10 -
Not the old ‘the oil belongs to Scotland’ gag again. It doesn’t all belong to you, some belongs to England, and most belongs to Shetland – who might vote to secede from Scotland – you never know eh?
Tell us how many of your countrymen subsist on the public purse – both the ones who do get up every morning, and the ones who only get up on Thursday mornings.
RBS is irrelevant. If you wan to go, take 8% of the deficit with you. Make sure you pay in advance – because we will have to apply a 15% surcharge after you join the euro…………….unless of course Salmond plans to defy the legislation and not join the EU………in which case what will you do for a currency?
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March 8, 2012 at 18:36 -
Have you just returned from a long trip up Uranus, or was it a coma you were in? Try and get someone to do a defrag and clear you cache as you are in danger of crashing. If you wear a wig and control the slobbering no one will know about the full frontal lobotomy.
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March 8, 2012 at 15:26 -
‘[We] had another of the foul mouthed SNP supporters happily mouthing off on Twitter regarding the deaths of six British soldiers. He attacked the soldiers for “protecting their country by bayoneting 10-year-olds” and said the majority of servicemen are “racist, arrogant, undereducated thugs who join up for the ‘thrill’ of killing humans.”
“There’s no British soldier fighting for anything I believe in. Bunch of child killers.”’
I’m struggling to find actual figures here, but IIRC a disproportionate percentage of the UK armed forces are Scottish (compared to the actual population of Scotland).
So aside from offering a gratuitous insult to anyone currently serving in the Army in particular (which does not sit well with me), this cretin is prepared to label many of his compatriots as ‘child killers’. I wonder if he’d be ready to make that comment when confronted face to face with (say) one of the A&SH?
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March 8, 2012 at 15:56 -
What was the twitter account name. I would be interested in having a quite word. Guaranteed some lefty muppet. Probably a student in central belt with an entirely more complicated idea of Celtic Nationalism.
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March 8, 2012 at 16:43
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March 8, 2012 at 16:14 -
For the record I support our troops. Not the mission they are sent on by spineless politicians. Military force is for eliminating threats not nation building amoungst our enemies while being picked off. There are few roads in Afghanistan so planting IEDs is easy.
Labour would not pay for helicopters to transport our troops. Now our children bleed in the sand to protect the opium production of Karsi’s family empire. Taliban spotters sit outside the bases and we cannot shoot them. They telephone on the route of the troops and we can do nothing as they have no weapon. The IED is planted. Soldiers die. Politicains talk shite and the process repeats itself.
We should use the miltary to Kill our enemies or protect us from our enemies but we should never leave them amoungst our enemies with their hands tied to act as nation builders amoungst savages, under resourced and with operational guidelines that give the enemy the advantage.
We should simply stop these islamic nutters coming to the UK in the first place and we would not have to worry about Afghanistan. Let them evolve or die. It is the interference in Africa and Asia by outside forces that sustains despots, madmen and ideological conflicts.
They will work it out or perish.
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March 8, 2012 at 16:39 -
2Mac –
I don’t know who it is – you’d have to ask Anna R – but from online chats with Nats I can say that it’s not an uncommon sentiment.
As for the rights and wrongs of current intervention, we could probably debate this four hours, but I am pleased to see that you don’t subscribe to the ‘baby-killing bastards’ cliche.
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March 8, 2012 at 18:39 -
We also have the MI5 stooge Adam Busby who lives in some hovel in Dublin claiming he has an Army ready to invade the UK as soon as he gets the signal. MI5 are and will be very busy between now and the referendum, go figure.
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March 8, 2012 at 16:35 -
At the top of this page, is that a picture of Julia Middleton the head of Common Purpose?
