Potpourri – No.17
Morphine seems to have stunned everything north of the neck as well as its required task, and I can’t keep my mind on any one subject. So have several different ones, and I’ll see you tomorrow.
The Olympics – obviously.
Why do we glorify freakdom – especially in the female of the species?
As a general rule, the sportsperson who is taller, has a higher muscle-to-fat ratio, and the larger heart and lungs will have the sporting advantage. Strength and stamina are part of the physiology which we chose to term ‘masculine’. So when we wildly applaud the female Gold medal winners, we are celebrating the ability of some women to remain ‘just’ the right side of genetic or hormonal testing which would declare them to be too ‘masculine’ to compete with the other ladies.
Tomorrow, Caster Semenya will be back on the racing track; she has testosterone levels three times the normal level found in women. She has no womb or ovaries, and internal testes.
None of the above is anyway her ‘fault’; she is, in the truest definition of the word, a freak of nature. The way she was treated after the the 2009 Olympics was disgraceful – details of her medical condition were leaked for the world to gawp at.
Testosterone testing was introduced, and athletes who took hormone altering medication to increase their testosterone levels to those of Caster’s were banned; Caster, on the other hand, was permitted to take hormone altering medication to reduce her testosterone level in order to be allowed to compete. Unsurprisingly, she was not as successful. She was, however, happier in her personal life, and has now married her long term girlfriend.
Last year, Dutee Chand, another runner, successfully contested the ‘testosterone test’ thus allowing Caster Semenya to compete at the Rio Olympics.
Rather than dividing the Olympics into male and female events, in these days of fluid genders, and non-binary toilets, should we not divide sports into events for different testosterone levels?
DNA testing.
The ritual game of ‘Pass the Partner’, as played on many a suburban housing estate, may turn into a modern version of ‘Goldilocks’ in the future.
Presumably working on the basis that those who fly tip may well have had to provide their DNA to the police for other reasons at some point, Birmingham City Council are considering DNA testing dumped mattresses for clues as to their original ownership.
The local papers will be up for this. Particularly when Doris’ husband uses as evidence in his divorce, the fact that Doris, 17 of her male neighbours – and the milkman – were jointly charged with the dumping of the marital mattress…
Legal Highs.
Last night I watched the BBC3 documentary – ‘The Last Days of Legal Highs‘.
I am now terminally confused, which is why at 5.30am this morning I was grilling Mr G (the only person I know who has ever smoked weed and also was handily around at that time of day) as to why he would cheerfully join a friend he knew to be alcoholic for ‘a pint’, but would be horrified at the idea of joining him from a smoke of ‘Spice’.
OK, it was 30 years ago, and he gave up smoking cigarettes years ago, but he has no moral qualms regarding drugs, or at least ‘pot’. So why is it different? Mr G ducked out of the debate with the riposte of ‘I’ll go and make the tea’; a debating tactic he has used successfully on many an occasion.
‘Gypsy King’, the ‘legal high’ shop owner, cheerfully admitted he was in the business to make money, and defended himself by saying that he was no more responsible for people becoming addicts or even killing themselves through consumption of his product than any pub landlord.
I can’t rebut that argument in any manner that wouldn’t also apply to the sale of alcohol.
Can anyone explain to me what the moral or ethical arguments are that see the police arresting those smoking pot or ‘Spice’, but coming to the assistance of a pub landlord who wishes to sell his product to his customers in peace and quiet and would they please remove the rowdy ones?
Dalian Atkinson.
Dalian was a 6’1″, powerfully built, former footballer. When the Police were called to an incident he was involved in, he was covered in blood (he had apparently ripped a catheter from his shoulder which had been used for kidney dialysis, although the police would not have been aware of this when they entered the room). He had his hands round the throat of his Father, and was screaming ‘I am the Messiah’.
The Police had been called at 1am by someone outside the family who had merely reported a disturbance, so they would not have been aware of the family relationship nor his previous medical history.
They had to judge their response purely on what they could see. One powerfully built man, clearly very agitated and disturbed, clearly involved in something which had occasioned a serious loss of blood, equally clearly intent on strangling another man.
Now Dalian’s nephew, Fabian, who was not reportedly present, is claiming that the police used ‘excessive force’. Another local resident is claiming that from her first floor flat she could ‘hear but not see’ the police ‘kicking Dalian’. (The sound of a boot hitting a body being easily distinguished from any other sound…).
