The Taming of the Screw?
Once upon a time, children, in this septic isle, we used to slope off to Sunday School in order to learn the rules of moral transgression. Moral authority was exclusively the preserve of the Church, who denounced sinners from the pulpit and relied on civil society to enforce its rules through shaming, shunning, and the occasional judicious application of the proverbial rolling pin.
Legal sanction was the province of the State, the sanction of last resort – only when the moral transgression had become a criminal transgression. As the church has retreated into a parody of its former self; fretting over whether God really exists, and urging Christians to grow beards to ’empathise’ with Muslims…so the State has stepped up to the plate of enforcing morality.
It was five years ago this week, that I was writing – with horror – of the State encroachment into the area of consenting sexual relationships. In that case it was under the guise of deciding whether the person had the mental capacity to truly understand the health risks of consenting homosexual sexual activity. It was ruled that ‘he’ hadn’t. Nobody, least of all the ‘Gay’ lobby, raised any concerns; notwithstanding that a gateway had been established that many consenting homosexuals would have had trouble crossing.
Six years ago, I was writing of the consequences of Blunkett’s ‘Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003’, whereby a woman was criminally sanctioned for attempting suicide – an act which had been perfectly legal since 1961. She had fallen foul of a previously moral duty not to incur unnecessary expense on the local taxpayers.
That ‘Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003’ was reconsidered in 2013, and became the ‘The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014’ – we didn’t pay a lot of attention. What attention there was tended to fall on the ‘plight’ of forced marriages, and as befits a nation of animal lovers – further strengthening of the dangerous dogs legislation. We barely noticed Part 9 – which reformed the Sexual Offences Act 2003, making the power of that Act more ‘flexible and effective’.
How much more ‘flexible and effective’ we can see today in an anonymous case in Northallerton, Yorkshire. A man in his 40s, who has been both tried and retried, on a charge of rape, is still not considered innocent, for the magistrates have imposed a ‘sexual risk order’ which requires him to notify Police 24 hours in advance that it might be his intention to have sexual relations with a female.
“You must disclose the details of any female including her name, address and date of birth.
“You must do this at least 24 hours prior to any sexual activity taking place.”
One assumes that the point of this order is so that the Police can beetle round to the ‘proposed recipient’ of his desire, interrupt her work or whatever she was doing, and grill her as to whether she is truly intending to consent – one hopes that he has the wit to obtain Ms Alison Saunders’ date of birth and address, so that he can give those details to the Police at least three times a week as his ‘proposed recipient’…..
Sarcasm aside, surely this is to totally misunderstand the nature of ‘consent’ as Ms Saunders would like us to understand it – that it can be withdrawn at a moments notice?
This has persuaded me to look again at the 2014 Act. When the legislation was originally proposed it contained a phrase Orwellian in its portent. ‘Clear innocence’. It was introduced as a proposal to limit the compensation government must pay following a miscarriage of justice.
Article 6(2) ECHR provides that ‘everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law’. The presumption of innocence is also a constitutional principle long recognised as fundamental by the common law.
Yet here was an attempt to divide ‘innocence’ into two categories. ‘Clear innocence’ and mere ‘innocence presumed by tradition because we lost the case’… Following lengthy debate in the House of Lords, the test was abandoned.
The ‘sexual risk order’ is handed out when the authorities have ‘reasonable cause to believe that it is necessary’ – regardless of whether the recipient has been charged, convicted, or found ‘not guilty’ – but because ‘someone‘ – a magistrate, an ordinary member of the public regardless of the fancy title – didn’t believe that ‘not guilty’ meant ‘innocent’ or even just didn’t like the inferred sexual behaviour, and thought it should be prevented.
In a week when a man previously acquitted twice of the same rape is still penalised as not being ‘properly innocent’; baby Poppi Worthington’s Father was named, without benefit of trial, as being the perpetrator of a most heinous crime – with an MP weighing in with the news that Worthington had twice before been investigated over child abuse allegations – no smoke without fire!; and Lord Bramall received the ultimate letter detailing his obscure ‘innocence’….’unless we find some new evidence’; we should have been paying more attention to the attempts to introduce this test for ‘clear innocence’.
Now the Children’s Commissioner, Anne Longfield, is saying that the notion of beyond reasonable doubt ‘isn’t fit for purpose’ and was ‘problematic’ for sexual abuse victims. She would like to see the test of ‘balance of probabilities’ introduced to the criminal courts in sexual abuse cases.
Or ‘More likely than not’.
What price ‘more likely than not’ when you have a defendant in the dock who has already been the subject of a ‘sexual risk order’ – because somebody ‘thought’ he ought to be?
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 11:44 am -
The trouble with the past lack of Sexual Risk Orders is clearly that the offspring of those who should have been in receipt of them are in positions of power and influence today
This is just plain, downright, mad
Got to be money in writing an App for ‘iNformedconsent’ though. “Did you remember to swipe the iDo, dear?”
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 26, 2016 at 11:44 am -
You must disclose the details of any female including her name, address and date of birth.
Entrepreneur that I am , I forsee a whole , new and exciting market for Trans-prostitutes! As long as ‘she’ hasn’t gone got her certificate of gender alignment ‘she’ is still a ‘he’.
- windsock
January 26, 2016 at 12:16 pm -
If he’s bisexual, problem solved.
