Eternal Punishment.
The waiting room was empty except for G and I. He came in and sat down quietly, and never took his eyes off his shoes. A young man, perhaps 35 or so, of African descent I would imagine, with his coal black skin. Visitors to that waiting room rarely speak to each other; we are all lost in our own thoughts, battling our own demons. We don’t need to inquire; there is only one reason why you are waiting to be seen by the palliative care ‘pain clinic’.
Whereas I could feel the warmth of Mr G’s arm pressed up next to mine in silent support – he only had the cold comfort of the metal shackle binding him to the arm of his companion. The other side of him sat another uniformed officer. They both stared straight ahead. You can’t blame them; prison officers aren’t hired for their empathy and hand holding qualities, they have other functions in their job.
‘Strewth’, I thought, ‘Ain’t that the truth’? – ‘Just when you are in danger of feeling sorry for yourself, life manages to remind you that things could be worse’.
When I got home I started Googling. We have an ever growing elderly prison population; I had looked into the issue of specially adapted cells for wheelchairs with bed hoists and bath lifts – but what happens when they develope terminal illnesses, cancer; or that horror child of impending doom – muscular dystrophy – as the law of averages says some will?
The number of older prisoners in the UK has more than doubled in the last decade, with the greatest increases amongst those over 70. Around 40% of older prisoners are sex offenders, many of whom are in prison for the first time due to historic abuse. Longer sentences and more stringent release criteria mean that increasing numbers of ‘anticipated deaths’ in prison are predicted.
I had fondly imagined that the few prisoners who grew old enough to develope terminal illness were released on compassionate grounds; a belief probably encouraged by the publicity surrounding Ronnie Biggs’ release to allow him to die at home surrounded by his family. That is a rarity, rather than the norm – and not truly the result of an uncaring prison system comprised of vitriolic psychopathic prison staff!
Back in 2007, it was proposed that the discharge grant be raised to £114.90; the amount has remained stubbornly at £46.75. Not a penny more, not a penny less. A high proportion of long term prisoners and elderly prisoners no longer have a family network to return to. They are officially ‘No Fixed Abode’. Sleeping rough or moving hostels every few days is not a lot of fun for anybody – it is out of the question for those living through the last few days of terminal illness. Staying in prison is actually a prefered option.
Utilising existing hospices for serving prisoners? The media would just love that! Heart rending tales of when Granny met the ‘Sheffield Strangler’ as she lay dying and spent her last moments in abject terror, would write themselves. Nobody would bother to point out that the ‘Sheffield Strangler’ was semi-conscious, immobile, delirious, and in no fit state to harm anyone…
The only remaining option is to turn sections of the prison estate into mini-hospices. That is, in small pockets, what has in fact happened – with varying degrees of success. There be dragons there too.
They may be called hospice units – but they are still prison. At night, it is still a cell.
The cells are small, averaging six by eight feet, and built for single occupancy. Privacy goes out the window very quickly. The cell toilet is located usually right beside the door. It’s not sectioned off. You eat your dinner just a couple of feet away from an open toilet.
You will be locked in at night, that’s how prisons operate. If you throw up for an hour at 4am, there’s no kindly companion to mop your brow and make you a cup of tea, in fact there’s no companion at all. If you are in terrible agony, there’s no Macmillan nurse to moisten your lips and up your medication – you are on your own. As was Ronald Sherlock – found dead the next morning at 11.30am – ironically in Norwich Prison, probably the best prison for palliative care.
Sherlock, who was jailed in 1979, was transferred to Norwich Prison in 2005 and was seriously ill with heart problems, prostate cancer, diabetes, chronic kidney disease, lung cancer and had developed Alzheimer’s Disease, the inquest heard.
In the majority of prisons, a Macmillan nurse attends on a Wednesday. Which is a long time to wait if you have taken a turn for the decidedly worse on the previous Saturday. If she is able to up your pain relief, if you are lucky, the prison authorities will be able to collect it in time for the following Saturday. That is assuming she is able to up your medication. There is a major issue in prisons surrounding the euphemistically named ‘pain relief’.