I can see this case being taken up with gusto by the ‘Black Lives Matter’ brigade.
I want to know how many of them would have handled the situation in what they think might be a ‘proportionate manner’?
As in ‘would it help to talk about it’, or ‘can I get you a nice cup of tea’.
It is a desperately sad situation; he was obviously a very sick man whether mentally or physically. His family must feel dreadful today and my sympathies are with them – and with the Police.
Atkinson’s death has also prompted fresh concern about policing and race and particularly the way police deal with black people with mental health conditions.
…mainly from people who would freak out if they were expected to deal with that situation at 1 in the morning…
- Ox
August 16, 2016 at 11:55 am -
If mr G has smoked weed from what you say I very much doubt he has ever smoked what is now commonly sold often to children and those who are disturbed in the sense of underlying mental health issues it is a world apart from the old fashioned stuff and very alarming in its effects.
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 12:21 pm -
If we’re talking about weed (rather than synthetic variations on a theme, with impossible-to-predict potential side-effects) I think the ‘world apart’ aspect is greatly exagerrated. It is stronger, that is all. There is a solution: use less & it would be very much like that which Mr G once puffed.
The problem with some is that they are drinking whiskey as though it were beer. (And children would be better off not drinking at all.)
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 12:41 pm -
Bandini, it is stronger by a much greater magnitude that you’d think.
It’s also much, much more pungent. I’m frequently assailed by the aroma on the early morning Tube, and sometimes it smells as if the chap (rarely is it a woman) has rubbed handfuls of the stuff all over themselves!
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 12:45 pm -
Oh go on, then: ‘They are drinking absinthe as though it were Top Deck’!
- Bandini
- JuliaM
- Bandini
- Moor Larkin
August 16, 2016 at 12:09 pm -
re the natural freakdom. Thoroughly enjoyed a treatise by a socialistic Professor who contended that since nature was so unequal, he could see no reason why humans shouldn’t seek to level the playing field by using drugs and other things. Equality must prevail. Last night, as super interview about why Jamaicans were so good at the runnin’ & jumpin’. A lady remarked that it was because they now trained in Jamaica instead of US Colleges and so were more patriotic and committed. Nobody mentioned West African genes.
- Tommy K
August 16, 2016 at 12:21 pm -
Before they were issued with tasers, how would they have dealt with Mr Atkinson? Presumably he would have been physically restrained. They might, of course, have used a truncheon but hopefully would not have cracked his skull.
- Retired
August 17, 2016 at 9:01 am -
As a retired police officer I have had to deal with disturbed and just plain violent people. The old style truncheon was a spectacularly useless piece of kit, it was short and was therefore mainly used as a bludgeon, blows to limbs were difficult and if your adversary had any sort of weapon you were invariably outranged. The current batons/stab vest/ CS combination was only introduced in the late 1990’s after a series of serious injuries and near misses to police officers. Physical restraint is also dangerous for all concerned – many of the deaths in police/prison custody come after prolonged physical restraint (see the ‘Mental Health Cop’ blog for details). Restraint involves usually one person per limb and another to control the head. The police do not have a ‘magic word’ that calms people down, neither are we expert at the martial arts. Add in the fact that you generally don’t know the physical state of the subject or what chemicals they have ingested then you are on to a loser from the start.
In the early noughties it was clear that something else other than CS was needed, police were being called more and more to deal with people suffering mental health crises or who were just plain nasty, if an edged weapon was involved then the only escalation available was firearms. It was clear that some type of less lethal option was needed. After an exhaustive series of tests taser emerged as the best alternative, longer range stand off weapons (baton rounds) are available and have been used but they form part of a range of options. There was still reluctance on the part of HMG to issue taser as they clung to the idea of the unarmed British bobby. My view is that you cannot expect police officers to tackle persons armed with knives with a collapsible baton and a tin of CS especially since Officer Safety Training is about one day a year.
As to the safety of taser – I haven’t been tasered but a colleague volunteered. He said it was painful but after the current ceased he was good to go again. I would add that the fantasy devices such as nets have been trialled in the US. They didn’t work.
- Retired
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 12:31 pm -
“…Birmingham City Council are considering DNA testing dumped mattresses…”
I despair at the IQ levels that you’d need in order to think up such a scheme. This is yet another case of ‘here’s a new innovation, how can we use it to avoid having to do any real work?’. A child of ten could list multiple reasons why it won’t work.
