So if we’re not Remainia, what happens next?

by Anna Raccoon on June 24, 2016

“Sneer at us, scare us, patronise us; but never forget;

For we are the people of England, that have spoken now.”

With apologies to that nice Mr Chesterton!

Cap’n G has his fine vessel victualed and provinded and is ready to set ~~sail~~ motor; so I shall be ‘Up River’ for the day. Counting cormorants; spotting seals; ducking marauding hen parties on hire boats.

I shall leave you all to do the unimportant things in the comments; like conducting the post mortem on the political earthquake…

Enjoy yourself. More than one link and you will be stuck in moderation until I get back.

{ 233 comments… read them below or add one }

david June 24, 2016 at 9:29 am

“Splice the mainbrace” at eight bells

Mudplugger June 24, 2016 at 9:36 am

Already spliced mine at 4am when the result became clear.

But God Bless the good ship Raccoonia and all who sail in her.

Fred Karno June 24, 2016 at 12:29 pm

Splicing ours now.

JuliaM June 24, 2016 at 3:33 pm: Looking forward to splicing mine in about 2 hours

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Don Cox June 24, 2016 at 9:45 am

This is similar to the time when we left the Roman Church. The English don’t like being ruled by either Rome or Brussels.
There will be plenty of problems ahead, but we will sort them out somehow.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 12:50 pm

but we will sort them out somehow.

Indeed you will (It being something of a true British trait unlike tolerance, liberty etc)…it’s just the ‘somehow’ that scares me. Fortunately my adult sons had the good sense to listen to their dear old Dad and renewed their German Passports (they hold both) last year so when the ‘somehow’ hits the fan they have their own personal brexit strategy to hand. I pity those who don’t have the option of being able to emigrate/escape by simply stepping on RyanAir to Hahn.

Mr Ecks June 24, 2016 at 1:41 pm

Rubbish.

There is big economic trouble coming everywhere because of the thieving , meddling habits of the worlds socialistic states.
We have a hell of a lot more chance of getting thro’ with the least pain outside that collection of dictatorial, bureaucratic, thieving scumbags than we do in.

If you send your kids to Germany you are sending them into trouble not away from it.

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 2:16 pm

hmmmm…a rash move. Many European banks are on the edge of the abyss anyway. You know nothing of the ‘real’ British if you think liberty and tolerance aren’t traits: pigheadedness is another: not knowing when we’re beaten…that’s what built an empire and ran the world for a fair lick.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 2:52 pm

I said, an “exit strategy” not a rash move and being the edge of the abyss is kinda what all banks everywhere do, and have done since the C14 in Augsburg or wherever the concept of modern banking was born.

You know nothing of the ‘real’ British
Well I can document my Britishness back to 1545, oh ok the Norfolk side of my genealogy anyways-does that count? I ask cos it seems to me that ‘real’ England (ie London) , as opposed to the Provinces, voted to remain.

I would contend that violent dyspepsia from the Full English is what built our Empire.

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 6:11 pm: No, they don’t; I thought it was Italian benches (bancos), and later modern banking that we know via the Dutch.

Me too, to the end of the 1400s actually, Somerset and Leicestershire mainly. “You know nothing of the ‘real’ British” was a direct response to your claim. Don’t quote it back as if it’s me attacking you.

London these days isn’t ‘real’ England, it’s a world in a filter bubble…as has been proved again last night.

The empire wouldn’t have existed without the traits I mention.

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Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:03 pm

Liberty & Tolerance built an empire? I don’t thinks so. Bigger guns and ships did it although the British have a remarkable ability to gloos over their past and paint a much prettier picture.
That empire took a 1000 years to build but rapidly diminished in less than a 100 years and now less than a quarter of the population will put the final nails in the coffin. Agree though that pigheadedness is most certainly a trait. The sort of one where everyone goes down with the ship singing Rule Britannia.
We live in interesting times

Major Bonkers June 26, 2016 at 8:45 am

‘This realm of England is an empire’: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tudor-england/the-act-in-restraint-of-appeals/

Whyaxye June 24, 2016 at 10:07 am

Happy day. When’s Corbyn going?

JuliaM June 24, 2016 at 3:35 pm

Pretty soon! The Labour Party loves to eat its leaders when they fail.

Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:05 pm: Doubt he’s going anywhere. The party members elect the leader and they won’t have changed their mind just because the Blairites have chosen to strike. It’s more likely to be the end of the New Labourites.

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Michael June 24, 2016 at 10:26 am

Possibly the only election where I didn’t hold the pencil with one hand and my nose with the other.
The toes in the statue are cracking. The dream of Rome is coming to the end of its days.

eric June 24, 2016 at 11:45 am

But it’s not true is it? Less than 25% voted to leave but of course, they win according to the rules. Britain’s voting system is stuffed.

Ed P June 24, 2016 at 12:19 pm

I think you may have mixed up the figures for total UK population and elegible voters.

42.2% (17,410,742) of the total number of elegible voters (41,241,102) selected Exit, on a turnout of 81.36% (33,551,983 voted).

Don Cox June 24, 2016 at 3:00 pm

And about 39% voted to Remain. So Brexit still won, even if you correct for the proportion of possible voters who voted.

I think the turnout was remarkably high.

Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:13 pm: Oh I agree the turnout was high but that’s a probably because so many who normally can’t be bothered voting turned out to get rid of Johnny Foreigner and those immigrants they think have taken their council houses.
No I haven’t confused the figures but yes I am referring to a quarter of the population. You don’t think those that can’t vote matter?

But it’s early days and there has to be a reason that it was a non-mandatory referendum which gives Parliament where the majority of MPs are Remain a lot of wriggle room- if chaos occurs they can exercise their lawful vote and reject that advice.

And that is democracy- referendums with no power are not part of Britain’s democratic process. Parliament is the power and it has a duty to exercise it even if they make unpopular decisions which they do all the time.

But everything may be OK on the day. Despite what people say about Cameron he did the whole correctly. This either ends for all time the demands to leave the EU or it will reaffirm over the next 2/3 years that it’s better to remain.

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Rossa June 24, 2016 at 3:32 pm

Ed P, does that include overseas ex pat voters in your total eligible voters as the BBC says 72% turnout?

Only reason I’m asking is that there is already a petition to have a rule implemented to hold a second vote if there’s a less than 75% turnout. Being promoted by disgruntled Remain voters. If we did have over 80% turnout, even if the rule existed it wouldn’t matter this time round. And most of these people don’t seem to realise that the result isn’t legally binding though it appears David Cameron has accepted it. Unless of course there is a legal challenge.

I shall be watching for the result of the Spanish General Election on Sunday with great interest. No doubt the EU apparatchiks will be running around trying to see what they can do to stop any contagion.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 3:42 pm

No doubt the EU apparatchiks will be running around trying to see what they can do to stop any contagion.

EXACTLY! That’s what’s worrying the EU atm: “contagion”. There is already a strongish move for a Frexit and a Nedexit. The nightmare for Brussels is if a ‘Euro’ country wants to exit, not that small bedraggled, fairly harmless, Island off the coast of Europia (mind you most of the EU would probably be quite happy to see a Grexit, they whinge almost as much as the Brits).

Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:23 pm: No there is only a strong move for Frexit & Nedexit from the far their right wing parties who have very little support. The only strong right wing party is in Austria and they don’t want out.
Marie Le Pen was told in no certain terms today there will no Frexit and there has been do clamoring from the French public.
What British tabloids hyperventilate isn’t always reality.

Watched fascinating interview with groups of Brexit voters in Manchester today as they all said it was about immigrants and then to a man & woman,began to tear into the EU leaders telling the Brits to begin the process asap :”who are they to tell us what to do now”
Unbelievable.

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Ed P June 24, 2016 at 10:19 pm

I got those figures from a mix of BBC & Telegraph sites. They include postal votes as well. The 72% was an earlier figure, on the votes cast at the time and not including postals, etc. Of course, believing anything emitted from the BBC is daft, so there may be considerable errors involved.

Ted Treen June 24, 2016 at 11:08 pm

Any legal challenge is likely to invoke the spirit of 1642 coupled with the spirits of Wat Tyler & Jack Cade – along with the sentiments of Dick the Butcher.

Ho Hum June 25, 2016 at 12:00 am: I concur. If they can get some fire in their bellies, the younger generations may well see the last of the Tory Toffs and back woodsmen, Labourite Islingtonians and Working men’s club denizens, their figuratively dancing on Tyburn Hill in due course being a just end . Probably too good for Farage and his lot . They’ll be hung drawn and quartered and their corpses paraded round the country

The real problem coming thereafter is who will they then choose to fill the void?

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Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:24 pm: There doesn’t need to be a legal challenge. It was a non-mandatory referendum and I’m surprised so few people understand this. Calls for a second more binding referendum are perfectly legitimate.

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Eddy June 24, 2016 at 12:20 pm

Its called democracy. Every British adult had a vote and a majority of those who chose to vote decided on Leave.
Perhaps you prefer a system where our lords and masters make the choice for us.

Nessie June 24, 2016 at 6:30 pm

Our Lords and Masters just called – they’re not happy about us democratically voting, and even less happy that we voted the wrong way. Pesky Brits.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 6:36 pm

Strange how those EU ‘masters’ are the ones insisting we invoke Art50 asap, preferably today….one might almost think they were happy to see us go…perish the thought.

Mudplugger June 24, 2016 at 8:20 pm

As far as I know, the only procedure for invoking Article 50 involves the application to exit being originated by the member-state which is wishing to leave – I do not know of a procedure which enables the EU to commence the Article 50 procedure itself, as that would be tantamount to expulsion.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 11:15 pm

I do not know of a procedure which enables the EU to commence the Article 50 procedure itself,

Which is why they are insisting/pressuring us to invoke it asap. *confused by your reply*

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 9:46 am

Agreed.

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:03 pm

Boris is reported to have said we don’t need to invoke Article 50 which I thought was the only way to Leave. However, some are saying if we repeal Article 51 of the European Communities Act of 1972 which took us in, in the first place, that sorts it as that UK legislation takes precedence. Anyone have any idea if this is true?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/68/section/2

Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 8:01 pm

“Boris is reported to have said we don’t need to invoke Article 50 which I thought was the only way to Leave”……..you have answered your own question, Boris the clown wants to stay in the EU, (but magically negotiate a better deal, even though Juncker has categorically stated there is no better deal)

The con(servative)-men are very keen to negate everything that has been achieved in the referendum, very much like what happened in Ireland.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 8:26 pm: Cascadian,

You could be right there, but I would like to know, when Boris (or, for that matter, anyone) talks of ‘negotiating a better deal for Britain’, what, precisely, does he mean?