- leady
January 26, 2016 at 2:29 pm -
Given its “intention to”, emailing the entire local electoral register to the police every day should highlight the nonsense whilst legally covering you for unexpected success
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 3:18 pm -
Certificates are so last century, TBD – we’re in the age of the ‘self-identifier’ now.
If you feel it, you are it. And if you change your mind (about it) you can always revert to whatever it is that you were.I spotted the following on Twitter the other day, provoking some merriment – a ‘women’s sexual pleasure workshop’ described as being ‘suitable for self-identified women, aged 16 years and older.’ There will be a “‘make your own sex toy’ session using everyday items and recycled materials” and they will also learn about “orgasm and ejaculation”… Whether this will be ‘female ejaculation’ or the other, more traditional type depends entirely upon the number of self-identifiers who sign-up, I suppose.
God knows what Dame Janet Smith – all hot & bothered over mini-skirts being worn in the 1970s – would make of it all!
http://www.castlefieldgallery.co.uk/event/womens-sexual-pleasure-workshop/
- Cloudberry
January 26, 2016 at 9:18 pm -
What next! It must surely be part of the comedy strand of their feminist festival. Perhaps someone from this board could attend and report back.
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 9:25 pm -
I read that it was sold-out already! (Er, actually entry is free, although someone must be paying for it somewhere).
You could always try turning up with an armful of ‘everyday items’ – they might let you in! Or better still – self-identify as a ticket-holder.- Mzungu
January 27, 2016 at 7:10 am -
Hahah, self-identify as a ticket-holder. Must remember that one
- Mzungu
- Bandini
- Cloudberry
- windsock
- JuliaM
January 26, 2016 at 12:19 pm -
And then we have the Children’s Commissioner calling for criminal acts to be tried under civil burden of proof:
- JuliaM
January 26, 2016 at 12:20 pm -
(Damn! Hit ‘post’ too soon.)
All of which goes to show that the Great British Justice System….isn’t, anymore.
- Mudplugger
January 26, 2016 at 2:09 pm -
Four errors in one four-word phrase – it is no longer ‘Great’, it is no longer ‘British’ (ECHR, Scotland etc), it does not dispense ‘Justice’ and is so flawed it could not qualify for the implied reliability of a ‘System’.
Bit like the NHS – it’s not ‘National’, it’s not about ‘Health’ and it’s certainly not a ‘Service’.
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 2:32 pm -
OK, Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe was a Scot. I suppose you can argue that that makes the EHCR non British because its inception wasn’t led by some little Englander….
- Ho Hum
- Mudplugger
- JuliaM
January 26, 2016 at 12:23 pm -
Incidentally, where’s Liberty on this? Wouldn’t Shami like to go out on a high?
Where’s the anguished calls for protests in the pages of the ‘Guardian’ and ‘Indy’?
- Peter Raite
January 26, 2016 at 12:54 pm -
This is, of course, thin end of the wedge territory. If you relaxed “beyond all reasonable” for one sort of crime, others will surely follow. Given the sheer idiocy of the new blanket ban on “psychoactive substances” (except the legal and taxed one, obviously), I suspect that drug offences will be top of the list for expansion of “balance of probabilities.” It’s been long established, for example, that someone under the influence of drugs cannot be charged with possession, or – for that matter – that celebrities photographed snorting a white powder can’t be charged, because Knacker has no was of know if the substance is Class A (heroin, cocaine, MDMA, etc.) or Class B (ampehtamine, mephedrone, methylone, etc.).
- the moon is a balloon
January 26, 2016 at 1:00 pm -
But surely Anne Longfield demonstrates by this that she is unfit to hold her position. She should resign, and faiing that she should be sacked. Where’s that golden thread when you need it, the one that used to run through English justice?
- Cloudberry
January 26, 2016 at 1:41 pm -
“She would like to see the test of ‘balance of probabilities’ introduced to the criminal courts in sexual abuse cases. Or ‘More likely than not’.”
I wonder what the mathematics experts behind the research in that interesting link you posted recently (http://phys.org/news/2016-01-evidence-bad.html) would make of the balance of probabilities in these cases, especially when they involve disclosure of a name prior to charges being laid and multiple accusers (e.g. Rolf Harris).
- right_writes
January 26, 2016 at 2:23 pm -
This is the nasty view of the steady advance of “corporate communitarianism” throughout that massive strata of the political/bureaucratic pile that infests our community.
This pile of which I speak think nothing of the moral aspect of living off of the backs of the productive world’s labour, they seem to believe that they have right on their side, and they are so… right, that they justify breaking the market system to replace it with their “better model” aka the EU/UN (agenda 21)…
…Absolutely bloody fine, until every worker is a slave of the government or one of its corporate chums (yes Stuart Rose)… Problem is, if all you have is corporate capitalists and their slaves, nobody will be making/providing anything of any value whatsoever, and we can all toddle off into the sunset in our papier mâché Trabants…
Heaven.
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 2:39 pm -
papier mâché Trabants are so passé
Nowadays, every thinking refusnik to participation in the Great System should think of the plebs being consumed in the fiery red conflagrations of their lithium ion powered hoverboards
You should, of course, reflect, and judge, on the respective likelihood of such outcomes on the balance of probabilities…..
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 10:18 pm -
English criminal justice – from “beyond a reasonable doubt” descends to the sewer of “balance of probabilities”.
Time to remind people Cameron, not the Bliar or Brown, appointed Torquemada Saunders.