- Joe Public
August 16, 2016 at 1:22 pm -
If my memory serves me correctly, it was Julia who alerted the twittershere to the forerunner of DNA mattress-testing:
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 2:12 pm -
Heh! And it’s proving to be about as successful as you’d imagine:
http://thylacosmilus.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/totally-barking.html
- JuliaM
- Joe Public
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 12:34 pm -
During the recent Euro football competition the England & Leicester player, Jamie Vardy, was snapped with both cans of Red Bull ‘energy drink’ & some sort of chewable nicotine product – “both Red Bull and tobacoo are listed on the World Anti-Doping Agency monitoring list”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3648059/Downing-Red-Bull-chewing-tobacco-dodging-gym-no-diet-England-star-Jamie-Vardy-s-oddball-approach-Euro-2016-working-wonders.html
In a way this seems reasonable as both might be said to ‘enhance performance’ in one way or another, but shows how difficult it can be to draw the line between what is ‘illegally’ enhancing & that which gives a ‘legal’ boost.I’ve seen it suggested that ALL restrictions should be removed (and just let ’em get on with it)… it’d be sure to be a hit with the viewers!
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 16, 2016 at 12:37 pm -
see the police arresting those smoking pot or ‘Spice’
If they would only take to drinking cannabis or neo-cannabis…perhaps in a nice healthy wheatgrass thai infused Kim chi skinny smoothy then I think the junkies would have a lot less stress with the Peelers getting heeeaaavy with them…like..dude…really.
But the moment anyone starts *trigger warning for any with a genetic tendency (so NOT your fault, you rock!) addictive tendencies* smoking, or anything that even resembles smoking , anything anywhere, the Moral Apostles saddle up and ride, child protecting Valkyries. BAN-shees wailing for the evil ADDICT to be removed from society.
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 12:38 pm -
“…and particularly the way police deal with black people with mental health conditions.”
Do the people who write such tosh think that the cops, on getting out of their patrol cars and seeing a white man behaving in the manner that Atkinson was behaving, would holster their Tasers and start trying to talk them down?
Of course they wouldn’t!
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 16, 2016 at 12:52 pm -
tosh
Thats the word I was looking for! Thank you Jules x
I was going to go with balderdash or crap but ‘tosh’ sums it perfectly. Toshy tosh of the highest order of toshite. Anyone who has actually faced someone in the the grips of psychotic rage (or on PCP) would think the police had used remarkable restraint in only tazering thrice, most other places they’d have pumped A full of enough lead to require a Health Warning on his coffin.AND what on Earth has S. Khan been smoking? Spice?! ““If the man has been Tasered three times, that is excessive use of force, and that is probably the reason he subsequently died. There should be a life-threatening incident before Tasers should be used. If in this incident there was no knife or gun or any weapon or any threat to the officer which they could deal with in the conventional ways”. So the officers should have just stood there and watched as A strangled his dad to death?!? ‘life threatening’ only applies when the assault is upon an officer? Khan would then have been screaming ‘they didn’t tazer A cos his dad was black too and black lives don’t matter to whitey’.
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 1:14 pm -
Sophie Khan is a …..
Well, I’d better not say what I think of her. It might tax even the landlady’s forbearance!
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 16, 2016 at 1:35 pm -
Sophie Khan is a …..
a 4 letter name beginning with a ‘K’ sound?
- Ed P
August 16, 2016 at 1:51 pm -
I Khant think what it could be…
- Ed P
- The Blocked Dwarf
- JuliaM
- Tommy K
August 16, 2016 at 7:02 pm -
Quite. There are concerns over how people with mental health issues are handled, regardless of their skin colour. The police are not mental health nurses and it is unrealistic to expect them to respond “sensitively” to a patient who is throttling the life out of someone: the intervention needs to be with health services to avoid the patient ever getting to a situation where the police are involved in the first place. Unfortunately far too many people who should be being treated properly in hospital or in the community by health care professionals are, instead, dealt with by the police and prison services.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 1:05 pm -
The Guardian-piece dealing with Dalian Atkinson’s death paints a very different picture to what I was reading yesterday evening: rolling-news, ‘we’ll print anything’, uncorroborated claims which sent me to bed thinking that UK coppers had been standing around an incapacitated body which they proceeded to kick to death. Incredibly irresponsible reporting.
