Ter’ast yer know man, der finger shot mi bruvver, an he ain’t got no reason ter do dat. Mi bruv only fired off a couple a’ rounds to warn der Babylon dat he ain’t got no business interfering in der yardies an de Babylon shot ‘im dead man. He nay de a street again man.

Now de bruvvers ‘ave ter stay up all night setting fire ter da neighbours an’ barbecuing der bruvvers cars ter teach de Babylon sum manners.

De bruvvs set up sum o’ dem community outreach leaders to teach der Fingers how to stay out de way after Keith Blakelock and dey ain’t learnt nuffink man, dey still fink dey rule de streets.

Where dat Bernie Grant when yer need ‘im? We demand Justice, an’ decent Gangsta rule fer Tottenham. Dem Babylon gotta learn sum respect man, and not go round shooting back at bruvvs what goin’ bout der business.

Alternatively:

THE DEATH of a Tottenham man last night came after a pre-planned operation to arrest him, police have confirmed.

A 29-year-old man, named locally as father-of-four Mark Duggan, was shot twice by an officer from the Metropolitan Police’s specialist firearms team CO19 in Ferry Lane, as part of the force’s Operation Trident after a shoot-out at about 6.15pm.

The officer who was shot at appears to have been saved by his police radio, after a bullet was found lodged in it. The officer was taken to hospital but later discharged.

Or even:

His mum Pamela, 52, said: “Mark was my baby. He was a kind boy. He would have been 30 next month. It’s a wicked world when a boy doesn’t live to see such a milestone.”

Hellooo Ms Abbott, how many millions do we have to pour into Broadwater Farm this time?

Grovemister August 9, 2011 at 16:52

But he had a gun…one down now let the police shoot the rest of these scum
that swan around London like they own the place and think the world owes them
something. To the family, well if you are proud of your son/ brother/ nephew
etc you need a slap, he was SCUM!!!!!!!!

David ray August 8, 2011 at 18:22

A STRICT shoot-to-kill policy please – I want to see rivers of (looters’)
blood….

powell August 8, 2011 at 16:01

Send in the army with a shoot-to-kill policy

john malpas August 8, 2011 at 01:56

Will there be white riots?

Joe Public
August 8, 2011 at 13:07

Not in Tottenham!

Dave Catleugh
August 7, 2011 at 18:37

What did he expect, after shooting at, and hitting, a police officer?

Observer August 7, 2011 at 19:40

If you were there, please provide your eye witness statement to the
appropriate authorities. But somehow I doubt you were…..

Saul August 7, 2011 at 17:28

http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

Single Acts of
Tyranny August 7, 2011 at 22:44

“The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the
attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or
otherwise the logical fallacy isn’t there.”

So calling people detached nutters in the absence of any other commentary
advances the argument how?

Again, ad hominem even if you can cut and paste.

Saul August 7, 2011 at 23:03

Couldn’t resist the little barb at the end eh?

I’ll stick with my original point, anyone advocating an airstrike on
Tottenham drops into my description of nutter.

Single Acts Of Tyranny August 8, 2011 at 06:11

Now you’re getting it, quote example of policy advocated you consider
foolish and note. You might want to try to avoid over-literal
interpretations however. No-one actually wants an airstrike, as you
probably realise.

Saul
August 8, 2011 at 07:20

Oh dear, this is like being on a bus and you spot someone getting
on and think, please don’t let them sit next to me.

Saul August 7, 2011 at 15:55

Airstrikes? Scum?

Forget racism, some of the commenters on here strike me as being detached
nutters. They’ll be demanding that the perpetrators should be horse whipped
next!

JuliaM August 7,
2011 at 16:47

No, we’re reserving that for the scoundrels that don’t indicate on
roundabouts…

Saul August 7, 2011 at 17:33

Exactly, especially the ones who dither at a mini roundabout.

Single Acts Of Tyranny August 7, 2011 at 16:55

While others don’t address issues and engage in the ad hominem

Single
Acts Of Tyranny August 7, 2011 at
15:33

“For the lower paid in cities, crappy council housing is the only
choice”

Or commute, as millions do into London every day?

“And bad housing creates bad people”

No, people do that by choice, don’t blame the bricks.