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March 8, 2012 at 17:41 -
I am Scottish though now live in SE England where my son and grandchildren are. The rest of my family and friends are still there and not one of them says they will vote for independence, many dislike Salmond personally, even a relative who actually works for the Scottish Government and now Salmond. Sometimes he irritates me so much that I hope the vote does go his way, devo max sounds like having your cake and eating it to me. It is a pity that Labour ever started down this road but we are where we are. After Brown and devolution I do not think there could ever be another Scottish PM and the West Lothian Q does have to be answered. Trouble was that, except Donald Dewar, none of the Labour MPs gave up Westminster for Holyrood and, as I expected, it was full of jumped up ex council members etc. Shame we all used to get along just fine when I was young. I do think independence is a matter for Scotland but further devolution should be a matter for the UK and some sort of federal system might be the answer with an English parliament. From what I hear in this area most people would vote to give Scotland independence gladly! all part of Salmond’s scheme to totally turn off the English completely.
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March 8, 2012 at 18:37 -
Nice debate; rare.
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March 8, 2012 at 18:52 -
Like so many unionist commentators on Scotland, most of whom have never been here, you resort to cheap nasty lies to try and make some spurious point. No where in the article does Joan compare the present Scottish constitutional midden with domestic violence or abuse, that is your duplicitous conflation of her words. Your hysteria is hilarious, you have jumped on to the latest unionist mythological bandwagon to try and score a hit against the SNP and Scottish independence. The harder you knock us the stronger we become. After posh git Cameron popped up here to patronise us and eat some porridge, the membership of the SNP surged, every time he and Osborne or Moore opens their lying traps the same thing happens, so keep it coming Muppets you are doing a great job. Joan is a courageous journalist and politician, who could run rings round you, and I love her for it. we need many more like her in Scotland. She is the kind of modern fiesty women Scotland loves, who restores our faith in ourselves.
For the record and from The Record here is the bit you conveniently left out:
“Eventually she recognises the relationship for what it is – an abuse of power. Her husband makes the most appalling investment decisions that threaten to bankrupt them both – macho stuff like war games and a £100billion new Trident weapons system – the ultimate boy’s toy. That was money she could have spent on the kids’ future.”
http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/joanmcalpine/2012/03/women-understand-independence-instinctiv.html
A rather different kettle of fish now.
However never let the truth get in the way of a good racist rant, your followers are wetting them selves as they pour out their racist bigotry, well done, England must be so proud of you.
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March 8, 2012 at 19:32 -
A few points Henbroon:
For influencial debate that may make people think about their postions please read 2mac’s post above.
I have noticed a certain vanity amongst loud proclaimers of SNP righteousness – they believe themselves to be one flesh with Scotland. You are not. There are far more people in Scotland who disagree with the SNP’s postion on independence than agree. Something Mr Salmond acknowledges.
If anyone is hysterical here it is you.
If anyone is racist (and snobbish … ‘posh git? really? that’s the best you can come up with?) it’s you.
And as a Scottish person (albeit an ex-pat) I am most certainly not proud of you. Nor am I particularly impressed by Joan McAlpine nor have I ever been impressed by Mr Salmond and his decidedly shakey grasp of historical facts. And I DO visit Scotland, regularly. And thoughtful as 2mac’s post are, and well researched, I am a unionist. It isn’t simply about money, nothing ever is.
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March 8, 2012 at 20:41 -
Salmond did himself no favours by asserting that Cameron was ‘interfering in Scottish affairs’ by making a statement about independence and the referendum. The UK is a union of four nations; the idea that the Prime Minister of that Union cannot make a statement on something affecting the future of that Union is ludicrous. For me, Salmond lost most of his credibility at that point.
And just for the record, I was born in Inverness – so I’m not an English numpty making sarky remarks for the sake of it.
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March 8, 2012 at 21:26 -
Agreed Engineer. Salmond is a bit of a twit on that.
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March 8, 2012 at 22:39 -
@Hen Broon: I most fervently hope that if and when you and your kind win independence in the referendum that this will be the last we will hear from you and, especially from that arrogant windbag Salmond! I think it utterly foolish for you that you think that you speak for the majority of Scots, or that the result of the referendum is a foregone conclusion.