- zippgun
- Ho Hum
- MICHAEL J. MCFADDEN
January 26, 2016 at 2:55 pm -
” one hopes that he has the wit to obtain Ms Alison Saunders’ date of birth and address, so that he can give those details to the Police at least three times a week as his ‘proposed recipient’…..”
Absolutely beautiful Anna!
MJM
- Joe Public
January 26, 2016 at 4:24 pm -
Beat me to it, MJMcF
- Major Bonkers
January 26, 2016 at 7:36 pm -
I should also like to propose a threesome with Angela and Maria Eagle – what a pair of stunnas! – with Angela Merkel for afters.
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 8:03 pm -
I’m not sure if I should be most ashamed of
1 the fact that I laughed when I read this
or
2 the next thought was that Keith Starmer, bent over before them, would make a perfect foursome
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 10:14 pm -
Keir Starmer – named after old beardie, no doubt.
- JuliaM
January 27, 2016 at 5:31 am -
/mindbleach
- JuliaM
- zippgun
- Ho Hum
- Major Bonkers
- Joe Public
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 2:59 pm -
Doesn’t society already accept that some people must have their freedoms curtailed, despite never having been committed of a crime? I’m thinking of those assumed to be mentally ill & who may pose a risk to themselves or others. In some cases there will be ‘reasonable cause to believe that it is necessary’ to deprive them of their liberty to prevent a possible future incident, despite their innocence up until this point – an innocence that may well have continued indefinitely. Nevertheless…
I can’t really see much difference in the principle between the potential rapist & the potential nutter being pre-judged, except that we have more faith in those administering the restraints on the latter (medical profession) than on the former (police/legal). The police now seem so scared of their own shadow that I can imagine they’d start dishing-out these orders by the bucket load if they become accepted – anything to avoid the risk of a future complaint of inaction (when someone accused of making an inappropriate sexual comment in 2016 goes on to commit a serious crime 20 years down the line).
But I’m unsure what the solution ought to be when there genuinely IS a real danger posed.
- Jimbob McGinty
January 26, 2016 at 3:30 pm -
“But I’m unsure what the solution ought to be when there genuinely IS a real danger posed.”
Accept that we do not live in a utopian police state where the future can be predicted and all risk and danger can be abolished, and basically just wear it?
Although I appreciate this is well out of step with the current prevailing wind, and folk may need to grow brains and balls before the wind changes. - JuliaM
January 26, 2016 at 3:36 pm -
“I can’t really see much difference in the principle between the potential rapist & the potential nutter being pre-judged,..”
Potential rapist – knows rape is against the law, does it anyway
Potential nutter – understands murder is against the law, but my neighbour’s dog told me he was the devil, your honour.
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 3:51 pm -
Potential rapist – knows that rape is against the law, but no longer knows what ‘rape’ is.
We are now being told – repeatedly – that a tipsy woman can not consent, and that therefore any man (and I think they really ARE aiming only at men here) who has sex with her is a ‘rapist’, regardless of his own state of inebriation (and who cares if she was in eager, willing agreement at the time?). This is not a definition I recognise, but if accepted would mean that in bars & clubs across the land – literally every night – thousands of rapists are on the loose, hiding behind the proffered alcoholic beverage…Potential nutter – knows that murder is against the law but doesn’t believe or understand that what he is doing IS murder. Again, a question of un-shared definitions.
- Surreptitious Evil
January 30, 2016 at 3:16 pm -
Yes, only blokes (but I assume including f2m post-op transexuals) can rape. You need a penis, under s1(a), Sexual Offences Act 2003:
“he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,”
Ignore the first word, concentrate on the last.
- Surreptitious Evil
- Bandini
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 3:45 pm -
Leaving aside my early rant you do make a fair point. And, unfortunately, we’re not really privy to the whole story. Eg, if acquittal was based on something like a defence of diminished responsibility
It would be interesting to know whether or not this outcome might be a by product of either a squabble between the local health and legal resources, and also, even if under some form of medical care, what sort of local facilities there might be for appropriate care, the legal house going for belt, braces and safety if those were not adequate for the circumstances
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 4:09 pm -
At least with the present case we may yet come to learn a little more of the background (accusation, trial, acquittal, etc.). I’m certainly not in favour of the ‘order’ based on what we know about it, but I’m still curious as to what, if any, avenues are open to those in authority to ‘protect us’ from those they claim are ‘likely’ to do us harm.
I understand the perspective of Jimbob McGinty above, and respect the argument that we need to accept a world with risk & danger… but I doubt having a paranoid schizophrenic – assessed by doctors as being highly POTENTIALLY dangerous – being released from a secure environment & sent to live next door would go down too well!- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm -
Sure. And anything that verges towards a diagnosis of some sort of psychopathic disorder
I think that the real problem here, though, for many people, will be that this provides a foot in the door for those who might disapprove of the practices, actions and beliefs of others, to use both the existing legislation, and introduce more, that is designed to interfere with the liberty of others, giving them the legal right to consider that in some way dangerous to the rest of us, just because whatever it is we, or someone else, does gives them personal offence. It’s already there for speech. Roll on repression of personal behaviour
The Americans used to be better at this sort of thing, as ‘Freedom of Speech’ had broadly been expanded to cover behaviour too, but they seem to be well on the way to flushing themselves into the cesspit of not only politically, but also the new morally, correct oppression too
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 5:39 pm -
It’s the ‘foot in the door’ aspect which I find most worrying, Ho Hum. There appears to be a real push being made in the direction of lessening the burden of proof at the moment… very worrying.