” large parts of the West Indies doesn’t insist on a father figure being
present during a child’s upbringing”

Then (if true) it is a shitty inferior culture, enabled by welfare.

“On leaving school, they had little chance of a decent job”

Er, until 2008 anyway, non-english speaking Poles could get jobs in the UK
and so could anyone else who actually wanted one. Of course if you are
indolent, then any excuse will do.

James Rigby August 7, 2011 at 15:21

I know this area – I was brought up about 2 miles away from Broadwater
Farm. The history is complex but it stems from immigration in the 60s (nothing
wring with that per se) where people were brought in to do low paid jobs. But
a low paid job does not give you enough money to live in London without state
help – and so a large number of these immigrants ended up in social housing –
and very poor quality social housing at that. The children of the immigrants
were subject to racism from the “indiginous” community, and furthermore the
family culture of large parts of the West Indies doesn’t insist on a father
figure being present during a child’s upbringing. And so the children of
immigrants were shunned at school by their white counterparts, and frankly by
some of the teaching establishment too (I was actually at these schools). So
the black kids hung out together forming their own exclusive peer groups. On
leaving school, they had little chance of a decent job (poor education, poor
parenting, racism among employers etc) and so the peer groups they were in at
school evolved into mutual support networks – or criminal gangs as their more
accurately known. Even the non-criminal elements suffered from being picked on
by the police, and this resulted in many of them turning to crime too – if
you’re going to hassled by the police, then it may as well be for something
you’re doing, as opposed for just being a black person in Tottenham.

I’ve no truck with the racism of Enoch Powell – but his Rivers of Blood
speech has turned out to be somewhat prophetic.

Is there a libertarian solution? Not if you start from here! The solutions
needed to be put in place in the sixties. They let councils build houses (or
rather flats on estates) that no one would actually choose to live in. Our
planning system, green belt and nimbyism means there is little prospect for
enough growth in the housing supply – yet the need for housing has grown
massively since the 60s – and the natural result when demand outstrips supply
is that house price grow to ludicrous levels. For the lower paid in cities,
crappy council housing is the only choice. And bad housing creates bad people.
Add on to this the easy and very lucrative drug dealing – caused by the
prohibition of drugs – and you get a very tense situation which will boil over
once in a while. I have to admit that the only solution is probably state
intervention to tear down these hellholes and rehouse people in proper houses
– and this will probably have to be in towns and new towns outside London.

Long and rambling – but you get my drift.

JuliaM August 7,
2011 at 15:45

” And bad housing creates bad people.”

Do you live in good housing? OK, then take a few of these urban critters
in as lodgers. By your logic, after a few years, they’ll all be little
copies of Mother Teresa, right..?

“Even the non-criminal elements suffered from being picked on by the
police…”

Often you’ll find those most vocally in favour of stop and search are the
honest, decent hard working black parents. The ones who don’t want their
children falling foul of street rats like the Preddy brothers.

“I have to admit that the only solution is probably state intervention
to tear down these hellholes and rehouse people in proper houses…”

I’ve got a better idea – pull down those hellholes while the scum are
still in them. If not, they s**t in their own nests – my taxes shouldn’t go
to clean it up for them.

Lerxst August 7, 2011 at 19:14

Copies of Mother Teresa? What sanctimonious, money grabbing old
walnuts, hell-bent on building a convent empire in their own memory while
keeping the poor in their place?

But hey, ‘bad housing creates bad people’, and the evil old crone lived
in a slum, so what can you expect?

Engineer August 7, 2011 at 16:38

I can’t disagree with your analysis Mr Rigby, mostly because I don’t live
in London. I have seen similar situations, perhaps a bit better addressed,
in other cities oop north.

One thing I would disagree with you about, however, is about Enoch
Powell’s racism – Powell was most emphatically not racist. He had spent many
years in India, and spoke several Indian languages fluently. He expressed a
desire (not fulfilled, I believe) to live out his retirement in India. I
would invite you to download a copy of Powell’s much mis-quoted ‘Rivers of
Blood’ speach and read it – Powell was reporting the thoughts of his
constituents, and in the common language of the time. Sadly, he was indeed
somewhat prophetic.

