The Morality Police.
What is a Police Force to do with falling crime figures? Not enough murder and property theft to go round the employees? Start shedding unionised employees? Accept lower pay? Eat more doughnuts? Learn to live with the fate of the Liverpool dockers? Or turn their hands to new or forgotten crimes to keep the figures up?
We were mildly amused when they started to occupy themselves with Keiran who had called Kyle’s Mum an old slag on Facebook, less amused when they started interrogating ageing celebrities on the grounds that there was a rumour they had once placed their penis on the office desk in full view of *gasp* a female of the species. They turned their backs on the abuse of young women in Rochdale and Oxford, and plucked the much easier fruit of specialising in ‘he said/she said’ from 40 and 50 years ago. With the gleeful assistance of the dying newspaper trade.
Nothing boosts the media trade like a good sex scandal involving a famous name. Acquittals were buried on page 14; ‘arrests’, ‘searches’ and ‘interviews’ were klaxoned across the front pages. So long as they picked on the shifty eyed, the eccentric, the never-married, the ‘known-to-be-gay-and-we-didn’t-agree-with-gay marriage-anyway’ they got away with it; mere mutterings in dark corners from concerned citizens.
Then they picked on Cliff Richard, pitchforked him in public on the 6pm news, and ten-fold a thousand lifelong fans marched across the cyberways in uproar, quickly joined by an army of young Christians. ‘Cliff should never have been treated like this’ they cried – and a thousand voices answered them – ‘you don’t think sexual allegations should be investigated – shame on you’. ‘No, no,’ cried Cliff’s supporters, ‘they should be investigated, but in secret, out of the public gaze, unless there really are charges to be put’.
There, right there, I part company with those voices.
I was tempted at one time to clamour for anonymity until charges were put – but then I realised that the police would merely charge their ‘chosen one’ with not having a dog licence, or having an image of their six year old niece on their computer – charges which could be cropped at a future date – and then carry on as before. Phoning the media with a ‘hot story’. Keeping themselves fully employed.
Let me tell you what happens when the Police ‘investigate’ in secret. When the full glare of publicity is withdrawn. When everything is carried out discretely behind closed doors.
Fear not, I am not about to transport you to Beria’s Russia, a land of unpronounceable names. Nor to post-war East Germany. We will be staying in the glorious countryside of Yorkshire. His name is John, a fine English name. Named after the King who signed Magna Carta and enshrined the right to judgment by a jury of your peers – not the local cop-shop. Irony be thy name.
When John was still a university student, he went to a ‘fetish club’ – run by students as it happens. He went with a fellow female student. It is not publicly recorded whether they enjoyed the visit or not; there were, however, no recorded complaints from either of them subsequently.
In July of 2014, John was accused by another woman of having ‘raped’ her. She was, she said, a friend of his. He had arrived at her house and they had had a ‘long conversation’ during which he had claimed that he had ‘raped, tortured and killed’ other women. After this ‘long conversation’ he had carried her up to her bed’. (No comment). After they had sex, he had appeared ‘elated, like he had won the lottery’.
After the alleged attack, she had got back into bed with the now sleeping figure of John, and had remained in contact with him, exchanging friendly messages on Facebook, as you do, for some weeks after this incident.
Not surprisingly, the jury was unable to agree whether this event constituted rape or not. John was sent for retrial.
In the retrial she claimed that during a session of ‘rough sex’ he had bitten her and scratched her. John denied having bitten her, but said that the scratch occurred during a massage after consensual sex. The jury acquitted him.
During the course of the retrial, it emerged that the Police now had John’s medical records, and they called in evidence a community psychiatric nurse, Kevin Holmes. Kevin said that he had been asked to speak to John, at John’s request via his GP.
John was troubled, it seems, by some of his sexual fantasies, and his inclination to discuss them with female partners. I am guessing that he wanted to know whether such thoughts were normal or likely to be acted upon – although he said that he had never acted upon them.