- Bandini
- Ho Hum
- Bandini
- Fat Steve
January 26, 2016 at 7:14 pm -
Oddly enough Bandini I am with you on the idea of some cutailment being thought appropriate in certain circumstances.
The sort of circumstances I have in mind are illustrated by the offender in this case BEFORE he carried out the assault in England but AFTER he carried out the alledged rape in South Africa. It was my understanding that Diplomatic Immunity had been claimed over the South African incident but that may be incorrect and i thought perhaps erroneously again he had evidence of ‘form’ for this sort of behaviour.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2069594/Boateng-thought-untouchable–son-privilege-away-anything.html
What is personally amusing is that I was once up against Boating Senior in a legal matter where yes it revolved around issues of race ….my client was clumsy from some perspectives but not ill intentioned and certainly not racist but the stench of Boating Senior’s self righteousness pervaded the Court from the moment he walked in till the moment he left, his Methodist preacher persona being given full rein.
Still what comes around goes around as they say.
But returning to the order in the Northallerton case quite how crass can a Court Order get ? Lets assume he breaks it and gets his leg over with consent? What should be the penalty ? Lets assume he breaks it and rapes ? presumably sentence would reflect prior conduct as it should , evidenced perhaps by the order but breach of the order wouldn’t really be a consideration to take into account but rather the circumstances giving rise to the order that would be relevant- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 8:02 pm -
Fat Steve, the “stench of Boating Senior’s self righteousness” fills my nostrils whenever I so much as see his name mentioned, even when subtly disguised! God, how I loathe the man…
(There are people gunning for him as being a ‘suspected friend’ of whoever it is they’ve decided to ‘bring to justice’ this week, and for once I can’t bring myself to care!)- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 8:08 pm -
Shame on you
True libertarianism is about going beyond even your own personal line in the sand, even for those you like least
Although I have sympathy with the notion that after having crossed that line, burying them might still be a good idea
- Bandini
January 26, 2016 at 8:15 pm -
I feel no shame! None!!!
- Fat Steve
January 26, 2016 at 10:11 pm -
Sadly Ho Hum I am mortal…….at times I probably flatter myself as being sensible ……and I know shame (thank God if there be one).
Libertarianism of the sort I understand is rather conservative and I like to think discriminating ……it would be boring and take too long to explain my views and that is not the purpose of this web site. Anna’s are the only views that are central and properly determine the debate and she is kind enough to let us comment on them. Personally I find them fascinating and she is waaaay more generous in permitting the observations that appear here than is good for her personally.
To not discriminate a you suggest is to surely to accept notions of amorality …..all belief systems being of equal validity. I struggle a bit with that. Should I ? I think so for I worry about outcomes …..for myself and my family …..sometimes, even in my more generous moments, for others and not all outcomes are equal in my opinion.
If you are convinced of Libertarianism ‘nature’ so to speak then I won’t srgue against such a position more than I briefly have above but dare I suggest the libertarianism of the American Catholic Right…..you might be surprised at the cogency of their take on what Libertarianism means which I very loosely paraphrase as Liberty for others through restraint of self .
I hope that if I was Boating senior I would feel shame and reflect quietly on my son’s behaviour and such part I may have played in it ….the poor empty outcome for him and for others…… but then again if Society is libertarian ‘pure’ but held together only by Law and enforcement of them I am not sure that I would. After all its not my fault ….it can’t be if I am a libertarian of the sort you suggest is the only appropriate sort. My Son may behave as he thinks fit and it is for the Law to restrain him if it can. He is worthy of respect not for his views but only by virtue of being genetically human.
You may share more in common with Sister Ritchie than you think and no doubt are are sure as she is that outcomes are impersonal . Gosh you might just be right!!! or not as the case may be
I will try and search out an old Jewish proverb I rather like about the morality of the Father fruiting in the son …..far from libertarian of the sort you suggest is correct but not devoid of notions of personal responsibility that I suggest are at the heart of true libertarianism- Fat Steve
January 26, 2016 at 10:24 pm -
Found the quote
In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential; through our children we reveal our reality.- Fat Steve
January 26, 2016 at 10:37 pm -
@ Ho Hum
True libertarianism is about going beyond even your own personal line in the sand, even for those you like least.
Having spent more time time thinking about this conjecture than I believe it warrants its garbage ….Libertarian as a mindless hollow word devoid of context .
Bahhh !!! Didn’t we cross swords before Ho Hum with you suggesting the NHS cured patients rather than Doctors and Nurses?- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 11:05 pm -
Yes, I remember your taking umbrage with me for once pointing out, quite reasonably and politely, I thought, what I saw as an inconsistency in the way in which you had addressed some issue. If it was related to, perchance, as you might be thought to imply from your comment, some belief on your part that the NHS is not there to cure patients, probably little has changed.
And I think I’m happy to go on not sticking my head in the sand on my side of my ‘comfort’ line when it gets close
But if you want some context that might help as to why that should be so, have a read of a few articles on Spiked. Those by Brendan O’Neill, Luke Gittos and Frank Furedi could be good as starters for 10
Have a good evening….
- Fat Steve
January 27, 2016 at 10:20 am -
@Ho Hum
some belief on your part that the NHS is not there to cure patients, probably little has changed.
