The Pachyderm in the Palliative Care room…
Just as no one would read a ‘Baby rearing’ book until the prospect of parenthood was bearing down upon them – so we all adept at ignoring the literature regarding Palliative Care until we become personally involved in either our own death or that of someone close.
I had thought it axiomatic that the difference between the French Doctors and the English version was simple – the French were more caring. Now I need to rethink that; I realise that I do not know how the French Doctors would have behaved towards a terminally ill patient for the simple reason that I wasn’t terminally ill whilst in their care. The ‘terminal’ diagnosis coincided with my moving to England and having my first scan at my local hospital.
I was shocked at the ‘paper-shuffling’ ‘foot inspecting’ and general discomfort of the Oncologist charged with telling me that the cancer had returned and I was now considered ‘terminal’. She would arrange for me to receive ‘palliative care’. The word palliative conjured up far more terror than the word terminal.
That my first meeting with them was a formal one, to get my signature on a ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ notice did nothing to change my view they they were little more than the ‘grim reaper’ in nurses uniform, and the further I stayed away from them, the longer I was likely to be around. Month after month, they would phone me – ‘Would I like them to come and see me’, and month after month my response would be ‘Who me? Noooo, I’m nowhere near ready for you lot’!
We do, in some far corner of our mind, mostly accept that we will die one day – but ‘palliative care’? I have seen the adverts tempting donations for the ‘angels’ who moisten the lips of helpless immobile objects; who ‘helped my Mother through her agonising last days’; who pad silently round your home in the dead of night dispensing morphine whilst your loved ones sleep soundly – the very word ‘palliative’ conjures up an image of a decidedly unpalatable future before the release of death.
It is a product of the fact that ‘fear’ sells products. ‘Fear’ hitched onto the dread word ‘Cancer’ is mightily effective at producing donations – the life blood of the mostly charitable palliative care services.
Belatedly, I have taken more of an interest in the subject; I now understand that it is not just a woman in a navy blue uniform dispensing morphine – it is a branch of medicine with a totally different ethos. Sadly, it not available for everyone. So closely allied is it to the ‘terrors’ of cancer, that even the NHS run service is a sub-set of the oncology departments.
A quarter of a million people die every year in a hospital bed. Cancer comes way down the list of causes of death. Women are far more likely to die of dementia related illnesses; illnesses which can mean long spells in hospital approaching death in a confused and frighted state – yet palliative care is not for them, not unless they are lucky enough to have cancer as well.
Doctors are in the business of saving lives. Curing illnesses. It is what it says on their ‘tin’. People come into hospital, and the prevailing ethic is that they should be cured; those who can’t be are a failure, an embarrassment to be avoided and not publicised.
Another factor is that Doctors respond to symptoms. “You have these spots? I know just the leech that will rid you of them”. ‘You are in pain? I have something that will relieve it”.
It was Dame Cicely Saunders, founder of the modern hospice movement, who came to the (then astounding) conclusion that the best way to alleviate the distress and fear of cancer was to give the patient pain relief before they cried out in agony.
It sounds so obvious now – medicating before the patient had symptoms that you were trained to cure? It was the complete opposite of the prevailing medical creed!
I was literally forced into the arms of the Palliative care team by circusmtances. I had other things wrong with me; an under active thyroid, and a mass of scar tissue in my abdomen after several operations. Nobody wanted to treat me – the oncologists correctly decided that they were not equipped to deal with these problems – other consultants took one look at the ‘Terminal Stage IV Leiomyosarcoma‘ diagnosis which is printed large and clear on the top of every letter, and simply failed to appear. The message was loud and clear that they didn’t want to be lumbered with someone else’s failure.
Yet the palliative care team, who look on me not as a failure, but as a roaring success in that I’m still happy and healthy on my road to pegging it, 14 months later – have systematically, and pro-actively, treated every problem as it has arisen – even prescribing antibiotics long before I caught the local lurgy that was felling half the village. “You’ll know if you’ve got a lung infection long before the Doctor does, so take these at the first sign of trouble”. How eminently sensible! They encouraged me to learn to swim, at a ripe old age, when I had trouble walking. When I fell ill and had run out of medication, they had it delivered to my door, literally within the hour.