From what the family are saying it sounds like a horrible tragedy:
“He got Dad by the throat and said he was going to kill him. He told Dad he had already killed me, our brother, Paul, and sister, Elaine, and he had come for him. He was not in his right mind.”It seems a little early to jump to conclusions about excessive use of force though I saw one comment suggesting that, at the very least, the firing of a Taser by the police ought to automatically lead to an immediate call for an ambulance being made (to cover any eventuality). If that’s not already the case then I think it probably should be – and knowing that an ambulance would be on the way might also lead to the curtailment of the ‘over enthusiastic’ use of the device.
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 1:16 pm -
Why waste the ambulance service’s precious time? Most people (absent heart condition) recover just fine.
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 1:24 pm -
Because some people don’t (particularly those with heart conditions, of which there are many)!
And because it would not impact on cases (such as that discussed here) where its use seems perfectly justified but it might make a trigger-happy copper think twice in cases where it clearly isn’t. The figures aren’t as high as I thought anyway – little over 5 discharges a day over the whole of England & Wales. The ambulance service could absorb this, I’m sure.- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 1:36 pm -
Sorry, forgot to add that many of those being tasered are said to have mental health problems – the ambulance might be more appropriate anyway. “Emergency vehicles responded to 6.33 million calls; 95.1 per cent (6.02 million) were responses to a 999 emergency call…”
http://digital.nhs.uk/article/4905/Ambulance-services-16-emergency-calls-to-999-per-minute- Retired
August 17, 2016 at 9:05 am -
The ambulance service will not attend if the address/person is flagged up as showing a risk of violence. The police will be called by the appropriate ambulance service as a matter of course. BTW LAS was creaking when I left the Met in 2008 as demand increased.
- Bandini
August 17, 2016 at 10:25 am -
I wasn´t aware of this, Retired, and I have to admit to some scepticism. Having had a quick search it seems that the use of ambulances which also carry a police officer (to deal with incidents requiring both) was trialled a few years ago & is now a part of the service – at least in some areas at some times (weekends in city centres, for example).
The numbers of call outs to prisons is shocking: once every 20 minutes:
“The Prison Service said: “A significant number of emergency services callouts are for non-violent incidents [but presumably some are?], including where they attended as a precaution and when the situation was resolved by prison staff.””Leaving aside questions of terrorist attacks and the like (where surely the medical staff do not ‘hold back’ until given the all-clear?) I’m still not sure why an incapacitated suspect (having been tasered and cuffed) would be refused assistance; in one of the examples from The Guardian-piece below we have this:
“…a neighbour described seeing a drunk-looking man walk out of the block of flats where the suspected burglary had taken place.
The man was escorted by at least three officers into a custody van, and said “help me”, said the neighbour, who did not want to be named.
“I looked out and there were about seven cop cars, and this guy came out – he was still alive then, he was still walking,” he said. “There were about nine of them and they were carrying him, one under each arm and another in front to hold him up. He was saying ‘help me’. He looked drunk.””Would he have been refused assistance? It may have made no difference, of course, but he died later.
- Bandini
- Retired
- leady
August 16, 2016 at 1:36 pm -
An ambulance for everyone of the thousands of firings, based on the handful of complications ? I don’t think that’s reasonable
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 1:40 pm -
See above – there are a surprisingly low number of firings (about 5 a day across England and Wales). The majority of ‘uses’ of Taser are ‘non-discharges’ which obviously wouldn’t require an ambulance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-use-of-taser-statistics-england-and-wales-1-january-to-31-december-2014/police-use-of-taser-statistics-england-and-wales-2014- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 2:14 pm -
Bandini, do you feel like explaining to the sobbing widow why no ambulance could respond to her husband’s heart attack because it was needed on standby in case Stabby McChav felt a little woozy..?
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 2:30 pm -
I really don’t think 5 calls a day is going to have much impact on those more-than 16-thousand!
(And there’ll be plenty of frivolous calls in those 16-thousand which don’t involve anything as potentially dangerous as a ‘less lethal’ device – maybe ‘take aim’ at some of those first?)
It might also prevent a death or two & save a long drawn-out IPCC investigation for all involved, in turn leaving a copper or two without a death on his conscience (when the stabber turns out to be a psychiatric pacient & not the living embodiment of pure evil).Adding in the feeling of reassurance for the public (and hence less antagonism directed towards the police) I can’t see much downside to be honest.