I’m looking for someone to provide actual facts and figures and not vague stuff – and bear in mind that while the UK writ large is a net contributor to EU funds, economically depressed regions within it (including apparently some regions which voted heavily for Brexit, oh the ironing!) benefit heavily from EU funds.
Cascadian June 26, 2016 at 6:12 pm: tdf

“I’m looking for someone to provide actual facts and figures and not vague stuff “….then you will be very disappointed, the camoron party always did fly by the seat of their pants.

Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:30 pm

No it was a referendum with no legal standing except perhaps in the sense it reflects what a lot of people think.
To call it democracy is quite outrageous.
Parliament is the process of democracy and it has sovereignty. And General Elections are how parliaments are formed.
MPs have no obligation to act on a referendum and to infer they have is actually undermining the democratic process.

Ed P June 24, 2016 at 11:57 am

There’s an awful lot of Stockholm Syndrome about, with tearful prisoners blinking in the unaccustomed light now streaming through their open prison doors.

But as we all get used to this new freedom (& the problems ahead), it’ll become apparent to even the ones clinging to the walls of their cells with their eyes tight shut, that it’s going to be better away from the Titanic.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 12:24 pm

streaming through their open prison doors.

Back when the EU leaders refused to give Cameron any kind of deal that would have helped keep us in, it was clear that ‘the gaolers’ (to continue your somewhat cockeyed analogy) wanted us gone…with a hearty ‘good riddance to bad rubbish’. Herr Schultz didn’t quite say it like that this morning but did remind us all that they, the jailers, have expecting/hoping the UK would wander out through the open cell door for the last 40 years. I think i even reported here that , whereas in the UK, for weeks before the Summit , the MSM could only talk about what terms Cameron was going to get, as far the EU media were concerned the summit was about Migrants and nothing else.

There is a party in the Wardens Office tonight.Bring a bottle and wear your TFTWBHG! (Thank F**K The Whingey Brits Have Gone) or “WWDD?” (What Would De Gaulle DO) armbands with pride.

Mr Ecks June 24, 2016 at 1:44 pm

If you are so fond of them –move. Don’t stay with us whingers

Hair Schultz is a lying POS.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 2:32 pm

Hair Schultz is a lying POS.

As he is a socialist politician with facial hair,I wouldn’t disagree with you on that but still there will be a palpable sense of relief going around the corridors of Brussels today.

And Schultz knows the EU is going to make far more money from the UK post Brexit than it ever didn’t before.

Mr Ecks June 25, 2016 at 12:00 am: You are somewhat deluded. The EU steals money. It does not make money. No state makes money other than by printing it. The EU is a parasitical drain on the people of Europe as it lurches around promising vast handouts to everybody. Handouts that it cannot afford.

Europe will not prosper under the EU. It will be balkanised and turned into a poverty-stricken 3rd world shithole under an “elite” of very well off cultural Marxist tyrannical scum.

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Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 2:19 pm

Good riddance yes, bad rubbish no…as you and Herr Schultz are well aware. Sour grapes must taste awful.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 2:27 pm

Very little souring of those best champagne grapes I think. Like I said, if they had wanted GB to stay in they would have offered Cameron something that he could have taken to the Great British public without embarrassment. Some of the EU leaders openly complained even about having to once again deal with ‘British Issues’.

Even the Sainted Guack was on the tv the other day making it clear that the worry for Germany/the EU isn’t whether GB takes it’s rabbit pelts and toys away but whether other, more important to Germany, countries do. (“more important” tends to mean ‘countries we share an actual border with’ to German Politicians…like France, Holland etc).

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 2:55 pm

You misunderstand, I am not claiming they didn’t ‘not’ want us to leave. I am disagreeing on your ‘translation’ of it: the toys out of pram is Schultz et al…and you.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 3:00 pm: Ahh my bad, sorry.

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tdf June 24, 2016 at 11:39 pm

TBD,

Agree that Merkel & Juncker should have offered Cameron a better deal. Mind you, I’m not convinced to be honest, that it would even have effected the result.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:36 am

Maybe , maybe not..depends if they had offered him something both the non foaming Inners and Outers could have signed off on I guess, The fact they didn’t even try though speaks volumes…and I’m damn sure Cameron came back from that Summit knowing his goose was cooked so hard you could cut glass with it. If they had made him weara pink tutu and sing Frère Jacques they couldn’t have humiliated him more.

The thing that is bugging me tonight is why he is waiting until October to go. I’m probably missing something, surely he has a list of ‘care taker’ PMs handy…someone inoffensive, mildly brexitish but with no major messianic complexes until conference can anoint Boris?

tdf June 25, 2016 at 12:49 am

Would agree with your first paragraph.

Not sure why he is waiting until October to go…..would have thought either Javid or May would suit the bill as a caretaker leader.

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:05 pm: To stabilise the markets (as if) and both May and Javid may well be positioning themselves for a run at being PM.

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Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:32 pm

What freedom are you talking about? Nothing has happened yet. There has to be a vote in Parliament before an exit actually happens.
And I guarantee there will be an election before that happens.

Anna Raccoon June 26, 2016 at 2:14 pm: Interesting – what are you basing your belief on that there has to be a vote in parliament before exit?

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The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 12:11 pm

Aged Mother just hobbled round, Baba Yaga like, and was cock-a-hoop about the referendum result. As a dutiful son, I shall remind her, lovingly, of this day when she grizzles about what comes next..”but surely you wanted your government to be able to do whatever it wanted? Did you forget Grandma Dwarf’s sage advice that ‘they are all politicians and are all tarred with the same brush’ ? ”

4 years of unfettered rule by Comrade Corbynski or Mop Top & his Muppets should about ‘do’ for her i reckon.

Mr Ecks June 24, 2016 at 1:46 pm

Because Merkel and Hollande and the other cultural Marxist scum are SO much better.

Its the higher moral plane they are put on by trying to hide the truth about mass rape and sexual assault.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 2:22 pm

Because Merkel and Hollande and the other cultural Marxist scum are SO much better.

Not if they’re democratically (however you want to define that) elected politicians they ain’t. That’s the point you seem to have missed in my posts, it is the loss of the unelected oversight/control/ChecksNbalances that worries me. Bear in mind, Merkel and Hollande have about as much ‘sovereignty’ over their countries as Cameron does, both are subservient to Brussels.

Time was we had something called “The House Of Lords” to provide unelected oversight.

Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:36 pm: I respect everyone’s view on this but I thoroughly object to how so many seem totally oblivious to how the British democratic process actually works and believe Parliament is run by referendum.

Amazing that those who don’t seem to understand how their country actually works are the ones screaming they are taking back their “sovereignty”.

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Rossa June 24, 2016 at 3:41 pm

TBD, already moves afoot in the Labour Party to depose Corbyn.

New Tory PM to be decided at Tory conference in October, if DC is to be believed, with BoJo as currently bookies favourite, followed by Teresa May. Unfortunately, the people who voted out don’t get a say in the matter of the leader for either party.

With the membership of the Tory party at an all time low, it’s just another political appointment. To the winner goes the spoils, but that is the person to be trusted to negotiate our way out of this mess. Brexit is a process, not an event and if I remember correctly Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty only says the two years is to determine the grounds on which any country leaves. And Article 48 says a future Govt. can take us back in. So this is just the first salvo across the bow and it ain’t going to be over for a long time yet.

Oh, and Sturgeon demanding another independence vote in months. Wonder if there will be an EU left for Scotland to join by that time?

Mudplugger June 24, 2016 at 8:29 pm

There would be a delicious irony if Ms Sturgeon led all her loyal Scottish drones into the EU the day before if collapsed into a steaming pile of ordure, taking every last bawbee of members’ wealth along with it – it’s like Darien all over again.
Be careful what you wish for, Nicola – that cosy berth on Le Titanic may not prove as attractive as you think, there be icebergs……

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:13 pm

Problem our Nicola has to resolve is if the UK has voted out, then she has lost the ability to join the EU on the same terms as the UK has at present, as by the time her negotiation comes around we may not be in any more. She will have to go the ‘new entry’ route, which, while not impossible, will be a lot harder to do. If her electorate wakes up to that fact I don’t think it will be as clear cut as she thinks. She also has to persuade the 38% of her electorate who voted Leave. IMO she’s just making use of the moment politically to rattle the cage as is the call for Irish unity. And is she really sure the EU will pay as much to Scotland in ‘subsidies’ as they currently enjoy from Westminster. Me don’t think so.

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 4:17 pm

I suspect you’re right – she’s a canny operator and realises that she’s only got one shot at another independence vote and, if she fails again, she’s ‘Cameroned’.
Chances are she’s just pumping up the rhetoric for her selected audience, as that’s what they would expect her to do. If she were to apply for EU membership and the terms on offer were seriously bad, we could enjoy the spectacale of her creeping back, munching on humble-haggis-pie, and grovelling for some sort of deal, any sort of deal, to be a part of the Independent UK. And then we’d say no, just for the mischief of it.

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 7:57 am

Mixed reports on this question of Scotland. One saying that exit applies to UK as a whole and Scotland and Ireland can’t stay while England and Wales leave. Which means Scotland would have to go the new member route but NI could join Eire, if that is even politically possible.

Then picked up this on Zerohedge this morning saying the Govt already published an analysis in February on Article 50 and it may be that they do have a veto to either stop it or negotiate better terms for each country in the UK.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/not-so-fast-scotland-and-northern-ireland-may-have-brexit-veto-rights

BTW I hadn’t realised that while Gibralter got to vote, the Channel Islands and IoM did not get a vote.

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 8:02 am

If anyone fancies a bit of mischief this morning, Christopher Booker in his DT piece linked to this post by his son Nick, who married an Indian lady and lives and runs a business in India. Tongue in cheek but good for a laugh saying perhaps we should apply to become a territory of India! After all we ruled there, so maybe we should let them have a go. Can’t be any worse than the EU, surely….

https://www.facebook.com/booker108/posts/10154119531146578

Major Bonkers June 26, 2016 at 9:42 am: I have always felt that I have more in common with educated Indians, including Pakistanis, than I do with Frenchmen, Belgians, Greeks, and so on.

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Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:43 pm

So you really think America is going to allow the EU to collapse with all the problems that causes for NATO and give the Russians the ability to become the dominant European power?

Eric June 26, 2016 at 12:41 pm

I perceive at least 5 years before we emerge from the fog of any A50 process and there will be a lot of very angry Brexit voters who in that time have achieved absolutely sod all.
Still they can wave their Union Jacks and St George flags and like those Yanks saying Make America Great Again be completely unable to tell you what they mean by that except the right o have an anti-aircraft gun on the front lawn.

As for Independence Day : sums it up really. A few million people screeching about British values using a popular American film title. You wouldn’t read about it.