The next step up from Morphine is a Fentanyl patch giving 24 hour relief. Sadly Fentanyl patches are a heroin derivative.
Both used and unused fentanyl patches have been injected, smoked, snorted or taken orally with fatal consequences.
Nobody is suggesting that the terminally ill are going to willingly exchange their Fentanyl patch for half a dozen Mars bars (or if they are, then they have never been in excruciating agony as cancer eats through their bones). However, they can be peeled off semi-conscious inmates, easily secreted, and then misused throughout the general prison.
Prison Governors don’t want Fentanyl floating round their prison; they have the same reservations about ‘pump drivers’ delivering other options – the needles can be removed – so the options for pain relief are limited, take an inordinate time to travel through the prison system, and definitely are not available at the hands of a kindly nurse in the middle of the night.
I don’t care how much of a rough, tough, bank robber you are, or a teenage arsonist still awaiting a suitable course to get you off your indeterminate prison sentence – cancer treatments are terrifying. They turn the strongest person into a wobbling, wailing, chunk of blubber who only wants everyone in the vicinity to be extremely nice to them…
Dying alone in a small cell in screaming agony is no part of the punishment that I have ever heard a judge hand down. I would say it probably engages Article 3, and would hope that some Human Rights lawyer reads this and takes up the cudgel on behalf of the several hundred prisoners currently in this situation.
I can’t say it is the fault of the prison authorities – they have to run their prisons to serve several different masters which are incompatible with the needs of the terminally ill.
A large number of those elderly prisoners are sex offenders. There will be those who take a visceral pleasure at the thought of them dying in such a manner – serves them right, they will say; deserve everything they get. This will also be the reaction of the media, should the Justice department attempt to rectify the situation other than by stealth. They will pick the most heinous and celebrated offender and invite their readers to ‘vote’ on whether they deserve any better a death than that portrayed.
Equally, a fair sized proportion of those affected aren’t sex offenders.
Stephen Downing narrowly escaped dying in jail. Protesting his innocence saw him labelled ‘in denial’ and thus ineligible to be released from his life sentence. He is now hailed as ‘the longest miscarriage of justice in history’ after his 27 years in prison. He is the darling of the liberal left – would they be happy had he died a miserable, frightening, painful death in the mean time? He was an innocent man.
Danny was an 18 year old imprisoned on an indeterminate sentence for two bungled burglaries, now the same age as the young man I sat opposite in the clinic. Did you want to tell me that he deserves to die in medieval conditions, should he contract a terminal illness?
What is needed is for one prison to be a dedicated unit for the elderly, with hospice facilities attached – and no other function. Albany jail in the Isle of Wight has made a spirited attempt, developing a dedicated unit with an enclosed garden in the centre of the jail; it includes a small unit overlooking the garden where those who wish can spend their final days. However, so long as there are other prisoners housed on the same estate, as at Albany, it doesn’t solve all the problems regarding pain medication, nor, quite understandably, does it deal with the issue of prison officers not being hired for their lip moistening and hand holding qualities.
Norwich Prison, the forerunner in trying to do ‘this’ better, has just announced that ‘L’ wing will shortly be a smoke free environment. No doubt, when there has been little complaint from the semi-comatose inhabitants of that wing, it will be decreed a success and rolled out through the entire prison. Bet they don’t spell out the function of ‘L’wing to the media. Need I tell you which is ‘L’ wing? Yep, the terminally ill will be the first to be denied a last gasp of nicotine…
With the growing elderly population, I wonder whether Amber Rudd has the backbone to ignore the media manipulation that will occur, should she deign to attack this problem head on.
I’d cheer her to the rafters if she did. Prisoners, whatever their crime, are still human beings. Any Human Rights lawyers listening?
Discuss.
Addendum: I’m adding two very helpful articles on the subject that you may find useful if you want to follow up on this subject. There is surprisingly little information available.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 21, 2016 at 3:56 pm -
Will they at least allow vaping (there are specially designed-by-prisons E-cigs for prisons)? I doubt it. Since the Smoking Ban for mental health patients nothing those who-only-want-what-is-best-for-us do surprises me, no new depth to their cruelty amazes me. We used to laugh about the Americans refusing men strapped to the gurney or chair a last cigarette on ‘health and safety’ grounds. God save us all from wrongful imprisonment or mental illness.