I, for one, wish it was, but I may yet be disappointed and we get to keep all of you! I think that the majority will realise which side their bread is really buttered on and we will end up with ‘Devolution Max’, unfortunately.
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March 8, 2012 at 19:49 -
Congrats Anna, this posting is just like a 5th November display.
Light the blue touch paper, & retire immediately to enjoy the fireworks. ……..
Incidentally, bravo to 2Mac for such spirited defences to cruel baiting.
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March 8, 2012 at 19:56 -
The fracture of the Union will create two new nations, not one and the potential sundering has many licking their lips in anticipation of the new economic and political realities. Politicians and bureaucrats, imperialists building a new empire of desks. Diplomats, lawyers, bean counters, lobbyists re negotiating treaties and agreements, dotting I`s and crossing T`s and taking their time and submitting invoices over it. Spivs and cowboys seeking contracts. Edinburgh and London will be swarming with these leeches and parasites; they are already but they will descend in their swarms.
The English and Scots will still be united in their upkeep of these drones and careerists. And nationalists of all stripes might care to reflect on what constitutes true independence in a world dominated by the EU, NATO, GATT, IMF, global bond markets…..
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March 8, 2012 at 20:20 -
2Mac,
congratulations to you sir, for not losing your rag in the face of such arrogant ignorance.
To the rest of you: this may be a game for you, an interesting wee political aside in between writing smug little comments on your libertarian blogs but it will shape the future for me and my family. Most of you are coming fairly fresh to the concept of Scottish independence: the first time I spoke in public in its favour was in about 1974 and my conviction that it is the right thing for Scotland has grown ever since.
I have seen not one good argument in favour of the union given here, just the usual insults. However, as I said when Matt Wardman had his wee go the other day, keep it up, it just riles the uneducated and will swell the vote for independence.
Please do not make the mistake that many do and conflate the SNP with the Scottish people. The period immediately following independence will be turbulent as new political groupings struggle for influence within the country and I think that several new parties will emerge before the end of 2014.
The SNP are not Scotland and Scotland is not the SNP.
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March 8, 2012 at 21:24 -
‘To the rest of you: this may be a game for you, an interesting wee political aside in between writing smug little comments on your libertarian blogs but it will shape the future for me and my family.’
Actually it will shape everyone in the UK’s future. One of the things I find particularly unpleasant about Mr Salmonds posturing on independence is his frequent assertion that only somone who lives in Scotland has any business commenting on it. Only people who live in Scotland at the time of the referendum will vote in it – wherever they were born. That’s fair enough. I am scottish but no longer live there so I don’t get a vote. However I have every business commenting on it as does everyone else in the UK. Scotland has been part of the UK for a very long time and that makes this referendum of interest to everyone. And there have been plenty of Scottish Libertarians BTW.
While I am sure there are some people enjoying the wind-up (something else Scots don’t have a monopoly on), there are plenty of others on here making perfectly cogent points. Certainly about the perjorative tone of the debate from BOTH sides of the question.
I am smug about many things but not about this. And for your information Mr Santimonious, I have friends and family in Scotland who will also be affected by this – but they are not being nearly such a drama queen about it. But then that may be because they aren’t impressed by the argument FOR independence. And given the status quo it is for you to make the case FOR independence. That hasn’t happened for me but that may be because I have never fallen for the SNP’s partial, one-eyed, tartan-tinted view of history. I have said it elsewhere – the SNP are the most prone to seeing themselves as one and the same as Scotland. Are you surprised then that others outside of Scotland, who only hear Mr Salmond smirking his way through interview after interview maintaining that arrogant fiction, believe it?
I am sorry for you – really. You are clearly dedicated to the cause. But the indictors are that your simply have not taken the population with you.
And I will carry on commenting on this issue – not just because I was born in Scotland and spent the first half of my life there, but because I am a UK citizen. rssssssppppp!