The Blocked Dwarf June 26, 2016 at 12:47 pm: A few million people screeching about British values using a popular American film title.

Think that’s the first thing you’ve said today i can wholeheartedly agree with. Well caught that man!

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Eddy June 24, 2016 at 12:16 pm

‘ so I shall be ‘Up River’ for the day’
Lets hope this doesn’t bring another storm down on us!
Raccoons should stay on land, it’s safer.
But it is a great day to celebrate.

Eddy June 24, 2016 at 12:22 pm

I just noticed the new icons, very nice Mrs Raccoon

windsock June 24, 2016 at 12:43 pm

As usual, I’ll reach for my record collection:

Talking Heads – Once In A Lifetime Lyrics

And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself
Well…How did I get here?

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money’s gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself
How do I work this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money’s gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…

Water dissolving…and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Under the water, carry the water at the bottom of the ocean
Remove the water at the bottom of the ocean

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
Into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money’s gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
And you may ask yourself
Where does that highway go to?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right?…Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself yourself
My God!…What have I done?!

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
Into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money’s gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Look where my hand was
Time isn’t holding us
Time isn’t after us
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Same as it ever was…
Yeah, the twister comes
Here comes the twister
Same as it ever was…

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 12:53 pm

Yep bout sums it up.

That and the email I had from a friend this morning whose 2 small businesses went mammary side up this morning as the British Rabbit Pelt plunged to depths not seen since ‘Ethinically Diverse Wednesday’.

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 2:20 pm

they can’t have been very secure businesses then…in fact I’ll go as far to say that I think you’re making it up.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 2:38 pm

You’d be right about the ‘not very secure’ (insecure thanks mainly to the Great British Parliament, nothing to do with the EU) and wrong about my making it up. Fact is the £ has plunged today against the Euro and some businesses have only a small margin of ‘error’ in currency conversion rates. (ie my mate bought goods in Euros and the more the euro costs then the less profit).

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 2:59 pm

Fair dos, sorry for ‘accusing’. He should buy fixed rate ‘future’ for certain amounts to buffer exchange rate shifts: if he knows he will be always using xyz currency and xyz amount he can arrange with most banks.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 3:18 pm: I said ‘small’ but ‘micro’ (around the 20K p.a turnover) might have been a better description for one of them- the one really dependant on Currency Xchange rates so Futures probably (I don’t know) wouldn’t have been an option, and the Business would have died next month or so anyways thanks to gov.yUK.

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Radical Rodent June 24, 2016 at 8:53 pm

Hmmm… 1GBP will now buy 1.37USD or 1.23EUR. Odd, how this “plunge” looks little more than normal fluctuation.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 11:12 pm

To my mind the plunge was more profiteering than ‘normal’ fluctuation ie probably soliding up your pension fund, putting coke up noses and making sure the boss of the BoE got the message.

But I could be wrong, maybe it really was worried-by-Brexit investors seeking to swap their Rabbit Pelts, Cheap tin trays and glass walking sticks for actual hard currency.

And as always a currency softening can have an upside with exports…if we can find anyone who wants to buy off us.

Oh and for those who think Europe is at all ‘bovvered’, Merkel was on the news tonight , i swear, trying not to smirk. I know the Brits think they pay the lion’s share of the EU but in the rest of the EU it is an article of faith, and has been since Mrs T & The Rebates, that the UK sponges off the others ( and before anyone feels the need to dispute that that is the case, bear in mind I am reporting what people seem to believe not the facts of the matter. I don’t know the facts, I doubt anyone does.

Uh June 25, 2016 at 11:36 am

The UK is the EU’s second largest net contributor. Also what would have been the UK’s 200 nautical mile EEZ (containing much of the EU’s fish) is treated by the EU as a shared fishing resource.

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:19 pm

Mrs Merkel may not be smirking for much longer if the contagion spreads. But then maybe she’s fed up of bailing out Club Med and actually it’s Germany that wants out of the ball and chain the EU has become. Now that would be a seismic shift and may see a German pivot to the East and Russia rather than Washington. Would certainly get rid of the shackles. Wonder what she’s then going to do with those German tanks that have gone into Poland for the first time since 1945…..just saying!

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 1:56 pm

But then maybe she’s fed up of bailing out Club Med and actually it’s Germany that wants out of the ball and chain the EU has become

That may indeed be a very real possibility….although my reading of it , and it is only my gut feeling, Germany divides on the EU/Immigration/Bail Outs and just about everything else, along it’s old national boundaries of the DDR/BRD and Bavaria.

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 11:15 am: So then do you see Germany pivoting East towards Russia? If contagion spreads and the EU breaks up into smaller blocs, then that puts NATO into a rather precarious position, currently pushing Russia into some form of confrontation.

With China and Russia building a new ‘silk road’ both in terms of infrastructure and trade, surely the EU countries would eventually, given enough time, become the western part of Eurasia. Maybe that’s what TTIP and TTP are designed to prevent. Keep the US at the centre of and dominant over all commerce and string puller extraordinaire! The largest continent in the world Eurasia would be difficult to ignore.

As usual geopolitics and resources for the foundation of most ‘conflicts’ of all types.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 1:26 pm

The UK is the EU’s second largest net contributor.
as said, it isn’t about facts but perception…as is the entire Brexit thing. A large chunk of the British population, for example, seems to feel that the EU ‘imprisoned’ us or thinks that there will be much weeping and wailing in Brussels at our flouncying out of the playground, like the fat ginger kid no one liked or listened too anyways. Brussels is more concerned about the fat ginger kid’s hot cousins who might follow their brother’s lead.

You’re right though that sorting out the fishing rights is going to be one to break out the popcorn for , then if there is one group of Brits that whinge more than miners, scousers or farmers then it’s fishermen.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 1:27 pm: cousins who might follow their brother’s lead. Edit ‘sisters’ not ‘cousins’…what comes of living in Norfolk too long.

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binao June 24, 2016 at 1:53 pm

Watched in bed until 4.30a, so nothing to throw at the screen when the usual slackjawed politicians were claiming the exit vote was a response to austerity and all the evils visited on us by the Tories. They still think we’re too stupid to understand and to decide our own future.
Sure it’ll take a bit of time to unravel even if there is a protocol for doing it.
My guess is that the biggest problem will be the resistance of the vested interests and the machinery of government; the latter having spent decades driving us down the eu road. And of course the eu’s established distaste & disrespect for referenda.
Can’t help thinking that this was inevitable.
As is the Sturgeon’s next move, however foolish.
Thinking about buying a flagpole.

Nessie June 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm: Don’t settle on which flag to buy just yet. Sturgeon’s on the warpath, determined to remove any traces of blue from the union jack. Kind of ironic when you think about it…

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binao June 24, 2016 at 2:00 pm

Sorry forgot to clear from my chest: the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation, aka Biblical (prophecies) Broadcasting Corporation seems to be stuck in doom mongering role.
Just a view.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 8:44 am: Lord Hall-Hall was choking on his moozlee at breakfast yester-day; still doing so this morning.

“Jairmany calling! Jairmany calling!”

ΠΞ

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Duncan Disorderly June 24, 2016 at 2:14 pm

There’s no plan here. BoJo, Gove and Farage haven’t got a bloody clue what to do now. Gibraltar and Ulster are in the shit already. Scotland will be gone in 10 years. The grand vision for the UK Brexiters had will turn into a just-about-adequate-vision as everything comes apart. Your dream will turn to dust.

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 2:23 pm

…and yet there has been detail for weeks and more so today. Maybe the blinkers should come off now so that you can see the sun! That squint is damaging your eyes…oh, I see, not from the sun but from the sour grapes.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 3:29 pm: That isn’t the sun you can see, it’s the British economy going full on White Dwarf today :p (and yes I know it will, probably, pick up again-most of ‘crash’ is no doubt due to profiteering, to banks doing what they do best, being on that abyss edge between profit and loss).

Still £21 billion isn’t peanuts in anyone’s book….and someone somewhere will have made a killing (as I have to already today selling the remains of my holiday Euros on to Euro hungry Brits wanting to go abroad next month).

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Rossa June 24, 2016 at 3:45 pm

DD! Yes there is. It’s called Flexcit and may even be required reading in the civil service by now. Some of us have been aware of what may be coming and have at least tried to find a reasonable solution.

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86117

windsock June 24, 2016 at 3:48 pm

An analogy for you:

Last night, the Great British public behaved as if they were a child going through the Terrible Twos and threw a tantrum. Now the toddler was given the choice, take your punishment now, or wait til your father gets home. He takes his chance…. but Dad has been fucked over at the office. That toddler wishes he had taken his punishment off his mum. But even more, he wishes he hadn’t thrown the tantrum in the first place.

All this claptrap about “socialistic” states … all run in cahoots with big corporations for their benefit (see TTIP, TISA TPP) and that of their shareholders – not the public (which would technically make them more socialist).

And it will be even worse when we start sniffing Jamie Dimon’s backside.

binao June 24, 2016 at 8:19 pm

DD,
I’m sure you’re right about the lack of a plan, but two things:
First we were once outside the eu, and I’m damn sure if we hadn’t joined the Common Market, we would still have progressed beyond flares, kipper ties and smokey Morris Marinas of that time, i.e. we would have moved on, and will again. As has the rest of the world.
Second, the outers may have wanted out, but the opportunity was provided by HMG, who I hold responsible to ensure there can be and is a workable plan in place for whichever decision we made. What other basis can a referendum be offered on?
Making outrageous and unbelievable scary stories, and patronisingly trying to infer that only thickies want out was never going to be a substitute for responsible government.
Let’s remember Cameron was confident that we’ll be OK outside, and only changed his mind when he was humiliated trying to get special terms.
On the dependencies, because that’s what they are, we should stop pandering to the desire for independence while keeping permanent access to SE of England wallets. It is surely time to say you’re either with us or you go; we’d like you to stay, but if you really don’t want to, goodbye, let’s keep in touch. Here’s some going away money to set you up, but that’s it.
Just a view.

Bill Sticker June 24, 2016 at 2:49 pm

“Sneer at us, scare us, patronise us” Mmm. Doesn’t scan too well.

How about;
“Sneer at us, scare us, scorn us, if you would sink so low”
“But we are the voices of England, and we have voted No.”

JuliaM June 24, 2016 at 3:40 pm

Ho Hum June 24, 2016 at 4:11 pm

Let me fix that for you.

You’re the old voices of England.

Major Bonkers June 24, 2016 at 4:26 pm

Ho Hum June 24, 2016 at 5:07 pm

You vote with your thumbprint?

Before today, I had thought that was something left behind in the dark ages, or practised in foreign lands

Major Bonkers June 24, 2016 at 5:56 pm: I thought that it was more polite than .