In short, they are not just there for your last dying days – they are a different breed of medicine; a different breed of Doctor. Doctors for whom the only possible failure is that you could be stressed, unhappy, ill or in pain on your way to the exit door.
Which is why I am so mystified at the ever increasing calls for assisted suicide, euthanasia, or as it is now known, ‘Dignity in Dying‘. Last year, the Economist published a report saying that the ‘UK ranked first in the Quality of Death Index‘ – an index which was purely based on palliative care!
Yet the infamous ‘Liverpool Pathway’ and the mid-Staffordshire scandal were nothing to do with palliative care. The Liverpool Care Pathway – intended to improve patients’ last hours – came under fire for degenerating into a tick-box exercise – where staff seemed more concerned with meeting guidelines than administering appropriate care – and was abandoned. Low-wage staff in elderly care are employed on contracts that leave them no time to go beyond performing the minimum care tasks mandated. Mid-Staffs was concerned with the deaths of frail elderly people who didn’t qualify for palliative care since they didn’t have Cancer…and thus had to rely on the ‘compassion’ shown to them by Doctors and Nurses from a different mindset.
Palliative care takes a holistic approach to caring for a person’s physical, mental and spiritual needs – they are brilliant. But it is based on experiences with cancer care, when in fact more of us will die, not of cancer, but of multiple conditions – including dementia – in an extended, vulnerable, frail old age.
Even within the NHS, palliative care is only available Monday to Friday, 9am to 6pm – outside of those hours, you are on your own kiddo.
The argument is not just between palliative care or assisted suicide – that is to overlook the elephant in the room – the fact is that effective palliative care is not available for everyone. Nor is it available round the clock or at week-ends.
If it were – why would anyone chose to die early when they could live happily for longer?
I can see why the idea is attractive to some in government – if you can persuade people that a terrible future lies in wait for them unless they take the ’emergency exit’ option – that is a lot cheaper than enlarging the palliative care service. Or perhaps retraining all Doctors to believe that their job is to care for their patients throughout life, not just to cure when they can.
What think you?
- DavidG
April 1, 2016 at 11:11 am -
All care should be like this!
- Ho Hum
April 1, 2016 at 11:16 am -
As you’ll be seeing, to do palliative care well, you have to be tough. You won’t be able to retrain all doctors for that. Lots of them are ‘hard’ OK, but not all of them are ever going to be able to do ‘tough’.
And it’s tough on the nearest and dearest too. For you to be able to write that after all this time, Mr G must be a good bloke
- Pericles Xanthippou
April 1, 2016 at 11:55 am -
Makes a lot of sense. I think what you’re describing is the difference between a business and a true vocation .
Were I sick, I’d rather be treated by a vet: the ethic is much more in favour of quality of life than of mere quantity!
ΠΞ
- Joe Public
April 1, 2016 at 1:49 pm -
“Were I sick, I’d rather be treated by a vet: the ethic is much more in favour of quality of life than of mere quantity!”
True.
And when they deem there to be insufficient ‘quality’ left, they seldom hesitate to decide to offer to ‘put down’ their patient.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_euthanasia
- Hadleigh Fan
April 1, 2016 at 6:05 pm -
Rather oddly, there is a myth that shepherd’s wives did better in childbirth than others, because shepherd’s had a lot of ‘delivery room’ experience! I wonder if that is true?
- Joe Public
- Mudplugger
April 1, 2016 at 12:03 pm -
My only close experience of palliative care was with my best buddy, but in a hospice situation, and it was brilliant. The ‘mechanics’ of it were pretty good, but the most overwhelming feeling was one of positivity from all the staff there, at a time when positivity is usually in pretty short supply. He was cared for in its real sense, as your current experience seems to indicate.