One would have thought that the young lady who allowed herself to be carried up to bed by a partner she remained in contact with, after he had claimed that he was in the habit of ‘raping, torturing and killing women’, would have been well advised to have a chat with young Kevin Holmes, but there is no record of her having done so.
Whatever; at the second trial the jury was able to agree that the incident did not comprise rape and John was acquitted of the charge. A free man, an innocent man. It was not the end of the matter.
For the police, now in possession of the record of John’s conversation with Kevin Holmes, applied for and got, an order forbidding John having sex with any person without giving them 24 hours notice. He wasn’t named on that notice. You would have been unaware, unless you were an avid reader of the local papers, that the person given this draconian order was the same man declared innocent. John O’Neill.
Behind closed doors, in secret, the police had decided that they didn’t agree with the jury, and brought in their own verdict.
Other conditions attached to this order included him having to hand over the PIN for his mobile phone to police, and not to use internet-connected devices that could not later be checked by officers. No Tinder before tea for John.
John decided, after taking legal advice, not to give them the PIN code as a point of principle, because he said the conditions of sexual risk orders were supposed to be prohibitive, not obligatory.
He was arrested for breaching the order and held in police custody overnight.
Breaches of the order could potentially land John in jail for five years. Before engaging in ‘any sexual activity’ – a definition which can include a simple hug! – John must disclose the details of any female including her name, address and date of birth at least 24 hours prior to any sexual activity taking place.
Whereupon, she will be presented with the police at her door, informing her that the man she shared a coffee with yesterday is a ‘dangerous sexual predator’. Yeah, she is bound to turn up to see the re-run of ‘Gone With The Wind’ in the back row of the local Odeon after such a visit…
The reason, the only reason, I can share this with you is because John himself asked a judge for permission for this to be made public. He has been on hunger strike since talking to a ‘London journalist’ and finding that the story could not be written because the order was an ‘anonymous order’.
Yesterday, District Judge Adrian Lower, sitting in York Magistrates Court, lifted that order.
It is really not a good idea to allow the Police to act in secret, no matter how badly you feel about the entirely innocent Paul Gambaccini or Cliff Richard.
What we really need is not anonymity for those accused of sex offences, but an open discussion as to whether we want the police to be in charge of our morality – and how we get out of the current position whereby the College of Policing, a private organisation, not regulated by parliament, has a free rein to decide how the police go about their business.
We need democratic control over our Police force – we can worry about the details later.
Admin: I am well aware, thank you, that there are two other ‘John O’Neill’s’ of the same age on the sex offender register. This is NOT the same man. This John O’Neill doesn’t have so much as a parking ticket to his name. So just curb your Googling enthusiasm in the comments and don’t make suggestions that the ‘John’ of which I write might have a darker sexual history than he does. Thank you.
- Joe Public
July 15, 2016 at 11:01 am -
Thanks for shedding light into some of the darker recesses of our judicial system.
- Eric
July 16, 2016 at 11:49 am -
Amazing isn’t it? Not one single publication has delved into this fascinating case rather they have simply reported the barest details. Meanwhile the Landlady knocks them all for six by doing the job we once expected our hacks to do- investigate.
- Eric
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 11:10 am -
There´s a good video interview with him here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1308957/John-O-Neill-Draconian-court-order-prevents-normal-life.html
I was surprised to see his face appear in the press, but I suppose he feels he has no choice but to ‘face up’ to the situation.- Eric
July 16, 2016 at 11:50 am -
Reality is- he will (hopefully) now find groupies eager to take advantage of his fame and involve themselves in the process of him contacting Plod about his sexual adventures.