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The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 4:47 pm

You’re the old voices of England.

Ahh the thin wobbly line between wisdom and senility.

Bill Sticker June 24, 2016 at 8:32 pm

So, No-one but the inexperienced should have a say? Is that your meaning?

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 9:00 am

Bill has it right. All over I have heard this half-witted suggestion that, as they will be most affected by the result, only the young — inexperienced and almost uniformly ignorant — ought to vote on the matter. Tosh! In every successful civilization, how ever small, the elders have been relied on to guide policy … with good reason. Only to-day’s shallow, celebrity-obsessed ‘culture’ — absurd word for it really — has rejected this order in favour of walking along staring at its collective cell-phone (‘connected’) … and headlong in to lamp-posts!

ΠΞ

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:23 pm: To right and as a lot of people live even longer we have to deal with the present today, not some utopian future. I’m in the over 50 group and if my genetic inheritance is anything to go by (6 in their 90s and 3 centenarians) I may have a shot at another 40 years. So it’s my future, utopian or otherwise, as much as any youngsters.

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Totje June 24, 2016 at 4:22 pm

If other countries follow and also choose for an exit, Germany has conquered most of Europe without firing one shot.
Perhaps one should consider creating a new EEC with the EU-dissident countries?

Don Cox June 24, 2016 at 6:08 pm: In the long run there will be some kind of EU Mark 2, with a properly worked out democratic constitution, and safeguards against the things that went wrong this time. Such as the excessive power of one unelected official, who really should have no power at all.

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Stephen Bayliss June 24, 2016 at 4:39 pm

Now the work starts, on many levels international, national – right down to the family. My children are bereft- they’ve never known anything else and view this as Armageddon. I have to fight down my instincts ( just a tiny gloat would be so nice) and try my best to reassure them. Maybe now we will at last get some of the leaders we deserve, not the self-serving, self righteous, elitist prats we’ve suffered over the past 20 + years. Britain has always been a bastion of tolerance and enterprise in spite of (not because of) those prats – that has not changed and will not change.

Major Bonkers June 24, 2016 at 6:12 pm

From John Milton’s [[Areopagitica]]:

For as in a body, when the blood is fresh, the spirits pure and vigorous, not only to vital, but to rationall faculties, and those in the acutest, and the pertest operations of wit and suttlety, it argues in what good plight and constitution the body is, so when the cherfulnesse of the people is so sprightly up, as that it has not only wherewith to guard well its own freedom and safety, but to spare, and to bestow upon the solidest and sublimest points of controversie, and new invention, it betok’ns us not degenerated, nor drooping to a fatall decay, but casting off the old and wrincl’d skin of corruption to outlive these pangs and wax young again, entring the glorious waies of Truth and prosperous vertue destin’d to become great and honourable in these latter ages. Methinks I see in my mind a noble and puissant Nation rousing herself like a strong man after sleep, and shaking her invincible locks: Methinks I see her as an Eagle muing her mighty youth, and kindling her undazl’d eyes at the full midday beam; purging and unscaling her long abused sight at the fountain it self of heav’nly radiance; while the whole noise of timorous and flocking birds, with those also that love the twilight, flutter about, amaz’d at what she means, and in their envious gabble would prognosticat a year of sects and schisms.

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/areopagitica/text.shtml

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 9:40 am

Thank you, Major. Uplifting.

ΠΞ

Major Bonkers June 26, 2016 at 8:26 am

Thank you, Pericles. I always enjoy your contributions, too.

Whilst writing, please could you explain how you are able to put your own picture on your postings?

Anna Raccoon June 26, 2016 at 11:42 am

Take yourself off to this site Major, upload a picture, and follow the instructions!

Remember that the picture is linked to whichever e-mail address you give them when you upload the picture – don’t do as a troll here famously did, try to come back under another name but with the same e-mail address – so that every time they tried to comment as ‘Anonymous’ a perfect picture of Henry North London appeared. Ms Raccoon nearly died laughing….!!!

Major Bonkers June 26, 2016 at 12:01 pm

Pericles Xanthippou June 26, 2016 at 12:50 pm: Ah, there you are, Major. I was just about to say I’d have to search for how I’d done that — wherefore please ‘bear with me’, as I’m often told these days — but see that a certain raccoon has already answered your question in full. (Merci, Madame!)

Glad you enjoy my ramblings.

ΠΞ

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The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 7:03 pm

Britain has always been a bastion of tolerance and enterprise
Actually one might, with a huge amount of justification, argue that precisely the British trait of INtolerance is what led to the blossoming of enterprise and engineering (the ‘Dissenter’ Schools taught thoroughly ‘unbritish’ subjects like book keeping and math when all good tolerant British boys were learning long dead european languages).

Always amuses me when people claim the British are a tolerant lot. We’re not or rather we are no more or less tolerant than any other people. To answer SpanOws; you don’t get to build a global empire by being tolerant nor libertarian, you build an empire on exquisitely made superior firepower (one thing the British do really well is kill anyone they can’t tolerate), opium, soldiers foolhardy to the point of balladry, opium and G&T’s (No I kid you not, no G&T =no India).

Tolerant? Remind us of the reaction of, perhaps the majority, of Brits when those Muslims started burning Poppies.

Span Ows June 24, 2016 at 9:49 pm

Good comment; I agree re the fire power but also how it was used…and that all changed when rifling came along anyway; yet you appear to be agreeing with me: I never wrote that tolerance and libertarian built the empire. I said the British had tolerance (very much more than many despite what you say) and liberty as traits, which you had suggested they didn’t.

JuliaM June 25, 2016 at 12:14 pm

The reaction of the Brits to Muslims burning poppies was to look to the police. In other countries, it would have been to find a tall tree and a length of rope.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 1:38 pm: The reaction of the Brits to Muslims burning poppies was to look to the police

Exactly. Something like that…has to be illegal, doesn’t it? And i seem to recall there were enough (even on your own notably commonsensical blog?) who would have opted for the lynching option.

Tolerant people wouldn’t have gotten worked up about others burning bits of red paper. A tolerant nation wouldn’t consider some tv-star not wearing a poppy news worthy. A libertarian nation would have applauded those poppy burners for their speaking out, right or wrong.

And, for the ‘Patriots’ among us, a patriot would have remembered that the whole Poppy thing/Help For Heroes et al is an obscenity, allowing as it does, the Government to renege on it’s social contract with soldiers. Don’t pity the nation that ‘UNpatriotically’ doesn’t have a Poppy Day, pity the one that needs one (Yeah sorry, Brecht).

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Stuart Beaker June 24, 2016 at 5:36 pm

The greatest danger to Brexit is now Mr Johnson. He will now try to sit on his hands until the initiative is seized back by the Remainders; he will wait to be told what he can and cannot do, rather than simply state what will be done (starting with declaring our irreversible intentions under Article 50). Once he accepts the pathways given to him by the EU itself, and its allies, he is lost and we are, too. We will be back in the land of political theatre, and the referendum will have been rendered meaningless.

I fully expect that within one year we will, mysteriously, be signed up to TTIP through the EU; we will be operating our armed forces in ‘close collaboration’ with centrally controlled EU forces; that we will have continued to transpose every single regulation and directive dreamed up by the EU; and that we will be ‘about to’ commence talks about talks, to prepare for a time when we might appropriately declare under Article 50. Provided it is at the mutual convenience of the EU Presidentorate. This might even go on for five, ten or twenty years. We will have been condemned to live in perpetually unfulfilled hope.

Don Cox June 24, 2016 at 6:10 pm

That kind of thing is what riots and demonstrations are for.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 6:24 pm: is what riots and demonstrations are for.

Only if you’re French. Brits will do what they always do and just whinge either because we now have more rain than before Brexit or not enough.

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The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 6:12 pm

I fully expect that within one year we will, mysteriously, be signed up to TTIP through the EU

Finally, someone has said the magic word.

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:29 pm

Wow, is BoJo PM already? I obviously missed the news.

There will be at least some semblance of a contest, yeah right, but don’t assume he will have momentum or not. He or whoever else will just be another Establishment political appointee anyway because those of us who voted out won’t have a say in the matter. And don’t we still have cabinet government in this country. It ain’t one man’s show even if TB and DC did try to limit to a sofa rather than a long table.

Gaye Dalton June 24, 2016 at 7:44 pm

For me it has come to the parting of the ways. As you may know, I have always been uncomfortable with that specific lack of compassion for vulnerability, combined with brutal denial of real consequence that people label “British values”.

I have been dreading this vote 10 years or more, to the point where it kept me awake at night and demolished a lot of alcohol. I have never even thought about the objective implications or formed and objective opinion. If I wasn’t a British citizen, and had another home state I think I would consider the British happier isolating the peculiar control culture they, like the Japanese are so dependent upon, where compassion is a weakness and disadvantage is an offence. But I couldn’t see past the subjective impact. I hate Britain and everything about it since I was quite young…again, a value judgement not a moral judgement…nothing about me is compatible with anything British, I get distressed by everything I see in a weekend there. Things you don’t notice but I do, because you are used to them. I wouldn’t even look at the front pages of British Newspapers for decades…

Anyway, I kept my peace before because I had no objective attitude to share…who needs other people’s subjectives? I would be less shaken if I had not come to believe it would be all right after all.

When Britain leaves the EU there is every chance I will lose at least the benefits I cannot manage without (particularly as I get older and my physical help has started failing). I may also lose the right of residence in this country that has been my refuge for over 35 years and this (rented) house that has been my home for nearly 30 and is the only home base I have anywhere. I get exhausted really quickly…being near people stresses me out fast…but I have been able to use this house, isolation and the intelligence I was born with to work around that…but there is no plan B. The below subsistence benefits in the UK would not let me live in similar isolation, and I depend on that to function.

I hear the “the world doesn’t owe you a living” gears beginning to grind…but what difference does that make? I used phone around for hours every day to find some kind help for *ME* so I could function enough to support myself…then I used internet, and the more I searched the more trouble I got myself into.

No chance of an Irish passport on compassionate grounds at present. The current Justice Minister is one of the most chillingly nasty pieces of work I ever came across (before I even knew she was in politics) and I have crossed swords with her clique over corruption in Autism Industry as well as sex work. There isn’t an NGO I could turn to, for ANYTHING, not just this, because they are all so interlinked, and I am one of the few people who has stood up to them. To be honest, I could not force myself to be in the same room with most of them…all I seem to see are the corruption counters falling.

Whatever happens I will not be returning to Britain. However terrified I am of the end, there is little enough left for me now, let alone in mourning the loss of the only home and life I really had. There has never been any hope of more. I have known all of the above 24/7 for years, I am used to it, except now it is real and in motion.

I think I would go out to Syria if I were not too old, infirm and European to be anything but a dangerous liability.

