Parliament reviews Investigations into Child Sex Abuse.
Lord Lexden, who used to be Alistair Cooke, a fine author and researcher before acquiring his ermine robes, rose to speak in the House of Lords on Friday.
He paid homage to Carolyn Hoyle and her team who steered the voices of the ‘other’ victims of the VIP abuse ‘hunt’ – that of the falsely accused – through the quagmire of opposition to any deviance from #Ibelieveher. Her recent publication: ‘The Impact of Being Wrongly Accused of Abuse in Occupations of Trust: Victims’ Voices‘ had, he said, ‘usefully highlighted’ those voices in an ‘authoritative’ report.
He went on to bemoan the fate of Bishop Bell; he listed the good works Bell had been responsible for and described him as ‘a man who has a special claim to the most careful treatment if posterity should ever have cause to doubt his virtue’. I don’t doubt that for one moment, though I think that every man whose behaviour is doubted in posterity has the same claim to special treatment – he is not there to answer his critics. To speak for himself.
Before Bishop Bell, he had described:
The manner in which Field Marshal Lord Bramall was treated shocked us all, as did the distress inflicted on Lord Brittan during his final illness and the additional pain suffered by his much-loved wife after his death. The sight of a senior police officer standing outside Sir Edward Heath’s former home in Salisbury and exhorting those who had allegations to make to get in touch will not fade from the memory.
Yet there were four notable exceptions to this emotive plea for ‘special treatment’ for those accused when they could no longer defend themselves. Neither Lord Janner, Clement Freud, or Cyril Smith were worthy of mention. Jimmy Savile distinguished himself by being given a special appearance in the opening paragraph of this appeal for ‘innocence until proven guilty’ especially for the dead…
“the discovery of the foul Savile crimes.”
“Much police time has been and continues to be devoted to them” he claims of Savile’s ‘foul crimes’.
I challenge Lord Lexden to show me where any police time has been devoted to investigating Savile’s ‘foul crimes’.
The only police time that has been expended has been in writing endless reports showing that claims that Savile ‘could have been stopped’ were untrue because the police did not have sufficient evidence to charge him with anything. Not just ‘insufficient evidence’ to prosecute him; but ‘insufficient evidence’ to even charge him.
On the basis of what has happened to those Lord Lexden admires, the Bishop Bell, Lord Bramall, Lord Brittan, Ted Heath et al, he moves that the House should endorse a code of practice to ensure that this couldn’t happen to er, ‘other’ friends of his:
Many would feel that an explicit ban is needed on the deplorable media stunts in which the police have been involved and on sustained, irresponsible trawling for evidence.
It would have been a fine speech, full of compassion for the families and friends of those left to defend a departed ones reputation, were it not for his ignorant espousal of the lazy journalists meme:
‘Savile’s foul crimes’.
Savile, Smith, Janner, Freud; they are all entitled to the same respect for their ‘innocence until proven guilty’ – there isn’t a special brand of justice in this country reserved for the friends of Lord Lexden, or Max Hastings, or anyone else. There was no evidence to charge Savile with; there was no evidence to charge Gambaccini with; there was no evidence to charge Cliff Richard.
Justice isn’t a matter of who you like and who you think ‘looks dodgy’ – or is still alive and could sue you if you said otherwise.
Lord Dear (formerly Geoffrey Dear, Chief Constable of West Midlands) went on to speak next, on the subject of media coverage and police ‘trawling for evidence’:
He [Lord Bramall] was, in effect, put on a hook as bait for others to come forward and say, “Yes, me too”.
…as was Cliff Richard. Yet they were both alive and managed to mount a defence to the ludicrous claims against them. Lord Dear was also moved to complain about the Bishop Bell inquiry:
The public were assured that the process of inquiry had been thorough; it was not. The allegation was presented as something very solid indeed; it is not. The statement actively incited a public judgment of guilt while allowing the Church room for manoeuvre. I would contend that that, at the best, is disingenuous. Nothing about the actual process was exposed to public scrutiny. There was complete silence as to how the decisions were reached. The independent experts, as they were called by the Church of England, were then and remain anonymous.
…and that is different from the joint NSPCC/Operation Yewtree report how?
Lord Dear concluded by lurching back into the Savile meme:
‘we have lurched as a society from the extremities of the mishandling of the Savile case into the extremes identified in the current cases’.
Lord Carey spoke next. Formerly George Carey, Archbishop of Canterbury:
I too am very troubled by the ease with which complaints going back years can trash, tarnish and destroy reputation, careers and lives. […] We expect better in a land under the rule of law and in a democratic society where justice prevails. However, in the case of a dead person, the questions are much more difficult as the individual is no longer here to answer the accusations.
Before going on to speak in support of his chosen ‘dead person’ – Bishop Bell:
“So Bishop George Bell was judged a paedophile and a pervert”.
“by an anonymous, unpublished claim, upheld by a non-court which won’t explain its decision”.
A despicable situation to be sure. But would Lord Carey extend his sympathy to others judged ‘paedophile and pervert’ on the basis of anonymous, unpublished claims, upheld by a non-court which won’t explain its decision’….not a chance!
Onto Lord Cormack, formerly Patrick Cormack, like Lord Lexden, formerly an author, historian and researcher:
I was brought up […] to regard two propositions as being utterly necessary foundations for any civilised society. Any man or women is innocent until proven guilty, and it is better that a guilty man or woman goes free than an innocent one is punished, and we should all bear that in mind.
Lord Cormack at least side stepped the Savile trap by referring to the ’emotional panic that has followed the Savile case’. I congratulate him.
Lord Armstrong, a former civil servant who is credited with coining the phrase ‘economical with the truth’ spoke next:
Your Lordships will know that, in the absence of any close relatives of his, I have expressed publicly my view that Sir Edward Heath was not guilty of any criminal offences of child abuse, and that remains my view.
The police have interviewed, are interviewing, or have proposed to interview a great number of people. The operation has already cost £400,000 and is likely to run for at least another six—probably 12—months and cost more than £1 million. A number of retired policemen and other people from outside the force have been recruited to help conduct the investigation.
[…] But of course, in the case of a man who has been dead for over 10 years, that is almost a travesty of justice.
Baroness Butler-Sloss:
Ever since the shocking case of Jimmy Savile and others we have become accustomed to serious allegations of sexual abuse being made against well-known figures.
But now those fine Lords are faced with allegations against one of their own…’something must be done…’
I suggest that a distinction should be made between the management of allegations against a living person and those against one who is deceased.
Looking hopeful…
The issue that causes me considerable concern is where the balance of probabilities is applied to historic cases of child abuse in which the alleged perpetrator is dead.
But no, it seems we are back to Bishop Bell again – and only Bishop Bell and ‘our friends in the House’. For, there is an exception to her concern:
Jimmy Savile may have been an exception because the volume of evidence of many, many victims built up to a horrifying degree.
Yes, it seems that Savile manages to evade the horror that the noble Lords feel at trawling exercises, mass publicity and calls for victims to come forward; ‘anonymous, unpublished claims, upheld by a non-court which won’t explain its decision’ are all perfectly acceptable for some members of the public.
Lord Judge, the former Lord Chief Justice, commenced by clearing up one small point which appeared to baffle former speakers:
Perhaps I will begin by saying that the presumption of innocence survives death.
Hurrah!
Lord Judge went on to make a remarkable and emotive speech, detailing the situation of 30 or 40 years ago, when the evidence of children – and I do mean children, not middle aged adults recounting events they claimed happened 40 years ago, was positively warned against by Judges in the summation. We have moved on a long way from that point – and it is scarcely relevant to the rash of ‘Historical VIP abuse’ claims. Most of which involve people who claimed to be teenagers, near adults, not five year old chidlren.
It fell to Lord Bishop of Chelmsford, formerly Stephen Cottrell, the task of defending the church’s actions in respect of Bishop Bell to his friends in the House. These he explained, were a matter of deciding that the ‘survivor’ should not have to undergo more anguish in court by having to give her evidence again – something that appeared not to bother her when she gave media interviews. Interviews she had only given he said, because some of Bishop Bell’s friends and supporters had said ‘nasty things about her’. The lawyers had advised them that they would probably lose the case, and so it was more expedient to ‘settle’ now. ‘However’, he said, ‘the Church remains satisfied of the credibility of the allegation’.
Not that the Church has ever heard any evidence from Bishop Bell – he has been dead for 10 years…
Lord Paddick, previously Brian Paddick, former Metropolitan Assistant Commissioner, felt that when the ‘person accused has passed away and cannot defend themselves, particularly against a civil action that is decided on the balance of probabilities’ was an issue that needed to be addressed.
He also made a very sensible suggestion; that ALL victims of childhood sexual abuse come forward now – not necessarily with a view to prosecution, but to identify those who claim to have been abused on a national database. That way, the police could identify those people against whom multiple allegations have been made, and carry out an investigation ‘rather than conducting the sort of fishing expedition with dynamite that has been referred to and happens now’. Whether it would work or not is another matter, since so many victims claim to have forgotten all about ‘it’ until a TV obituary reminded them…
Lord Paddick was also the first speaker to reference the motion before the House – That this House takes note of the case for statutory guidelines relating to the investigation of cases of historical child sex abuse. – everybody else seemed to think it was just an opportunity to defend their friends.
‘Guidelines are given to the police and the Crown Prosecution Service about these sorts of cases and those guidelines clearly need to change.’
Lord Tunnicliffe, formerly Denis Tunnicliffe, Pilot and Railwayman, addressed the issue of where the current ‘guidelines relating to investigation’ emanate from. It is the College of Policing. The College of Policing, as detailed in a previous blog here, decided not two months ago, that there was no need to change the guidelines…
…it is therefore not necessary to make a change to existing standards and guidance.
Though Lord Tunnicliffe chose not to repeat that portion of their decision, merely the fact that: ‘It is vital that the Government accept the need of the police for additional funding to investigate effectively the sudden and extreme increase in the number of historic child abuse cases recorded by the police.‘
He went on to quote the words of Simon Bailey, Chief Constable of Norfolk:
“The average cost of each investigation is £19,000, so the police force is now spending a billion pounds a year on cases. If it continues at this rate we will be investigating 200,000 cases at a cost of £3 billion by 2020”.
Lord Keen of Elie answered the motion on behalf of the Government. Better known as Richard Keen, QC. He successfully defended the Libyan Fhimah at the Pan Am 103 trial; he represented the family of Diana’s chauffeur, Henri Paul; he represented Rangers football club in their interminable court cases; he is currently representing Andy Coulson…and is the Advocate-General for Scotland – an expert on Scottish law.
Quite obviously the best person to tackle the Government’s response to the disgraceful manner in which Historical Child Abuse claims have been handled recently. Quite. Obviously.
He stated:
The current guidelines are indeed drawn up by the College of Policing.
The college is independent from government.
The college has the power to place this practice guidance on a statutory footing, should it choose to do so.
The Government have no plans to extend or issue statutory guidance.
So-o-o-o….Having just been told that the government had no power to force the College of Policing to change its methods, Lord Lexden, who cannot have been listening, wound up the debate by saying that the motion to introduce ‘statutory guidelines for the investigation of Historical Child Abuse’ was carried – and could he please have a ‘fundamental review’ of Bishop Bell’s case please…’cos he’s a friend of his.