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March 8, 2012 at 21:55 -
Mr Barnes,
I think you’ll agree that the major effect will be on those living within the territorial limits of the new Scotland. I spend much of my working life in parts of the UK that are not Scotland, and I find that a majority of people not only have no real concept of the current political situation, but have never visited our country, and know little of it. One or two have not even known that there is more than one country in the UK.
I agree with you that the SNP are prone to seeing themselves as Scotland, but I and many others do not. The reason why Mr Salmond is such an effective interviewee is that not because of his warm and cuddly personality but because he tends to have the facts on his side.
You are right, I am dedicated to the cause, but the cause is not the SNP. During the second half of your life, if you are over about 25 years old, I think you’ll find that attitudes have changed markedly and the population is moving towards self-determination.
And thank you for your kind valediction – it rather neatly summarises the unionist argument.
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March 9, 2012 at 10:33 -
Yet again a load of assumptions.
1. I am not a Mr
2. I visit scotland very regularly (remember the friends and family bit?)
3. We do discuss the independence debate
4. Poll after Poll after Poll indicates the majority of voters in scotland will not vote for IndependenceJust becasue you believe, doesn’t mean others do. What New Scotland BTW? It will be the same Scotland although hopefully, once the referendum has been had, it will not be presenting the ‘sulky teenager’ face and will once again be as outward looking as it has been.
Mr Salmond has been factually incorrect on many things over his entire political career. For someone much given to making emotional arguments to promote Independence he is remarkable inaccurate about History.
We fundamentally disagree on the pt of Independence and the raspberry was something called humour. Although if you are from Edinburgh I can appreciate that may be a difficult concept. And that last comment was humour again – just in case you need the hint.
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March 9, 2012 at 16:14 -
Ms(?) Barnes,
1. My apologies if I have offended your gender
2. I hope you enjoy your visits, but you did rather give the impression that you were now a stranger.
3. I hope you enjoy your discussions.
4. I think you’ll find that the polling figured are moving towards independence, or at least not the status quo.I didn’t use capitals to describe the new Scotland. You are right, it will be the same country, same people, less drag and even more outward looking than now. Or so I hope.
I am not a fan of Mr Salmond, he is just a very effective means to an end.
And although I am not usually racist or regionalist, I do agree about Edinburgh. The only thing funny about Edinburgh is the tram system. They should come here to Manchester to see how to do it properly.
And it’s so difficult on these comments to see the cheeky grin as the tongue is flapping
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March 8, 2012 at 22:28 -
@dak: I take issue with your assertion that the majority of the contributors here are ‘arrogant’ and ‘ignorant’. Expressing a reasoned opinion is neither. 2Mac has defended his position mightily and is to be commended for that, but not everyone will agree with his position.
My take on the views expressed here, which concur with my own are that Scotland should go its own way and be independent, but… let there be no mistake, independent means fending for oneself and I do not think that Scotland on its own is a viable independent country.
I think that this country, which subsidises Scotland at the moment through taxation would be better off, financially – perhaps a selfish view, but, given the present economic climate, a realistic one. I, for one, am heartily sick of the bleating coming from Salmond and his ilk and would like nothing more than to see them gone, never to return this side of Hadrian’s Wall. I say that those in Scotland that take Salmond’s view are damnably cheeky, to have free this and free that, all of which is, in the main, paid for by taxpayers in the rest of the UK.
How is it fair that someone who lives in Scotland can get a free University education when someone who lives in England, and who contributes to the upkeep of Scotland has to pay £9,000 a year and could be sat next to someone from Scotland on the same course who is doing it for free… That is rubbish.
We are, at present, paying to keep Scotland going. Why? If the majority of those who are now eligible to vote in a referendum about independence for Scotland choose to vote to leave the Union I say ‘Well Done and Goodbye’.
All this bollocks about ‘Scottish Oil’… it makes my blood boil. If Salmond hopes to base the whole economy on that then he is deep in the poo, because the oil will run out… The whole country has nothing else with which to support itself, other than whiskey I suppose.