- Liz Kaspar
November 22, 2016 at 9:51 pm -
Eric you’ve just given me an idea: though I also saw variants on the idea further downthread: Why not simply – I think this would be best done by a protest group acting in his name “Reasonable People Against Stupid Laws/Unfair Court Orders” etc – have a LARGE group of females from this as-yet-to-be-formed group + other sources – would have to be female because of the order: So, a BIG group of women protestors from ages 16 to 80, say, ALL contacting this particular plod station (could be one per day) saying that they were considering having sex with this guy and that he had agreed but had told them that they needed to ok it with Plod first and had explained why etc.. Even if the women were not required to make the contact with the authorities initially they could do so in the guise of a complaint..
Plod would soon get tired/bored of it: feel that they were being “swamped”, realise that it was unenforceable, whichever happened first. And it would have the enviable side-effect of getting this guy a reputation as a stud! & it would make, for once, a truly brilliant newspaper story!!
Reminds me, for some reason, of a half-remembered sf story by, not Philip K Dick, but by the slyly enigmatic and sexier Robert Sheckley!Anyway: I believe I did hear a few bleats of this story and its aftermath, in recent months, in the MSM. Didn’t some judge eventually decide the court order was unenforceable??
- Liz Kaspar
- Eric
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 11:11 am -
And the Home Sec who brought in such obscene orders, or at least didn’t disavow them (I haven’t checked the history of them) has just been declared Prime Minister and she will be doing her best to make sure that people like John no longer have recourse to the ECHR ? How can such an order not be a breach of his most fundamental human right to shag whoever will agree to it? Brexiting the Magna Carta.
Seriously whose idea was it to go all iconoclastic on the most basic tenets of English Law- that we punish people for crimes they have committed? I’m betting Blair had his finger in there somewhere…punishing Landlords for the crimes of others.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 11:15 am -
PS. thank you for keeping us up to date on this story. After yesterday’s post about unfairness it is also good to be reminded that there are poor sods out there who are really being treated unfairly…if not illegally.
- windsock
July 15, 2016 at 11:42 am -
Blunkett, 2003
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/part/2/crossheading/sexual-offences-prevention-orders
- AndyM
July 16, 2016 at 8:43 am -
Not being a lawyer, what I’m about to write may be utter tosh, but this law seems to be in place to restrain a potentially dangerous person while they are a “defendent”, i.e. before they have been tried. Once they have been acquitted, surely they are no longer the defendent and therefore can not be subject to an order (unless not guilty by reason of insanity etc). So, IMHO, the judge is wrong and the order invalid. I can see the point of such restraint before trial, but not once a verdict has been reached.
- windsock
July 16, 2016 at 8:48 am -
SOPOs are often given to convicted sex offenders when they are released early from prison on licence. If they breach the terms of the SOPO, they are whisked back to prison, pronto. I know of one case in which a man was returned to prison for looking at a schoolgirl in the “wrong” way.
- windsock
- Eric
July 16, 2016 at 11:54 am -
Was it Blunkett? A perverted and twisted man in body & soul.
- AndyM
- The Blocked Dwarf
- windsock
July 15, 2016 at 11:39 am -
According to the Telegraph, it was the judge in the 2nd trial who initiated this, not the police:
“But following the case Judge Simon Bourne-Arton, QC, made the rare decision to speak out.
Addressing prosecutor Jane Beckett, he said: “Miss Beckett, please could you inform the authorities that although this man has been acquitted, it is my judgment he is a very dangerous individual. That’s my assessment having looked at him for five days this week.”
An appalling miscarriage of justice.
- JuliaM
July 15, 2016 at 12:38 pm -
The police didn’t refuse to act, though, did they?
- windsock
July 15, 2016 at 12:50 pm -
No. I am not a lawyer – what would have happened if they had refused to follow through?
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 12:50 pm -
They probably aren’t allowed to refuse to act on a Court Order. Mind you, how they chose to interpret it …is a buzzer really a comms device in any meaningful sense of the word?
- Peter Raite
July 15, 2016 at 3:40 pm -
The legal definition of a “communications device” is probably so vague that it’ll cover two tin cans and a piece of string.