- tdf
September 21, 2016 at 4:12 pm -
” Since the Smoking Ban for mental health patients nothing those who-only-want-what-is-best-for-us do surprises me, no new depth to their cruelty amazes me. ”
Did the UK authorities seriously include psychiatric institutions within the ambit of the smoking ban? What arrant stupidity.
In Ireland, the first country to introduce a full smoking ban in all workplaces bars, originally it was planned to have no exemptions, but in response to lobbying from the psychiatric and some other professions, the government wisely relented at the last minute and permitted exemptions in prisons, nursing homes, psychiatric hospitals, hotel bedrooms. It is well testified too that schizophrenics obtain a degree of relief from delusions by smoking.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 21, 2016 at 4:59 pm -
Oh there were legal exemptions for HM Prisons and Nuthouses alright but they are being circumvented…for the sake of patients and prisoners of course. The Antismoking NAzis tried to get the HIgh Court to declare the Smoking Ban covered Prisons recently but lost so they are lobbying hard to get one introduced anyways.
It is only a matter of time now before all UK prisons are covered by Smoking Verbot…by the back door. There was some disgustingly evil woman on the radio a few weeks back from the Mental Health Nurses Staffel proclaiming that forbidding their charges from smoking (and that included vaping) was actually ‘caring’.Showers => that way.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- tdf
- Jim McLean
September 21, 2016 at 4:00 pm -
I don’t suppose the HM Inspectorate, even together with CQC could have any influence?
I don’t think there would be any outcry at all about prisoners receiving health care or palliative care. I can’t imagine anyone I know not being able to see the difference between the “wrongs” of granting fit young prisoners luxuries like x-boxes and colour tellies and the “rights” of old prisoners being given humane treatment and care.
If a prisoner was allowed freedom to spend his or her last days in a hospice, why couldn’t that happen under anonymity, the way prisoners who are released are often given new identities?
It is sickening that we are employing almost Nazi-like obsession with regulations and process rather than simply doing the right thing when it stares us in the face. - suffolkgirl
September 21, 2016 at 4:44 pm -
Kudos to Anna for researching the treatment of others when she could be forgiven for only thinking of her own.
Unfortunately I don’t share her optimism that the public will accept a more humane treatment of elderly prisoners or that the government has the will to fund it. We seem to live in vengeful times. - Jonathan King
September 21, 2016 at 5:12 pm -
Funnily enough had a conversation only today with a lady whose husband has a cell next to a 92 year old in very poor health. I helped guide an Alzheimers victim to his cell in Belmarsh (“where is my home?”) some years ago – he followed me to Maidstone but naturally didn’t remember me when he got there. He kept dropping his food on the floor; I offered to clear it up but officers insisted on doing it – in my day the vast majority of prison officers were decent, kind human beings who hated what was going on as much as we did and tried hard to make life more pleasant for those nearing the ends of their lives. The few bad apples get most attention. Michael Gove really seemed to be doing something about it. I fear the new Home Secretary may have earned her job through her gender, not her ability.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 21, 2016 at 5:17 pm -
I fear the new Home Secretary may have earned her job through her gender, not her ability.
Ya think, DiNozzo?
- tdf
September 21, 2016 at 5:29 pm -
The UK has suffered from a long line of vengeful Home Secretaries.
Both Michael Howard and in particular David Blunkett struck me as being psychologically unsuited for the role, both possessing a vengeful attitude untempered by humanity.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Carol42
September 21, 2016 at 6:12 pm -
I read somewhere that this is becoming a serious problem in the US with the very long sentences and they were thinking of setting up special prisons for geriatric and terminally ill inmates. Don’t know if anything ever came of it.
- The Last Furlong
September 21, 2016 at 6:54 pm -
God’s truth this is horrible. I’ve never thought about this. I feel I’ve grown up a bit. Very moving post – thank you for writing it.