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 2:37 pm -
(Sorry – again – I forgot to add that those figures which greatly surprised me seem to show that the THREAT of the use of the Taser is very effective at subduing the suspected wrongdoer & therefore its use – i.e. firing – is very rarely needed. Those against whom the mere threat is NOT effective might be oblivious to what’s coming for a good reason: a mental health problem. And hence the mentally ill are statistically ‘over represented’ in the figures.)
- JuliaM
August 16, 2016 at 2:45 pm -
I wonder if the Afro Caribbean ‘community’ are similarly over-represented in the legions of the mentally ill? Thus leading to the statistical abnormality that BLM UK are so sure is purely down to ‘racism’?
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 3:01 pm -
Apparently they are!
https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/b/black-asian-and-minority-ethnic-bame-communities
Then again, so do the Irish (click the link)! - Mrs Grimble
August 16, 2016 at 9:39 pm -
In Mr Atkinson’s case race is unlikely to have had any connection with his mental illness. Psychosis is a known side-effect of severe kidney disease, due to the buildup of toxins.
- Bandini
- tdf
August 18, 2016 at 4:43 pm -
“then again, so do the Irish”
I’ve read about this before, a lot of Irish that emigrated to the UK during the 1950s in particular ended up in very poor circumstances. They are often too embarassed to go home because it would involve ‘admitting’ to their relatives that things didn’t work out.
By contrast recent Irish emigrants to the UK tend to be better educated, international mobile, etc.
The Pogues ‘Thousands are Sailing’ is about that milieu, though with more of a US focus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousands_Are_Sailing
- JuliaM
- Bandini
- Bandini
- JuliaM
- Bandini
- dearieme
August 16, 2016 at 3:01 pm -
“The ambulance service could absorb this, I’m sure.” No doubt; which of its other patients do you suggest make the sacrifice of not getting to use an ambulance at that time?
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 3:05 pm -
See above – the ones who are making frivolous calls for minor scratches & haven’t just been shot with a ‘less lethal’ device. If we can find 5 of those (out of the 16,000 calls a day) then the books would be balanced – bingo!
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm -
“First you need to understand that London’s 999 service is on the very edge of melting down. The number of calls has risen dramatically and ambulances are sent willy-nilly to all manner of pointless non-emergencies. There are supposed to be systems in place that sort the hypochondriacs from the heart attacks, but for one reason or another they are all inadequate. The operators at 111, for instance, are untrained and risk-averse, so they send ambulances to the slightest sniffle. For a 999 operator, the words ‘chest pain’ or ‘difficulty breathing’ automatically mean an ambulance, though it’s often just a panic attack on the line.”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/08/londons-999-emergency/
- Bandini
- Bandini
- Bandini
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 16, 2016 at 4:02 pm -
lead to the curtailment of the ‘over enthusiastic’ use of the device.
Uhm there is nothing ‘trigger happy’ nor ‘over enthusiastic’ about tazering a ragin’Path a number of times. As said before (and in the article) one tazer shot may well not stop someone in mental ‘distress’ nor someone on one of any number of drugs. Also no ambulance crew would be allowed into the building until the ‘victim-of-police-brutality’ was not only subdued and restrained but the entire scene/room declared ‘safe’ and Captain Flack had radio’d from Ambulance HQ to give his boys permission to enter….and do I need to tell you how good communication between Chigley Police HQ and Trumpton Ambulance Station is? By the time the paramedics got to treat the unfortunate victim -of-institutional-racism he’d have stopped smoking, be going cold and have about as much chance of revival as the Black & White Minsteral Show.
- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 4:25 pm -
I was thinking more of cases like this one, TBD:
“Police were ordered to apologise in person last year to an elderly blind man who was Tasered after they mistook his white stick for a samurai sword.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/22/man-dies-shot-taser-ipcc-police-staffordshire-suspected-burglary
- Bandini
- JuliaM
- Fat Steve
August 16, 2016 at 1:55 pm -
as to why he would cheerfully join a friend he knew to be alcoholic for ‘a pint’, but would be horrified at the idea of joining him from a smoke of ‘Spice’.
Gosh this rang a bell with me !!!!