It’s definitely a very different mind-set from anywhere else in healthcare and you are right to ponder what it would be like of all the doctors and nurses could share that approach. But I suspect it takes a special kind of person to deliver that type of care: I don’t think I could do it all day, every day, for folk with whom I have no connection and when the certain ‘project outcome’ is so disheartening.Keep enjoying the care you’re getting and keep enjoying that boat with Mr G – it’s not called Boaty McBoatface by any chance…..
- Pericles Xanthippou
April 2, 2016 at 10:52 pm -
“… when the certain ‘project outcome’ is so disheartening.”
But, when we consider the alternative (cacothanatos rather than euthanatos), we ought not to see it as disheartening; rather as having helped a fellow sentient being — human or other animal — to reach the end of life in the best way we know how.
For all our vanity we can do no more.
ΠΞ
- Pericles Xanthippou
- JD
April 1, 2016 at 12:09 pm -
My mother-in-law received the French version of palliative care in her last few weeks at home after a belated brain tumour diagnosis. A dedicated nurse who visited twice a day, seven days a week and who ‘gave’ instructions to the GP for increased medication etc. An amazing woman who worked 9 months straight and then took two months holiday to recuperate. Contactable day and night but always in a hurry – I think that she had about a dozen patients spread across an area the size of Suffolk. The local pharmacists were also unbeliveably supportive, as was the GP. On top of that a local lady visited every other day to help with any housework or just to keep mama company for an hour or so. All paid for by the local caisse l’assurance maladies.
- Jim
April 1, 2016 at 12:34 pm -
Thank you Anna. A lovely piece. So much to ponder in this article. The two great points are of course the secular EU driven agenda for the acceptance of Euthansaia as the new “moral” and responsible choice for those who are selfishly not wanting to end it all, and the second is the nonsense that as our conditions and causes of dying change, we do not offer palliative care as a professional part of care across the board, instead of it only being the cancer “Macmillan Nurse” type.
Wish there was a Bafta or an Oscar for Blog journalists!!
- windsock
April 1, 2016 at 12:49 pm -
First I shall speak as a cynic:
“I can see why the idea is attractive to some in government – if you can persuade people that a terrible future lies in wait for them unless they take the ’emergency exit’ option – that is a lot cheaper than enlarging the palliative care service. ” Dead people also do not claim pensions, or ESA, or DLA, or PIP, or Attendance Allowance, or someone else to claim Carer’s Allowance for them, and stigmatising people who are sick, frail, disabled and/or old also discourages them to claim these benefits and leads them to depressive states in which they believe they would be better off dead. I know that is how I have felt sometimes. Which leads me to –
Secondly, speaking as someone with AIDS:
My HIV consultant and my colo-rectal cancer consultant and my facial skin cancer consultant are all, to a man and woman, caring and compassionate and respond to me, no matter how small my query. They e-mail and they telephone and two years ago when I was experiencing a set of weird, apparently impossible symptoms, I was admitted to hospital within 24 hours of a series of blood tests that eventually showed I had cryptococcal meningitis. My doctor pestered me all afternoon (my phone was on silent as I was in a cinema), leaving me messages to get to the hospital NOW, a bed was reserved NOW, and a doctor was waiting for me NOW. They saved my life. He saved my life.
But the thing is, these doctors do not have time to be pro-active, to come around to my house, to prescribe medications in case I feel symptoms. They are all bound by NHS protocols and guidelines that mean they will respond as best as they can whenever I present with an issue, and they do care. But they work within limitations (that have only deteriorated since Lansley’s farcical health reforms… I could give you another stupid story about that!) They have comforted me while I have cried in their consulting rooms and laughed with me when I talk about some seriously surreal situations that have arisen from my diagnoses.
“Or perhaps retraining all Doctors to believe that their job is to care for their patients throughout life, not just to cure when they can.” It’s not the doctors you should be aiming at Anna. It is the system.
- jim
April 1, 2016 at 1:56 pm -
As you say the system is at fault.
As a frontline NHS worker I am no longer surprised by the capacity of many individuals to blame those within it while happily failing to acknowledge the all too obvious restrictions we work under.