- Peter Raite
- windsock
- JuliaM
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 11:44 am -
Just been trying to imagine what I would do if I were in his shoes. I think I would turn the tables on the police, hit them where it hurts …in the pockets and watches. I would ask all my female supporters (what about male supporters or don’t they deserve protection?) to write to me and book an appointment to meet me for coffee. Hundreds of them. Then every morning present the police with a list of the women, from all round the country, they have to notify within the next 24 hours. God help them, the Police, if they miss even one such notification visit. “POLICE LET ME MEET A SEX OFFENDER”. *Daily Mail Caps*.
- Mudplugger
July 15, 2016 at 11:54 am -
God, you’re evil when riled – I love it.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 12:22 pm -
Actually if it were me I would revive my contacts among the tranny scene. Find a friendly post-op Woman who hadn’t gotten the Certification (ie she would be sent to a male prison despite possessing a vagina). So legally she is still a male…and as far as I can tell from the reports the order only speaks of ‘females’ needing to be notified…
That ‘Police let me date a Sex offender’ headline would tick ALL the ‘offended’ boxes!
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Carol42
July 15, 2016 at 2:13 pm -
Brilliant !
- Eric
July 16, 2016 at 11:57 am -
Yes that’s how to handle it. After all I do not think the order carries any penalty for informing Plod of his coming (?) activities but then at the crucial point, decided it will be a non event. Mind you Plod might demand that once having been informed of a cuming act of sex, proof must be provided that it took place.
I can think of ways of making that a nuisance as well. - theyfearthehare
July 19, 2016 at 12:47 pm -
absolute genius.
- Mudplugger
- A Potted Plant
July 15, 2016 at 11:58 am -
If the people of the UK ever regain their most fundamental legal right – the right to face (know) their accuser in any criminal proceding against them – then I will concur with you, Anna.
But in my opinion, the absolute anonymity for life, which competent adult sex crime complainants now enjoy in the UK, is inherently unjust. Even when no obvious injustice arises in the short term from a complainant’s anonymity, I believe your justice system suffers warping & distorting effects through every instance – a corrosive influence the im pact of which may not be apparent for years or even decades.
So long as competent adult sex crime complainants enjoy anonymity for life, I would have to support alleged perpetrator’s anonymity as a balancing out measure.- Eric
July 16, 2016 at 11:59 am -
The feminist Germaine Greer is an absolute opponent of anonymity for rape victims and she makes a good point about it: it re-enforces that anyone who is raped is somehow a lesser person and should hide their ‘shame’.
- Eric
- Fat Steve
July 15, 2016 at 12:37 pm -
In the light of the Judges comments my opinion is that the Police had no alternative to act as they have done. The issue I suggest is whether the Judge exceeded his authority. Traditionally a Judge under the adversarial system is there to balance the Prosecution and Defence by reference to Court rules of evidence and proceedure to ensure the ‘Game’ is played fairly. Guilty men do go free ….that I am afraid is life.
I suggest the judge is neither competant or has authority to voice a personal opinionin the manner he did.
I am rather reminded of the Sally Clarke case where ‘Expert’ doctors (one of whom merely saw Mr Clarke on television) believed they had ‘cracked’ the case with the worse than Kafkaesque outcome.
I do wonder a bit if the Police, having been left in the position they have haven’t adopted tbd’s tactic …..namely ok it nonsense lets show its nonsense by enforcing it as the Judge has suggested we must so we don’t get embroiled in this sort of nonsense again .- JuliaM
July 15, 2016 at 12:39 pm -
Really, Steve? Is that why the Nottinghamshire Farce is now considering wolf-whistling to be a ‘hate crime’?
- Fat Steve
July 15, 2016 at 12:53 pm -
Sorry Julia M in my ivory tower I have missed the Nottinghamshire Farce so can’t pick up on your reference …..incidentallyin suggesting Guilty Man go free I was only making a general observation and not a specific one in this case.