Indeed nothing has changed. My arguments about the NHS were rather more selective and sophisticated than you suggest. There is though something of a widely held view that whilst the NHS was a mechanism divised to facilitate delivery of medical services to the public it has become something of an end in itself for some administrative staff who work in it of which I believe you to be one. The Russian term Apparatchik connotes the notion to which I refer of preservation of entrenched interests that come to subsume original purpose and stifle reform
You suggested my comments (and Bandini’s) were shameful ….strong language and convention permits in those circumstances equally strong language in reply. Garbage is, I suggest, appropriate ….possibly well intentioned garbage by you much the same as I percieve in your views on the NHS….but garbage none the less
- Fat Steve
- Ho Hum
- Fat Steve
- Fat Steve
- Fat Steve
- Bandini
- Ho Hum
- Bandini
- Nerezza
January 26, 2016 at 11:53 pm -
In response to Bandini, if someone has been found innocent, they are innocent. No ifs, no buts, no “potentially” a rapist. If you want to punish them for a crime, do them the decency of providing evidence which proves their guilt. If they are found innocent, they should have the same rights as any other person and no stigma should be attached to them because they have been in court. It is unjust to assume that they will commit a crime in the future, therefore I cannot understand this ruling.
In addition, I would also say that when it comes to mental health, there is more faith in the judicial system then there is in the case of the “nutter” due to the unreliability and lack of validity where mental health diagnoses are concerned. People who suffer from mental health issues are no more likely to be dangerous or violent than other people. And even in this circumstance, unless the person has a prior history of aggression or violent behaviour, it is very hard to label them as “potential” risks.Quite aside from that, this rule doesn’t only affect him, but any women he might be involved with. Not only is an innocent man deprived of his liberty and privacy, but any woman who is connected with him is also subjected to the same treatment!
- Justin
January 27, 2016 at 10:59 am -
Pedantic, but is someone “found to be innocent”? Innocence is presumed until guilt has been proven.
- Bandini
January 27, 2016 at 11:27 am -
Nerezza, we’ll have to disagree over whether or not being ‘found innocent’ is always a guarantee of actually ‘being innocent’; in the eyes of the law, perhaps, but I’m as sure as one can be that, just as the innocent are sometimes found guilty, so too are the guilty at times pronounced innocent (or, to be precise, ‘not guilty’).
I raised the mental-health aspect as there seemed to be some parallels with the creepy order under discussion – restrictions on a person’s liberty despite being ‘innocent’ (technically or otherwise). Having had a quick search last night I was quite shocked by what I was reading, in particular the use of what is commonly termed a ‘sectioning’:
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/beingsectionedengland.aspx
The people detained (often against their will) are those ‘thought’ to pose a risk to themselves or others. Those who do that ‘thinking’ and sit in judgement do so far from a court of law. I did a double-take when I read that in the UK the authorities avail themselves of these powers approximately 50,000 times a year…
These powers include the forcible administration of medication, although not – small mercies! – the forcible use of ‘ElectroconvulsiveTherapy’. (Actually, even here there is an ‘unless…’ clause which may permit its use.)
If the patient (prisoner?) disagrees with being forcibly drugged then he or she may – after three months! – seek to have it stopped, although there is no guarantee that their wishes will hold sway over those of the experts.Further powers available include the imposition of a ‘Community Treatment Order’ which might mirror the ’24-hour notice’ in the restrictions it can place on a person’s life & liberty:
“Other conditions may include such things as places you mustn’t go or things you mustn’t do. The conditions must be necessary for your health or safety, or to protect other people or to ensure you receive the treatment you need.”I wouldn’t say I was ‘in favour’ of those powers, the same as I’m not ‘in favour’ of the ‘sex order’; frankly, unless this type of matter personally impinges on my own life I have rather selfishly looked the other way & assumed that those responsible for making the decisions do so honestly & professionally. I’ve buried my head in the sand, in other words.
Now, I’m wondering how many fall accidentally & unnecessarily into the ‘mental health system’ and never escape – someone who had a bad day, reacted badly to being locked-up (as I certainly would) & therefore ensured their further imprisonment… Quite terrifying.- Nerezza
January 27, 2016 at 10:29 pm -
No, I certainly agree that some of the powers of the state are worrying, both in the mental health institutions and in the judicial system. In certain circumstances, I can understand the need for hospitals to section people, especially if they are a danger to themselves or others, but it is a power that should be exercised with great caution and not used lightly. There is a rather fascinating study by Rosenhan, titled “On Being Sane in Insane Places” which shows how difficult it can be for completely normal people to get out of a mental institute once admitted, and how unreliable diagnoses can be, even with identical symptoms. I only hope the system has improved since then.
In respect to the judicial system, I just can’t understand how the courts are allowed to punish someone who hasn’t been found guilty of the crime of which he was accused. It no longer seems to be a matter of evidence and reason, but a ruling of “we think you did it so you and everyone around you are going to pay for it”. I probably haven’t paid the matter enough attention before, but this case is very worrying, and I’m certainly going to keep an eye on the news for cases like these from now on.
- Nerezza
- Justin
- Jimbob McGinty
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 26, 2016 at 3:28 pm -
How can this (the Pre-Nooky Notification) not be in breach of EU Human Rights legislation? Where is the difference between “on the grounds that his pet cat gave him the right to a family life.” and “on the grounds that his petting a pussy gave him the right to a family life” ?
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 5:35 pm -
When Blair, Straw and Blunkett started to corrupt our regular law, their regime also introduced a system of “para” “justice” which now increasingly operates alongside and supplemental to the regular criminal law. This started with the ASBO, which many of us thought at the time was an appalling principal to introduce into our justice system. As is now clear, the despots template which Blair and co created can be used in an almost limitless fashion to let the state do what it wants with anyone – no matter what the “proper” law of the land is, and completely without proper due process of the law taking place.