On checking my mail this morning I discovered I am being targeted by yet more overseas job offers as are my colleagues
Prepare for meltdown it’s going to get a lot worse
- jim
- Mr Pooter
April 1, 2016 at 2:06 pm -
In the unlikely event that totally effective palliative care became available to everyone, there would still be people who would prefer to die rather than accept it. That would be my own preference at this very late stage in my life were I to become immobile, for instance, or detect the approach of dementia. As for euthanasia, I think a truly civilised society would supply every applicant, say on reaching pensionable age, with the means to bring their lives peacefully to an end themselves, at a time and place of their own choosing, and without needing to call on anyone else for assistance (except when physically incapable). It may be argued that this would be undesirable because it would enable some vulnerable old people to be persuaded to die before their time and of course that would be bound to happen sometimes. But denying a blessing to the many because it would be misused by a few strikes me as extremely unjust. And denying it because of the objections of increasingly-rejected institutionalised religion would be every bit as deplorable.
- windsock
April 1, 2016 at 2:13 pm -
100% agreement.
- windsock
- David
April 1, 2016 at 2:39 pm -
Call me old-fashioned, but telling someone they are going to die, then assisted them in that operation, (palliative care), is it bit like the old witch doctors used to do. They would tell someone they were going to die, often giving them a date, and even though the person wasn’t even ill, low and behold they died on the due date.
There is no such thing as ‘terminal illness’, and people do actually recover who have been written off by the ‘specialists’. A friends mother with dementia was offered ‘palliative care’ a few weeks ago. this involved withdrawing food, and ‘water’. well the lady died in three days, surprise, surprise. What is wrong with the old fashioned,’dying at home in bed’, when it happens, not as a ‘terminal patient’, but as a human being?- Ho Hum
April 1, 2016 at 3:00 pm -
Is all day pub opening in vogue too?
Trouble with that is that it might take a week or more to extinguish your pyre
- Stewart Cowan
April 2, 2016 at 9:42 pm -
Well said, David. There are always doctors’ mistakes, clerical errors, new treatments and of course miracles, so to write off someone as ‘terminal’ unless they’re in the queue for the latest round of Saudi executions, I also find distasteful.
- Ho Hum
April 3, 2016 at 12:52 am -
Sapphira might disagree with you
- David
April 3, 2016 at 10:31 am -
We are now finding out after a study by scientists at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Centre how cancerous cells hide out and remain undetected by our immune system even after sufferers have been given the all clear. We therefore know that all cancer patients are ‘terminal’ even if they have been given the all clear.
If the medical profession have given up, instead of “palliative care”, I would like to see a system of ‘alternative care’. cancer treatments damage the immune system, but after treatments, whether you are given the ‘all clear’ or not, you need to start boosting your immune system. we know that aspirin stops cancers spreading, we know that, turmeric, mixed with piperine , (black pepper), destroys cancer cells, the lit goes on.
The only thing that stops cancer cells growing, is our own immune systems, so “palliative care”is just a nonsense.
- windsock
April 3, 2016 at 11:17 am -
“so “palliative care”is just a nonsense”
pal•li•a•tive (pălˈē-āˌtĭv, -ē-ə-tĭv)
adj: Tending or serving to palliate.
adj: Relieving or soothing the symptoms of a disease or disorder without effecting a cure.
n: One that palliates, especially a palliative drug or medicine.Would you like to reconsider your opinion? Anna is obviously receiving care that is soothing and relieving her symptoms. To describe palliative care as nonsense is rudely dismissive of all those who provide it and those who are helped by it.
- David
April 3, 2016 at 11:26 am -
no one objects to ‘care’, my objection is to “palliative care”. Relieving or soothing the symptoms of a disease or disorder ‘without effecting a cure’. I object to the ‘without affecting a cure’ bit, the ultimate nanny state, ‘nanny knows best’.
I repeat, we know from the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Centre, that ‘all’ cancers are terminal, unless you start to boos the immune system after treatment. So ‘all’ ‘ex-cancer patients’, need pro-active, immune boosting therapy, not just tea and sympathy.
- Ho Hum
April 3, 2016 at 12:19 pm -
Is roast guinea pig a cure for cancer?