Cascadian August 7, 2011 at 18:56

You were doing well James until you came to “crappy council housing is
the only choice. And bad housing creates bad people.” Crappy council housing
was endemic throughout many cities in the fifties, sixties and seventies,
indeed my family lived in a crappy council flat, along with thousands of
others.

Were your observation correct then the worst of the council flats one
that literally fell apart after a small gas explosion -Ronan Point, Canning
Town should have produced roving games of illiterates, wearing ridiculous
clothing and speaking unintelligably (hmmm they were cockneys, might have
opened a can of worms there)

The difference I observe, and which nobody is allowed to say without
censure is race and family culture. Amongst my small number of friends was a
cockney speaking, black-as-the-ace-of-spades friend whose father worked for
London Transport. That family had adopted North European norms-work hard,
(even with sometimes crappy teachers), turn up on-time, and dress sensibly
got ahead. It is not rocket science. Others who adopted the Caribbean
approach of laid-back leisure and envy inheritted the socialist dream of
endless welfare. And the rest as they say is history.

James Rigby
August 7, 2011 at 20:00

One thing your black-as-the-ace-of-spades friends seems to have had was
a present father and a stable hard-working family with a work ethic. The
problem is, this is the exception rather than the rule. The elephant in
the room when it comes to libertarianism is children. Feckless reckless
parents are almost bound to create feckless reckless children. The
libertarian purist doesn’t seem to get this and thinks that children of
poor circumstances should just get on their bikes and find work. I’ve
heard it said that if there were no benefits or council housing they would
find work – because otherwise they’d be cold and hungry. What those people
often don’t realise is that the easier alternative is crime. For those
adolescents without role models, or intelligent helicopter parents, where
the education system has let them down, the chances are high that crime
will be the best option: Investment low, return high, chances of being
caught very slim. Apply the universal rules of markets and it’s a
no-brainer. Perhaps some of those urban ghettos are as close to a
libertarian society as you get in the UK.

Cascadian
August 7, 2011 at 22:34

OK James, now we agree, it is parental expectations and guidance that
to a large extent determine success. Poor housing might be a miniscule
factor in development, particularly if adequate sleep is not attainable,
but even the worst council housing provides dry shelter from the
weather.

However your attempt to tie urban ghettos and single parent families
to libertarianism is weak. Firstly, britain has never had libertarian
government at any level. Second, most of the blighted estates are
located in long-term socialist local government areas-eg Tottenham and
Canning Town, and were built under policies of the liebour and
conservative governments. Third, generous welfare has made it possible,
even lucrative to be a single parent. While some support is necessary
for poor families, current and past rates under socialist policies have
been supportive of the indolent Carribean mindset.

So perhaps we do need to experiment with a little libertarianism, and
less state socialism. I am thinking now of the awful waste related to
the Olympics almost entirely publicly funded, the results surely could
not be worse.

Note nowhere in our discussions, has personal responsibility been
addressed-how sad is that?

Single Acts of
Tyranny August 7, 2011 at 22:38

Nay, nay and thrice nay. First feckless parents would not have the
welfare money to create so many children. Will you honestly deny that
having no financial sanction doesn’t make it more likely?

Second, crime maybe the easier alternative today, but Libertarians
believe in few laws, but those there are, would be seriously enforced.
No easy option here and higher detection rates to as more cops chase
fewer crimes.

Third, in Libertopia, if you dislike the education you get, buy it
elsewhere, just as you would with supermarkets today. Thus ‘failing
schools’ would not exist in the present tense.

The urban ghettos (state housing, state schools, useless law
enforcement, welfare dependency, high tax and regulation, victimless
crime etc) are about as far as you can get from the Libertarian ideal as
it is possible to go.

Seriously James, you are dead wrong on this one.

Eleanor
‘andcart August 8, 2011 at 12:08

Funny you should say that. My Dad worked for London Transport and he
said that the whole system would have collapsed without our black
brethren.
I grew up in a Railway House in Neasden, with an outside
lavatory and no bathroom. What more could you want to turn someone into a
criminal.
Sadly, I failed at that one and grew up to vote Conservative,
an act for which my Father never forgave me. I begin to see his point
somewhat belatedly.
I actually joined a very elite Big Girls Gang
called The Women’s Royal Naval Service. And I learned how to shoot
straight. This is more difficult than it sounds.