Studying the wording of the vaunted HRA, that joke alleged guardian of our liberties against an over mighty state , I can’t see how this system of para “justice” and punishment can be found incompatible with its current wording. Naturally, Blair’s heir, Vichy Dave, not only did nothing to correct the dangerous abuses the New Labour government introduced into our law, but is eagerly building on them. May at some point will try to bring in her home office’s Extremist Dispersal Orders EDOs to restrict freedom of speech/censor opinion not actually in breach of the relevant statutes dealing with the issue – and those who rebel against being so censored might then be imprisoned for breaching an EDO .
If the ASBO principle had been defeated in the early days of the Blair terror, the template would not now be cemented into our justice system, as a police state style shadow “justice” and “punishment” system, completely outside the protections, checks and balances which exist within the “normal” one (though these are being corrupted/lost bit by bit as a consequence of the relentlessness assault on our liberties and protections by the current odious political class) . No defense, no juries, no transparency – just the state ‘s minions armed with arbitrary powers and their own subjective opinions free to curb the rights and freedoms of the citizen.
Anthony ‘ kin Blair – damn him for all eternity – truly the evil men do lives often on after them.
- The Blocked Dwarf
January 26, 2016 at 6:21 pm -
Anthony ‘ kin Blair – damn him for all eternity –
I say, steady on! A bit unfair on poor old…
..Satan, having to put up with Blair for all eternity!- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 10:12 pm -
“Will no one rid me of this guitar strumming ninny?”
- zippgun
- Ian B
January 26, 2016 at 7:32 pm -
I think the model is earlier than the ASBO. It historically (I’m a bit fuzzy here, can’t be bothered to do the fact checking and it’s a while since I read up on this stuff) started in the USA in the First Progressive Era with the idea of juvenile courts which have become what we recognise as the “family court”. The argument over there was that people in these courts had no need or right of Constitutional Protections since the court was not a means of punishment, but of helping people, so they were not defendants, so did not need legal counsel or any other legal safeguards. To accept that a person in a therapeutic court should have a “defence” means that you are punishing them. Hence (in the USA as the example), people can be sentenced to arbitrary incarcerations and interventions because it is not “punishment”, it is “help” or “therapeutic”.
It has just gradually expanded over time into wider and wider areas, with a new surge in this Second Progressive Era. Whatever arbitrary interventions such courts should make are not deemed to be punishments, but means of helping individuals or society. This is the mindset. Ideally of course in the Proggie mind, all criminal law would be replaced by such mechanisms.
Anyway, this didn’t start with Tony Blair. We’ve been banging people up, taking their children, placing arbitrary restrictions on them, etc, for more than a century in various guises.
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 9:39 pm -
The NL government took the measures to extend it even more and encompass adults too. EDA’s may be for children as well as adults – we’ll see. Blair started this particular cancer in this country (what the Americans do is their business)- which doesn’t let the alleged Tories off the hook for following his lead.
- zippgun
- The Blocked Dwarf
- Ian B
January 26, 2016 at 6:36 pm -
Some of us noticed. I’m quite sure I mentioned it here in a comment thread. But there are so many bad things to talk about these days, it’s hard to focus on any one of them. Which I’m sure is deliberate.
As I have often said, all this is the Mackinnon Doctrine. Catharine Mackinnon, the feminists’ legalist, put all this together in “Towards A Feminist Theory Of The State”. That is the blueprint. Read it. What we are seeing is its implementation. Its central argument is that liberal legal processes (liberal in the old sense of the word) are inconsistent with feminism, and that the concept of “objective facts” is a male construction, and instead the court must base its findings on the feminine (in fact feminist) subjective. If a woman believes she has been raped, she has been raped. Since it is impossible to truly know what someone believes, in practice this means that if a woman says she believes she has been raped, she has been raped. A conviction must follow, under the Mackinnon Doctrine. And that is where we are going. Fast.
“The balance of probabilities” is not a test at all. It is a posh sounding term for “personal opinion”. It is suited to civil claims, where there are two equal persons in dispute and the court is settling the dispute. It has no place in criminal law, but in sex crimes nobody cares any more.
The other issue here is why the State has taken on moral roles. Anna argues that this is due to the dwindling of the Church. I don’t agree. The trend started a long time ago. As I have often said, current “Progressive” campaigns are the same ones, broadly, as those of the 19th century, a very Christian period, and which were primarily initiated and sustained by Holy Rollers like William Wilberforce, Josephine Butler and in the USA Frances Willard or Jane Addams. This is simply the Puritan ideal of Church and State being a combined force, much like Middle Eastern cultures. This is the social politics of Calvin’s Geneva and the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and needs to be recognised as such.
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 7:16 pm -
Nah!
Holy Rollers believe in influencing others by the practical demonstration of love, because you can’t legislate for others to ‘do’ it. You have to see individuals change
Socialism preaches love for all mankind, but on finding its words of no real transformational effect, eventually resorts to punitive legislation to enforce that, in whatever form it currently takes, in the belief that everyone will be changed, upon which the Red Army will perform Hallelujah for the masses
The former sees limited, mainly localised, achievement through small groups of likeminded people. Sort of like some churches..