- David
April 3, 2016 at 12:37 pm -
The medical profession is now moving over to boosting your immune system to destroy cancers. It is astonishing how ‘in the dark’ most people are about medicine, and their own health.
- windsock
April 3, 2016 at 5:52 pm -
Not really, if you consider the relative timespans of both the history of homo sapiens – 200,000 years and modern medecine 5/400 years at best.
- windsock
- David
- Ho Hum
- David
- windsock
- David
- Ho Hum
- Stewart Cowan
- Ho Hum
- right_writes
April 1, 2016 at 6:13 pm -
I suppose everyone has to go sometime and if not with old age… Of some condition, such as yours Anna…
But my guru doctor bloke (a natural hygienist), who helped me when I was in a particularly bad way with Crohn’s disease, always told me that people get better in spite of their medicine, rather than because of their medicine… In other words, drugs do not “cure” anything, they merely create a diversion.
This rather supports your assertion that palliative is the way to go, even if one is not in a mortal condition.
The problem of course, is that you only get one go at life, as Steve Jobs found out when he tried to treat his pancreatic cancer naturally, we will never know whether he would have lived longer had he taken the pills. I suppose that he lived by the mantra… “An Apple a day keeps the doctor away”.
Anyway… Keep buggering on Anna… Even in your stated advanced condition, you are still producing some of the best blogs in the blogdom.
- Charlotte Walters
April 1, 2016 at 7:05 pm -
The Phyllis Tuckwell Hispice in Farnham is a fantastically happy place. Noooo doom & gloom and I love holding tea party’s at my salon with donated cakes & raffle prizes with ALL the proceeds going to this much needed facility. I believe it costs £15.000 per day to keep the hospice open. The government give something lie 10% towards costs. I too, Amna had the wrong impression of the hospice movement but now I know that the wonderful staff want to see everyone has the best experience and that family members can be assured that the end of life experience was not only pain free but a positive experience for everyone.
My friends mum has been terminal for 7 years and the Macmillan nurses have been fabulous for all of those years. I’m just sorry our government can’t see what most others can but ill carry on having my hilarious parties for this invaluable cause. Stay well Anna.- Ed P
April 1, 2016 at 8:58 pm -
The Hospice in the Weald (Pembury, Kent) is similarly happy and positive. They helped when my wife was dying, as did the Macmillan nurses. She was supported medically, but more importantly, emotionally, by their care.
It too survives on charitable donations – it’s a real charity, not some fake government pressure group like Oxfam etc. (I loathe the fakes, as they trick donations out of caring people which could have helped real causes.)Anna, I second the comment above – you deserve an award for “Blogger of the century”. Perhaps you know how many “out here” love you for your fearless and insightful posts – I hope you do.
- Ed P
- SagaxSenex
April 2, 2016 at 9:01 am -
Been on “palliative care” here in Holland for some months now. Haven’t a clue what it means. I got referred from the dept. treating the primary tumour to Oncology, where I had an intake interview with a nurse/practitioner (I think), then a course of chemo. Now I have had an interview with an oncologist who seems to have a gravitational attraction to his computer screen. I have another in a week or so. Still don’t know what’s going on. But I have no personal plans to check out, sorry to be diappointing, people. It’s rrping and I feel OK, especially compared to the crappy feelings the chemo induced. Of course, being in Holland, I can possibly opt for the euthanasia option. In fact, by imagining the GP coming round with a viscous yellow fluid in a threatening hypodermic, I can check whether I genuinely feel it’s “time to go”. Not yet, thank you. Then again, I have a fridge full of insulin and a hypodermic, so a coma is always only a couple of meters away. Let’s all take a leaf from Clive James’s article in the Graun, shall we, and hang around, even if it does embarass the experts.
More power to your elbow, Ms Raccoon.
- Frankie
April 2, 2016 at 6:44 pm -
‘…What think you?’
I think that ‘your mileage may vary’.
Would that all palliative care be as has been your experience! I think, sadly, that you may be the exception, rather than the rule.