- Michael J. McFadden
September 21, 2016 at 7:14 pm -
Anna, thank you for a beautifully researched and written entry that will hopefully get passed around and upward and may give at least a little kick in the process of changing that system. Prisons seem to be schizophrenic, keeping nonviolent offenders of various sorts locked up into their dotage or when terminally ill while claiming they have to turn out younger, violent offenders to the streets early because they don’t have room for them in the system.
Sick.
– MJM
- binao
September 21, 2016 at 8:51 pm -
A belated welcome back, Anna.
To think of anyone suffering is painful; in most circumstances there’s nothing practical we can do except give the morphine.
I can’t forget it.Regardless of circumstances, I also find it hard to differentiate between the care needs of a hardened criminal, even the most repellent, and anybody else. The difficulty is that regardless of whether it’s revenge by society, protection of society, or acknowledgement of society’s desire for it, we lock people up when they do wrong, sometimes for a very long time. We either don’t have, or are not interested in any alternatives. I discount the plight of the unjustly or wrongly imprisoned; not because I don’t care but because perfection isn’t on offer.
My view is that given the rationing of resources that is the reality of public health care, there has to be a balance. We cannot meet all the needs of the ‘free’, therefore we cannot meet all the needs of the imprisoned. There has to be an equitable level of service regardless of the location of the patient, care home (institution), or prison (institution).
I really can’t see any difference.I think the death sentence, or voluntary death of criminals with terminal illness, except I can’t get my head around the idea of someone who’d do it. Armed forces I think I understand, but executioners and euthanasia experts seem to me to be less than one step away from the abattoir. I’m also not sure which crimes should attract such options, so my thinking is perhaps a bit muddled.
Just a view.- tdf
September 21, 2016 at 9:04 pm -
On the death penalty, personally, my view is I’d leave it on the statute books, but use it only very rarely. I’d volunteer to shoot people like Marc Dutroux or Sidney Cooke in the head, and feel happy doing so. There are some people – not very many, fortunately – that society has a right to get rid of, just do away with them.
But I will admit that even in that argument I make above, is a slight flaw on rational grounds, as of course there is always the slight chance, however remote, that Dutroux (or similar) might be prevailed upon to give up some of their accomplices in old age. Accordingly, perhaps it is not necessarily for the good of society to execute even Dutroux.
I’ve only known one person in my life who was murdered – his brother (who was a work colleague of mine at the time) commented not long afterwards, that he still didn’t agree on principle with the death penalty, as there was always the slightest chance, however remote, that the authorities had got the wrong perp. I must admit I’m not sure if I’d be capable of that level of objectivity, in those particular circumstances.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 22, 2016 at 12:43 am -
I’d volunteer to shoot people like Marc Dutroux or Sidney Cooke in the head, and feel happy doing so.
That should probably worry you. There was a long tradition of British hangmen also being publicans in their spare time (actually the other way around). Imagine if you’d volunteered to execute Kiszko or Gerry Conlon , just two of countless men would have been hanged for absolute bloody 100%-24 carat-stone cold certain if their ‘crimes’ been but a few years earlier. You’d only have two options, eat a bottle or eat a gun, unless you were some kind of sociopath and they are almost as rare as genuine nymphomaniacs.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- tdf
- Stewart Cowan
September 21, 2016 at 10:55 pm -
I have never been in a prison, but I expect my political views will get me there one day. I do know quite a bit about various “caring” sectors of our society, which, in my experience, are staffed largely by self-important, self-righteous sadists in various positions of power and who abuse that power to hurt others who they see as inferior. We seem to be dangerously along the road of Social Darwinism – again. Plus, boxes need ticked and targets need to be met and it seems to me that vulnerable human beings have largely become pawns in this game.
It tells me that the obsession with “health and safety” is just another way to control people. I know how my health and safety were completely ignored by people whose job it was to help me. While literally left to rot, I continued to get phone calls and a letter about smoking cessation help from the local GPs. These people seemed to have exchanged their God-given humanity for the inhumane obsessions of the system which they seem unable to detach themselves from long enough to be able to see what it – and they – have become.
Thankfully, some goodness shone through the black clouds of hopelessness and something of a miracle happened to get me back on track, It happened despite the system, rather than because of it.