Even when it involves one of their beloved friends, these decrepit and lethargic geriatrics don’t get the point that they are supposed to be representing all of us.
I posed the question two months ago as to whether ‘Hogan-Howe was a Cult Leader or Not in Control of his Force’. Neither Hogan-Howe nor the House of Lords, it would seem.
- Joe Public
July 2, 2016 at 4:04 pm -
Thanks for the detailed update, Ms Raccoon.
- Jonathan King
July 2, 2016 at 5:34 pm -
You’re obviously right back on form, firing on all cylinders and hitting the nail on the head. Run out of cliches now!
- The Blockd Dwarf
July 2, 2016 at 6:35 pm -
Run out of cliches now!
I find that very hard to believe, Mr.’made more money out of stringing together clichés to music than I have had hot dinners’.
- Jonathan King
July 6, 2016 at 7:48 am -
You’ve lost your E, Dwarf!
- The BlockEd Dwarf
July 6, 2016 at 8:04 am -
Story of my life Mr.King, story of my life.
- The BlockEd Dwarf
- Jonathan King
- The Blockd Dwarf
- JS
July 2, 2016 at 6:59 pm -
“so many victims claim to have forgotten all about ‘it’ until a TV obituary reminded them”
I suspect that Freud and later the “Sybil” case generated, then popularised, the idea that serious abuse could be effectively erased from the conscious memory for decades. Given that Freud disciples even admit that he got a hell of a lot wrong and Sybil has been comprehensively debunked, is there any seriously confirmed case at all?
And I don’t mean the “I remember now, he pecked me on the cheek once and I’m now reinterpreting that as serious sexual abuse” idea. I also don’t mean “recovered memory” nonsense with no corroboration, I mean actual abuse which so traumatized a person (so they must have realized at the time that it was significant) that they forgot it when they “should” have remembered it.
It’s a serious question – does the phenomenon actually exist outside of popular fiction and dodgy psychiatry?
Generally people who have undoubtedly suffered horrible trauma, sexual or otherwise, seem unable to forget (quite the reverse) and in many cases no doubt wish they could.- Mr Pooter
July 2, 2016 at 9:32 pm -
“….does the phenomenon actually exist….?”
I am convinced that my late wife and her sister were sexually abused by their father when they were young children and locked the memory away in their subconscious minds as they grew up; the sister was told as much by a (dodgy?) psychiatrist whom she consulted in middle age about her own neurotic behaviour. In my opinion both women were adversely affected by their neuroses, exhibited in different ways, which undoubtedly spoiled their quality of life to some extent. When we discussed this question long ago, my wife could not remember having been abused by her father as a young child, but she did recall that when she was about fifteen he once kissed her on the lips and stuffed his tongue into her mouth.
So yes, from my limited experience I do think the phenomenon exists.
- Bandini
July 3, 2016 at 11:19 am -
Could it not also be the case that the event which your wife DID remember had a profound effect upon her, Mr Pooter? I mean, there’s really no way back to the ‘before’ for the girl who has just found herself the target of a sexualised kiss from her own father – it changes the whole relationship from here on in & probably causes previous memories to be seen differently too. But I’m very wary indeed of the idea of ‘buried memories’.
One of the principle advocates for ‘survivors’ of child abuse, Liz Davies, shocked me a couple of years ago by publically seeking more information (and victims) which could help her prove the link between abuse in Islington & Jersey: a former resident of a children’s home in the former had found a postcard he had sent to his father from the latter. The supposed child-trafficking network between the two places (which I never could quite understand the logic of) blossomed from this tiny seed, and off they went on a trawl…
What caused me unease was the fact that the boy-with-a-postcard (now a man) had no actual memory of being abused:
““I do believe I was interfered with,” Richard told the Tribune. “I can’t say that I remember it. But I displayed behaviour afterwards that is consistent with being abused…””
Well, maybe. But the depression and feelings of not having filled one’s potential in life are hardly exclusive to those who have been abused as children, and I see a great danger in looking back into the past for that one event which MAY explain ‘everything’. In this case I was gobsmacked by the overlooking of one possible contributing factor to the man’s troubles: that he had been in the care of the local authority as a child & not living with his family (for whatever reason). I couldn’t understand why this less-than-ideal start to life – a known fact – might not have played a greater role in his development than the vague fuzzy feeling that ‘something may have happened’. Given the company kept by those helping him, I imagine he ‘remembers’ a whole lot more now than when this article was published:
http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2014/oct/postcards-link-islington-care-home-children-scene-notorious-jersey-sex-abuse- AdrianS
July 3, 2016 at 1:15 pm -
Certainly I can remember significant events from the 60s so it would surprise me if people couldn’t remember if they were sexually abused or not. I can remember fishing trips, catching tench or painfully being caned at school ( ouch!). I can remember the news flash when Kennedy was shot. I remember the first moon landing and going out into the garden and looking up at the moon and being proud a human was there. Some people do have mental health issues and my worry would be that others try and recreate false abuse memories to try and explain problems.
- A Potted Plant
July 3, 2016 at 3:44 pm -
@ Bandini – I was shocked by the “Richard’s postcard” story, because an American psychiatrist who had championed and specialized in the treatment of alleged Multiple Personality Disorder patients claiming childhood Ritual Abuse, specifically cited faked postcards as one of the deceptions he had discovered his problematic patients using. But I felt let down by Liz Davies recent participation in, and endorsement of, Sarah Nelson’s latest tome – which is a call to “bring back” Ritual Abuse, from cover to cover. Both of these ladies continue to advocate mass “diagnosis” of sexual abuse in toddlers, using alleged “signs & symptoms”, as a “preventive” measure – such as the highly problematic anal wink test. They seem not at all bothered by the possibility that such diagnostics might not have a success rate greater than random chance – if they diagnosed 100 3-5 year olds as sexually abused, their statistics would say they could be correct 40% of the time with girls and 25% of the time with boys, by sheer chance! Apparently, they would be happy with that, although they’d have taken ALL of the children into care regardless.
As for suppressed memories…a popular theory which remains trendy has the conscious self collapsing under the stress of abuse, and secondary “selves” taking over to experience the abuse and retain memory of that event. The secondary selves and their memories might not be accessible by the conscious self until much later in life. There are a number of reasons why such a scenario cannot be true, not least of which being that there is only one “track” for biographical memory. If awareness of self collapsed due to stress, there would be no sense of “me” whatsoever, hence no biographical memory record whatsoever would be possible. There would be no memory to recover, later in life.
But, simple suppression – consciously avoiding thinking about something, because contemplation causes distress – is certainly possible.- Owen
July 3, 2016 at 11:00 pm -
A Potted Plant, do you have any grounds for suggesting that “Richard”‘s postcards are not genuine? You say you’re shocked by them, which would be a bit odd if you were simply speculating they weren’t the real thing. You seem to imply that you’ve examined the cards. In that case what is it that triggered your suspicions? As I understand it, they were returned to Richard by his father, so do you know where the faking might have come in? Liz Davies seems confident there’s nothing wrong with them and she’s looked at them closely. Why would you suggest I should listen to your opinion rather than hers?
- A Potted Plant
July 4, 2016 at 1:00 am -
@Owen – No statements by me, as to the validity of Richard’s postcard story. I was shocked by the similarity of circumstance – between Richard’s postcard discovery playing a key role in belief that he might have experienced victimization by some conspiracy that he had no memory of, and the pyschiatrist specifying that faked postcards by patients had been asserted to provide evidence of such in their own lives.
Please believe whatever you wish, about Richard’s postcard. Matters not to me.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 10:56 am -
OK, A Potted Plant, it sounds then as if you were simply putting what you thought were 2 and 2 together without any specific knowledge of the matter. Liz Davies’s opinion after checking out the evidence for herself seems substantial enough to be credible. Thanks anyway.
- A Potted Plant
July 4, 2016 at 11:55 am -
@Owen – what connects Richard’s account and that of the American psychiatrist specializing in treatment of MPDs claiming childhood ritual abuse, IS Liz Davies’ own understated interest in the subject of ritual abuse.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 9:13 pm -
A Potted Plant, precisely what is the connection between “Richard”‘s account and MPD associated with claims of childhood ritual abuse? And how is any interest of Liz Davies’s in the subject of ritual abuse any more relevant than, say, your own or mine? Do you know something of substance or are you simply constructing a hypothesis on the basis of an attempt at interpretation?
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 9:31 pm -
While you’re waiting for APP to reply (if he can be bothered) why not have a sroll through Chapter 7 of the following:
https://books.google.es/books?id=NJ8XtDSajhAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Attachment,+Trauma+and+Multiplicity:+Working+with+Dissociative+Identity+Disorder&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_opCq0NrNAhVCMhoKHZP0AskQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=Attachment%2C%20Trauma%20and%20Multiplicity%3A%20Working%20with%20Dissociative%20Identity%20Disorder&f=false
It’s a real, er, eye opener. The bit when a small child ‘alter’ leaps out of the wheelchair and scuttles up the stairs is, er, interesting.
- Bandini
- Owen
- A Potted Plant
- Owen
- A Potted Plant
- Owen
- Owen
July 3, 2016 at 8:07 pm -
Bandini, I’m rather interested by this notion that you as an armchair psychologist who has never met “Richard” might understand the nature of his experiences rather better than Liz Davies who has met him and in addition has enough familiarity with the history and context to understand the relationship between Islington and Jersey. If you need a name to start your research with, look up Nick Rabet.
- Bandini
July 3, 2016 at 10:44 pm -
What experiences, Owen? What ‘context’? Richard doesn´t recall being abused – he doesn´t even remember visiting Jersey. After his mother died he spent time in care as his alcoholic father couldn´t cope. He was 5 years old…
Liz Davies: “The Jersey postcards are massively significant. They have stamps and postmarks proving they are legitimate… …However, he struggles to remember the trips to Jersey. This is common in cases of severe trauma.”
Aye, and it’s also common in cases of NO trauma! I don’t remember where I went on holiday at such a young age but here’s Davies again:
“Richard’s postcards are the only proof we have of children sent from Islington to Jersey. One postcard is of Gorey castle, which is next to Haut de la Garenne.”
Oh God! It’s a tiny pin-speck island and she’s drawing inferences from the distance between a bloody photogenic castle on a postcard & HDLG! What were you saying about lazy memes? Here’s the believer again:
“They will feed us misinformation, divert our attention and play games with us to protect their activities. They seep into our academic and political worlds and make theories and policies to persuade us that children and survivors of child abuse invent stories and those professionals whistleblowing are over zealous, hysterical and obsessional.”
She was sharing a platform with Valerie Sinason at the time, the same mindbender responsible for this Tale From The Crypt (At Stoke Mandeville Hospital):
“She [the ‘victim’ of Savile & his Satanic cohorts] recognised him because of his distinctive voice and the fact that his blond hair was protruding from the side of the mask. He was not the leader but he was seen as important because of his fame. She was molested, raped and beaten and heard words that sounded like ‘Ave Satanas’, a Latinised version of ‘Hail Satan’, being chanted…”
Would you want someone with NO recollection of abuse to be ‘therapised’ by these lunatics? They’ve lost touch with the real world. I will, therefore, have to reject your invitation to waste the next few hours of my life chasing down a fantasy, but at least I bothered to check what mad Lizzie had to say about it:
“One manager of an Islington home, Nick Rabet, was never properly investigated by Islington and went on to abuse 300 children in Thailand. He committed suicide but came from Jersey originally. I don’t know yet if there are links between the investigations [Jersey & Islington].”