I fess up that in Middle Age (but not when young or for some years now) I indulged in occasional marijuana use ….I disliked smoking it despite being a chain smoker then and now so would chew a small piece. I didn’t use it recreationally but as an aid to personal thought for which incidentally I found it to be the greatest of help. In short it was always a personal and never a shared experience even with those closest to me though I had a kitty who would ALWAYS come and join me as I was starting to come down from the ‘trip’ ……. to me there could be no other explanation that whever in the house he might be he could sense mt emotion.
In contrast I have been at times a heavy drinker and still indulge heavily on occasion but almost never alone.
My opinion of each ? Well I think personally that they are fundamentally different narcotics/stimulants/drugs/whatever (?) ….both having (at times with alcohol although in the case of marijuana almost always) beneficial (but very different) purposes.
Just a personal view and nothing more - Pericles Xanthippou
August 16, 2016 at 1:57 pm -
“I’ll go and make the tea.”
Discretion is the better part …
“I can see this case being taken up with gusto by the ‘Black Lives Matter’ brigade.
“I want to know how many of them would have handled the situation in what they think might be a ‘proportionate manner’?”
They couldn’t possibly tell you: none of them would join the force to begin with; none would ever have to take such a decision.
ΠΞ
- Fat Steve
August 16, 2016 at 2:00 pm -
P.S.. I have been given morphine and detested it (hope you are faring better with it Anna) ……and also Pethedine which I have to say was absolutely FABULOUS.
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 16, 2016 at 2:57 pm -
Mr G.:”‘I’ll go and make the tea”
S&G.: “ so I smoke a pint of tea a day ”…frightening how my mind makes connections.
- Cascadian
August 16, 2016 at 4:55 pm -
“I can see this case being taken up with gusto by the ‘Black Lives Matter’ brigade.”……….“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
― Booker T. WashingtonThat quote would have been uttered in the late 1800s or early 1900s, yet still there is a class of people willing to indulge the charlatans.
- JuliaM
August 17, 2016 at 8:01 am -
A growing class….
- JuliaM
- Pericles Xanthippou
August 16, 2016 at 8:13 pm -
I must admit total incomprehension. My understand of sexual taxonomy is this:
GonadsQuantitySex
Testes>0Male
Ovaries>0Female
I really couldn’t care less about the Olympics but should like some-one to tell me what’s wrong with my interpretation of human anatomy — something I’ve® been studying since the age of seven.
ΠΞ
- Pericles Xanthippou
August 16, 2016 at 8:16 pm -
Sorry: my (limited) understanding of the inclusion of HTML in comments is clearly inadequate to the task.
ΠΞ
- Pericles Xanthippou
- Steve Brown
August 16, 2016 at 10:15 pm -
Cards on the table.
I’m a retired Police Officer, retired with the rank of Chief Inspector from the Hong Kong Police (formerly the Royal Hong Kong Police). I have been in the forefront of scenes like that encountered by the Officers who used Tasers. What no-one thinks about is what the Police Officer attending such an incident can do. He or she sees a blood-stained person throttling another person whilst shouting that he is the messiah.
There’s no time to enquire as to the mental state of the one assaulting, there’s only a second or two to decide what to do. Violence is being used by the suspect, violence is the Police response. The use of a Taser is to be applauded. I didn’t have one, all I had was a Smith & Wesson Model 10 revolver loaded with semi-hollow point bullets. I would have fired two rounds in such circumstances (the ‘double-tap’ was Force procedure).
In my opinion, the Police did well, and did the right thing. Pity the assailant died, but, hey-ho. It happens.- Bandini
August 16, 2016 at 11:59 pm -
Maybe best to hold off on that double-tap for a while as it’s by no means clear – and in fact seems NOT to be the case – that the police were saving someone from being throttled. The suspect was ‘bearing down’ on them in the street, and it seems the elderly father was elsewhere. Or perhaps the narrative will change as more info comes to light.
Until then, those leaping to the conclusion that it was an example of wanton police violence are the other side of the coin to those claiming it was totally justified. I hope it was (for the families sake & to save us from those who’d use any incident to further their own cause) but we’ll have to just wait & see.
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 17, 2016 at 12:34 am -
Or perhaps the narrative will change as more info comes to light.
Does it sound callous if i ask you to pass me the popcorn?