I do hope that legal people who aspire to higher ideals will help to reverse the awful, ignorant, damaging decisions made by uncaring jobsworths and politicians.
- Mr Ecks
September 22, 2016 at 8:38 pm -
I would be sorry to have hanged two innocent men.
But my conscience would be eased by hanging –free of fee–the coppers who stitched them up.
- Mr Ecks
- Peter Whale
September 22, 2016 at 11:38 am -
Why would provable mental illness (Alzheimers) not make you eligible for removal from prison, as it is a defence against going to trial?
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 22, 2016 at 12:47 pm -
as it is a defence against going to trial?
I’m not a lawyer and will gladly be corrected but as afar as I know Alzheimers etc aren’t a defence against going to trial, the defence is not being capable of submitting a plea (ie not having enough mental where with-all to know what day of the week it is or the difference between right and wrong). As was the case with Janner.- The Blocked Dwarf
September 22, 2016 at 12:48 pm -
*edit “aren’t a defence against going to trial per se“
- The Blocked Dwarf
- dearieme
September 22, 2016 at 1:03 pm -
I remember the miraculously reversible Alzheimer’s of “Deadly Ernest” Saunders. Strangely his doctors didn’t share a Nobel Prize.
Whose job is it to check judges’ bank accounts?I suppose a reasonable rule might be “treat them humanely, but no better than non-prisoners in the same state”.
- dearieme
September 22, 2016 at 1:05 pm -
Good Lord, that was ambiguous. I’m not suggesting that judges be treated humanely, they are lawyers after all.
- Mrs Grimble
September 22, 2016 at 3:01 pm -
O gawd, not that urban myth again! Here are the facts: Saunders was convicted and sentenced to five year. He then appealed against his sentence, on the grounds that he was unwell and possibly suffering from early Alzhiemers. He was examined by three expert witness; a neurologist acting for the Crown decided he was suffering from depression; another neurologist, for the defence declared that Saunders had a reduced brain size that was suggestive of Alzheimers; the third witness (again for the defence), a forensic pathologist who happened to be a personal friend of Saunders, put him through three standard tests – recite three numbers backwards, use a door, name the current US President. Saunders duly failed them all, causing the renowned forensic pathologist to deduce that he definately had Alzheimers. The judge accepted the majority verdict and Saunders was released after serving only 10 months. He is still alive and well and still insisting that he never – no, not ever, not for one instant! – said anything about having Alzheimers.
- dearieme
September 22, 2016 at 9:44 pm -
“recite three numbers backwards, use a door, name the current US President”: it’s hard to think of a set of tests easier to fake.
- dearieme
- dearieme
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Jonathan Mason
September 22, 2016 at 12:51 pm -
Why would provable mental illness (Alzheimers) not make you eligible for removal from prison, as it is a defence against going to trial?
Alzheimers disease is not classified as a mental illness (at least not here in the US) and it is not really provable either, unless it is so advanced that there is no doubt about the matter. Think about the case of General Pinochet.
I don’t know about the minutiae of UK law, but I would think that it is the mental incompetence and inabilty to understand the charges or instruct a defense that would be a defense against going to trial, not the diagnosis of Alzheimer’s per se.
- Jonathan Mason
September 22, 2016 at 1:04 pm -
Here in the US prisons usually have hospital wings with 24 hour care provided by registered nurses. The amount of security in these departments will vary according to the inmates present and may range from being shackled to a bed to being given the run of the place. Prisons are also graded according to types of inmate, levels of security, and so on, so some prisons might specialize in caring for prisoners with Alzheimer’s disease, others for prisoners with HIV/AIDS, others for escapers, and so on.
Medical care is incredibly expensive here, especially if the inmate is on lifelong antiviral drug therapy or needs other expensive medications, so sick prisoners are an important economic resource and source of jobs, so they are treasured and kept alive as long as possible.
Florida banned smoking in prisons in 2011, but then partly retracted the law in 2013 to allow employees, contractors, and visitors to smoke in restricted outdoor areas out of the sight of inmates.
No word on whether smokers have become more law abiding since the ban.