- JuliaM
July 15, 2016 at 1:17 pm -
Here you go:
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 1:39 pm -
Their definition of a crime includes, er, non-crimes:
“The Nottinghamshire force defines a hate crime as “any incident which may or may not be deemed as a criminal offence, which is perceived by the victim or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hatred”.”
One of those in favour:
“…In a recent poll we found that 85% of women aged 18-24 have experienced unwanted sexual attention in public places and 45% have experienced unwanted sexual touching, which can amount to sexual assault.”
In which hell-hole do these people live? These figures just don’t ring true.
- Ljh
July 15, 2016 at 2:11 pm -
I have two independent rather gorgeous daughters in their early twenties who regularly use public transport and live on a well lit street in a middleclass area of N1. Both experience harassment regularly such as being followed with extreme sexual innuendoes several times a year and report attempts at groping about every six months. Charges against one offender were dropped in May. Their friends regard this as about par.
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 2:44 pm -
The last time I paid much attention to this topic was when someone secretly recorded a stroll through the streets of, I think, New York; it was hard to be sure given the edited nature of the recording but there seemed to be some genuinely creepy oddballs out there.
Totally coincidentally, I grew tired of hearing about a ‘fantastic’ song taking the world by storm & thought I’d better at least have a look to see what was getting people so excited – Mark Ronson’s ‘Uptown Funk’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPf0YbXqDm0The video (with over 1.7 billion views) starts with… well, a ‘hate crime’. And they return to re-offend later on, too: a group of men leering at headless women as they pass by. It was weird watching this immediately after the first video. Where does the admiring glance finish & the lecherous stare begin? Or are they both now forbidden?
The Notts police are on about “unwanted or uninvited physical or verbal contact or engagement”; should a letter of introduction be carried over to the woman (on a silver platter by a disinterested third-party)?
I’m not sure what an “attempt at groping” would consist of, to be honest, but having previously lived in the glorious capital and having had my share of scrapes on public transport – a special mention for the night bus! – your daughters (and everyone else) have my sympathy. But the current push towards criminalising behaviour rather than, er, actual crimes seems to be an ideological war against approximately 50% of the population. I’m off to dust of my cape & top-hat…
- Ho Hum
July 15, 2016 at 3:50 pm -
I haven’t witnessed it myself but I understand that this video both deals with, and creates, a real crime against humanity simultaneously. At the end the perpetrator is also suitably castigated too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO7t7fRk4IU
- Ljh
July 15, 2016 at 3:51 pm -
So coming out of a side alley to grab a girls’s tits from behind is to be tolerated?
Also running through a litany of violent sexual fantasies allowed while walking behind a single female is freedom of speech?
There are a lot of creeps out there, they are 99% males and make life unpleasant and sometimes unsafe for young women on their own. Should my daughters wear black sacks and venture out only if accompanied by a male relative?- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 3:57 pm -
Should my daughters wear black sacks and venture out only if accompanied by a male relative?
*invokes Rule 36*
….did you know there even sites for those who like their women to dress ‘Amish’? I’m sure biffa bags are someone’s taste…’hijab porn’ is certainly a ‘thing’.
- Mrs Grimble
July 15, 2016 at 8:46 pm -
‘Hijab porn’ has been a thing for some time. Some years a go I came across a blog, written by a woman, detailing at great length her fantasies of wearing a full-body latex burqa whilst being properly submissive to her husband. It was very well-written; I read several pages before I twigged it was fantasy.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 15, 2016 at 9:01 pm -
I twigged it was fantasy.
50 Sheikhs Of Grey ?
- Mrs Grimble
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 4:01 pm -
Eh?!?
I was puzzled by what might constitute an “attempt at groping” and had an image of a man with un-naturally short arms, flailing pathetically. It’s hardly a difficult crime to commit so couldn’t understand why it hadn’t resulted in an actual grope (i.e. a crime).