- The Blocked Dwarf
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 17, 2016 at 12:33 am -
semi-hollow point bullets. I would have fired two rounds in such circumstances
and even with semi-hollows two may not have been enough, unless they were to the head or the neck(spine). The amount of damage someone in the grips of psychotic rage can sustain and still be a danger verges on the ‘physically impossible’ . From personal experience I can testify that adrenaline can give a ‘normal’ person at least 6 times the strength of a ‘normal’ man (I know that because that’s how many men with crow bars it took to move the car wreck that I had shoved effortlessly out of the danger zone onto the hard shoulder-a car with immovable front wheels and with 4 passengers inside-albeit it 3 of them small children so maybe not quite so impressive as it first sounds).There are accounts of entire drums being emptied and the shooter still finding himself being beaten to death with his then empty weapon.
- Bandini
August 17, 2016 at 12:51 am -
For all the psychotic rage of this Marvel comic baddie his attempt at supposedly throttling his 85-year-old father seems to have come to naught… all that psychotic rage must have been concentrated far away from his wrists & fingers, eh?!?
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 17, 2016 at 8:56 am -
Less of the sarcasm please Bandini, live with a ‘path for a few years and you will get a whole new insight into what someone in the grips of an ‘episode’ is capable of . However yes you’re right that the fact that the 85 year old seems to have survived would tend to indicate that the reports are inaccurate and the whole thing didn’t go down as reported (quelle surprise).
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Bandini
- Jonathan King
August 17, 2016 at 11:21 am -
Steve; it’s only the “hey-ho” I object to.
- Tommy K
August 17, 2016 at 1:54 pm -
I wonder if “hey-ho” would apply if it was copper that lost their life…
- Tommy K
- Bandini
- SagaxSenex
August 17, 2016 at 8:33 am -
Re. Olympic games: I’ve always thought there should be two Olympics. One returning to the pristine amateur past, with athletes taking no reward except the taking part. The other would be completely open and receive unlimited support from the pharmaceutical industry.
As for morphine frying the brain, I was assured that it would not impair my cognitive faculties. Fentanyl (which I’m on now) is I believe 80 times stronger than morphine. Totally buggered my ability to continue my translation business.
Still, how much is one prepared to pay for another day/year of a relatively decent life (or QUALY), as the target hitters want to call it).
- Jonathan King
August 17, 2016 at 11:16 am -
I agree that we should not rush to condemn police behaviour in this case but I do think it illustrates police behaviour in general – from dead Brazilians to assisting false accusers and arrest before investigation, from failing to stop loonies killing boys when mothers call and ask for help, from inability to find killers like Levi Belfield for years allowing him to kill more innocent girls, from failing to investigate the Deepcut killings – something has gone badly wrong in selecting, training and guiding police officers.
- The Blocked Dwarf
August 17, 2016 at 2:17 pm -
something has gone badly wrong in selecting, training and guiding police officers.
Perhaps the Great British Public gets the Police Force that The Great British Public deserve? Sorry, don’t mean to sound snippish but I reread the wiki on Kiszko case yesterday and it still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. The girls who gave false testimony just ‘for a laugh’ in the 70s, who went unpunished and remained unrepentant, may have brought one or more of today’s police officers into this world….and that thought scares me.
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Andrew Duffin
August 17, 2016 at 2:46 pm -
So they’re planning to make legal highs illegal?
Do they have a problem with the meanings of words, at all?
- suffolkgirl
August 18, 2016 at 12:00 am -
On the tasering problem Radio 4 interviewed a young academic who had been studying the use of tasers for some time. She was very impressive not least in pointing out that the recorded examples of use included a proportion where they were drawn to scare individuals but not fired. She pointed out too that there was little follow up on cases, and so it was not possible to disentangle how far the actual physical effect of being shot by a Taser related to other equally scary, for the arrestee, circumstances of his or her arrest. She also pointed out that people had died or been injured when police used more traditional force. She had a well informed and calm approach which made me think that money spent on her work was probably well spent.
- Lilith
August 18, 2016 at 10:26 am -
I heard her. Remarkable. BBC produces commentary with facts not opinion!
- Lilith
- Hadleigh Fan
August 21, 2016 at 11:41 am -
I saw a video of Caster Semenya running. It is built like a bloke. Has a chest and limbs like a bloke. Has a head like a bloke.Has a backside like a bloke. Has a wife. Apparently has testicles.
I imagine that the other competitors feel somewhat robbed.
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