The whole place appears, to me, to be largely populated by bigotted, insular, self-interested people, who really need a dose of the reality that they appear to so desperately crave, then they might realise that they were well off.
If they go it alone they will very soon wind up like Greece, but without any sunshine… or ouzo.
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March 8, 2012 at 23:17 -
Frankie,
Thank you for your contribution, which is by no means arrogant, but is, I am afraid, ignorant. And I do honestly mean that in the literal sense of the word – you are not in full possession of the facts.
Two years ago Scotland was a net contributor to the union: it received less than it contributed. Last year the situation has changed and we received an even smaller proportion of what we contribute:
If you don’t have some of the benefits that we do (free prescriptions, eye tests, personal care, etc.) take that up with your local representatives, please don’t complain to us. And just to make a point that is not often understood elsewhere – not every Scots student receives free education. I am paying full tuition fees for my daughter: Scots born, lived here all her life, attending an MA course at an approved college in Scotland.
You are right, there is a financial advantage to Scots independence: it works out at £500/head for Scots. That will prove a major lever in the independence campaign, but for me it is not the deciding factor. If you want to know why your taxes are high don’t look north, but to the south-east, where the highest public expenditure by far is.
Oil – yes a useful source of income but, again, not a deciding factor. It will run out, somewhere between 50 and 100 years from now and then all we will have is our water, renewable energy, ingenuity, passion for hard work and will to succeed to fall back on.
Please join me in spreading the message that Scotland should leave the union – you’ll be doing us both a favour. But as a bigoted, insular, self-interested person I would say that, wouldn’t I?
Still waiting for the sound reason for Scotland remaining in the union…
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March 9, 2012 at 00:05 -
Go ahead. Leave………..
………but not entirely on your terms.
Scotland if joining the EU Scotland should join the euro – if not then it should establish its own currency because you will not be allowed to keep the pound.
All financial terms to be worked out based on Scotland’s 8% of UK population. The Barnett Formula to be scrapped.
Oil revenues to be negotiated.
Scots servicemen can stay – if they wish – as quasi mercenaries like the Gurkhas.
Off you go……..not that I think that the Scottish people trust the SNP and will vote for Scottish independence in a straight ‘yes’ or ‘no’ plebiscite…………that is why Salmond wants a fudged question, ‘devo max’ today – full independence by stealth without a referendum in 2030.
No, most Scots are too wise………..that’s also why Salmond wants to lower the franchise to 16yr olds………blatant gerry mandering.
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March 9, 2012 at 00:19 -
It’s interesting that you think that you can impose terms on other people… Arrogance or what?
We’ll establish our own currency, thank you very much, but reserve the right to peg it to any major currency of our choice.
Barnett formula will be no longer relevant. We’ll happily take on 8.4% of the UK national debt, run up by the UK government.
Oil revenues will be dependent on geographical split, based on UN rules.
It’s very gracious of you to allow Scots-born soldiers to remain in the UK army, along with all the other nationalities, please accept my utmost gratitude and here’s a little tug of the forelock for good measure.
Given that some of the soldiers we are allowing to remain in the UK army will be only 16 years old, doesn’t it seem only fair that they can vote for the future of the other country they will be allowed to serve?
Arrogance and ignorance…
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March 9, 2012 at 09:51 -
I’ve seen this claim that Scotland is a net source, not a sink, a few times. I’ve not seen it backed up, however. I’ve also seen the claims, albeit backed by the stats office, that it is receiving more per capita from the taxpayer than the rest of the country.
As the former claims are usually delivered with the same racist rhetoric that Salmond espouses, it makes them all-too-easy to dismiss. The stats office, by contrast is neutral.
Yes, I know, stop laughing at the back…
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March 9, 2012 at 12:40 -
The Government Expenditure and Revenue Report (GERS) figures for 2011 are just out. there’s a good summary here: http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4508-boost-for-independence-as-report-shows-scotland-in-better-shape-than-uk#comment-136676.