I am glad that you are still knocking out the beautifully crafted blog that bears your name. It is a testament to common sense (mostly)…
Lastly, can it be true that we in the UK are actually doing something as well as the French for once??
Quelle horreur!!
- Stewart Cowan
April 2, 2016 at 9:55 pm -
I can see why the idea is attractive to some in government –
Indeed. Why should valuable hospital beds be filled with sick people? It’s such a waste of resources. Abortion was presumably initiated to stop the dangers of ‘back street’ jobs, so the murder was legalised and the increase in business exponential.
Encourage the old, sick, depressed, slightly miffed, etc., to be given the chance of a lifetime to get killed by the NHS and business will undoubtedly grow, especially with propaganda like it’s a ‘woman’s choice’ and a ‘man’s choice’ (they never ask the unborn, though).
The savings on pensions, benefits, care, etc. would be astronomical.
Why, people could even participate in their own funerals, right up to the departure flight that goes up or down.
- :Fat Steve
April 3, 2016 at 10:45 am -
@ Stephen Cowan ….Both at the start of life and at the end of it (probably through it too if they get the chance) some know or profess to understand the proper price of a life (usually the life of others rather than their own of course) but never think of its value to those who actually possess it for they know better. To me that notion originates in social engineering and a review of history suggests that eugenics/abortion (racial hygenists , such an interesting choice of language if one thinks a bit abour it) has less to do with the ‘right to choose’ but more about restricting choice to those the engineers don’t think should be entitled to it. Much the same I suspect with how and for whom ‘termination’ of life of the elderly SHOULD be approached. The right to choose so to speak (which I don’t disagree with) but genuine choice is a matter of being given equal access and opportunity to options.
Language used in both respects are ‘weasel’ words disigned to elide the truth. This Sobran piece is a useful start to deconstruction of language used
http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/000824.shtml- Ho Hum
April 3, 2016 at 12:11 pm -
@ Fat Steve
You might find this to be both interesting and depressing. If the latter predominates, please avoid cliff edges until you regain your balance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-adjusted_life_year
The engineers are really economists. You can find some of the earliest UK emanations, via Google at,
HERU Aberdeen
CHE York- David
April 3, 2016 at 12:23 pm -
‘Quality-adjusted life year’, was never applied to the Queen mother.
- :Fat Steve
April 3, 2016 at 1:49 pm -
i suppose an inevitability that life for all (but not those in power 0f course) would be reduced to an equation …..course its only physical life with no reference to the voyage of the individuals human spirit throughout life to some understanding of its meaning and of reality …..the approach is not too different from battery chickens really …..one can reduce anything if one chooses to leave out the difficult bits
- David
April 3, 2016 at 2:03 pm -
Battery Chickens, free range chicken, ans soil association Chickens which include Duchy Eggs from Prince Charles
- Stewart Cowan
April 3, 2016 at 6:26 pm -
The language spewed forth by the abortion apologists and fake charities and the media and government (for brainwashing schoolchildren, social workers, doctors, etc.) is indeed devious, but as abortion really is murder, it’s the only logical way around this conundrum.
Having reached the obvious conclusion that the elites running the world hate us ‘cattle’ and think that there are far too many of us, they will find an increasing number of ways of killing us off, yet make it appeal to the masses, most of whom seem too stupid to figure out what’s happening because they’ve been dumbed down at school and via the media.
How many people would voluntarily enter a gas chamber to be conned into “saving the planet”?
How many old folk could be made to feel guilty about taking from the system, even though they have spent decades paying into it?
Some ‘experts’ have called for the legalisation of children up to two years old who have a disability to be fair game for the slaughterhouse/hospital. They want to call it ‘post- or after-birth abortion’, which does sound somewhat more pleasant than cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder. One day they will get it, because obviously, ‘experts’ – caring professionals – will be on hand to murder babies and toddlers whose quality of life is deemed so bad that they would be better off dead. That is to say that the government would rather spend our taxes on wars, ‘green’ projects, benefits for millions of ‘migrants’, etc.