It is certainly not all primroses and lilacs and cucumber sandwiches on the lawn for afternoon tea in US prisons, but the practices Anna is describing in UK prisons sound rather, well, Victorian.
- Tommy K
September 22, 2016 at 2:13 pm -
What a nasty, self-righteous, country we have become. We have so much “virtue signalling” and political correctness that we drag the hapless Paul Gascoigne through the courts for his toe-curlingly puerile, but hardly malicious, “joke” about a black man, we are so scared about any and every potential risk of giving offence that we have Bowdlerised Swallows and Amazons, yet we are so lacking in compassion that we fill our jails with the elderly and the mentally ill. Perhaps it is time we made punishing vulnerable people as socially unacceptable as using a mobile phone in a car.
- Hadleigh Fan
September 22, 2016 at 5:26 pm -
Tommy K, I think socially unacceptable as mobile phones in a car is a poor analogy, as lots of people do it and don’t see the harm in it. Drink driving is far less prevalent than it was – I think that is the better analogy – and although it is still far too prevalent, drinking and driving was virtually universal at one time.,
This is not a defence of either.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 22, 2016 at 6:37 pm -
as lots of people do it and don’t see the harm in it
as didn’t I until the day, heading back up a surprisingly clear M11 from London I caught myself texting (no hands free) in the fast lane doing *cough* 70ish *cough. I was so sickened by my own stupidity I had to pull over and regain my compost, if not my lunch.
I see from the Bestes Frau In The Whole Wide World’s Daily Whinge that they are campaigning for the Police to enforce the ban on mobiles at the wheel (who, on Earth, would let Siri drive ?!?!) . Don’t you just know that not only will May command the Police to be more vigorous and diligent in their pursuit of those telephoning whilst driving but also those adults who share their kid’s smoke at the wheel (i used to find it very useful that 2 of my 15 year olds smoked, saved me fumbling for a lighter at the wheel on many occasions, they knew that every 10 miles Daddy needs a fresh fag, it’s all down to training them from a young age.)- Mr Chuck
September 23, 2016 at 8:47 pm -
Texting, while driving, is extremely dangerous, particularly on 2 or 3 lane carriageways – the idiots either block lanes, or overtake and then pull in in front of you whilst slowing down sharply. However I doubt that there will be much, if any, enforcement of the proposed new laws, because the police don’t have the resources to do it, and if they did, would only be criticised for not pursuing real crims
- Mr Chuck
- Tommy K
September 22, 2016 at 6:39 pm -
I agree entirely Hadleigh Fan. I was just being ironic about mobile phone use being the latest moral panic to be compared to drink driving. Previously it was speeding. There are probably other examples
- Tommy K
September 22, 2016 at 6:44 pm -
The real point, however, is that it is inappropriate (I think utterly cruel and spiteful) for the criminal justice industry to lock up vulnerable people.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 22, 2016 at 6:47 pm -
+1
- Stewart Cowan
September 23, 2016 at 1:45 am -
Tommy – I find this same phenomenon can happen in any comments section. You initially explained the issue in brutally honest terms and yet someone picks you up on a minor technicality. It leaves me wondering if they choose to ignore the horrendous, unacceptable behaviour of those whose salaries we pay through our taxes, because it helps them to cope mentally by pretending it’s not happening, or if they just don’t really care.
Maybe Hadleigh Fan can enlighten us. Maybe he feels that we all accept that it is unacceptable, so time to change the subject? He might think that this is rich coming from me, but I feel that the gravity of the situation demands a serious and robust response; in fact: direct action. It is time the middle-aged/old-aged, non-lefties. non-PC, climate sceptics took action en masse – hands on, if required.
- Tommy K
September 24, 2016 at 10:23 am -
I agree Stewart. I don’t understand why people read an article by Anna that raises uncomfortable but serious issues and then proceed to divert discussion away from the subject.
- Tommy K
- Stewart Cowan
- JuliaM
September 23, 2016 at 9:20 am -
Tommy K, one man’s ‘vulnerable person’ is another man’s terrifying aggressive beggar or habitual problem drinker or frightening mentally unwell shouter-at-passer’s-b.