I dispute totally that 99% of creeps are males but even if they were, they would form a tiny percentage of the male population as a whole.- Ljh
July 15, 2016 at 8:06 pm -
There are sufficient sexually intimidating males out there to make life hazardous and unpleasant for young women even if they constitute a small percentage of maledom. As a man you also fail to understand that superior male strength and speed makes escape harder should they get too close.
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 8:44 pm -
How about just ‘intimidating males’, Ljh (and forget the sexual aspect)? I’ve had experience of that, and I’ve been scared to walk the streets because of what I’ve experienced (experiences far more likely to befall a male than female, such as pointless violence & aggression).
As a man – and despite my amazing bear-like strength coupled with the speed of a lynx – I am, as you imply, too bloody moronic to understand that ‘escape’ will be harder for a damsel in distress. If only I’d been aware of this good fortune while I was getting battered!
As a man I must also be genetically incapable of giving a damn about women in general – mother, sister, girlfriend: sod ’em all! What rot.
I’m still no closer to understanding what an ‘almost grope’ might consist of but you’ve moved from “extreme sexual innuendoes” to “a litany of violent sexual fantasies”, two quite different things. I’m off out now but I’ll try to restrain myself from pillaging & raping; as a man it won’t be easy, eh?!?
- Ljh
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Ho Hum
- Bandini
- Peter Raite
July 15, 2016 at 4:04 pm -
Such percentages only show up because “unwanted sexual attention in public places” and “unwanted sexual touching” are so vague and subjective, and usually come with “at ever in your lifetime” catch-all. Even my grizzled middle-aged male self could say “yes” to both of them.
Of course the elephant in the room is that – perhaps completely logically – attractive women are goign to be the recipients of such attention far more than those who aren’t. Mrs R, a somewhat hefty lady, is by her own admission not anything like a frequent target. Early one Sunday morning a few years back, after we’d both staggered out of a nightclub between King’s Cross and Caledonian Road, she got honked by a passing lorry driver, no doubt on account of the short leather skirt she was wearing. To this day she says she genuinely never felt so chuffed than she did then.
- Major Bonkers
July 15, 2016 at 4:11 pm -
Blimey! I know that part of the world very well. God knows what sort of reception she would have got stumbling out of ‘The Pleasure Garden’ sauna further up the Cally.
- Mrs Grimble
July 15, 2016 at 8:59 pm -
I lived in the lower end of the Caledonian Road as a teenager. I don’t know about the sauna, but the local newagent carried a surprising number of advertisments from ladies selling large chests, or giving French lessons.
It was certainly a unsalubrious area, but I never felt in any danger. Not even when I was chased halfway down Euston Road (in my school uniform!) by a very sprightly old gentleman waving a £5 note and screeching “Come home with me, I pay!”- Eric
July 16, 2016 at 12:02 pm -
“a £5 note”?. They were the days.
- Eric
- Mrs Grimble
- Major Bonkers
- Ljh
- Joe Public
July 15, 2016 at 1:55 pm -
In it’s report of the Poppy Smart case, the Grauniad highlights the fact it’s also an offence to take photographs without consent.
An irony is that the misandrist Grauniad failed to mention the method Poppy Smart used to report/identify the perpetrator(s). Anyone care to guess the method?
- Bandini
- Fat Steve
July 15, 2016 at 1:19 pm -
Ho! Ho Ho! Julia M …..Gosh the trouble with ivory towers is that one does miss out a bit on every day comedy (or should that be tradgedy?). I scurried away to remedy my ignorance (well read the Daily Mail article if that counts). I take your point entirely but pray in aid the instigator of this initiative Chief Constable Sue Knight might benefit from some increased breadth in her education and a measure of humility as to the importance of her personal understanding of what constitutes ‘hate’ …..as so often happens when people use words like that about others they say a great deal about themselves…..but yes you appear to have a very good point about Gauliter (spelling TBD) Knight.