- :Fat Steve
April 4, 2016 at 1:08 pm -
You are not wrong Stuart Cowan.
My son attended one of the better private schools in the UK and the issue of abortion came up for discussion. My son was the only person in his class who identified that there was a potential moral issue to be considered, the others accepting it without further thought. I pass no judgement personally on the issue of abortion but to deny any moral dimension to it is to treat both the woman and the potential life she carries, as a commodity.- Stewart Cowan
April 5, 2016 at 12:09 am -
@Steve – I don’t believe in moral relativism, so I stick my head above the parapet and declare that abortion is wrong. 98% of them in the UK are for ‘social reasons’, i.e. non-medical.
The Establishment has brainwashed people into viewing things, not according to reality, but towards moral relativism – what seems right in one’s own eyes. This has helped lead to a very dysfunctional society which cannot be sustained – it will lead to dictatorship as the only way to hold it together, as there are no longer lines in the sand between right and wrong.
The language games are similar with the homosexual agenda, so they can promote what was and is a mental condition/sin as normal. E.g. a ‘homosexual’ is now a ‘gay man’ or ‘lesbian’. Neither word contains the word ‘sex’ so people disassociate the lifestyle with the abominable acts that can occur within it and it becomes more acceptable.
And by tagging ‘gay rights’ alongside ‘black’ civil rights and other justified causes, they have also been seen as an equally valid group to change society for, but in very different ways than equal pay and an end to segregation. Language has been perverted to the extent that two people of the same sex can get ‘married’.
They cannot be married, of course, because that is strictly a union between a man and a woman, but it hasn’t stopped the legislatures in many countries changing the meaning of words to change society for their own devious, unpalatable ends.
- David
April 5, 2016 at 7:48 am -
Language changes all the time, we no longer sound like our Elizabethan ancestors. Getting married has mostly been between a man, and a woman, or in many places, a man and several women. Most homosexuals have in the past, and still do, get married to a woman, and have children, like Oscar Wilde. Gay Tories in politics usually get married to women, and have children.
Exactly why people get married, is more important, if it is for politics, power, or social standing then it is not a real marriage. There are very few confirmed bachelors in politics these days, Heath was one. On the ‘married with children’ side we had/have Portillo, Hague, Gove, etc etc. - Stewart Cowan
April 6, 2016 at 4:51 pm -
“Language changes all the time.”
No it doesn’t. I watch old films. The language of American films of the 30s and 40s is virtually indistinguishable to today’s. It’s a bit different in British films, where posh people mainly played the roles and wrote the scripts, what, what?
As for marriage, no monarch or government has ever legalised same-sex ‘marriage’ anywhere in the world at any time in history – ever (until the past few years of PC gone mad and then it’s designed to destroy society).
- :Fat Steve
April 6, 2016 at 9:32 pm -
@Stuart Cowan
it will lead to dictatorship as the only way to hold it together,
I disagree . The model that I think is being used is Huxley’s Brave New World rather than Orwell’s 1984. Its that incremental anaethetisation that is afoot ….if you have nothing better to do look at the late 1990s film version of the book which catches the zeitgeist of recent history. I recollect its available on you tube.
As to gay marriage I dislike the change of use of the term marriage also. I don’t have a public view on homosexuality (though of course have a private one) but rather than debase language I think the state (if so minded) should as a consequence of interfering with ‘marriage’ to include the union of two men provide for civil partnership between two people (though intrinsically that in itself starts to unravel meaning and understanding……why not a union of a gay or straight trio?)and leave issues of marriage to non secular organisations. The States only legitimate interest can only now be one of quasi contract …..and the state could quite legitimately limit it to a partnership between a Man and a Woman if so minded though has chosen otherwise
As to moral relativism whilst appreciating its shifting sands but moral absolutism is almost always defeated by the ‘Hard Case’……i prefer the rebuttable presumtion and outcome measure with an acknowledgement to virtue ethics than rigid deontology for issues of morality though to be honest I sometimes wonder just how much of difference each of the methods produces other than in the ‘Hard Case’ - Ho Hum
April 6, 2016 at 10:01 pm -
@ :Fat Steve April 6, 2016 at 9:32 pm
If we had a constitution within which ‘The State’ must contain its actions, then what you say would be fine. But we don’t.