So what do you suppose we do to protect those who don’t want to encounter these types in their shops or streets or – heaven forbid – in their bedrooms late at night?
- Tommy K
September 23, 2016 at 10:07 am -
JuliaM – obviously the public need to be protected from people who would endanger them. I am not convinced, however, that 24/7 incarceration is an appropriate way to treat patients who are shouty. Treatment, rehabilitation and support would be preferable to the frankly barbaric practice of locking such people away from society.
Imprisonment is a destructive and brutalising punishment but we now seem to take great delight in meting it out to people who are clearly no longer a danger to anybody. We are locking up pathetic old men for looking at dirty pictures in the privacy of their own homes. We are hounding people for offences allegedly committed decades ago, and then jailing them even though they are demonstrably no longer offending. I am sure that in the 21st century we are capable of being more constructive than chucking folk we don’t like into an oubliette.
- Jim McLean
September 23, 2016 at 12:26 pm -
Timmy K. To say that imprisonment is a destructive and brutalising punishment is silly, meaningless and demeans the millions of people in our world who actually know and experience the meaning of “destructive and brutalising punishment” on a daily basis.
- Tommy K
September 23, 2016 at 2:56 pm -
Thank you for your reply, but there is no need to be impolite. The fact that other people in the world suffer more does not make it an incorrect statement. The World Health Organisation, for example, does not consider it silly and meaningless:
http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/uploads/documents/Mentalhealthsmall.pdf
- Jim McLean
September 23, 2016 at 6:24 pm -
There was nothing impolite in my reply to you Tommy. And the pdif you kindly share does not mention “destructive and brutalising” punishment even remotely. What it does do, like you have done, is dilute the severity and seriousness of gauge concepts (mental health for them, brutal and destructive for you) and apply these terms to relatively benign situations.
I say “relatively” since language is a tool or medium and needs to be used responsibly if we are to make any sense of subjective and relative reality.
The punishment regimes of the past, the current regimes in Middle East and South America can be described as “Brutal” and destructive. But only in comparison to the much more civilised and humane punishment regimes we have in Europe. To call Europe’s or UK punishment regimes “brutal” you would need to clarify your reference or comparison point.- Tommy K
September 24, 2016 at 10:14 am -
Sorry Jim, I am not getting sidetracked into a silly and meaningless squabble about who has the nastiest punishments, If it makes you happy let’s say that the UK has the most benign prisons on earth.
Back to the subject. In some cases, it is necessary to remove people from society to prevent them harming others. It is not, however, constructive to subject people who are not a danger, and who are themselves vulnerable, to a sentence that we know is likely to further damage them and delay or halt their rehabilitation. In the 21st century, an age of political correctness and virtue signally, it would be nice if we could find a more civilised and humane approach.
- Tommy K
- Jim McLean
- Tommy K
- Jim McLean
- Tommy K
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Tommy K
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Jonathan King
September 23, 2016 at 7:07 am -
Might I point Cooners to Inside Time, the monthly newspaper distributed free to prisons (with 100,000 “captive” readers; even those who cannot read or write – a huge quantity of inmates: if you think The Sun is hard to read, try Archbold – have fellow prisoners read it to them. And every officer, governor, staff reads it plus many families and ex prisoners)? It is online and can be subscribed to. I’m biased as I write a regular column and have done so for over a decade. But it is an absolute eye opener about life in prison, the judicial system, the police, lawyers and other matters. Apart from being an essential for those interested it is also very good monthly reading.
- The Blocked Dwarf
September 23, 2016 at 8:47 am -
I am a 49 year well read, passably intelligent man. I can read Martin Luther’s bible in the original C16 German, and there was a time many years ago when I was one of perhaps 10 Brits who could read Sütterlinschrift, something almost no German can these days. I would have German colleagues ringing at work late at night to ask about German words not used since before Germany existed.
Yet I have to get The Bestes Frau In The World to write the Xmas cards, to correct every single German email I send, because I omitted to learn the genders of the thousands of nouns I learnt.