Let me know when she turns something up, eh?
- Bandini
July 3, 2016 at 11:18 pm -
Hang on a sec, Owen. Curiosity got the better of me…
Richard went a searching for his files in 2000. In 2014 he had no memory of being abused but by 2016 things had changed:
“For Richard, these memories between the ages of five and seven were always there. But it was only four years ago when he realised what they meant.”
“Richard is now one of the driving forces behind a new website, the Islington Survivors Network. It aims to support the victims of physical, sexual and emotional abuse in Islington care homes – and seek out witnesses. To launch it, he joined forces with Dr Liz Davies…”
Sorry Owen, but I’ve spent enough time on this already and, quite honestly, cannot be bothered with this:
“It was only in 2012, at the same time as the Jimmy Savile revelations, when Richard, who still lives in the borough, processed the memories…”
- Owen
July 3, 2016 at 11:38 pm -
Forensic psychiatry another of the arrows to your bow, Bandini? Or just more of the snide banter? You seem not to have grasped the point of the postcards – or would I be mistaking disingenuousness for ignorance?
The nub of the issue is that Islington social workers including the paedophile Rabet, deputy manager at the notorious home at 114 Grosvenor Avenue, took chldren from Islington residential care homes on trips to the Channel Islands without authorisation and apparently without record. The postcards sent by “Richard” to his father are concrete confirmation that such unauthorised trips were made.
But then you know that, don’t you? You’re always keen and quick to impress on me how expert you are at finding information on the internet. So your ignorance or disregard of the allegations against Rabet (and friends) in Islington, at Cross-in-Hand, in the Channel Isles and at Pattaya, the complaints about him by Liz Davies and others that were ignored by Islington management and the disappearance of records and other evidence leaves me wondering why once again you take such relish in confusing the issue.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 12:28 am -
“The postcards sent by “Richard” to his father are concrete confirmation that such unauthorised trips were made.”
Eh? How the hell do you know they were unauthorised? You’ve leapt to the conclusion that the absence of a scrap of paper from the mid 1970s is ‘concrete’ proof that it was unauthorised! So unauthorised that the small child was (presumably) helped to write to his own father from the ‘secret’ location…
Besides, the whole thrust of Davies’ theory is surely that ALL of Islington’s homes had been infiltrated by abusers at all levels, and if this were the case I’m not sure why one pervert wouldn’t just have authorised the activities of another.Going ’round in circles, it’s pointless discussing anything with you as you’re of the same mindset as Davies. More of her pearls:
“This woman was a member of a cult. She had been involved since childhood and she spoke of children abducted, bought, sold and murdered. She named many adults involved as well as the scenes of crime including a caravan site where Islington foster carers and childminders took children.”
Sounds like a case for Beatrix Campbell & Her Magic Torch. And Jersey?
“The police have spoken about finding the remains of at least 5 children age between 4 and 11 years. There have been over 100 children’s bones found as well as 65 children’s teeth with roots said to have come out after death. Some of the bones had been cut indicating murder. The police are looking at the period of the 60’s and 70’s particularly. The bones had been burnt and attempts made to hide the remains. 4 punishment rooms were found and a concrete blood stained bath with shackles on the wall. The police also found two pits with lime in them known to be used to speed decomposition.”
Oh lordy. Take it to the Icke-forums, Owen. I’m not interested, and neither am I ‘keen’ on impressing you. What a nerve! You’re on the nutterbus with the rest of ’em.
https://lizdavies.net/academia/publications/jersey-child-abuse-investigation/
P.S. Richard now remembers the abuse he didn’t remember until Savile came along & names Rabet as one of his abusers. Like a big jigsaw puzzle just waiting to be assembled…
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 12:45 am -
^ It is clear that no bodies were found at HDLG, and neither is there any specific evidence of unsolved cases of children going missing from HDLG, as far as I’m aware.
But it is also the case that HDLG record-keeping was poor. I still haven’t found anyone who can explain to me why lime was being used by a childrens ‘care’ home.
- Major Bonkers
July 4, 2016 at 12:58 pm -
I don’t know, but I venture to suggest, that it was a building of granite blocks held together with lime mortar.
- Major Bonkers
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 9:44 am -
Bandini, whether you like it or not, you’ve impressed me on a number of occasions in the past with your astuteness. I’m less impressed by your scrupulousness. You seem keen to create a rather obvious caricature of Liz Davies. You’ve tried the Zac Goldsmith gambit of blurring the distinction between sharing a platform and solidarity. Now you’re quoting her describing what other people have said and implying that you’re quoting her own words (her “pearls”, as you refer to them). You seem to be trying, rather clumsily it has to be said, to set up Liz Davies as some sort of an Aunt Sally figure. Perhaps you’re right, there does seem to be some sort of a jigsaw puzzle out there waiting to be assembled.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 10:28 am -
It´s never been my intention to misrepresent her beliefs, Owen. You´ll be aware that comments containing more than one link here are placed in quarantine ´til they can be scrutinised, leaving less bird watching time for the landlady; I try to avoid adding to her workload. Here Davies is in her own words:
“For those who do not know me, I was a social worker when I exposed the Islington child abuse scandal in 1992. I bore witness to many crimes against children, there were murders, abductions and sexual assaults some in the context of cults and ritual abuse. Children were being trafficked across the country and to Jersey.”
http://whiteflowerscampaign.org/2015/04/29/dr-liz-davies-whistleblower-islington-social-services/
I suggest she shared something more than a platform with Sinason.
Anyway Owen, whether YOU like it or not, you’ve somewhat proved the point I was originally trying to make in my reply to Mr Pooter (regarding ‘repressed’ memories & ‘dodgy’ psychiatrists):
“Given the company kept by those helping him, I imagine he ‘remembers’ a whole lot more now than when this article was published”
Thanks to your prodding I now know that this did indeed come to pass (although it was mere conjecture when I scribbled it). So here we have a well-documented case of a person ‘recovering’ their memories over a period of time with the assistance of others. The unease I felt seems to me to have been justified.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 11:26 am -
Bandini, you still don’t actually know anything, you’re still conjecturing.
- Owen
- A Potted Plant
July 4, 2016 at 11:40 am -
@Owen – in “Protecting Children – A Critical Contribution to Policy and Practice Development” by Liz Davies, which is essentially a summary of her career, there are these oblique references to Davies having investigated and documented RITUAL ABUSE in Islington, and having submitted evidence of RITUAL ABUSE and presumed child sacrifice to police investiging the murder of young boys in the 1980’s. Yet, in her recent (the last 5-6 years) public statements about her Islington whistle-blowing, she never uses that phrase. Also, she drops Michael Hames name a few times in this document as Eileen Faiurweather repeatedly does in her articles – yet I could find no mention of either lady in Hames’ biographical accounts of his work for Scotland yard, not by name nor by inference.
I’d love to have you explain these apparent anomalies…
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 9:28 pm -
A Potted Plant, I’m not sure why these “anomalies” as you describe them are necessarily significant and I’m not sure that it would be appropriate for me as someone who has no previous knowledge of them to try and explain them. Since you’re interested and particularly since you’re familiar with his writings, perhaps you could try and contact Michael Hames yourself and ask him why Liz Davies and Eileen Fairweather aren’t mentioned by him. It would be helpful if you’d pass on the result of your inquiries.
As far as the references to Liz Davies’s “Protecting Children” is concerned, again you’ve read it while unfortunately I haven’t, so here likewise it would make sense for you to ask the author herself about her experience of ritual abuse and the context of her contacts with the police on the matter. Thanks for raising the subject, which I presume has something to do with our discussions of your speculations concerning “Richard”‘s trip to Jersey, am I correct?
- Owen
- Bandini
- tdf
- Bandini
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 12:41 am -
Just to point out, Gorey Castle is one of the main tourist attractions in Jersey. It would be unsurprising if it features in postcards bought and/or sent from the island. In fact, it would be surprising if it didn’t. Much as Buckingham Palace and Big Ben will often feature in London postcards, etc. Gorey Castle is relatively close to HDLG, but I’m not prepared to put too much credence in the postcard featuring Gorey Castle – in itself.
- Eric
July 4, 2016 at 5:19 am -
I have my own ‘repressed memory” and only discovered it when talking to my late mother. I fully believed when very young I had lived in a certain town up north and could relate various incidents that happened there. But talking to her she reminded me that I was born after she & the family had left that town and never returned. Its seems that after long talks with my brother who was 2 years older than me and had lived there- I had morphed some of his memories into mine. I think it’s far more common than we think especially with children who have inventive minds and often cannot tell reality from fantasy. Hence the propensity to blame all life’s failures on distant memories than may not even be yours when people get to a certain age and begin to look for reasons for failure. Aided now by a machinery that confirms & rewards those false memories.
I also sat in on a friend’s interviews for a book with an elderly Jewish couple I introduced him to, who had survived and met in a Concentration Camp and eventually married. After a dozen interviews over months the old couple’s relationship fell apart – they had never discussed their experiences- as their memories of key events did not match and this caused a real rift between them which never healed.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 12:59 pm -
That’s such a sad tale, Eric, the old couple. I’ve noticed my own memory letting me down a bit recently and it scares the life out of me. I also had/have a false memory which may be dull but I’ll relate it anyway:
Many years ago I was sharing a flat in London with a friend which came to be the weekend drop-in centre for a few people (mainly ‘go hard or go home’ Australians! Aaargghhh!!!). We would sometimes return to the flat to carry on afterwards – if we ever made it out of the door in the first place, that is. The girlfriend of a friend-of-my-flatmate took a shine to me, and out of sheer boredom we had a drunken fumble on a couple of occasions, amongst the empty bottles of Claymore ‘scotch’ (aaaarrrrggghhhh!!!)…
The morning after one of those nights I was awoken by a thunderous banging on the door beneath my window (first-floor flat) and the angry shouting of the girl’s boyfriend directed towards my flatmate who must have stuck his head out of HIS window to see what was going on. What was going on was that the boyfriend – a bear of a bloke – was after me!
My bedroom had a cupboard which passed for a well-sized wardrobe, in the corner of which leant a six-foot long fencepost. (No idea why – it was there when I moved in, was there when I moved out, and is probably still there now!). I cowered in there, on the floor, clutching the massive wooden post in the hope that it would somehow protect me from the blows that would soon be raining down on me.
The angry boyfriend was let in by my flatmate, climbed the stairs, more shouting & then hammering at my bedroom door until he was persuaded that I was not at home. He went on his way…This was as close as I ever came to the ‘bloke grabs his trousers and climbs down the drainpipe’ scenario, I’m afraid.