The view I expressed was how I would act in the face of a Judges direction …..specifically one is not merely relieved of responsibility but one is compelled by the immediate exercise of the instant personal power of a senior member of the Judiciary to implement his direction.- Fat Steve
July 15, 2016 at 1:34 pm -
Ho! Ho! Ho!A further chuckle Julia M in reading the different take on things between the Mail and the Guardian ….Gosh I give up !!!! Time to see if there aren’t further floors above the present one I can occopy in this Ivory Tower of mine
- Fat Steve
July 15, 2016 at 2:02 pm -
It is perhaps worth commenting here on the immediacy and untouchability of the individual power of a senior member of the Judiciary. in practice or in theory. Whatever a senior Judge says or does is subject to review only by more senior members of the Judiciary. A Judge can be a well known loose cannon and survive for years …..when in practice i know of only one Judge whose behaviour was so egregious that he got the sack, Mr Justice Harman (who I had the misfortune to once come across once at a full trial) who was sacked so I recall for delay though his reputation for lack of balance and lack of patience apparently played no part in his sacking.
Judicial power is ‘state’ power at its sharpest and most immediate and the public have little understanding quite how raw it can be…….and its not always exercised as impersonally as theory suggests it should be
- Fat Steve
- Joe Public
July 15, 2016 at 2:01 pm -
“Chief Constable Sue Knight might benefit from some increased breadth in her education and a measure of humility as to the importance of her personal understanding of what constitutes ‘hate’ ”
Definition:
“A Hate Incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someones prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.Even if you don’t want the incident to be investigated, it is important that the police know about it, so that they can build up a picture of how many incidents are happening ….”
http://www.cps.gov.uk/northeast/victims_and_witnesses/hate_crime/
Hence the ease with which the post-Brexit hate-crimes spike was manufactured.
- Fat Steve
July 15, 2016 at 2:20 pm -
@Joe Public …genuine thanks for this definition …..I was unaware it was so totally subjective…..so subjective as to almost make the crime what the victim determines it to have been ……but but but also limited to race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.
Interestingly if a legal definition I can’t see action based on ‘simple’ gender difference (that being the ‘mens rea’ of a wolf whistle as I no doubt in my blissful ignorance imagine it to be) as adequate reason to constitute a hate crime.
A nuisance perhaps but a hate crime ?
- Fat Steve
- Fat Steve
- JuliaM
- Fat Steve
- JuliaM
- Loadsamates
July 15, 2016 at 1:06 pm -
Just to emphasise that beyond Anna’s arguments, anonymity is anyway not the panacea you might expect. I know about the case of an accused foster carer’s son who was for that reason granted anonymity when investigated. This meant that he was terrified that people would find out about the allegations and so was deprived support from his friends for months before he was NFAd. Indeed, careless police talk on two occasions undermined his legal privacy entitlement anyway. On balance, I think it should be up to the suspect to decide but the advantages of anonymity are not quite as clear cut as the Gambaccinis or Sir Cliffs might imagine.
- Anonymous Person in a Police State
July 15, 2016 at 1:17 pm -
What we really need is not anonymity for those accused of sex offences, but an open discussion as to whether we want the police to be in charge of our morality…
Same with politicians, both groups known for their incessant moral failures, so neither should be charged with the job of imposing their version of ‘morality’ on the general population.
My MP told me that he very nearly reported me to the police for a disparaging comment I made on his Facebook page about ‘pride’ marches.
While talking it over in his office, my Christian views were treated with considerable contempt and ridicule by both him and the person with him. Should I report him for religious ‘hate’ crime? This just has to be “any incident” which is “motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on a person’s religion or perceived religion”.
I don’t want to go down the road of grassing up people to the Stasi, even if they are morons who want to do it to me, because this is the sort of behaviour which is being encouraged, so that society fragments further and freedom of expression dies and the free exchange of ideas can be seen as a criminal act of defiance. The dangerous thing with this is that it doesn’t even matter whether a ‘crime’ has been committed, because the ‘harm’ is based on the perception of the ‘victim’ alone.