A good friend advised me to force it out of my mind and carry on until the time comes, and that is what I am going to do, comforted by the fact that at least I have two years more than the imaginary children who did not die of imaginary bombs during Ramadan in Syria…and any one of them deserved those two years rather than me…

But it does require the parting of the ways. I have to cut myself off from everything that reminds me of that dreadful place to be able to function

Goodbye

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 8:38 pm

I have to cut myself off from everything that reminds me of that dreadful place to be able to function

I know that feeling, for what it is worth you will be in my prayers.

Gaye Dalton June 26, 2016 at 1:45 pm: Thank you my friend, as you will be in mine.

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Mr Ecks June 25, 2016 at 12:15 am

So basically we –the uncompassionate, brutal English– have been supporting your narcissistic arse for 30 years–but you hate our guts.

Well if you hate us so much why haven’t you buggered off long ago?

Now wait a minute tho–as I read your confused missive again it seems possible that you don’t actually live in the UK. Can’t tell for sure. But if so what is your beef? How will Brexit stop you living some where else you have lived at for 30 years? You expect a pogrom in reprisal? If you are in another country you have had 30 years to apply to become one of their citizens so why didn’t you? Since you hate us so much.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:53 am

If I understood her post aright, she’s a Brit who has been living in Eire for the last 3 decades claiming disabled benefits (some kind of anxiety/mental health disorder?) from the Irish State as is her right as an EU citizen. I think, I hope, she is over worring as I’d guess Eire will sign up to some kind of reciprocal deal with the yUK pretty quickly,long before Art50 runs out, the ties being very close and there’s alot of them here. If she had found refuge somewhere like,say, Poland then she would have cause to worry.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:58 am: Or maybe her UK DLA is paid to her in Eire and after Brexit the UK will no longer be compelled to pay out DLA or Pensions to UK citizens resident ‘abroad’ .I seem to recall The Landlady saying something similar was on the cards?

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Gaye Dalton June 26, 2016 at 2:10 pm

Goodness I had no idea such tender compassion as yours existed in the whole planet Mr Ecks!

I am autistic (you get born that way whether you like it or not), I had the family from hell, and, as a result, wound up with compound PTSD long ago…and from nothing as trivial as sexual abuse, but from a daisy chain of rather unusual cruelties I never bother people with and try my best not to think of. I left home and school aged 13 to try and survive.

I have had disability benefit in Ireland since 2001 after decades of surviving by selling sex, or breaking my health working 18 hour days so I could work round my total inability to network in soft furnishings (which I hated and had no true aptitude for) and computers (which I loved and could do in my sleep) until my physical health also broke.

Unfortunately as a sex worker, for example, it was not possible to apply for citizenship…it did not matter because of the EU…since the threat of UK exit became realistic they have not awarded citizenship to anyone on benefits for years. There is also the fact that I rarely, if ever, had the money it would cost me available.

Now I am sure you feel this is entirely my own fault for being born, or failing that for not embracing covert racism, jingoism, and the abuse of the most vulnerable as enthusiastically as British Values demand, or failing that, not shutting down 50% of my significant intellect and becoming blind cannon fodder…but for some reason I do not find this endears you to me.

I have been fully aware that as I am, I have no right to life by “British Standards” since I was still a child, and that nothing I could ever do or say would change that, surprisingly, this has not endeared the British as a nation to me.

It is something I rarely mention at all, if circumstances do force my return to Britain now I will take a short trip to Zurich instead, even though that terrifies me too. I just explained why I will be removing myself.

I am blest if I can think of a single justification that gives you for attacking me so spitefully, but you obviously disagree, so carry on, I will not be back to read any further installments.

Cascadian June 24, 2016 at 8:26 pm

Look on the bright side, these positive economic indicators happened on the first day:

Scotland is threatening to go-let them. Liverpool is threatening to go-let them.
Londonistan wants to welcome all the gimmegrants-hohohooo.
Liebour is tearing itself apart after realising they have no future-jolly good.
Britains second worst PM is gone, Britains worst chancellor must surely follow.
The yoof vote millenials are unhappy-give them some face paint and craft paper, poor babies.
Limpdems dead, liebour dead, conmen disintegrating.
The EU wants a quick severance–should make for an easy negotiation.
Obama, Gordon Doom, Izzard, Beckham, Merkel et al, what a team! Thank you.

The pound will do OK, yUK is not an exporting nation your GDP relies on churning taxes through rent seekers, PFI, fake charities, hookers and drugs.

Your biggest threat is allowing BOJO the clown anywhere near the negotiation, I discount Corbyn he is done, roll on the next soviet-style living corpse.

The Blocked Dwarf June 24, 2016 at 8:35 pm: First laugh I have had all day, thanks.

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tdf June 24, 2016 at 11:34 pm

Hmmm!

“ICYMI – last month he announced that he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin.
Calling a small defeat for his leave camp ‘unfinished business’, he predicted a second referendum on Europe.

Back then, he told the Mirror: ‘In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.’
And here we are today.
Britain has voted to leave the European Union by 52% out, 48% in and a triumphant Nigel Farage is all smiles.”

Pud June 27, 2016 at 1:31 pm: You’re missing the context – with the government spending £9 million on a propaganda leaflet and threatening all sorts of gloom and doom if we voted out, plus the BBC News acting as if the first B stood for Brussels instead of British, Nigel Farage was saying Remain winning a bent referendum by a small margin wouldn’t solve the question of Brexit.

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Frankie June 24, 2016 at 11:41 pm

Hubris… Camerooon’s arrogant assumption that he could control his own destiny and with it our own has bitten him in the ass. His legacy has turned from triumph to ashes… and on top of his humiliation I think we are far better off OUT! Who is to say those tricky EU dogs don’t come a knocking, offering us a way to get what we want and stay in?

Nothing seems ruled out these days, no sordid peddling is beneath the contemptible political classes.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 12:02 am

“Who is to say those tricky EU dogs don’t come a knocking, offering us a way to get what we want and stay in? ”

I think it’s the other way around. The EU controllers aren’t interested in such peddling at this point , if anything any lobbying to re-run the referendum in return for concessions from the EU will come from the UK side. (Boris struck an interestingly sombre and conciliatory tone in his press conference with Gove & Gisela Stuart earlier). The message from Brussels & Frankfurt seems to be ‘our way or the high-way’. In some ways it suits them just fine that the ‘awkward’ team member has been deemed to have thrown his toys out of the pram once too often (from the EU federalists perspective) and has now voted himself out of the squad. Granted, some sort of deal will be done on trade issues, I’d imagine.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/europe-plunged-crisis-britain-votes-leave-eu-european-union

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:23 am

Granted, some sort of deal will be done on trade issues, I’d imagine.

It’s all about the TTIP.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name

There will come a time, very soon, when the ‘Prison’ of the EU will seem like Butlins in comparison to what will happen under the TTIP…or do you think our “Special Position” (bent over the bed)…oops I mean our “Special Relationship” will exempt us….?

tdf June 25, 2016 at 12:29 am

@TBD, I will admit to knowing very little about TTIP. Do you have a link that explains it please?

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:42 am: No one knows much about the TTIP, not even MPs are allowed to see more than redacted copies of the negotiation documents and that under security conditions that would make GCHQ seem like a public lending library. So no linky, work on the assumption it won’t just be the US economy that will get widened.

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Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:37 pm: The only reason Obama supported Remain was because of TTIP. Then Washington only had to deal with a single point of contact to cover the 28 countries currently in the EU and we wouldn’t have been able to get out at all. Now they will have to deal with us separately, assuming we can get out in time before it’s a done deal. Interesting how Obama now claims that the ‘Special Relationship’ is not affected by the result. Thought he said we had to go to the back of the queue with the begging bowl out again like we did after WWII.

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binao June 25, 2016 at 7:52 am

Yet more R4 doom saying spoiling the breakfast toast. Now it’s claimed we don’t have enough skilled negotiators to sort out escape because the eu has done everything for us for so long.
Just what is the BBC up to?

On a slightly different tack, we haven’t heard much about the I guess 5 million or so mainland workers whose jobs are dependent on the goods, produce and services exported to Britain. Either those jobs will secure the oft quoted 3 million jobs in Britain, or the eu doesn’t care how many workers are tossed in the flames of their project. I must admit based on the handling of the eurozone disaster the outlook doesn’t look good.

Duncan Disorderly June 25, 2016 at 9:47 am

Maybe the BBC isn’t up to anything, and that we don’t have sufficient skilled negotiators, and they will go badly as a result?

JuliaM June 25, 2016 at 12:20 pm

Well, we can always retrain some of our arts graduates & other useless hangers on to be negotiators? I’m sure the EU will be impressed with their reaction to disappointment…

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 12:27 pm

Expressed via the medium of modern dance, I imagine.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:30 pm: *snork*!

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Don Cox June 25, 2016 at 9:21 am

“Just what is the BBC up to?”

They are simply a part of the establishment, clinging on to the twentieth century, when the EU was full of hope and promise.

Michael M June 25, 2016 at 10:25 am

I’m amazed that so many of those leaving comments on a site dedicated to questioning the unthinking expressions of the MSM seem to have been so thoroughly brainwashed by sneering slogans and snide prejudice that has filled the Mail, Express and Sun in their long-running and intense campaign against the EU. What serious content, apart from narrow nationalism and bigotry, is there in slogans like ‘Making Britain Great again’ or ‘taking control’ (of our borders)? The one concrete promise about spending an extra £350m per week on the NHS has now been dismissed by Nigel Farage as ‘a mistake’. Has anyone noticed how the demographic that voted most overwhelmingly for ‘leave’ corresponds with the readership of those three newspapers? Their dismissal of opponents (not so different from calling people on this site ‘paedo apologists’) as ‘lefties’ (for people who think there are better ways to run a society than the ludicrous inequality we accept as normal) or ‘luvvies’ (for the thoughtful, creative people who are the envy of the world) or of anyone with an education or expertise as an ‘out-of-touch elite’ or ‘the establishment’ is just jeering from the back of the bus. Make no mistake, Simon Rattle was right to be appalled at the language of the debate. The ghost of Enoch Powell walks at home, the guest at the feast.
I applaud the attempts of the Dwarf (one of those who at least has some real experience of what the EU is about) to resist the ludicrous suggestion that the soon no longer to be United Kingdom has freed itself from a Nazi-style tyranny. One of my grandfathers fought for Britain on the North-West Frontier in India and in the Boer War, the other commanded a regiment at Dunkirk. My great uncle founded the English Department at the University of Allahabad. My parents were proud that I could live, work, marry and bring up children in a Europe without the borders and restrictions they had known. Having lived and contributed to society as an immigrant (in Germany) I know that immigrants, who mostly pay in far more than they take out in benefits, are contributors to society and consumers who help the economy, not a strain on schools, infrastructure and the health service. Why has the anti-immigrant, nativist rhetoric not been effectively challenged?
There’s lots wrong with the EU. But there’s lots wrong with all organizations. It’s still given me and millions of others so many opportunities. It is a tragedy that my grandchildren look like being denied the same chances.