The latter, well, you have seen for yourself what an overwhelming success that’s always proved to be…
- Ian B
January 26, 2016 at 7:24 pm -
Depends what sort of Holy Rollers. The Victorian Protestants who developed into Progressives (with the tambourine banging feminists in the lead) were Post-Millennialists in the main, who believed that Jesus would return only when the world was sufficiently Christianised, which meant in practise campaigns to forcibly suppress sex, booze’n’drugs, gambling, Catholicism etc. Their model is as I said the Calvinist Church AS State.
This has not much to do with Socialism, which is an economic doctrine of redistribution. The Socialists and the Proggies have tended to work together on the Left though, because of a common desire to use the State as a tool and suppress individualism. One noticable major faultline between the two groups is that the Socialists tend to see the masses as victims of the bourgeoisie (by economic exploitation and exclusion) while the Proggies see the masses as the victims of their own poor morals, which need correcting by the bourgeoisie. Forcibly.
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 7:56 pm -
Not too sure about your eschatology there.
Most of the non established church evangelicals of the time were premillenialists.
Many of the prominent ones, Shaftesbury, etc, did significant work to help bring about changes in education, labour conditions etc, but ‘heaven on earth’ certainly wasn’t something of personal expectation, nor would have been some form of quasi perfection in precedence of an Amillenialist or Postmillenialist ‘Second Coming’
Not to say anything about the ‘established’ church being anathema for many of them
- Ian B
January 26, 2016 at 8:11 pm -
Post-millennialism was almost universal in the USA (they shifted to Pre- after the First World War, mostly). The pattern is less firm in England, but we should remember that the template for all this is from the USA anyway, in this second wave. The founders of pre-Progressives and Progressives came generally from Non-Conformist (in England) backgrounds, such as Wilberforce whose parents failed to prevent him falling to Methodism, after which he spent his life attempting to change morals by the force of law with his Proclamation Society and its descendants. He also tried to make adultery a criminal offence, note.
It is very pronounced to even the casual eye in the American Yankees. The Battle Hymn Of The Republic is an overtly Post-Millennialist song, for example. The Civil War was seen by many as lighting the blue touch paper for Jesus’s return.
- Ho Hum
January 26, 2016 at 8:27 pm -
American non conformists were mainly Dispensationalists and Premillenialists. Sure, the established church was Postmillenialist, but a lot of people would argue that was the least of their errors LOL
‘The Battle Hymn of the Republic’ is anti slavery apologia
- Ho Hum
- Ian B
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 9:54 pm -
Marx’s own private morals were pretty lax. And the old fraud was smelly too.
- Ho Hum
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 9:52 pm -
No no Ho – you must repeat in Corbynista/Pete Seeger fashion -“Its never actually been tried properly…and Stalin was really a right winger, not a communist at all, and he spoiled everything just as it was going so well!’
- Ian B
- zippgun
January 26, 2016 at 9:47 pm -
What if a woman claimed this dangerous old bat had assaulted her in some way – guilty or not on the basis of belief – must be believed even if it’s not objective fact – ie true – at all under Cathy’s nutzy concept of justice.
Nobody who thinks like this can be considered sane.
- Fat Steve
January 27, 2016 at 10:45 am -
@Ian B
A really educative take on possible background and reasons for the dystopian world into which we seem to be being herded or sleepwalking.
“Towards A Feminist Theory Of The State”. That is the blueprint. Read it.
I will indeed- Fat Steve
January 27, 2016 at 3:19 pm -
To Ian B
I am in awe of your tenacity if you finished the whole of the work,…..in fact even a small part of it. I tried but felt my will to live ebbing away after a few paragraphs.- Ian B
January 28, 2016 at 3:41 am -
Fat Steve-
That’s part of the problem. Mackinnon is such a terrible writer that hardly anyone does read it. Compared to Dworkin, who was a pretty good writer, if as mad as a box of frogs, one paragraph of Mackinnon is enough to make one give up. Even worse, because she’s such a God-awful writer, you have to read it carefully and probably go over some parts many times to properly grasp what she’s saying. I’ve seriously considered writing an exegesis myself to save people the torture.
- Ian B
- Fat Steve
- Ho Hum
- David Duff
January 26, 2016 at 8:23 pm -
“Ms Alison Saunders’ “? Poor chap’s not blind as well, is he?
By the by, terrific to see you back here on full throttle!
- Michael
January 27, 2016 at 1:00 am -
Great analysis and discussion. I would agree that spiritual decline leads to moral decline. Moral decline leads to social decline. Social decline leads to increased authoritarianism and invented political morality as a means of managing (rather than representing) the populace. This, in turn leads to the twisting of the rule of law. As objective truth is no longer recognised, the higher imperative of justice falls to expediency and sentimentality. (Remember Hazel Blears’ statement that “Harassment, Alarm or Distress” in the ASBO legislation meant “whatever the victim thinks it means”.) Hence we see increasing control of the individual’s behaviour by the State, descending, finally, into tyranny. It’s more than a little ironic that man’s desire to cast off the shackles and rules of the past has sown the seed of his own imprisonment.
With both of these stories, it really does feel like we’ve entered a parallel universe where a court can pronounce someone guilty before their trial, or treat them as guilty after a trial has declared otherwise.
One wonders why we need to bother with all that expense and hassle of the court system at all.
- windsock
January 27, 2016 at 9:35 am -
It seems justice is too expensive to deliver and administer.