You won’t read about them in the UK press but to summarise briefly: Scotland has 8.4% of the UK population, provides 9.6% of the UK revenue, receives 9.3% of the UK public spend.
Taken as countries, public spending per head is greatest in Northern Ireland, then Scotland, then Wales, then England. Taken as regions, public spending per head is highest by far in London, then NI, then Scotland, then Wales and the English provinces get to fight for the crumbs.
It may be only the persistent canard that “the Scots get all the money” that is stopping the massively deprived areas of England from erupting into rebellion.
Oh, and I recently stopped working for ONS after several years of being a consultant there, so I do have a fair graps of statistics.
And the sound reason for Scotland remaining in the union is….
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March 9, 2012 at 12:26 -
To ’2mac’ and ‘dak’…………..although you might be the same person.
My points are neither arrogant not ignorant – to seems to me that by using these epithets you are slanting the argument towards the fact that YOUR side can dictate terms.
Go ahead.
As I – and others – have said, you Scots are very fortunate, you have been granted a plebiscite………us English have not.
New nations joining the EU are obliged to join the euro – that is a legal fact.
By refusing to join the EU and/or euro who is being arrogant?
Don’t think that Scotland can secede and have everything the way it desires.
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March 9, 2012 at 12:30 -
Not that you will anyway – the nation that gave the world this little lot……
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries
…………is not dumb enough to fall for your shitehawk nonsense.
Isn’t that why Salmond want to lower the franchise to 16? Oh, I mentioned that before and you ignored the point.
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March 9, 2012 at 12:48 -
I’ve no idea who 2Mac is, although I like his style, much more patient than mine. If you want to know about me, go to my blog.
I know about the necessity of adopting the euro as a condition of EU membership. Who says we want to join, and why would it be arrogant not to? EEA membership will do me.
Nobody has granted us anything, in fact a great deal of effort has been expended to so prevent it. If you want a plebiscite, go out and get it, that’s what we did.
Thanks for the link. Fortunately the same spirit that produced that illustrious list still exists – that’s why we won’t have to rely just on mineral resource for our future income.
And as for the point about the voting age – look up about 15cm ^ “Given that some of the soldiers we are allowing to remain in the UK army will be only 16 years old, doesn’t it seem only fair that they can vote for the future of the other country they will be allowed to serve?”
And I wasn’t insulting at all.
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March 9, 2012 at 13:06 -
You have every right to try and secure full independence for you home country……….that’s called democracy, and that is something that us Brits have to be proud of – at we did until about 1999 when the New Labour machine got into its stride (but that is a different story).
I have no idea what has happened in Scottish politics for things to have been drive thus far.
I suspect it is all down to Labour……the Left demonised Thatcher so virulently that the Tories were left with no MPs in Scotland. Then Labour politicians have behaved so badly in the past 20yrs that nobody who does not suck on the ‘party teat’ would vote for them either.
A vacuum was created that Salmond was only too happy to fill.
Where will it end? When push comes to shove, I think it will be a little like the UKIP situation……….they receive masses of votes in EU elections as a protest – but come the GE and people don’t really trust them enough to put them in real power.
That’s my theory anyway.
I love my monarch and my country, and really want the Union preserved………but if you go, it should be out of the house, not just out of the bed-room
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March 9, 2012 at 16:19 -
I think your analysis of how politics in Scotland came to the current pass is pretty accurate, right up the point of comparing the SNP with UKIP.
UKIP would kill for the grass-roots support that the SNP now have, and that will increase when they gub Labour in the May elections. Which will be sad, as my family connections with Labour go right back to the 1920′s but they have outlived their purpose.
As has the union. I love my country too, am not too worried about the monarchy, but can’t see any good purpose in the union.
But once we do go, we’ll need to leave some boxes on each other’s landings for a while until we get sorted out. You won’t mind too much, will you?
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{ 89 comments }