A decade or so later when I was living elsewhere, working with an Italian and both of us testing the water to see whether or not we would become friends, this very tame ‘escapade’ was about all I could come up with to match his exotic adventures. Very shortly afterwards I was visited by my oldest friend & his wife, interested as to how my ‘new start’ was turning out. For some reason I mentioned the Italian and how we had exchanged stories, and they fell about laughing – the ‘angry Australian boyfriend’ with the smell of the blood of an Englishman in his nostrils had actually been my oldest friend… it had all been a prank instigated by him & played along with by my flatmate. I felt like a fool.The real shock was still to come though, as it was explained to me (with incredulity) that I had been aware of the prank from the moment it concluded, and that THAT occurred mere minutes after it had begun. For whatever reason – a hangover no doubt contributing – I had (and still have) no recollection of the joke being revealed. (Subsequent checking with the former flatmate confirmed that they had owned up to it at the time, and even as I type this I see more holes in the tale-I-believed-to-be-true that ought to have alerted me.)
It’s a nothing-story, really, but it totally knocked me for six. Barely a day has gone by when I haven’t obsessively revisited this, trying to work out how I could have ‘lost’ the factual resolution & replaced it with a fiction (and at what point might this have happened?). For years I would have sworn on my life that the story I related to the Italian was true, and the strange thing is that a part of me still feels that it IS… one day I’ll be sat in a care-home, boring the old-timer next to me with this Robin Askwithesque ‘adventure’, once again believing it.
I’ve never quite forgiven my old pal, either, and not just because I felt duty-bound to confess all to the Italian. I wish he’d left me with the fantasy rather than stick an egg-whisk into my brain. Bah!
- Bandini
- Bandini
- Bandini
- AdrianS
- Mrs Grimble
July 3, 2016 at 9:35 pm -
One of my husband’s female relatives was serially abused in childhood by her father, along with her two sisters; additionally, all three girls were pimped out to their father’s friends. The abuse certainly happened – he was tried and jailed for it. I never met the woman but I heard from others that not only had she led a very unhappy life as a result of the abuse but had also never forgotten it.
As I said, this was serial abuse over two or three years, not a one-off. So maybe that made it impossible to forget.
- Bandini
- Sean Coleman
July 3, 2016 at 1:18 pm -
I would be very sceptical of suppressed memory although emotions can be buried. Is there any mention of them before Freud’s time? Hitchens (again) questions the whole idea of addiction which he argues is conveyed in films like The French Connection. I suspect suppressed memory is the same. I do believe in lies and deceit though, on an epic scale.
- Mr Pooter
- Mudplugger
July 2, 2016 at 8:19 pm -
My only quibble would be the phrase that the Lords are “supposed to be representing us all”.
‘Representing’ is the job of the Commons, the Upper House is a revising chamber whose role is to check and challenge the proposals of the Commons, using the wide range of accumulated skills and wisdom of its many appointees (and its few remaining hereditaries), rather than having any accountability to a fickle electorate on a 5-year cycle. Well, that’s the theory, anyway.
Their Lordships conduct in this matter may raise questions on the validity and application of that wide range of accumulated skills and wisdom. - Bandini
July 2, 2016 at 11:44 pm -
“Not that the Church has ever heard any evidence from Bishop Bell – he has been dead for 10 years…”
A bit longer than that – he died in 1958! You’d have been closer saying ‘for 100 years’! - JuliaM
July 3, 2016 at 5:45 am -
/applause
- Duncan
July 3, 2016 at 10:05 am -
I’m a ‘listener’ and simply admire your journalism which, to my mind, is of the highest order. Ramble on please.
- Bandini
July 3, 2016 at 11:43 am -
Peter Hitchens has been one of Bell’s principle defenders (and defender of the principle of innocent until proven guilty).
His argument in Bell’s case is based in large part on the fact that only a single accuser came forward (several decades after the man had died), and when challenged suggested that he would not have fought for Bell’s reputation otherwise…That was before the madness surrounding Cliff Richard’s accusers came to light, but now he must know what one risible claim can lead to: many, many others. His argument falls flat if a living man, generally believed to be decent (and a Christian too, which ought to interest Hitchens…) can entice several nutters to come forward, aided and abetted by the same woeful ‘investigator’ behind the Savile-scam, he really ought to ask himself where his principles lie.
- Sean Coleman
July 3, 2016 at 1:11 pm -
I have been arguing on and off with Hitchens about this. He had stated on a number of occasions that the accuser should be treated with courtesy and sympathy while I thought that, on balance, she should not seeing as witch hunts are observable, documented (Webster et al) phenomena. Significantly, I think, he never argued back, and he isn’t slow to do this. He spoke out (daytime TV?) in defence of Freud against an assertion that his guilt is clear, saying that his widow admitted it. I wonder about her age and health and whether she really did say it. The accuser’s ‘diary’ is a later reconstruction (this is acknowledged however) and contains phrases like ‘train station’ that would have only been used in America at the time. One must ask oneself what would become of PH if he were to come out of the closet on JS.
- Eric
July 4, 2016 at 5:28 am -
I read the widow’s response and I think it was so carefully worded that it did not actually accept the claims about her late husband , rather she accepted claims the claimants were hurt and needed sympathy. Perhaps it was crafted by her expert PR grandson.
- Mrs Grimble
July 4, 2016 at 11:26 am -
This is what she said: “I was married to Clement for 58 years and loved him dearly. I am shocked, deeply saddened and profoundly sorry for what has happened to these women. I sincerely hope they will now have some peace.”
A carefully drafted acknowledgement of their suffering with no admission that her husband was responsible. Exactly as Eric says.- Sean Coleman
July 4, 2016 at 5:58 pm -
Thanks for the clarification. Rereading my somewhat garbled post (written on a tablet) I’d just like to make clear that it was the woman (whose name I didn’t get) on the programme who said that Mrs Freud had admitted her husband’s guilt while Hitchens spoke up for the man’s presumed innocence.
- Sean Coleman
- Mrs Grimble
- Eric
- Sean Coleman
- Pat
July 3, 2016 at 12:03 pm -
” since so many victims claim to have forgotten all about ‘it’ until a TV obituary reminded them…”
Does this indicate that perhaps the damage actually done to the victims is less than we have been led to believe?
- Bandini
July 3, 2016 at 12:05 pm -
Roll up, roll up!
It’s the turn of Chris Evans, according to the Mail:
“The television presenter, 50, will be quizzed by officers from London’s Metropolitan Police in the next few days over the historical sex assault claims, The Sun reports.”What sayeth the Sun?
“TOP Gear presenter Chris Evans is to become the most high-profile BBC star to be quizzed by police over historical sex assault allegations.
Met officers will speak to the multi-millionaire BBC star, 50, in the coming days after a complaint from a former work colleague, website Heat Street report.”That’d be Louise Mensch’s new Murdoch venture. What do THEY say?
“BBC broadcaster Chris Evans is due to be questioned by police after they received an allegation about a sexual offence, Heat Street can exclusively reveal.”Bloody BBC again! And who writes this crap? Miles Goslett. The Savile shit-stirrer. The circle is complete! Hurrah!!!
- Eric
July 4, 2016 at 5:30 am -
The Sun? an article big on sensation but how much is real?. One fact : The Sun went very very light on the Clement Fraud claims and no inferences should be drawn by the reality that Freud’s grandchildren are also Rupert Murdoch’s.
- Eric
- A Potted Plant
July 3, 2016 at 5:00 pm -
I recently explored the often touted idea, that public skepticism about the validity of CSA allegations supposedly fuelled by press backlash against the historic Ritual Abuse case failures in the UK, prevented children and their caregivers coming forward to report the sexual abuse of children.
The accessible statistics aren’t always organized in a helpful way – the distinction between police investigations of sex crimes against adults, youths, or pre-teens isn’t always made clear in them. Nevertheless, I can assert with confidence that during the period when public skepticism , (aka “backlash”) was alleged to be highest, there continued to be many THOUSANDS of police investigations into sex crimes against minors in the UK. More than 10,000 per year, actually. There are ups and downs of as much as 15-20% during some periods, but beyond doubt many thousands of investigations were carried out, into sex crimes against persons WHO WERE CHILDREN AT THE TIME THE COMPLAINT WAS MADE. It just isn’t true, that public skepticism prevented CHILDREN or children’s caregivers from making complaints. But as for allegations by adults, that they had been abused as children…
- Eric
July 4, 2016 at 5:34 am -
Two Australian states have now had a statute of limitations on abuse claims – for state compensation (but not the assaults themselves). Historic accusations oddly have dropped dramatically in that time just as they did in Germany under the same laws.
- Eric
- tdf
July 3, 2016 at 6:44 pm -
Mandatory reporting would likely lead to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of complaints per year and in my view, would show a continous upward trend rather than the fluctuations up or down of 15-20% that A Potted Plant describes above.
In my judgement if mandatory reporting for CSA was introduced, the trend would likely mirror the trajectory of Suspicious Transaction Reports in the banking industry – the numbers reported per annums grows every year almost without exception.
The problem with mandatory reporting is that it would introduce a ‘if in any doubt at all – report’ culture – as with STR’s in finance – bankers suffer no consequences from making a reporting a potentially suspicious transaction that turns out to be innocent, but could go potentially go to prison for failing to report a transaction that turned out to be suspicious, the downside risk is all with the non-reporting.
On balance I agree with former UK Childrens’ Minister Tim Loughton who is sceptical of the idea of mandatory reporting.
- A Potted Plant
July 3, 2016 at 10:36 pm -
@tdf – I lobbied for Mandatory Reporting legislation, in North American jurisdictions, for decades. Such legislation is in effect were I live now. There hasn’t been the explosion of reporting, that you anticipate, here.
If I have any regret about mandatory reporting, it would be with respect to the old notion of “the best interests of the child”. It isn’t true that, “in the old days” before 1980 let’s say, reports of CSA resulted in prosecution of suspects less often entirely because children were routinely not believed. The church heirarchies that moved accused ministers and lay workers around, didn’t move them because they disbelieved child complainants. They moved them, because they believed those reports were quite possibly – or even probably – true. The same is true of very old complaints against Boy Scouts of America members, dating back to the end of WW2. BSA officials believed the children alright, as their secret files showed. In both cases, however, preventing public embarassment of the organizations often took precedence over concern for the child, tragically, and so reporting to police was discouraged.
But it was also discouraged, in cases where an objective assessment by all of the adult parties involved lead them to conclude that putting this particular child on the stand to testify in court was NOT “in the best interests of the child”. Obviously, such an assessment could be very convenient for the perpetrator – let’s not pretend that wasn’t so. Nevertheless, when you read some of the interviews with very young children who were victimized in CSA pornography seized by police – where there is no doubt of the perpetrators guilt or who the victims might have been – some children just couldn’t possibly handle the role of complainant/witness. They refuse to acknowledge what took place, even denying that it is them in images presented to them, and find the interview so distressing it has to be stopped. How could such a child possibly BENEFIT from being forced to participate in prosecution of the perpetrator?
Fortunately, despite the mantra repeated over & over in Sarah Nelson’s new book, that “the perpetrator never confesses” – statistics reveal that in many cases the child will never have to testify in court, because the accused pleads guilty.