And hence, here, ‘The State’s….legitimate interest’ is never going to be anything more than that of whose votes can be attracted by whichever bunch of shysters want to get into power, regardless of whether it is good, bad, right or wrong, because they will bend over backwards, forwards, or into a yogic crab to please whichever group they perceive most likely to support them.
And right now, however ironic it might be, on issues such as those referred to by Mr Cowan (whose, for balance, arid holier than thou judgementalism irks me no end), pink power rules, and to hell with everyone who might, however peacefully, respectfully, or non confrontationally, disagree.
I admire your high minded purism, but the cynic in me says you’re too hopeful by half
- :Fat Steve
April 7, 2016 at 11:19 am -
Naaaah Ho Hum I am for ever the optimist that reality is benevolent and its a matter of percieving that benevolence and not being mislead by convoluted distortions of it by others. Purism? Not really I like to think though I do flirt with notions that life is a mixture of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ and its a matter of disentangleing them and the notion that ‘bad’ of itself ‘exists’ only because it feeds off good when intermingled with it……personal rejection of the ‘bad’ being the starting point but not the enforcement of ones personal views of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ on others. Its about limits of rights in the lives of others
But enough cod metaphysics and on to the point you make about the state and interest groups. Single issue interest groups are rather interesting, intent on ‘rights’ for just one minority sector charachterised by defining themselves by that issue and enforcing ‘rights’ in respect of it without regard to the views of others. I think there was broad acceptance that ‘marriage’ was the ‘property’ (i use this in a loose sense) of heterosexual couples based on history and that interest was theirs and to be so respected by all and I suggest therefore not to be appropriated by others.
I don’t for one moment suggest that the state should not recognise other unions but it is cultural appropriation (expropriation?) by a minority of an established norm of the majority. Perhaps it shows something of a lack of respect by the minority for the majority.
But History tends to show the ebb and flow of encroachment by minority groups who believe they hold the ‘tablets’ but outcomes indicate otherwise.
Given my speculation as to the nature of reality ‘bad’ eventually has no independent existence once it is set aside.
On gay union (shame I think at this stage to arrogantly appropriate the institution of marriage given its history) lets see if it endures …..if it doesn’t then if i am right that there may have been a measure of arrogance, disrespect for others and expropriation then no doubt there will be a price to be paid. One might hope it not too great though appropriating ‘possessions’ that some consider ‘sacred’ is a dangerous old game …..safer to create one’s own
- David
- Stewart Cowan
- :Fat Steve
- Stewart Cowan
- David
- :Fat Steve
- David
- Ho Hum
- Binao
April 3, 2016 at 11:39 am -
‘hospital beds filled up with sick people’
A Macmillan nurse working with my late wife’s oncologist gave me this advice when things deteriorated after the ‘final’ consultation: ‘try not to call emergency services; they’ll take her in and keep her. Hospital is not a nice place to die.’
Advice I followed over the final weeks.I can’t help thinking that killing the sick is a bit like killing criminals; it might seem like a good idea sometimes but would you want the responsibility for doing it?
- :Fat Steve
- IlovetheBBC
April 3, 2016 at 7:55 pm -
I don’t feel that the desire for the right to end your own life peacefully has come in any way from the government.
They would rather ignore the whole thing – it’s ordinary people who have demanded parliamentary debates and pushed for changes to the law. People feel quite naturally that it’s their life and their right to decide when they’ve had enough of it.
Government want nothing to do with the legal minefied they think it would become. - Peter Raite
April 6, 2016 at 5:10 pm -
My father is currently going through this now, alhtough the cancer that we were told before Christmas would finish him in “months, rather than weeks of years,” now does seem to be taking it’s time.
It is of course worth noting that there is one drug that may be immensely useful for terminally ill patients – for alleviating mental and emotional rather than the physical pain – but it remains illegal:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27716-2004Dec26.html
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