JuliaM June 25, 2016 at 12:22 pm

Michael M, the attitude you seem to despise so HAS ‘been challenged’. The elites decided it was ‘racist’ to discuss it, and decried those who raised the issue as ‘bigots’, publically.

Remind me, how did that go? What’s that? Not so well?

Oh.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 12:26 pm

I applaud the attempts of the Dwarf (one of those who at least has some real experience of what the EU is about)

Thank you but quite a few of my fellows here have lived and worked in the EU, and the Landlady herself of course only returned to the UK a couple of years back after a long sojourn dans la south of France.

binao June 25, 2016 at 12:32 pm

No wish to be discourteous Michael M, but perhaps you need to read your own piece.
Why do you assume that those disagreeing with you are (a) wrong, and (b) have developed their wrong view because they were uncritically influenced by the more extreme out pourings of only one side of the argument?
Just to counterbalance one of your arguments, I’ve lived and worked on the European mainland (various parts of the UK, US & RSA too) in manufacturing and project management.
I appear to have drawn different conclusions to your own, as have the majority of the electorate despite the overwhelming firepower available to the remain case.
It’s not because I’m stupid, it’s not because I’m fed up with all sorts of other issues, and I’m not impressed with the hangover of a campaign that sought from it’s leader down to label outers as thickies and fruitcakes.
Now that is discourteous.

Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:44 pm

May I suggest you read this article in the Guardian. Underneath all the froth, jeering insults, finger pointing and propaganda in the MSM and from politicos and luvvies as a whole there were real people who basically had had enough as Julia M has said. Might give you more insight, or not.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster?CMP=share_btn_fb

Duncan Disorderly June 25, 2016 at 4:23 pm

The poverty of the people in that article had nothing to do with the EU. The austerity policies of the current government had a lot to do with it. They may hate The Establishment, but they are going to get Boris Johnson, Daniel Hannan and other salt of the earth types in political leadership. The economic problems caused by leaving the EU will worsen their fate – it wasn’t ‘scaremongering’.

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 11:31 am: The austerity policies in the country were decided at EU level at the behest of the bankers and with the full support of Germany and France, the so called ‘engine driving twin axis’ (or should that be axle). We are not the only country suffering under these policies. Take a close look at France, Spain and Italy, let alone Greece and tell me the UK Govt did it alone. Just because the current face of the coin is Tory is meaningless. The previous Govt hardly did any better, perhaps worse.

Then take a look at the ‘shadow banking’ situation. $555 trillion in derivatives with Deutsche Bank sitting on the biggest derivative book in the whole global market. All dependent on the bond market currently in a bubble and sitting at around $100 trillion with at least 10% of that in negative interest rates.

Global GDP (income) is a paltry $78 trillion or thereabouts. Officially debt is ‘only’ $270 trillion, which is bad enough on it’s own without what lies under the tip of the iceberg.

So exactly where do you really think we’re going? How do you suggest we, the taxpayer who’s on the hook for it, can pay this back? What with? Shirt buttons, now they’ve taken the shirt off our backs? Ever had the thought that maybe it’s best to at least try and avoid the iceberg that the EU Titanic is steaming full ahead towards? We’ve launched the first lifeboat, let’s see who jumps ship next.

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Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 11:03 am

I confess to having not confided in it before the plebiscite but am pleased to see that English and Welsh courage prevailed over cowardice. Only just: Project Fear lost because of its campaign; we won despite ours. The Prime Minister’s concessionary speech shewed considerable dignity: for the first time, it might be said, in the whole campaign.

The only thing troubling me is that those presumably about to take over on the bridge — to continue the First Lord’s analogy — couldn’t even see what was wrong with the figure of £350-million per week, something that almost sank the British campaign altogether!

But … we’re under way now. The E.U. is like gangrene: the sooner dealt with, the less the damage. “Handouts it cannot afford”—Mr. Ecks. Should be “Handouts its tax-payers cannot afford.”

Who knows how departure will actually be managed … by both sides? Perhaps the negotiation of Brexit will be concluded at the same moment the E.U. collapses anyway, England — like the M.N. officer with bowler hat and umbrella, during the rescue of his ship’s complement described by Nicholas Montserrat — waiting for the rails to come level and calmly stepping from the one vessel (the E.U.) to the other (the World).

As to the smug élite — whether guardianistas or economists, funded scientists or FTSE100 directors — they forgot the Agincourt factor, the sheer bloody-mindedness of England’s archers. Oyez!

Scotland

The one thing I find really sad (although predictable) is the high proportion of Scots voting for Remain. Nothing has changed since two years ago: I think she ought to hold another plebiscite — without interference from Westminster — and leave the U.K.

When we were conquering the World, she made a mighty contribution — in the military and industry — to that effort. The Empire (its management left to the Whigs) eventually died; and, in any case, most of the Scottish Scots are already living in England: half of them, I think, in the City of London and Met. Police!

As to Mrs. Sturgeon’s idea that she and Mr. Kahn might float off to Brussels on his magic carpet … well, she clearly has no understanding of the rôle of the Mayor of London or the limits on his powers.

And the future of the British Union Flag? I see no reason to remove St. Andrew’s saltire: across the World are states and countries, long dissociated from British rule, whose flags incorporate it … the most ironic perhaps that of the state of Hawaii!

The markets

As The Blocked Dwarf says, most of it the turmoil on the markets is just correction. If you compare last night’s close — stock and currencies, the Cable included — there’s not a significant difference from mean values over the last three months (excluding the last two weeks of intense gambling). The gamblers, following their own perverse advice, had gone all-in on Remain and, tails on fire, were closing their positions in panic.

Meanwhile all the doom-mongers — from academics to politicians to tradesmen to the rating agencies — can be heard desperately trying to save their careers and justify their earlier positions and forecasts in the face of round rejection.

ΠΞ

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 11:46 am

Immigration

How large a part the subject of immigration — and indeed the migrant crisis stemming from the actions of Frau Merkel (who makes Franz-Josef II and Wilhelm II look well balanced) — played in the result we cannot know but it’s interesting that, in the wall-to-wall media coverage of the result, it doesn’t merit even a mention.

I doubt that any businessman using workers from the E.U. and beyond — in anything from fruit-picking to the N.H.S. — would quibble with the idea that migrant labour makes a valuable contribution to G.D.P. What he might find a bit awkward is the effect easy access to the country — a swollen labour pool — has on the level of wages. I was reminded of the importance of this aspect of the campaign by a letter from Frank Field, M.P., in which he enclosed some emphatic articles on the subject, for obvious reasons of particular interest to Labour.

It really is astonishing that, despite it, the party supposedly acting for the least well off has been, at least officially, campaign to sustain the situation: proof, if ’twere needed, that socialism is not about taking from the rich and giving to the poor but about taking from all and giving to the bureaucracy!

Our own fault

Why do we need this migrant labour? Largely because of this ridiculous idea that every-one must go to university. We have all these people with liberal-arts degrees and cannot find any-one willing to work in the fields, to lay bricks — Heaven forfend they actually be asked to carry a hod! — or capable of a technical trade like plumbing or carpentry.

We really must ditch the idea that every-one must be a manager or even a foreman. As an old friend — a Kenyan Asian — used to say: “Too many chiefs; not enough Indians!”

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Major Bonkers June 26, 2016 at 9:51 am

A quite excellent post.

Pericles Xanthippou June 26, 2016 at 12:57 pm: Thank you again, Major.

(All will, I hope, have picked up and mentally corrected my ‘campaign’, in the third para., which should be ‘campaigning’. Sorry.)

ΠΞ

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The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 11:47 am

I have a question for the more legally minded:

Am I right in assuming that I am, at this very moment, an EU citizen ? I know little of international law but I am pretty sure once citizenship has been ‘awarded’ no other country can revoke it? Infact, I believe it is extremely difficult for any state to de-citizen-a-size even it’s own citizens, if doing so would make them stateless?

So IF we are all EU-Citizens now (and I truly have no idea)….we remain EU Citizens even after Brexit, no matter what yUK.gov or dotty Gove says?

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 12:37 pm

It may not need to be be ‘revoked’, but any sovereign country may simply choose not to acknowledge it. The UK Parliament could exercise its sovereign right to declare that it does not recognise EU citizenship and, for example, at the same time allow all currently-resident EU citizens to convert to British citizenship. Those who choose not to do that may exercise their right to live in any other EU member-state, so they’re not stateless.

But, being realistic, no UK Parliament is ever going to act in a way which would create such tensions with its neighbours – the current ‘high-fever’ needs to subside, then they can all get on with making the new arrangements, all of which I am confident will enjoy the level of reason you would expect from a mature British state. This fire doesn’t need any more fuel at the moment.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 1:48 pm

You’re probably right, I’m just thinking that some enterprising Bremainer or Nicky Fish might want to get a ruling from the ECHR (or whatever) that prevents the EU from revoking all our EU Citizenships in whatever deal comes about. Sure yUK.gov doesn’t have to recognise EU Citizenship but that would probably open cans of worms with the UN etc that are probably better left on the French supermarket shelves.

Always assuming we are actual EU Citizens, and as I said, I don’t know.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 3:21 pm

My reading of the Maastricht Treaty 1992 (which created the concept) is that E.U. citizenship is derived from being a national of a ‘member state’. I infer therefore — and cannot at the moment see why I’d be wrong about it — that a member state’s ceasing to be a member would by operation of law terminate all her nationals’ E.U. citizenship.

ΠΞ

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 3:41 pm: You may well be right….on both counts.

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Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 3:26 pm

Having said that, I was just struck by the thought that no organization is as adept at changing ‘the rules’ when ever they don’t fit its instant purpose as the E.U. If for what ever reason it decided to sustain the E.U. citizenship of the nationals of a secessionary state, I’ve no doubt it would find a way!

ΠΞ

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 5:08 pm

A further point — interesting really only from a legal point of view — is how E.U. citizenship (E.U.C.) compares with what we might call the traditional model of citizenship. One is usually a citizen of a country by birth or by virtue of some legal process such as naturalization.

As far as I know, Maastricht is the first time a supranational body has had citizens. The treaty makes it clear that (1) E.U.C. derives solely from national citizenship and (2) only the member country has the authority to prescribe what give rise to national citizenship.