“Data from the Queensland Police Service, the courts, and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions were analyzed for the years 1994 to 1998…The majority of reported offenses were committed against children younger than 16 years of age (58 percent)…Data from the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions show that approximately half of the defendants between 1994 and 1998 pleaded guilty…”
“To describe the outcome of prosecuting alleged intrafamilial/caretaker child sexual abuse, the authors evaluated charts for 1986-1988 at La Rabida Children’s Hospital and Research Center in Chicago, plus police records for Area V, Chicago for 1986-1987. The state’s attorney’s office provided data on outcome of legal proceedings….Thirty-two (48.5%) of those indicted pleaded guilty”
“U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics: In 1992 an estimated 21,655 felony defendants nationwide were convicted of rape; 8 in 10 had pleaded guilty…”- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 12:35 am -
@TBD– “I lobbied for Mandatory Reporting legislation, in North American jurisdictions, for decades. Such legislation is in effect were I live now. There hasn’t been the explosion of reporting, that you anticipate, here. ”
Fair enough. Possibly the arguments against mandatory reporting are weaker than I had thought.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 4, 2016 at 12:39 am -
Think you’re confusing the ‘Plant’ with the ‘Dwarf’ there, tfd.
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 12:53 am -
@TBD,
Sorry, yes, you’re right, previous was meant as reply to A Potted Plant.
- A Potted Plant
July 4, 2016 at 1:13 am -
@tdf – I was once a leprechaun, but I converted to Smurf-ism because it is more socialist.
- A Potted Plant
- tdf
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 3:52 pm -
A Potted Plant, have you a reference in the book for Sarah Nelson’s assertions that “the perpetrator never confesses”?
- A Potted Plant
July 4, 2016 at 7:50 pm -
@Owen – that’s my paraphrase of the Judith Herman quotation referred to several times in the text.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 9:39 pm -
OK, A Potted Plant, can you tell me what the quotation says and confirm that Sarah Nelson uses it to express her own view that “the perpetrator never confesses”? I have to say that it seems a little unlikely she’d have said that.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 9:58 pm -
Possibly referring to page 96?
https://books.google.es/books?id=52tPDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA441&lpg=PA441&dq=sarah+nelson+child+abuse+book&source=bl&ots=hkJayfL-B3&sig=s5XOcqilxY3CS4xSafWb1TV5ejg&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq9vaw1trNAhXMAxoKHWhpAKEQ6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=Judith%20Herman&f=false- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 1:01 am -
Thanks for helping out A Potted Plant’s memory, Bandini, that was useful. Herman says that the perpetrator fights to prevent public disclosure of the abuse, and to ensure that the abuse remains unseen. That’s not the same as “the perpetrator never confesses”.
So, A Potted Plant, I’m left uncertain what purpose is served by commenting “despite the mantra repeated over & over in Sarah Nelson’s new book, that “the perpetrator never confesses”” when that’s not what Nelson or Herman say, except that you seem to have some scab to pick with Ms Nelson or perhaps again with Liz Davies..- A Potted Plant
July 5, 2016 at 1:12 pm -
@Owen – you are welcome to your own interpretation of that quotation. Funny that I don’t see you, or anyone else, complaining about Dr Nelson’s “creative interpretation” of Henderson’s 1975 American psychiatric textbook statement about incest occuring in one out of a million American families – where Nelson has replaced the word “incest” with “CSA” ! Nor do I see anyone complaining about the original mis-interpretation of Henderson’s statement, which did NOT refer to incestuous molestation or rape but rather to the common American criminal laws prohibiting “purporting to marry or engage in a spousal relationship, including sexual intercourse leading to progeny” – which was INDEED a one-in-a-million occurrence. And still is, by the way. Nor any complaint, that this deliberately creative interpretation has then been used to assert that – since American psychiatrists apparently didn’t believe incestuous MOLESTATION existed, that must mean that NO ONE ELSE in society believed it existed.
Yes, many bones to pick, but none worse than the ongoing betrayal of the very persons these ladies purport to be champions of, by continuing to advocate the squandering of resources on the chasing of geese – i.e., your Jersey discussion below.
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 2:00 pm -
No, A Potted Plant, I wasn’t complaining about whatever it is you claim Dr Nelson was saying on other subjects because it’s enough of a job trying to get to the bottom of what you were actually saying about “Richard”‘s experience in Jersey. Since I still can’t figure that out, I’m disinclined to go round the houses trying to find out what you or anyone else has been saying about something else. I’m afraid your reference to investigations into abuse in Jersey as squandering resources and chasing geese, doesn’t encourage me to pursue the elusive thread of whatever else it is you’re trying to say. Let’s take a breather till the Jersey Care Inquiry reports and then we’ll hopefully have some firm ground beneath our feet.
- A Potted Plant
July 5, 2016 at 3:02 pm -
Yes, I’ve noticed that you are disinclined to pursue lines of discussion when your attempts to spin other people’s words or meaning is refuted by them. Such as your attempt to portray me as a skeptic of Jersey ABUSE inquiries, when you are quite aware I was referring to the fruitless search for murdered children’s bodies in HDLG.
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 8:00 pm -
You quite take my breath away.
- tdf
July 5, 2016 at 10:31 pm -
@Owen
“Let’s take a breather till the Jersey Care Inquiry reports and then we’ll hopefully have some firm ground beneath our feet.”
Inclined to agree. There’s nothing much more to be said until the Jersey Care Inquiry reports.
- A Potted Plant
- Owen
- A Potted Plant
- Owen
- Bandini
- Owen
- A Potted Plant
- tdf
- gwendolyn
July 4, 2016 at 10:09 am -
i live in south australia and work in a ‘caring’ profession, and we have mandatory reporting. i have been obliged to take a 7 hour course in the protection of children and vulnerable people. it is harrowing, lots of tears all round. but i know what to look for, what to ask and how to report, how the system works. i have never had to report but the training sensitises and educates and clarifies.
Anna i love you for cutting thru the bullshit. hate campaigns like the savile case do nothing to protect children.
- A Potted Plant
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 4, 2016 at 12:21 am -
Oh for fuckitty fucks sake!(Sorry Landlady, I’ll put a pound in the swear box).
Something Owen, of all people, said has just caused me to type a name into google. Unless I am very much mistaken I not only knew one of the supposed Islington abusers personally, but admired him greatly and he taught me a hell of lot. Infact he guided me and taught me something about being a husband, a business man and a dad.
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 1:16 am -
@TBD,
if it’s Rabet you refer to, would have thought the evidence is damning.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 9:58 am -
The Blocked Dwarf, if on careful reflection you think that there was anything about the person you knew which it might be important to discuss with someone, you might consider contacting the independent chair of Islington’s Safeguarding Children Board, Alan Caton, at alan.caton@islington.gov.uk
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 4, 2016 at 4:33 pm -
Thank you Owen, but had the person concerned (if it him be, I’m only 90% sure) committed a crime against me (and I must stress he didn’t, infact the opposite) or I had knowledge of criminal actions by him against others, be they minors or adults , and again I stress I don’t and if he were still alive (he isn’t) then I hope would have the moral fibre to go to the only place for such allegations/witnessing the police.
I take a rather strict line on this one, I used to refuse to,and still would, report any Kiddy Porn I found online (I moderated a sex bbs with very liberal posting rules) to anyone but the Police. Not self appointed or industry appointed sheriffs, not ‘victims’ groups nor anyone else.
But as said, he is dead and that long since…infact he died just after I knew him. The time for such things is when the ‘perp’ is alive, thereafter any Allgators should forever hold their peace, exceptional circumstances barring, in my view-if only out of respect for the remaining family…and I happen to be (i think) vaguely connected to his widow (cousin’s step sister’s husband’s aunt type ‘connection’).
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 10:14 pm -
I understand the point you’re making, The Blocked Dwarf. Even if you had been aware of any specific crimes, which you’re not, I’m not suggesting you should report them to anyone other than the police. But if you had any doubts or suspicions that might not have reached the threshold of certain knowledge, that’s when it might be useful to talk to someone in a position of responsibility who has an overview of the ongoing situation, particularly since circumstantial information can be vital in making sense of a wider picture, one in which there may still be an ongoing threat to the vulnerable or a failure to deal with institutional failings of the kind that Goddard’s Islington thread will investigate (Goddard’s inquiry insists that information about crimes as such is taken to the police, not submitted to the inquiry). Anyhow it is of course your call.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 5, 2016 at 12:07 am -
But if you had any doubts or suspicions
I doubt very much that the allegation , made over a decade ago, against this man was anything more than ‘revenge’ (quite possibly justified in my view) and I suspect strongly that an envelope containing cash was passed over the pub table by a Gentleman Of Fleet Street one lunchtime-making as it did a good headline with which to blacken the name of a politician (quite possibly justified in my view).
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 1:05 am -
Follow-up research or speculation?
- Owen
- The Blocked Dwarf
- tdf
July 5, 2016 at 1:24 am -
@TBD
Don’t answer the question if you don’t wish to, but is there any sense in which your experiences might relate to those of a now deceased Scottish actor?
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 5, 2016 at 12:08 pm -
No, nor to ‘the Scottish Play‘ either .
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Owen
- The Blocked Dwarf
- tdf
- Moor Larkin
July 4, 2016 at 7:41 am -
““The average cost of each investigation is £19,000, so the police force is now spending a billion pounds a year on cases. If it continues at this rate we will be investigating 200,000 cases at a cost of £3 billion by 2020”.”
I think it was the estimable Maggie Jervis who always advised, “Follow the money”
- windsock
July 4, 2016 at 10:02 am -
I don’t comment much on your child sexual abuse pieces because
1) what you state about the allegations being made post-mortem brooks no denial. It’s bloody obvious that it is useless, unless compensation is pursued and that – whether fair or not – looks dodgy.
2) I have volunteered with people who have been abused – and they were loath to ever talk about it. It was recorded in their Social Services files and was included in brief summaries to me of why they needed my assistance, but rarely did they ever talk about it. Interestingly, those who were in care for other reasons (e.g. neglect) often spoke about their experiences.
3) I have volunteered with those who have offended sexually against children and in some cases, their convictions straddled that borderline of consent/adolescence with which we struggle so much, but about which the law is absolute. They often felt ambivalent about the fairness of their convictions and regarded with horror those who offended against pre-pubescent children.
4) I have friends who were sexually active since (at the very earliest in one case) 6, and they all refute (now as adults) any idea they were abused.
5) I have other friends who were sexually active from pre-puberty (the earliest I believe was aged 9) and they now as adults DO regard themselves as abused.
6) I have no doubt that some people have been abused sexually as children but do not think ANYTHING at all about it because it was just part of their growing up.
7) I have known people who were abused sexually as children and knew at the time what was happening and have felt dreadful and fucked up about it all their lives but have chosen to do nothing about it, because they regard the idea of pursuing it now as only adding further distress to their lives.
8) What I have observed (and this can only be my correlation and is not subject to proof or evidence other than my own subjective view), is that those who regarded it as abuse from the start, or later came to that conclusion, all carried some psychological problems, raging in extremity and severity.
9)Those who have never regarded it as abuse may be odd(being sexually precocious may seem odd to some), but do not have those psychological problems (at least, not observationally nor self-diagnostically).