In fact, I am a Cockney. But the less said about that the better, these
days.

Anna
Raccoon August 8, 2011 at
12:21

Quite so, Eleanor.
I have been reading with some incredulity over
the past few days and cannot figure out why my own background failed to
equip me for a (short) lifetime as a gun toting drug dealer……

Eleanor
‘andcart August 8, 2011 at
17:22

Yer. Too right. Who can we complain to?

Single
Acts Of Tyranny August 7, 2011 at
12:16

It will be interesting to read the report on this guy and the catalytic
event in question. I wonder what sort of bullet “lodges in a radio”

From when I used to shoot handguns (when it was legal), I can only imagine
this to be a small calibre, low velocity bullet (ie momentum = mass x
velocity). I coudn’t really see a ‘gangsta’ carrying around a 0.22 revolver.
It may have been one of these replicas modified to fire live ammo which would
account for a low muzzle velocity as most would be lost as the barrel could
not adequately focus the energy. But a decent handgun should carve straight
through a radio even allowing for hollow point type bullets if these were the
ones that were fired. It may also be this part of the story unravels somewhat.
Ballistics will reveal a lot in this case.

What is not in dispute is as follows:

1. The guy was armed, probably unlawfully.
2. The cops thought it
prudent to have armed officers to arrest him.
3. Both weapons were fired,
(there is dispute over the order)

But ask yourself this. If plod shoved a machine gun in your face would you
put your hands up, surrender then sue for wrongful arrest or engage in a gun
fight? I submit this gentleman was the author of his own misfortune and
frankly, if you run around with unlawful guns, don’t cry when you get shot.
The ‘protest’ is simply opportunist looting.

Now does anyone want to buy a 50 inch plasma TV with slight scorch marks
around the edges?

Single Acts Of Tyranny August 12, 2011 at 20:59

SAoT does not want to claim god-like omnipotence and powers of foresight,
but, from the IPCC

“A non-police issue handgun, converted from a blank-firing pistol to one
that shoots live rounds, was recovered close to the scene of his death”

Although point three rather shows SAoT’s claims to be over-stated.

Observer August 7, 2011 at 12:01

It’s alarming the number of police radios/cellphones being shot at lately.
Anyone might suspect the police keep a stock of such devices they’ve shot
themselves just to pull out whenever accused of firing on a bruvva without due
cause.

JuliaM August 7,
2011 at 12:42

*dons tinfoil helmet*

Speak troof to powah, bruv!

Observer
August 7, 2011 at 15:44

Much respek, Sistah!
Thing is, the vast majority of today’s gangstas
use 9mm semi-automatic weapons. This is typically the so-called 9mm Nato
round (it goes by very many other names, btw). This round doesn’t get
lodged in puny cellphones. Not from this distance! A plastic case and a
GRP circuit board?? Don’t make me laugh. Only crappy air pistols are that
gutless. 9mm Natos in the most common TMJ format will penetrate as much as
a foot of sold pine-wood. Sounds to me like we’re being bullshi**ed to by
de filt, Sistah. You need to wake up, Sistah!

JuliaM August 7, 2011 at 15:46

*rolls eyes*

Engineer
August 7, 2011 at 16:25

Just a thought – and it’s only that, because my ballistics knowledge
is minimal – but don’t the police firearms officers wear body-armour
when undertaking tasks of this nature? That would stop the bullet, maybe
in such a way that it might lodge in a radio, though I suspect the
impact would give the cop a right old thump – probably enough to put him
in hospital for a day or two.

JuliaM August 7, 2011 at 16:49

Awwww, now you’re bringing logic into it! How can anyone get a
decent conspiracy theory going round here if you’re going to do
that..?

Observer
August 7, 2011 at 19:42

Engineer, you reckon the old bill wear their radios under
their body armour?? Can’t see that working somehow!