Two things arise from all this: first, in relation to a point raised elsewhere, because of the dependence of E.U.C. on citizenship of a member state the E.U. would — if the treaty, as amended, provided for it — be able, within international law, to strip some-one of his E.U.C. so long as he still had his national citizenship; secondly, because (again as far as I know) there is no such provision in the treaty, the E.U. would not be have the power to remove E.U.C.

ΠΞ

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 6:21 pm

interesting really only from a legal point of view

but interesting never-the-less, thanks for that. So in other words; the treaty means pretty much whatever the EU court of Human Rights decides it means? Your earlier point may well prove prophetic.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 7:15 pm: Not at all, T.B.D. Yes, what ever the E.C.J. (rather than the E.C.H.R.) makes it mean, in line with its standard of always adducing ‘more Europe’.

ΠΞ

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Rossa June 25, 2016 at 1:48 pm

TBD, what a brilliant question. The Queen has already acknowledged that she is an EU citizen, so I would take your question a step further and ask will we revert to being British subjects to our Queen?!

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 2:04 pm

I do hope so. I rather revelled in the fact I was born a British subject, implying as it does that I had no say in the matter. Don’t know whether you’ve noticed it before from my posts but I believe the Sovereignty of this Island was stolen over a hundred years ago by the people the Brexiters want to remove all unelected oversight from.

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 11:37 am

TBD, did you also know that a gold sovereign is still legal tender?

The Blocked Dwarf June 26, 2016 at 11:46 am: No I didn’t, how utterly delightful , thank you .

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Don Cox June 25, 2016 at 2:55 pm

” I believe it is extremely difficult for any state to de-citizen-a-size even it’s own citizens, if doing so would make them stateless?”

Kuwait does it regularly.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 3:49 pm: It does? I stand corrected, although I don’t seem to recall seeing ‘Kuwait’ listed in the Top Ten List of “Countries what give a flying f**k about International Law”.

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Bill Sticker June 25, 2016 at 2:41 pm

The UK is not the only country wanting out now. The Netherlands, France, Finland, Hungary and Austria are all on the list. And those are only the ones that have declared an intent. There’s a wave of a massive political backlash out there of which Brexit is the first foam on a breaking Tsunami.

Don Cox June 25, 2016 at 2:59 pm

Some people in those countries want out.

It is misleading to say that the countries want anything, as they are not people. How many on your list even have elected governments with an official Leave policy ?

Bill Sticker June 25, 2016 at 4:03 pm

It would be more correct to say that there are similar political groundswells visible in all of the aforementioned, plus a few more countries we don’t get to hear about.

On a side note; I take it from your tone that you voted ‘Remain’. As one of the ‘Leave’ faction, I’d be interested in hearing your reasoning.

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 4:24 pm

But that was the status of Britain until Friday morning – the British Government had a policy of staying in but the people rebelled and changed it.
All democratically elected national EU governments are in the same place, until their populace tell them to change to Leave. Ours changed, Cameron left, so it’s a win/win.

Democracy hurts some of the people some of the time – get over it, some of us have been hurting for 43 years, it’s good to smell freedom in the air again.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 4:38 pm

This, Mudplugger, is a problem the Left and totalitarians in general have with universal equal suffrage: it’s good when they’re gaining ground; when they lose ground, they want to shut the argument down.

As Herr Hitler — or Herr Juncker — might have put it: “Ihr sollt unsere Befehle verfolgen!”

ΠΞ

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 6:40 pm

“Ihr sollt unsere Befehle verfolgen!”

More likely to have used ‘befolgen’ or ‘folge leisten’ maybe.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 7:22 pm

Yes, T.B.D., better German wäre ,befolgen’ but — for obvious reasons, I think — I was using diction oft found in the Nürnberg transcripts.

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tdf June 25, 2016 at 7:26 pm

ICH NICHTE LICHTEN! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknnvlcLsYI

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 8:12 pm: LOL … as they say on the Interweb. ΠΞ

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The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 4:44 pm

it’s good to smell freedom in the air again.

Dude, please. You’re beginning to sound like Nigel Smeagol “izz my birthsrights’ Goddamn or the Kevins of the Brexit and their ‘sooo unfair!’ whinges.

It is perfectly possible to be a committed Brexiter without being committable. All you’ve done is exchanged masters not won freedom. That smell in the air is US made gun oil or the remains of last night’s sweet and sour from Beijing.

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 5:51 pm

I agree that we always have masters, but I prefer the sort who can be dismissed when we figure they’re not mastering the way we want them to, and that’s the direction in which we’re now heading. That facility to dismiss is the best shot at freedom we ever get.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 6:17 pm

Whilst cooking the Bratkartoffel this evening, I heard that apparently there is an online poll, with nearly 2 million sigs, already demanding a 2nd referendum. *shakes head sadly* . All this country needs right now is a rerun of the last few weeks.

Mommy, make it stop, I’ll be good!

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 9:18 pm

They don’t understand democracy – no-one told them it wasn’t ‘best of three’.

Ho Hum June 25, 2016 at 9:31 pm

This galoot thought it should be. When it suited him….

Ho Hum June 25, 2016 at 9:32 pm: So angry I forgot to include the URL

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12?edition=uk

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The Blocked Dwarf June 26, 2016 at 12:30 am

Up to 2. 6 million now…dear Lord let grass grow cos the sheeples they is a-multiplying.

Bill Sticker June 26, 2016 at 1:40 am

TBD; I’m hearing rumours that only around 350,000 of those signatures are actually from UK residents.

The Blocked Dwarf June 26, 2016 at 7:44 am: TBD; I’m hearing rumours that only around 350,000 of those signatures are actually from UK residents
Bill, that’s unlikely as it is the government’s own site, you have to register to vote etc (unless they have changed it a lot since last I used it). Not saying someone couldn’t fake it but…
Bill Sticker June 26, 2016 at 4:40 pm: Additional. See Sargon of Akkad’s twitter feed. He has the prime information.

Pericles Xanthippou June 26, 2016 at 7:16 am

Heh, heh!

Jonathan Mason June 25, 2016 at 5:13 pm

Most people are happy enough with a Common Market and economic cooperation. The problem comes when people from poorer countries are allowed to move freely to richer countries and get social housing, free health care, education, and other social benefits. There needs to be some system of controls so that residency permits in high benefit nations are only granted to families that can show economic self-sufficiency or have an employer willing to sponsor them–possibly they need to make a substantial deposit into an escrow account to be held for a number of years against the possibility of them making claims for benefits.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 6:31 pm

Jonathan,

Ok. But the EU has been sold on a false basis from the start. The phrase ‘ever closer union among the peoples of Europe’ appears in the Treaty of Rome, signed way back in 1957.

Whether the UK will truly ‘Brexit’, and whether or not that event will precipitate the collapse of the EU, it is too early to say. My personal view, which is worth no more than anyone else’s, is that the Franco-Germany axis is too tied to the idea of ‘ever closer union’ to roll back. Which will lead to difficult decisions ahead for some of the smaller countries like Denmark, Ireland, Holland, etc. Britain will likely suffer some economic turbulence in the short term, but is big enough to take care of itself.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 6:43 pm

Much of what you say, Jonathan, is almost unquestionable; but I can’t help thinking you’re looking at the wrong side of the immigration debate. (Despite what Lord King, former Governor rightly said, I’ll stick with the word for now.)

Unfortunately — from a psephological point of view — ballot papers don’t include questions on the motivation of voters. Basing my judgment, therefore, almost entirely on what I’ve heard or read in the media, I conclude that the problem with immigration, as far as the electorate is concerned, is the competition for jobs. (By and large, I think, there’s little understanding of its effect on demand for such things as housing, education and healthcare.)

Employer sponsorship — unless run on the American or Australian model, sc. based on there being no available Britons — would not address the problem. The important things are, first, to ensure admission to the country involves above all reasonable competence in the English language and, secondly, to train youngsters here to do what needs to be done (rather than simply funding a holiday for them at a university). To its credit the Cameron administration has taken some action on the latter.

As pointed out elsewhere in these comments, few migrants from either the E.U. or elsewhere are actually a burden on the welfare state, most making a meaningful contribution to the economy in general and the Treasury in particular. For example, I visit more or less weekly an old lady — for whom I act with power of attorney — in a nursing home near Guildford; the home, part of an American chain, simply couldn’t function without immigrants from largely Bulgaria, Nepal, Poland, Portugal &c. What’s more, they’re lovely people and they work like [sorry, Sir, you can’t say that here].

ΠΞ

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 11:55 am

That’s great when you’re dealing with legal migrants. Take a closer look at places like the farms in Lincolnshire and see how high their local turnout was when they voted Leave. Then take a deeper look at the North East or the Bradford area where I live where even the ‘immigrant’ families voted Leave. See anything?

Groups of illegal immigrants housed in poor housing often 8-10 to a room sleeping on mattresses on the floor. Watch as the gangmasters send fleets of vans to pick them up in the morning. And this has been going on for a very long time. And I have direct experience of this. Where I used to live 10 years ago, one of our neighbouring 4 bed houses became a company let. 10 or more South Americans filing out every morning and into the mini bus heading for the poultry processing plant. And we lived in a so called good area. When I finally met the house owner when he came to do the garden, he didn’t even know. His HMO was only for 4 people. The agency hadn’t told him and his insurance was completely invalidated by the deliberate actions of those who used his property for this. As he’d bought the house cheaply because it had been burnt out in a fire, before he did it up, you can guess how he felt about it.

Just a small example but the myth of the lazy British not wanting to work is exactly that. Those who do want to work cannot compete with ‘foreigners’ who will work for £10-20 a day, live like sardines and use up local resources we pay for because they earn too little to contribute. And do you believe their ’employers’ contribute too?!

Then talk to me about how immigrants are contributing to the economy. And before I get labelled a racist. Most local people I know and work with who are first or second generation immigrants from all over the world are facing the same. Even if we had half a million, young bronzed surfer dude types from Australia doing it the reaction would be the same. It has nothing to do with race or religion. It all comes down to money.

Pericles Xanthippou June 26, 2016 at 1:57 pm: Are these circumstances reported to the authorities? If so, are they investigated?

The fact remains that our indigenous labour pool is much skewed by excessive tertiary education and, if some farmers and builders can get labour from crooked gangmasters (turning the blind eye), most law-abiding ones cannot.

ΠΞ

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tdf June 25, 2016 at 6:23 pm

David Lammy, a Labour London MP, has just said that Parliament should simply ignore the referendum result!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-lammy-mp-calls-parliament-8281488

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 7:00 pm

I say: that’s interesting! Here’s a wheeze. The government makes time for a debate on this petition (no need to await the committee’s deliberations), making it a vote of confidence (thereby by-passing the ridiculous Fixed-term Parliament Act).