10)I was never sexually abused, but I was emotionally abused and neglected (A social worker once told me that if my childhood was repeated today, I would be taken into care). Despite it being uncomfortable, I remember every incident and word that would meet those definitions of abuse and neglect. I don’t know how that relates to child sexual abuse, but I feel it gives me some empathy to those who have experienced it and that brings me to the conclusion:For every individual, there is a story. It is up to every individual how, or even if, they tell their story and how they deal with it. People should neither be expected to reveal everything, or even anything. I would no more pursue my own parents for neglect/abuse (were they alive) than some of my friends would pursue those who were sexually active with them as children. No-one can know what is in another person’s mind. When someone has sex with a child, do they regard it as abuse? It’s so bloody complicated that the law is the only way we have to deal with it and it’s a blunt instrument. We say we are protecting children, but there is a cut off point at which they are supposed to be responsible for themselves. It can never be that clean cut in real life. So, I don’t comment much because I feel my own varied experiences doesn’t lead me to any one conclusion. Call me wooly-minded, but I try to take evrything I hear on an individual basis.
But God, in whom I do not believe, do I appreciate your legal take on anything. So thank you.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 10:55 am -
Thanks, Windsock, for outlining the complexities and difficulties of the issue so clearly, and anchoring them in reality.
- Fat Steve
July 4, 2016 at 1:35 pm -
@Winsock
Although I have no real experience of childhood other than my own, your analysis rings true …it is all about the individuals subjective response to the objective reality of events.
I do come at any issue initially as ‘First Do No Harm’ and firmly believe that that should be the basis of legislation ….of ‘Law’…..but Law and Justice are two different (though obviously closely allied) concepts …Legislation is objective whilst Justice admits subjective notions though I hold to the view of notions of an objective notion of Justice.
. The same distinction can be made as to ‘Evidence’ from a legal perspective and a non legal perspective …..I suggest infact that a large part of the unsatisfactory debate about Savile and the like is a confabulation between these two different concepts of Law/Justice and Evidence admissable in Law/ Evidence in a non legal sense. The debate is hopelessly confused until opinions expressed are qualified which of the two measres is being expressed .
We might usefully ask though why the seemingly sudden discontent ? …..and there are two competing views …..the past was rotten and the rotteness supressed …..or the past was good and better than where we are headed. The classic binary analysis that dominates just about all debate and the futility of which is amply illustrated by your post.
I am going to stick my neck out and offer something of a compendium explanation and that is that as Society in the UK has changed …..become more plural (I use this in its neutral sense), more disparate ( multicultural? again in a neutral sense of this word) and more egalitarian (everyones view has legitimacy) so the ‘old ways’ can’t cope and bluntly the ‘new ways’ are seen by many as unsatisfactory ….there is a lack of consensus as to how the collective subjective views translate into objective legislation
Perhaps no less worrying is how the Judiciary is attempting (or not) to broker the difference between Law and Justice
I personally pessimistic on both counts.
One could spend a great deal of time on both topics and I don’t hold myself as any sort of ‘expert’ on the first and neither for that matter on the second though with experience in the Law and some knowledge of Jurisprudence I do suggest that the Judiciary (much if one likes like the Legislature or the Executive ….or the Press) are reactive rather than pro active…..protective rather than bold …..courting approval . I will illustrate what I mean by observing what if a member of the judiciary dared to express the (to me at least the sensible , actually no more than admitting the importance of the subjective) views you have?
To extrapolate further (gosh the theory of everything?) doesn’t the referendum and the ensuing political chaos indicate more the lack of consensus than the meits of staying in the E.U.
But reverting to the Law/Justice there is one additional element that everyone who has precticed law in the recent past knows …..that imperative to look at everything ‘ commercially’ ……and of course in so doing Law has become ever more a ‘commercial commodity.
A good historian (Gildas where have you disappeared to?) might venture some ideas of historical precedent ….as a one time ‘umble Clerk of Laws I haven’t a clue but how I personally respond is to increasingly make my and my family’s lives less contingent on the organs of the state.
Usually I chuckle when I hear platitudes …..but honestly I feel genuinely queasy when the platitudes of ‘coming together ‘ or ‘an independent review to get the the truth’ are uttered nowadays.
Better to read your post than await (what for certain will be the first of just a number of reviews of the initial review) by Goddard …..and one wonders (apart from giving additional credence to the view that our own Judiciary just can’t cope) quite what a foreigner might bring to consensus and confidence that ‘we’ as a Country (if such a concept can be said to still exist) have got it ‘right (or wrong for that matter) in the past or will in the future.’- windsock
July 4, 2016 at 1:59 pm -
Steve (may I drop the “Fat”?):
We live in times of flux in a closed system (the planet Earth), with a growing number of people – and therefore subjectivities – and I find it hard to see the squaring the circle of individual freedoms and rights and experiences against absolutes dictated by the financial and political necessities of stability and the ability to provide resources (food, clothing, shelter) for all.
Maybe when we have space travel, we can all bugger off to our own little asteroid paradises and live in our own worlds.
- windsock
July 4, 2016 at 2:08 pm -
I missed justice off the list of resources – but equally necessary.
- Fat Steve
July 4, 2016 at 5:44 pm -
@windsock our own little asteroid paradises.
Your suggestion Windsock immediately brought to mind one of my favorite pieces of Cinema ….Slaughterhouse Five when Billy Pilgrim and his dog (a very very important charachter within the context) is transported by Tralfamadorians to a geodesic bubble and in due course is joined by Montana Wildhack (played by the peerless Valerie Perrin)
On occasion I have thought of changing my Nom de Guerre to the Nom de Plume Billy Pilgrim but decided that would be ludicously pretentious of me.
Unsurprisingly attempts to censor the novel Slaughterhouse Five in the ‘Land of the Free’ have been numerous !!!!- windsock
July 5, 2016 at 6:37 am -
Fat Steve: You have just had me scurrying to my book collection to dig out “Slaughterhouse Five”, which I haven’t read since I was a teenager. Also “Sirens of Titan”, which, although a lesser book, remains fresher in my memory – perhaps it’s the allusions to all human endeavours as essentially frivolous and beyond our own understanding. Kurt Vonnegut was a great writer. Thanks for the reminder.
- Fat Steve
July 5, 2016 at 9:34 am -
@Windsock Slaughterhouse Five
It was you that jogged my memory
Hope you have seen the film that Vonnegut described as ‘a flawless translation of my novel Slaughterhouse-Five to the silver screen’ and is in my top five movies of all time. I haven’t read enough Vonnegut to form a view on him as a writer but he has achieved the status of being quotable.I am thoroughly bemused by the American ‘establishment’ view of him summarised by one judgement in a ciruit court that described the book as “depraved, immoral, psychotic, vulgar and anti-Christian ‘……to me it is kind ….and seditious in the best sense of that word .
I am toying with the idea of changing my Nom de Guerre from Fat Steve (a deliberately contentious and politically incorrect label to cause people to hesitate to use the ‘F’ word ) not to Billy Pilgrim (to me he is the sort of hero well beyond my abilities to aspire to) but to Vonnegut’s catch phrase “So it goes,” because as you say Vonnegut alludes to all human endeavours as essentially frivolous and beyond our own understanding though I would qualify that heavily to all ‘communal’ human endevours (for example war referenced to the bombing of Dresden or complying with the norms of American Society in the 1950s) but the triumph of the individual human spirit if the individual ‘hangs on’ to amongst other things kindness ….sedition ‘pur’ in the modern world.- windsock
July 5, 2016 at 9:49 am -
Cool, we reminded each other. Strange and excellent how cultural references cross experiences, age and social position etc.
On that note – maybe out of place – a recommendation: Neal Stephenson.
- Fat Steve
July 5, 2016 at 10:58 am -
@Winsock
Just about to leave on a roadtrip but i have made a note on Stephenson and will look him up when I return ….a recommendation kindly made can never be out of place- windsock
July 5, 2016 at 11:03 am -
Tery “Anathem”… I think it will appeal to your philosophical taste.
- Fat Steve
July 10, 2016 at 7:51 pm -
Wow Windsock ….such an indie author and such an obscure work …..you are right its of interest but flatter that I might come to grips with it ….I have nevertheless ordered it.
- windsock
July 11, 2016 at 8:54 am -
Enjoy! (Be patient for the first 50/100 pages while you adjust to the references! Believe me, it pays off.)
- windsock
- Fat Steve
- windsock
- Fat Steve
- windsock
- Fat Steve
- windsock
- windsock
- windsock
- Lisboeta
July 4, 2016 at 2:03 pm -
Anna, I rarely feel the need to comment; usually, I have nothing pertinent to add. However, I am a keen reader of your blog. In June, I came home after 5 weeks away with no ‘Net access and one of the first things I did was catch up on your articles that I’d missed. It was a very interesting and informative few hours. And a far more productive use of time than opening the pile of snail-mail, washing dirty clothes, and wading through the email Inbox.
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 8:12 pm -
And – much as I’d expected – no takers for my comment above re Haut de la Garenne:-
“I still haven’t found anyone who can explain to me why lime was being used by a childrens ‘care’ home.”
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 4, 2016 at 8:33 pm -
I have absolutely no clue as to the age of the HdlG building but lime used to be used for various building purposes and if the building was being renovated?
BTW I am told by those who know such things (and the Nazis discovered in the camps as well) that lime is pretty shit for disposing of bodies.
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 8:42 pm -
@TBD
Your point about the lime possibly having being used during renovations is a possibility, certainly.
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 4, 2016 at 8:53 pm -
A quick look at the wiki for HdlG tells me that just about everybody on the bloody island used the building(s) for any number of purposes and storage at various times in it’s history. There are probably some German WW2 porn mags and John Nettles empty 5lt make up tins somewhere in the cellars, and as said, for nefarious purposes lime isn’t really ideal-there are plenty of much better ways of corpse disposal, especially on a Island.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 8:57 pm -
Aye – tossing ’em of Ted Heath’s yacht!
- The Blocked Dwarf
July 4, 2016 at 9:04 pm -
That would make more sense from a criminal point of view. “Those silly young scamps will sneak out at night to skinny dip, even though the currents in the bay are lethal.”
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Bandini
- The Blocked Dwarf
- tdf
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 8:35 pm -
Maybe they had a large number of rotten coconuts they needed to dispose of after the annual fete was rained off!
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 8:40 pm -
@Bandini,
Either you are being blog, or you have read Mr Rose’s articles on HDLG and done no further researches of your own.
Presumably you did not read the leaked report on the ‘voiceforchildren’ blogspot, for example?
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 8:46 pm -
^ sorry, typo above, ‘being blog’ should have read ‘being glib’, lol.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 8:50 pm -
Eh? I don’t profess to know much about HDLG. I remember reading something, probably the report you’re referring to, and marvelling at how some just wouldn’t let go of what was obviously a preliminary report whose tentative conclusions (if conclusions they were) were later shown to be wrong. I can’t be bothered looking again. You’re putting the lime-laden cart before the horse as if there was nothing found why waste time trying to figure out why lime was chucked in a pit? Old sacks needed disposing of, maybe. Who knows?
Don’t those who believe in the body-in-the-pit scenario also thing that bones & teeth were liberally scattered around the place too? Can’t see much logic in this.
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 9:00 pm -
@Bandini
Ok, but my point was that the coconuts thing is another myth. IIRC, the forensics people said, in relation to ONE particular fragment sent for analysis, that they couldn’t determine what it was. They didn’t precisely say it was a coconut shell fragment, they just said it wasn’t bone and was more likely wood or coconut shell.
- Owen
July 4, 2016 at 10:24 pm -
tdf, the failed audit trail for the evidence sent on from Oxford to Kew for analysis does not seem to have been adequately explained.