Ancient &
Tattered Airman August 7, 2011 at
19:57

(it goes by very many other names, btw).
Parabellum.

permanentexpat
August 7, 2011 at 11:44

“Are all of these people black? Or amn’t I allowed to say that?”
Maybe
not, although unlikely, answers the first part of the question I would
guess…as to the second part, in a police state you can say what you want as
long as nobody hears you.
It used to be that newspapers reported: ‘A man is
being questioned’ or ‘A white man is being questioned…’, but I think that’s
now a ‘racist’ no-no too. In the past, as now, we had our own indigenous crime
of course.
Our stupidity is that we imported & continue to import more.
Whitey & Honky have only themselves to blame…and if the makes me a
‘racist’, so be it.

Dioclese August 7,
2011 at 11:23

You can’t teach a pig to sing. It will frustrate you and annoy the pig!

Doesn’t do much to advance the cause of tolerance for immigrants, does
it?

JuliaM August 7,
2011 at 10:57

“Hellooo Ms Abbott, how many millions do we have to pour into Broadwater
Farm this time?”

How much does an airstrike cost? Seems cheap at the price, whatever it
is….

Eleanor
‘andcart August 7, 2011 at 11:13

Ooooh, that seems a bit drastic. One Heat Seeking Missile should do the
job.

PS. Are all of these people black? Or amn’t I allowed to say that?

JuliaM August
7, 2011 at 12:35

Who knows? Despite their desire to see ‘justice’ done, no matter that
they ‘just wanted answers’, they seem to have kept their faces
covered…

Furor
Teutonicus August 7, 2011 at 12:56

XX Eleanor ‘andcart August 7, 2011 at 11:13
PS. Are all of these
people black? XX

Not black enough. Nothing that a couple of air strikes using napalm
could not change, though.

Malcolm
Saunders August 7, 2011 at 10:35

Spot on Anna.

When friends and family of Mr Duggan went to Tottenham police station last
night to express their concerns by throwing bricks at the windows they were
joined by two or three hundred people who did some late night shopping while
warming themselves around cosy fires.

As usual, the vicious police broke up this community socialising with great
brutality.

http://malpoet.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/tottenham-in-flames/

John August 7, 2011 at 09:42

It seems clear that this lovely boy not only carried a gun but had no
compunction in shooting at the Police when challenged.

If there are peoples in Tottenham who want to defend shit like that then
frankly a few more armed officers should be allowed in to settle things with
them properly. I’d be willing to bet that the decent law abiding people of
Tottenham wouldn’t miss a single one of those yobs who were out last
night.

Span
Ows August 7, 2011 at 10:41

It seems clear that this lovely boy not only carried a gun but had no
compunction in shooting at the Police when challenged. Exactly, he even
aimed at the radio to avoid hurting the officer.

And those with their rights to protest were led astray by the wonderful
offers at the shops they visited; you just wait and see, they’ll all be
queuing up to pay for their purchases tomorrow becasue at the time nobody
was behind the counter.

The fires were an unfortunate incident, the bus had a leaky fuel line,
one youth leapt to stop an old man from stumbling but the falling
zimmer-frame caused a spark, and well, as they say, the rest is history.

Saul August 7, 2011 at 08:27

I wish I had been there like Tom so I could know the real events. I could
have also burnt a bus and robbed a cash machine as a rightful protest.

JuliaM August 7,
2011 at 10:59

All those deprived yoots, suffering the bitter curse of unemployment,
desperate for food for their starving families…

Just what side dishes do you serve with new Reeboks and a 50 inch plasma
TV?

LJHills August 7, 2011 at 15:30

…living in appalling conditions without new carpets,..

JuliaM August 7, 2011 at 15:47

Tom August 7, 2011 at 08:11

Ah, so you’re a “libertarian” that’s happy for the police to shoot people,
happily buys the Met’s version of events, doesnt believe in the right to
protest and is a racist to boot. What a fucking surprise!

right_writes
August 7, 2011 at 08:41

Tend to agree with Tom…

Willing to bet that he was mixed up with some kind of prohibited
substance…

Answer… stop prohibiting substances… Any perceived gangsterism goes away,
as if by majik!

Groups like mafia and yard only exist and arm themselves in the face of
the biggest and baddest gang of the lot… Much easier for them to open a
shop…

Instead, us ordinary peeps, when we aren’t getting caught up in the cross
fire, are paying for all the damage…

And we are doing this for what reason/s?