The police are becoming judge, jury and executioner (so must be putting in for a lot of overtime) and the politicians encourage them by introducing new ‘laws’, which we have to assume are deliberately made to be vague in order that anyone can be arrested for just about anything.
- windsock
July 15, 2016 at 1:49 pm -
On a (very!) peripherally related subject – this makes my blood boil:
As an adult male who has volunteered with young children, she must think my motives are VERY suspect.
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 2:02 pm -
Do you think Ben was left alone with the three kids, Windsock? I mean, following her logic it would have been ‘sensible’ to avoid the risk (perhaps by having her husband executed, therefore reducing that risk to nil!). Oh hang on, Ben wasn’t needed:
“A source close to Leadsom told The Times that she had a male nanny for five years and was not suggesting that men could not do the job well.”- windsock
July 15, 2016 at 2:11 pm -
I don’t think the woman has any logic behind her, Bandini. What gets my goat is that according her, those of us who are childless have less of a stake in the future – yet when those of us who are childless men try to educate children or support them because their birth families have been less than proficient at caring for them, and we feel we have a stake in the future by helping them, we are judged suspect.
I think the country has had a narrow escape. Or at least, people like me have.
- Bandini
July 15, 2016 at 4:40 pm -
“Theresa May is already under pressure to sack Andrea Leadsom after she suggested men should not become nannies because they might be paedophiles. Mrs Leadsom, who has only been in her post as Environment Secretary in the new cabinet since yesterday…”
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-may-under-pressure-to-sack-andrea-leadsom-over-stupid-paedophile-comments-a3297091.html- JohnM
July 16, 2016 at 1:56 am -
So she’ll probably promote her to “minister responsible for children” with a cabinet place, and ermine after five years.
Or maybe you didn’t notice that Boris De Big-mouth had been made foreign secretary after a string of comments that would have got lesser persons arrested for hate or race offences?
- JohnM
- Bandini
- windsock
- Bandini
- Jim
July 15, 2016 at 3:40 pm -
This is scary stuff. But why isn’t there anyone in the justice system analysing these women and their initial allegations? It’s one thing to campaign for justice and fairness for the accused. But is no one looking at why some women are doing this?
- Joe Public
July 15, 2016 at 6:44 pm -
“But is no one looking at why some women are doing this?”
Maybe because the potential investigators and/or their bosses themselves fear being accused, by the alleged victim or by any other person, of a ‘hate’ crime!
- Joe Public
- Matt
July 15, 2016 at 5:12 pm -
“But is no one looking at why some women are doing this?”
Because they are women.
- tdf
July 15, 2016 at 7:02 pm -
^”Because they are women.”
well, yes, or at least there is a certain type of woman who will be motivated to make false or grossly exaggerated allegations when she is encouraged to do so by the prevailing legal system & cultural mores.
Underlying it really, I guess, is the old-fashioned idea that women are delicate flowers who must be protected from rampaging beasts (i.e., men, all of whom are actual or potential sex rapists).
- Penseivat
July 15, 2016 at 10:19 pm -
My son in law is a qualified and registered child-minder (a nanny) with glowing testimonials from previous employers. He has just been told that his services are no longer required by the family he worked for, for over 2 years, following this stupid woman’s comments. He is now seeking legal advice regarding taking action against her. Perhaps this now means that men can’t be midwives, charge nurses, or doctors as they may be sexual deviants. Male teachers will be the next target, no doubt. It just shows that having an education does not make a person intelligent.
- cameron mcarthur
July 16, 2016 at 2:07 am -
quite good…this
- Alexander Baron
July 19, 2016 at 10:17 am -
This guy was interviewed by Victoria Derbyshire this morning. It makes interesting viewing:
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11831727.Alleged_rapist____looked_like_he_had_won_lottery___/
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