It shames me daily. It ANNOYS me daily. It frustrates and isolates me every day, almost without fail. It has cost me jobs in the past.Youngest Dwarf son is diskkSleksyk like innit. God’s own truth he cannot spell his own daughter’s name and yesterday he, I jest not, asked me ‘DaaaAd, how do you spell Norfolk?’ (he has only lived here for 15 years). He has just passed a theory test for a bus driving licence on the 6th attempt. I know it frustrates and isolates him daily. His daughter will almost certainly be teaching him to read not the other way round.
Frustration.
Isolation.
Anger.
An emotional cocktail almost guaranteed to send one, especially young men, down the wrong path.
So I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if the Government really wanted to tackle reoffending rates they would be doing every they could to ensure no prisoner left prison illiterate. Find a job with a penal record AND illiteracy? That must be damn near impossible. Not to excuse reoffending of course, everyone makes their own choices but I can understand , from my own limited insight, how hard it might be to make the right choice when you can’t even read the UB40 form.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- JuliaM
September 23, 2016 at 9:13 am -
“Danny was an 18 year old imprisoned on an indeterminate sentence for two bungled burglaries, now the same age as the young man I sat opposite in the clinic. Did you want to tell me that he deserves to die in medieval conditions, should he contract a terminal illness?”
A wee touch of hyperbole there? No-one’s going to be trepanning him, or attaching leeches, or smoking rosemary in his cell to drive out bad humours…
- Alexander Baron
September 23, 2016 at 10:36 am -
Stephen Downing has confessed more than once since he was released. On a slightly different subject, the Court Of Protection features on the Victoria Derbyshire programme this morning.
- Tommy K
September 24, 2016 at 10:57 am -
Worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/21/can-prison-work-crime
It seems we have a convict with more common sense than the people who locked him up.
- binao
September 24, 2016 at 6:56 pm -
Just dipped into the above debate on the merits or otherwise of prison. Mostly otherwise.
All very nice and cosy, except, just a guess, a lot of people think that if you misbehave there has to be some sanction, regardless of the issue of protecting society from future offences. Call it revenge if you must, most think of it as justice.
I doubt many are up for ‘an eye for an eye’, but again, just a guess, many are aware of the futility of fines for those with no money (unless stolen); or the pointlessness of months and years spent on assessments, reports, and reviews so long after the offence as to be meaningless.
It may be that in the Scandinavian socialist nirvanas with small & homogenous populations, things are different. (Not any more I suspect.) It may also be that some criminality is an invention of the modern world of victimhood at all costs. Prominent but a minority.
It seems to me as a parent, grandparent, and having managed some fair sized workforces over the years, here & abroad, that there have to be sanctions to deal with misbehaviour, there has to be justice too, proofs being proportional to the seriousness of the offence & the likely sanction; and most important, the misbehaviour must be dealt with promptly. My favourite being put your hand in the fire, it burns, you won’t do it again.
So fine, talk to people when they do wrong; maybe do it twice, but I’m damned if I want to spend a lot of time on one to ones with people who know the rules but think they’re exempt. Your child you ground or otherwise punish (love of your child is unconditional but they have to learn); an employee you sack. Society at large we lock up when all else fails.
Maybe it doesn’t work too well, I’m not aware of a practical and affordable alternative we could sell to the people.
Just a view. - Jim
September 24, 2016 at 7:35 pm -
I don’t think people were discussing or advocating non punishment or non prison. The discussion is about the treatment of elderly and mentally ill people who are in prison.
- Grandpa1940
September 26, 2016 at 1:12 pm -
Well, a mixture of regret and sorrow that we don’t treat too well those who have offended against the Law, on the grounds that they may be ill/old/daft/.
Sorry Anna, but no one seems to have pointed out the slightly-brutal truth that the old saying ‘If you can’t do the Time; don’t do the Crime’ applies whether you are eighteen, or eighty.
To use the name of Ronnie Biggs as an example of ‘compassionate release’ seems to besmirch the whole idea of compassion. He never expressed any remorse for his vicious crime, he lived a further five years in comparative luxury at the taxpayers’ expense, and his last message to the world was a wreath fashioned to resemble a two-fingered salute.
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