As far as I am concerned, if someone wants to mess themselves up with
some substance or another, that is entirely up to them, just don’t involve
me… And that means legalise (ie: repeal the prohibition laws) it, and let
them play pharmacists with each other… Not my problem.

Always the same with lefty do-gooders, they make us pay for other
peoples’ stupid behaviour, and we always end up with a police state as a
consequence.

Let’s just put this scenario in a different light…

I make a couple of assumptions here… see above:

Man opens shop selling alternative method for getting out of it.

Peeps come into shop and buy it.

Man goes home to wife and family after work.

There… No guns, no licences, no peripheral crime, no riots, no crossfire,
no dead man, no injured/dead policeman…

I can’t see a downside?

Please enlighten a stupid old man… Do.

Eleanor
‘andcart August 7, 2011 at 11:02

Oh My, Well I never. Of course they should be allowed to fry their
brains if they want to.
And the sooner the better, if you ask me.

Unfortunately they appear to be breeding another generation of fried
brains. But that’s not my problem, so why should I care, so long as it
doesn’t cost me anything.

Sheesh.

Tom
Paine August 7, 2011 at 08:53

It’s perfectly libertarian to believe in vigorous enforcement of the few
laws necessary to protect person and property. It’s perfectly libertarian to
support the police when they are doing that (and not when they are policing
thought or shooting innocent Brazilians on illegal orders).

I can’t see that Anna has accepted any view of events yet. Time (and
forensic analysis of a bullet lodged in a police radio) will tell if the Met
is right or wrong.

Of course, it’s not exactly a ****ing surprise that you should cry
‘racist’. However, it seems to me that you
are a racist to imply that all black Londoners (who suffer more than their
neighbours from gang activity) should see themselves in Anna’s caricature
and be offended.

Anna
Raccoon August 7, 2011 at 09:38

Did you miss that little word ‘Alternatively’ Petal?

Engineer August 7, 2011 at 09:50

Tom, don’t all the ordinary locals (of whatever race, creed or culture)
trying to get on with their lives, run small businesses, bring up families
and carve a decent life for themselves without being involved in criminal
gangs have rights too? Aren’t the police doing their best to protect their
right to a peaceful existence? Do they deserve to have their cars and
businesses burnt out and their goods looted?

Who are the real victims in all this?

Zulfiqar August 7, 2011 at 10:14

Ah, so you’re a “libertarian” that’s happy for the police to shoot
people, happily buys the Met’s version of events, doesnt believe in the
right to protest and is a racist to boot. What a fucking surprise!

This is such an unhinged comment that it must be a parody. Try engaging
your critical faculties before you react.

Joe Public
August 7, 2011 at 10:52

Those who live by the gun, die by the gun.

JuliaM August 7,
2011 at 11:02

Oh, Tom, no-one’s heaping scorn on this little s**t’s way of life and
speech because he’s black (he was actually mixed race, and the worse
of both, evidently).

Far from it, you see, in many lily-white ‘communities’, his attitude and
speech patterns are matched.

We’re heaping scorn on him because he’s worthless scum. That’s all.

DJ August 7, 2011 at 20:25

Racist? So all black people “tawk, like, in dat baby tawk from….liake,
london, ja get me blood?”

Don’t be so fooking racist yourself, if you think all black people talk
like the so solid crew – there are plenty of white trash dickheads who talk
in de babytawk as well, tho.

Hailing from outside of the stinking shithole that is London, we get used
to talking to adults who can pronounce things like letters and full words –
this is a piss-take of the uneducated, not black people – but I guess from
your comment you equate the two…..says a lot really.

As for the MET, they are total knuts it’s true, but more so than the
prositute running, gang-raping, knife wielding, benefit scamming, wallet
stealing, excuse making assholes “who aint loving it when da bill take out
me main man”?

Their both thugs, but at least the MET would put out YOUR home if on
fire, whereas the others would be pissing on your burning corpse at they
take happy slap videos to post on youtube!

Ted August 7, 2011 at 21:51

These riots were about race. Why ignore the fact?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/

Robert Edwards
August 7, 2011 at 07:59

Perfect analysis. Spot on, as usual.

Hope you are feeling better!