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 10:57 pm -
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 11:11 pm -
@Bandini,
Ok, that’s JAR-6.
What happened to the rest of JAR-1 to JAR-30 ?
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 11:27 pm -
Sorry, I hit ‘send’ without asking Owen if it was relevant or not.
The others? I have no idea. Why don’t you do what Mr Forskitt did if you sense a cover-up? It’d have to be an elaborate one though – someone fabricating a matching replica (in case the on-the-ground officers who had found the ‘fragment’ became suspicious and noticed the switcheroo) from Cocus nucifera & sending it on to Kew (unless you want to suggest the various professors & doctors were in on it). Anything is possible, I suppose, but…
- Bandini
- tdf
- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 11:13 pm -
^ From the letter Bandini posted from Kew, I would guess that Oxford discounted it as bone fragment and sent it on to Kew for further analysis, who found it to be a piece of coconut shell.
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 12:43 am -
Some collagen disappeared between Jersey and Kew. Bandini’s letter from Kew simply describes what happened to the piece of coconut shell supplied by W.Yorkshire to Kew, it doesn’t close the audit circle.
- Bandini
July 5, 2016 at 11:03 am -
What a rabbithole! Curiosity piqued, I had a gander at the ramblings of the internet’s finest minds on this ‘hot topic’ – ye Gods!
I was reminded of an infamous alleged blog posting relating to another sad case (unsurprisingly ‘related’ to this one by some…) which I only first heard of a few months ago, generally avoiding anything which attracts the crazies.
It certainly DID sound a bit odd, the alleged blog posting that is, and I was curious enough to want to see it for myself. No luck! All I could find were people totally convinced that it HAD existed, yet there was absolutely no sign of it anywhere.The endless spread of half-truths & nonsense seems to be what the internet was designed for at times – what a bloody waste. Bearing all that in mind, and having had a search for the seed of the collagen fact/factoid (1.6% they say!) could I ask you, Owen, to do what nobody else seems to be able to do and point me in the direction of the source of this information?
I’ve just perused the VFC and Rico Sorda sites and find NOTHING that satisfies me. In fact, the information I seek is requested there & the ‘answer’ is a series of links to other blog postings & various YouTube videos. No thanks!
Here is the jaw-dropping response to the repeated request:
“Tell you what YOU show me ANY official report on the archived police press releases where it states there was NO collagen.”Ho ho ho! Surely they’d just provide this information on which they base their bold statements? What’s the problem? Let’s be having you!
So Owen, YOUR bold statement – that some collagen disappeared between Jersey and Kew – please back this up with some facts (not YouTube videos!). Let’s see the ‘audit trail’ of this fact/factoid. I’m looking forward to this…
- Bandini
July 5, 2016 at 11:05 am -
Whoops, forgot the link:
http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com.es/2010/05/abracadabra.html - Bandini
July 5, 2016 at 1:58 pm -
Here Owen, I’ve saved you the bother:
http://www.jersey.police.uk/news-appeals/2008/may/clarification-regarding-daily-mail-article/From not enough collagen (but “high probability that the bone is much older than it is suspected to be, perhaps much older than a century or two”!) to 1.6% and then back down to probably 0% (“Now, she said, they were reverting to their original position that they could not date it because they now thought that it could not be collagen “unless it is extremely degraded.””), this omnishambles – or perhaps just a regular day in a lab devoted to very difficult work – was enough to convince you of someone swiping collagen to cover up a murder (what, 18th century?!?).
Absolutely ridiculous. Interesting comments regarding the poor quality reporting, though.
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 2:15 pm -
Bandini, just try reading what I said rather than reinventing it. I was pointing out that the specimen sent from Jersey for analysis wasn’t recognised as the same on its return and the audit trail was defective. According to Lenny Harper’s comment at your reference, to save further roaming, “There should be no problem whatsoever with accounting for the movements and whereabouts of this fragment, JAR/6, at any time. Each time it moves from or to the police store it should be carefully logged. We found the item on 23rd February. It remained with us, until from memory, the 6th March when it was taken to the Carbon Dating Lab in Oxford. We logged it out. We logged it back in again on 8th April when our Anthropologist again examined it and noticed that its appearance had changed considerably, and she was now not so sure of her verdict, although she could not reach a definite conclusion. The item should have been in the presence of the Oxford lab throughout the time it was there but it seems, that in breach of the rules of evidence they ‘passed it around.’ They seem to have got themselves into a real tangle, first of all stating it was too old for finding collagen, then finding it, then saying it was too degraded to date. Somewhere in all of this, a lab technician made the throwaway comment that it looked like a piece of coconut. (Funny how it was an unqualified technician and none of the experts who had examined it closely) This is the origin of the “ILM coconut” theory and of course encouraged by Warcup and Gradwell, along with their other public declarations such as the cellars not being cellars but only three feet voids. The item JAR/6 came back to us without a log of its movements from Oxford. As soon as it returned then we commenced again logging its movements and it should be no problem whatsoever to account for it from there on. Lenny Harper”
The item was sent to Oxford for carbon dating to evaluate its age and relevance to the inquiry. It’s not necessarily evidence of any crime, its significance is linked to the carelessly disrupted audit trail and the use of the coconut shell identification to rubbish the Power-Harper investigations.
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 2:20 pm -
To clarify my reference to “the inquiry” above: I’m referring to the police investigation of allegations concerning Haut de la Garonne. Obviously nothing to do with the Jersey Care Inquiry.
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 2:21 pm -
Correction
To clarify my reference to “the inquiry” above: I’m referring to the police investigation of allegations concerning Haut de la *Garenne*. Obviously nothing to do with the Jersey Care Inquiry. - Bandini
July 5, 2016 at 2:31 pm -
I’m not re-inventing your words, Owen, I’m quoting them:
“Some collagen disappeared between Jersey and Kew.”
Please point me to anything whatsoever that states that collagen was found to be present while it was in Jersey. It wasn’t, was it? The collagen was both ‘found’ and ‘lost’ by the same people in the same laboratory when they REVERTED to their earlier opinion.
As for the fragment “not being recognised on its return”, that is just pure bullshit:
“On 8 and 9 April I re-examined JAR/6 (the fragment) … It had dried out considerably and changed in colour, texture and weight. These changes caused me to reconsider my initial observation that the fragment was human bone…”
That’s right, Owen, caused to reconsider, NOT ’caused to think that some one had exchanged it for a coconut’. Hellfire!!!
- Bandini
July 5, 2016 at 2:37 pm -
Christ, I’ve had enough, but apologies for misquoting you:
(Should have been “wasn’t recognised as the same on its return” not “not being recognised on its return”.)
- Owen
July 5, 2016 at 8:31 pm -
Bandini, if you need me to repeat Lenny Harper’s words, which you seem not to have read, I will:
“… The item should have been in the presence of the Oxford lab throughout the time it was there but it seems, that in breach of the rules of evidence they ‘passed it around.’ They seem to have got themselves into a real tangle, first of all stating it was too old for finding collagen, then finding it, then saying it was too degraded to date.”
The point being that the presence of collagen, even when too degraded to date, is indicative of animal tissue, consistent with the initial assumed human origin of the specimen sent to Oxford. As your Kew letter confirms, the material received by them was identified by Kew experts as being of plant origin. The Jersey anthropologist, receiving the JAR/6 specimen back could see that it was not human tissue.
The point is, if it needs further spelling out, that the evidence entrusted to expert care in Oxford was found to show the presence of collagen whereas the specimen examined at Kew was of a type that would not have had any. The incomplete audit trail suggests the possibility that the JAR/6 specimen that left Jersey was not the same as the JAR/6 specimen that returned. Consequently the weight of scorn heaped on all Harper’s finds (including the other specimens of “fresh and fleshed bones” that tdf has referred to) and the efforts by interested parties to discredit his inquiries on the basis of this “coconut shell” specimen rest on a shaky platform.
I’m sure you’ll find a way of saying that I’ve not said what I’ve said or I’ve said something different to what I’ve said, but you have to do your thing, I understand that and let’s leave it at that, it’s dizzying going round in circles with you and A Potted Plant at the same time.
- Bandini
July 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm -
I’m wondering what percentage of collagen would be found in that thing sat atop your neck, Owen.
“The point being that the presence of collagen…” Aaaarghh!!! There was no presence of collagen you boob!
Harper is wrong to say that they “first of all [stated] it was too old for finding collagen” – they simply said there was not enough to date. They didn’t know how old it was, and made this clear at that early stage:“This tells us something about the potential age of the specimen… …a high probability that the bone is much older than it is suspected to be… … also possible (although the probability is much lower) that the bone is recent…”
I get that feeling that Harper’s own nut wasn’t capable of processing such equivocal scientific information: ‘potential’, ‘probability’, ‘possible’ – words lost on him.
You are also disgracefully misrepresenting the anthropologist with this: “The Jersey anthropologist, receiving the JAR/6 specimen back could see that it was not human tissue.”
Why would you do that, Owen? Do you think that by writing something that isn’t true it magically will become so? Are you a religious nut?
“It had dried out considerably and changed in colour, texture and weight. These changes caused me to reconsider my initial observation that the fragment was human bone although I cannot reach a definitive conclusion without conducting further chemical analysis.”
You’d be right at home with Harper. And here you go again: “the evidence entrusted to expert care in Oxford was found to show the presence of collagen whereas the specimen examined at Kew was of a type that would not have had any…”
No! After going all out to examine something which they were led to believe was bone (after an initial observation on Jersey) they thought they’d found some & then realised that they hadn’t. There was no collagen to lose between Oxford & Kew as there was never any collagen in the first place.
The same person who made the initial observation thinking it was bone received the item back and the massive conspiracy theory you obviously want the world to believe existed was of such an amateurish nature that they couldn’t even ‘copy’ the ‘skull’ without changing its “colour, texture and weight”! Comedy gold! Way to go, MI5!!!
Luckily for them the anthropologist foolishly put these changes down to it having “dried out considerably” (which obviously wouldn’t happen with a tiny piece of summat dug up out of the ground and subjected to scientific analysis on the basis that is was summat else, eh?) and was none the wiser!
You’re poisoning the well with this rubbish. I’d realised you’d clambered aboard the nutterbus but had hoped you might have purchased a return-ticket; obviously not. Here’s another snippet from the Nelson book to which Davies contributes; something tells me it’s going to be right up your street:
“I suggest that there is a far simpler explanation for the conviction, which grew among some child protection staff, police, therapists, journalists and others in the late 1980s and early 1990s, that organised abuse in the form of ritual (including satanist) activity existed. This explanation accords with their actual, shocking, traumatising, month-by-month experience as evidence accumulated [like non-existent collagen…] in cases in which they were directly involved.”
- Bandini
- Owen
July 6, 2016 at 9:35 am -
Bandini, I really don’t have a problem retracting what you call my “disgraceful misrepresentation” of the reaction of the Jersey anthropologist. Perhaps you’re right, perhaps I presumed too much in summarising it as “The Jersey anthropologist , receiving the JAR/6 specimen back could see that it was not human tissue.”. So if I revise my phrasing to bring it back closer to Lenny Harper’s original wording and say “The Jersey anthropologist , receiving the JAR/6 specimen back, noted changes that caused her to reconsider her initial observation that the fragment was human bone.”, I hope you’ll find that statement less “well-poisoning”.