Conservative M.P.s abstain, leaving Labour, the S.N.P. et al to pass a motion that the House ignore the will of the people. A vote of confidence having been passed, the government calls a snap general election centred on the matter of whether Parliament ought to comply with the will of the people.

Labour — Clegged. S.N.P. — Clegged.

Yeah, right. In your dreams, boy!

ΠΞ

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 7:04 pm: Sorry: the second of those allusions, as I’m sure most will have realized, ought to be ‘of no confidence’.

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Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 8:58 pm

Ain’t that the liebour way? Perhaps he can phone up yUK’s bond holders and tell them they will not be paid because everyone did not agree with borrowing the money, while he is at it.

Look out Venezuela, yUK is going to show you how it is done.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:09 pm

Cascadian,

Given that he is an MP for a constituency in a city that basically funds the welfare bill for the rest of the country, your point makes no logical sense. Granted, the idea of Londinium seceding from the rest of the UK is pie in the sky stuff. But, in theory at least, were it to do so it would be self-sufficient. Unlike a lot of the Brexit voting regions. Funny old world…

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 9:28 pm

A more creative solution would be for Scotland to assume independence, with London as its new capital city, and then rejoin the EU as a single Euro-enthusiastic entity – economically, absorbing tha cash-cow of London is the only way cash-strapped Scotland could survive anyway.
The EU would then volunteer to pay for HS2(b) to connect the two locations, utterly devastating all the countryside between them, as it blitzes its way through all those rebellious Leave-voting areas.
Crazy idea, but those nutters are jointly crazy enough to do it.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:41 pm

I’m reminded of this sketch from ‘Big Train’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEmSjXQHBVg

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 10:48 pm

Interesting idea, Mudplugger. Not only is combination with London about the only way she’d survive: it’s likely the only way she’d qualify — under the rules governing annual fiscal deficit and accession — to join in the first place.

Mind you, we all know, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, how the ‘rules’ can be changed, bent or otherwise circumvented by the E.U.!

ΠΞ

Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 10:50 pm

Let’s sweeten the deal, we will throw in Liverpool too!

Pericles Xanthippou June 26, 2016 at 7:18 am

Sweeten the deal, Cascadian? You surely mean ‘poison the chalice’!

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Cascadian June 27, 2016 at 12:51 am: Depends on one’s point of view Pericles, a great deal for Britain.

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Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 11:02 pm

tdf my point makes plenty of logical sense, the CITY of London may well pay most of the bills for the welfare bantustans in greater London, and the northern gulags (that recently shucked liebour), sure-as-shit Tottenham is a massive drain on the common wealth, along with Newham, Tower Hamlets, et al.
Funny old world, look out Venezuala there is a new kid on the block.

Rossa June 26, 2016 at 12:07 pm

Cascadian, if you knew anything about our history as a nation you would know that the City of London is a City State in the same way as the Vatican is in Rome. Ever wondered why we have a London Mayor and a Lord Mayor of London? And why the Monarchy and the Crown are not the same thing? Watch the Queen having to ask for permission to enter the City. No doubt you think how quaint but all our pageantry and pomp and circumstance is there for a reason. The roots to all this go way back in time to when good ole Henry VIII decided to break from Rome…..see….we’ve done it before.

They may try to take down our institutions and try to take away our Sovereignty (when actually they can’t as it lies with the people, not the state) but then that’s because They rely on peoples’ lack of knowledge. There is a reason why history doesn’t get taught properly in our schools. Mind you it is rather a long one.

Cascadian June 26, 2016 at 5:13 pm: And if you knew the difference between Tottenham and the CITY of London then you would see my point is correct.

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The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 8:55 pm

Merkel had to stop and think for a micro second on this evening’s German News. “We are…*uhm* ‘sad’ *tries not to giggle*..about yesterday’s decision” (Brexit) She was also talking about a ‘fair divorce’ and there being no need for the EU to be ‘nasty’ about it.

Summa, Merkel (and it seems the other EU leaders , if the Dutch bloke is anything to go by) see themselves as the wife whose arsehole of a drunken dole claiming husband has F I N A L L Y left her, and now she wants the Decree Nisi on the table before getting down and dirty with the hot milkman.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:15 pm: TBD,

It strikes me Merkel is doing a ‘good cop’ routine. I suspect the ‘bad cop’ is not, as many assume, Juncker, but Merkel’s finance minister Schauble.

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Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 9:05 pm

“the hot milkman”…………Turkey I assume? That’s a match made in heaven.

On a more serious note, these should be the easiest negotiations ever, given the EU’s eagerness. That’s not to say that someone like Theresa May could not eff them up.

The Blocked Dwarf June 25, 2016 at 10:42 pm

Actually I meant “and they called him ‘Trumpy’ & he drove the fastest milk cart in the wild west”

Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 11:17 pm

The EU wants to get down and dirty with Donald Trump? No doubt while being chased around by the finest British womanhood in french maid outfits (I’m thinking Theresa May, Justine Greening, Mrs Balls) a la Benny Hill.

Landlady get back quick! BD and I need our astaxanthin dosage checked before some serious damage could occur

Mudplugger June 26, 2016 at 11:28 am

Newsflash – delete Justine Greening, not that way inclined apparently.

Cascadian June 27, 2016 at 12:48 am: They like dressup as well as the next man, Mudplugger (see what I did there?)

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The Blocked Dwarf June 26, 2016 at 12:11 am

easiest negotiations ever, given the EU’s eagerness.

the forsaken wife wants her pound of alimony deducted from benefits of the ‘guilty party’, from the JSA of her dead beat husband…no matter how grateful she is that he has finally gotten up off the couch , put on a pair of trackies over those greying monster drink stained boxers and left. Alimony of an amount that will allow her to have the couch professionally dry cleaned of dorito crumbs and beer mug rings.

Cascadian June 26, 2016 at 5:56 am: Then the forsaken wife can negotiate intelligently to “leave as quickly as possible” without recourse to the courts and lawyers or she becomes a harridan and drags this through the courts for ten years while paying monstrous lawyer fees.

If they are serious about “leave as quickly as possible” then the negotiations will necessarily be very easy. As in, you get Scotland and Liverpool and all the windmills, we don’t pay a euro more, and let’s call it quits. Give me your reply within twelve hours.

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tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:13 pm

I suspect they will actually be rather difficult negotiations. The noises from the mainland suggest the EU controllers are going to punish Britain.

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 9:30 pm

Yeh, they’ll threaten not to sell us any more BMWs, Mercedes, VW’s, Renaults, Peugeots……. do the maths.

Cascadian June 25, 2016 at 9:37 pm

How so? Will they stop accepting your remittance? Blockade the chunnel? Cancel their vacations to Clacton or Hemsby?

They will only be difficult if you send numbskulls like Theresa May/George Osborne/need I continue? who do not have the first idea how to conduct a negotiation. Speaking negotiation, I have had a delicious thought, hire that extremist Donald Trump to negotiate for you, then compare the results to what the comoron achieved.

Mudplugger June 25, 2016 at 9:59 pm

If they want to play dirty, Britain should now refuse to send any more payments until the EU has had its accounts fully audited – no government could be criticised for declining to send its tax-payers’ money to an organisation which has been unable to get its accounts signed off for the last two decades.

tdf June 25, 2016 at 10:05 pm: ^ The claim that EU accounts haven’t been signed off for two decades is another Brexiteer myth, propigated by right wing tabloids, some of them owned by proprietors that pay little or no tax in the UK.

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tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:36 pm

Mudplugger,

That’s not what I said, is it. But you seem to be quite blase about the consequences of Brexit – the actual consequences in the really real world, and not the fantasy world of Faragian & Govian sloganeering.

Possibly worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars

Eddy June 26, 2016 at 9:38 am: The Leave campaign was a shambles but then so was the Remain campaign. Mr Cohen’s anger is just the elitist emoting that the wretched morlocs make up their own minds. To quote Churchill ‘The people have spoken, bastards!’

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tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:48 pm

Or even George Soros, who is predicting that the Brexit vote will ultimately trigger the collapse of the EU, but also that the next few years will be v difficult for Britain:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSKCN0ZB0VI

tdf June 25, 2016 at 9:59 pm

Sorry to bombard this thread with comments, but I have read online, and have been told also by acquaintances, that in the UK, the ‘visible’ pressure on services by inward immigration is largely from Arabic, Somali, North African immigrants…..they are not coming from the EU or even from Europe, but have arrived because of ‘old empire’ commitments (one thinks of Kipling’s ‘the burden of the white man’) or for humanitarian reasons.

Is this largely correct, in the experience of posters here? If so, it’s hard to see that Brexit would do anything to change that situation.

Pericles Xanthippou June 25, 2016 at 10:57 pm: Much truth in it, tdf. As I mention elsewhere, the contribution of immigrants, especially intra-E.U., is largely positive. Unfortunately the campaigns — as so many these days — consisted of ‘sound-bites’: all that mattered was that they be catchy and, even if not true, credible.

ΠΞ

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tdf June 25, 2016 at 11:16 pm

Can anyone explain why citizens of Gibraltar had a vote in this referendum and citizens of the Channel Islands + the Isle of Man didn’t? Not that it would have changed the result, just curious.

binao June 26, 2016 at 12:16 am

Interesting perspective from a friend today.
Visiting middle-aged son & family in a well-heeled part of Surrey today, she was asked how she voted.
On hearing it was ‘out’, she was subjected to a rant about all ‘you old people’ who’d forced us out of the eu.
Followed by a claim that now they’ll lose their jobs and have to apply for visas to visit France & Spain for holidays.
There appears to be a hysterical belief that we are about to become a British Cuba to Europe’s (not very) United States.
Oddly though, son & daughter in law didn’t vote.

Cascadian June 26, 2016 at 6:04 am: Tip-bring face paint, kraft paper and coloured felt-tips to all future family gatherings with relatives under 35, it seems to occupy their mind.

Obviously the camoron did not herd these sheeple this time round.

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Pericles Xanthippou June 26, 2016 at 7:15 am: Couldn’t make it up, could you?

Or perhaps you did and ought to be a novellist!

ΠΞ

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Rossa June 26, 2016 at 12:18 pm: Sky News reported that in the 18-24 age group, 36% of registered voters voted (both remain and leave). In the 25-34 age group, 53% of registered voters voted. Beyond 35 years of age upwards it was from 72-85% voted with the highest percentages in the over 50 groups.

If the young were so keen for us to Remain, then why didn’t they vote? Maybe it’s because most of the ones who did are students and tend to do as their peers do. They are the ones now demanding another vote. But as Farage is reported to have said “this isn’t the best of 3”.

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The Anna Raccoon Archives

Anna Raccoon Archives

So if we’re not Remainia, what happens next?