For the rest, I do urge you to consider the health risks of too much steam between the ears.
- Bandini
July 6, 2016 at 10:33 am -
Yeah, why bother with the actual statement of the anthropologist when you can quote the fool who shot his mouth off to the world´s press and has spent the succeeding years in trying to blame everyone else for the mess he himself caused!
Did you even notice that the investigation – under Loony Harper’s cack-handed command – had ELIMINATED the ‘skull’ from their enquiries until the Oxford team re-contacted them with their further findings which suggested they had found collagen (but which later turned out to be incorrect)? Yes, those responsible for your ‘cover up’ reinserted the item into the investigation, only to have to then fabricate a not-very-convinving copy out of Playdoh – baked in the oven & painted with tiny pots of earth-toned Humbrol – to remove it once more! It all makes perfect sense (to a total nutter).
You are quite right that I am angry, though. I consider you & your ilk to be quite poisonous, evil even (word used after consideration). Go and sprinkle your miserable spores in some fetid corner far, far away from me. Go and ‘therapise’ some poor bastard until you’ve convinced him he saw bodies being tipped into a lime pit as a 5-year old. Hallelujah!
- Owen
July 6, 2016 at 2:30 pm -
Bandini, you observed a short while ago that “I don’t profess to know much about HDLG.” In just over a day you’ve become an authority. I salute your commitment and your self-confidence.
- Bandini
- Bandini
- Owen
- Bandini
- Owen
- tdf
- tdf
- tdf
- Bandini
July 4, 2016 at 8:41 pm -
“One theory I heard is that they were dug to dispose of dead Jersey cows that had fallen victim to a hushed-up case of foot-and-mouth disease.”
‘Tis as good as any other!
http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1480.20;wap2- tdf
July 4, 2016 at 8:44 pm -
@Bandini
Pomme de Terre’s points make sense I guess. Jersey was decades ago (1960s/1970s and before) very heavily agriculturally & tourism dependent.
- tdf
- The Blocked Dwarf
- MartinW
July 5, 2016 at 9:35 am -
What an extraordinary and disgusting statement by the Bishop of Chelmsford, Stephen Cottrell. As a Christian, I regard his attitude as deeply un-Christian. He seems to regard protecting the Church’s original decision and reputation above everything else.
- tdf
July 17, 2016 at 10:07 pm -
For what it’s worth, it seems that respected advocate Philip Sinel also feels there are unanswered questions with regard to Haut de la Garenne:
http://ricosorda.blogspot.ie/2016/07/advocate-philip-sinel-letter-to-jersey.html
- Bandini
July 18, 2016 at 12:49 am -
Never heard of him but his blather is barely literate at times: “Is that what is being done here or is the Data Protection Commissioner lending herself to the whiles of the oligarchy?” No idea!
Whenever I see ‘respected whatnot’ I’m remined of the oft rolled-out ‘award-winning journalist – a sure sign that someone’s about to unimpress:
“This is the letter Advocate Philip Sinel sent to the JEP. They asked him to cut it down to 450 words before they would consider it for publication. He was not prepared to “water it down”…”
Fearlessly refusing to come to the point! And what IS his point? Copying & pasting whole sections of a ‘disappeared’ summat or other prove what, exactly? He missed out this bit anyway:
“A fragment of what the forensic anthropologist describes as being POSSIBLY human juvenile skull was recovered from within a VICTORIAN context of the excavation. The fragment was shipped to the U.K. for confirmation of substance, species, carbon dating and DNA testing. The laboratory conducting the analysis reported CONFUSED and CONFLICTING findings therefore NO CONCLUSION is available at this time.”
His firm’s highlighted cases include this one:
“Highly controversial human rights/democracy issue. Unsuccessful attempt to cause the Courts to right a denial of democracy in the States. The Court declined to assert jurisdiction over the legislative.”Acting for someone called ‘Syvret’, a name which rings a bell…
If he’s so fond of whatever it is he’s quoting from why didn’t he quote a little bit more? He finishes his letter with the following quoted paragraph: “A significant amount of human remains have been recovered that is suggestive of foul play in relation to the cause of death and guilty knowledge during deposition…”Dah-dah-dah! Given his reluctance to ‘water down’ his bombshell revelations he may as well have continued:
“At present the techniques used for dating purposes are suggesting a period of time for three fragments as being
1450 – 1650
1450 – 1650
1650 – 1950This is not of sufficient accuracy to assist the SIO in a decision as to commencing a homicide [!!!] enquiry.”
So he’ll take the bits from a preliminary report which suit his purpose – piles of bones & milk-teeth – but he isn’t much interested in the bits from the SAME preliminary report that suggest that Cro-Magnon man may have lost it with a coconut when his tiny brain confused it with the skull of an adversary… Guilty knowledge? Bruised egos more like.
- tdf
July 18, 2016 at 12:59 am -
Bandini, you impress me. For a fellow that claimed to have known next to nothing about Haut de la Garenne until a few short weeks ago, you seem to have now become an expert on the matter!
You previously stated that you had conducted a search on various blogs and failed to find this mysterious report that Advocate Sinel has quoted from.
I take it that you have now managed to locate it? The least you could do is throw up a link, in order that we can all arrive at our own assessment.
- Bandini
July 18, 2016 at 10:13 am -
Uh-oh, here they come: those late-night/early-morning messages! Try and make sure the cork is in the bottle before firing these off, TDF, or you’re just going to look silly. To wit…
“You previously stated that you had conducted a search on various blogs and failed to find this mysterious report that Advocate Sinel has quoted from.”
Er, no I didn’t! I actually wrote in a reply (to you!): “I remember reading something, probably the report you’re referring to…”
To wit, t wo:
“The least you could do is throw up a link, in order that we can all arrive at our own assessment.”
It’s already linked-to from within the link YOU posted above! My giddy aunt…
- tdf
July 18, 2016 at 10:14 pm -
Mea culpa. I had merely read the letter, not realising that the ‘Voiceforchildren’ blogger had included a link to the full report in the comments.
- tdf
- Bandini
- tdf
July 18, 2016 at 1:06 am -
“Acting for someone called ‘Syvret’, a name which rings a bell…”
You’re not trying to pull that “guilty by assocation” crapola vaguery again, Bandini, are you? Owen quite correctly, had you bang to rights on that previously – in this very thread in fact – with regards to your odd comments re Liz Davies, and you seem to be at it again.
I truly and genuinely hope you are aware that it is the DUTY of any half decent (or, perhaps, more importantly, semi-ethical) lawyer to represent anyone that they are required to, to the best of their ability – regardless of that lawyer’s personal, political (or other) views. If you’re not aware of that very straightforward and long-standing precept, then I am wasting my time with you.
- Bandini
July 18, 2016 at 11:07 am -
It may be a lawyer’s duty to do all that, TDF, but he was under no obligation to include the (failed) case in a list: “These are a selection of cases and deals we have worked on…”
Anyway, it isn’t the only time Syvret takes a bow:“Claims of wholesale concealment and corruption in Jersey. Syvret v. Chief Minister, States Employment Board, States of Jersey and Her Majesty’s Attorney-General:
Sinels acted as amicus curiae in a complex strike out application brought by the Solicitor-General on behalf of the defendants. Following a failed application that Mr Jonathan Sumption QC recuse himself, the court dealt with complex constitutional, civil and criminal claims which implicated private individuals, public authorities, ministers and members of the judiciary. The claimant alleged wholesale concealment and corruption in Jersey’s political and judicial processes in relation to crimes allegedly committed against children.”I’m not sure why my comments regarding Davies would be deemed ‘odd’; what seems ‘odd’ to me is that a person with no recollection whatsoever of being abused (around the age of 5-7) could ‘re-discover’ these memories after falling in with believers in wide-scale organized abuse, and that those excavated memories would even include the name of an abuser. Shouldn’t we be slightly concerned at the process which led to these revelations?
Back to Jersey, and if you’d seen the timeline of events you’d know that after launching a search for remains, and having a tentative discovery from the anthropologist, Loony Harper didn’t bother waiting for any checks or confirmation but instead launched a press conference to tell the world about the ‘skull’ – the very same day it was dug up! And he’s been trying to dig himself out of a hole ever since:
“At 10:45 am the SIO [Loony Harper] made a decision to release information to the press about the find. At 2pm the same day a press conference disclosed this item as the finding of the potential remains of a child.”
His media love-in did make him some fans, though: Sarah Nelson dropped him a line:
http://saff.nfshost.com/sarahnelsontolennyharperjerseycaseemailheader3of3-1.jpg
The same Nelson who pens books with Davies & shares a belief in “organised abuse in the form of ritual (including satanist) activity” and who claims that there is a load of evidence (“…actual, shocking, traumatising, month-by-month experience as evidence accumulated…”) to back this up (but which presumably must remain hidden in a vault as I’ve never seen it).Guilt by association? What on earth are all the crazies doing implying cover-ups by anthroplogists, police, coconut experts, etc.? Named people smeared with bullshit.
- tdf
July 19, 2016 at 1:15 am -
“Shouldn’t we be slightly concerned at the process which led to these revelations?”
I accept that – we should.
“Back to Jersey, and if you’d seen the timeline of events you’d know that after launching a search for remains, and having a tentative discovery from the anthropologist, Loony Harper didn’t bother waiting for any checks or confirmation but instead launched a press conference to tell the world about the ‘skull’ – the very same day it was dug up! And he’s been trying to dig himself out of a hole ever since: ”
Well, perhaps he shouldn’t have done that. I suspect he was not the most diplomatic person in the world and ruffled some feathers during his time in Jersey. On principle, I’d argue, in general a good thing. I don’t want senior policemen to be the best diplomats in the world, particularly when they are investigating potentially very serious crimes. And I think he acknowledged, even before retiring, that there was insufficient evidence to pursue any homicide investigations with regard to HDLG. But it’s easy to criticise in hindsight – which is why the overall context of constitutional power and the exercise thereof on the island of Jersey becomes important – hence, the Clothier report.
- tdf
- Bandini
- tdf
- Bandini
- tdf
July 17, 2016 at 11:15 pm -
^ Granted, it seems rather unlikely that if unlawful deaths did really take place at HDLG, those responsible would chose to bury the remains in the grounds of the place rather than in the nearby sea.
- tdf
July 18, 2016 at 1:16 am -
Incidentally, Jersey’s rule of governance and constitutional system is, indeed, highly controversial.
If you won’t take it from Advocate Sinel, or ex-Senator Syvret, or me, then the very least you could do is consider the words in Sir Cyril Clothier’s report.
http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/States_of_Jersey
- Bandini
July 18, 2016 at 11:16 am -
Eh? No time to read yet another report from someone I’ve never heard of about an island I’ve never visited!
- tdf
July 19, 2016 at 1:08 am -
^@Bandini
That’s a pity – as, in my view, it’s important because it shows the context, the background, of what Syvret, Harper, Power etc might have had to deal with or been up against in the course of their careers in policing/politics in Jersey.
Syvret has tweeted that at times he has felt that he could be assassinated. It’s a mite difficult to square that with him still basing himself in Jersey, but then again, it’s his island, why should he leave it? As the old saying goes, “just because you are paranoid, doesn’t mean no-one’s out to get you.”
- tdf
- Bandini
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