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jan/26/top-uk-judges-denounce-dangerous-increase-in-court-fees
If you lower the bar, then “justice” gets cheaper. So just change the definitions of justice. After all, we have already gone that way with sickness, unemployment and disability.
Very soon we shall be judged by algorithm. Just like health care, justice will be personalised. The algorithm will take into account your browser history, every site you have visited, every purchase you have made online, your personal health records, your postings on social media, the amount of money in your accounts, your memberships of various organisations from charities to political outfits… plus other numerous online inputs. It will do this whether you are complainant or accused. It will then get to the case and if there is no camera or online evidence the crime has been committed, the balance or probabilities will be deduced from your “character assessment”. It will be cheap – you won’t even have to leave your home!
Welcome to our new robot overlords!
- Ho Hum
January 27, 2016 at 9:19 pm -
I see you grasp the key component of the draft Investigatory Powers Bill
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/04/ukgov_request_filter_in_snooping_bill/
All of your data will belong to the enemy, your government
- Ho Hum
January 27, 2016 at 9:22 pm -
And, in case you don’t believe me…
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/27/home_sec_wants_coppers_to_use_minority_reportstyle_police/
And you would be mad, or at best learnt nothing from the past, if you believed that ‘All of that would need to be subject to “the proper restrictions to ensure privacy and that access and use of data is lawful and appropriate,” she said.’;
- windsock
January 28, 2016 at 9:26 am -
If predictions of the singularity are realised, I do hope those proposing these laws understand that all THEIR information will become available to it and that it will release THEIR information to us all, simply so we can confirm what conniving, thieving, authoritarian and corrupt people they are and we can administer justice – maybe on the balance of probabilities, but probably beyond all reasonable doubt.
(P.S. As a cultural footnote, with regard to this check out David Bowie’s “Saviour Machine”, from 1971.
That man was prescient. But then I would say that, wouldn’t I?)
- windsock
- Ho Hum
- Major Bonkers
January 27, 2016 at 1:34 pm -
I wonder how Silvio Berlusconi would have managed with this Court Order. Anyway, herewith my own list:
Who I propose to have sex with in the next 48 hours:
(1) Myself. I realise that I am not, myself, female, but I shall be using photographs of females to stimulate myself, and they are thus caught within the definition provided by the Court Order. These females include Angela and Maria Eagle (phworr!) and Angela Merkel. The Huffington Post is currently promoting a new and exciting sexual perversion – http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mia-doring/revenge-porns-new-low_b_9070306.html? – which I also intend to indulge in with these lucky girls.
(2) Miss Diane Abbott. I shall, of course, be using protection, being a paper bag over Diane’s head and, to be really sure, one over my head as well. The untoward consequences don’t bear thinking about.
(3) ‘Playboy’ magazine’s Playmate of the month, Miss January. I imagine that she currently resides at the Playboy Mansion, located in California. Looking forward to that one!
(4) The wife of the desk sergeant to whom I am giving this list.
(5) Carina Trimingham. She is the domestic partner of Chris Hulme, former MP, and previously a lesbian until he straightened her out. Respec’!
(6) The Archbishop of Canterbury. Now, I realise that there may be some confusion over gender, but as she seems to enjoy dressing up in cocktail dresses and wearing strange hats, instead of a cassock and surplice, I think she is definitely up for it. I propose to shag her round the back of Aldi, by the bins.
Ordinarily, I would also have included Gildas’ cat, on the basis that it was female and that I intended to have sexual congress with her. Unfortunately the cat seems to have died, possibly as a result of bongo-bongo.
I also intend travelling to Rochdale, as I have an interest in paedophilia. In the old days, of course, I had to indulge this taste by going off to Cambodia or Thailand, or Belgium if I didn’t mind the food, but nowadays my needs are well catered for amongst the Pakistani community. Bring me another, this one’s split!
- Fat Steve
January 27, 2016 at 3:44 pm -
Pax Ho Hum and sorry for missing the joke ….I have always thought I might have mild spectrum Autism
- Ho Hum
January 27, 2016 at 9:23 pm -
Fine. NP. You should hear my family telling me what they think is wrong with me…
- Ho Hum
- JuliaM
January 27, 2016 at 6:24 pm -
I’ll just leave this here:
- Hadleigh Fan
January 27, 2016 at 6:38 pm -
Poor bloomin’ Irshad – if he was in Rotherham he could have got away with it. Oh, hang on, he has!
- Bandini
January 27, 2016 at 6:57 pm -
It’ll be interesting to see how his employers handle it, what with him being suspended since November 2014.
Could he theoretically be re-instated, break the terms of the restraining order, and be sent to arrest himself?!? It highlights the problems in having a quasi-judicial system running in parallel to the ‘real’ one, I suppose. - Nerezza
January 27, 2016 at 10:35 pm -
This is just ridiculous…
I am officially despairing in humanity. I’m going to watch a 2 hour clip of kittens on YouTube. I’ll be right back…
- Hadleigh Fan
- Ms Mildred
January 28, 2016 at 1:12 pm -
We have the latest hoo ha about the word BUNCH. During a petulant rant Mr C, using that dreadful word. The shock horror mob are in full voice. The Americans apply it to all sorts of groups of things. We mainly apply the word florally. There is rampant effing and blinding in the high street shrivelling my ears, but BUNCH is off limits when applied to camping potential immigrants. Now you are guilty as accused and still quilty when found innocent. Big feminist sisters wants bloke’s every sexy move documented!!!!Some poor old general has to spend the rest of the few years left to him wondering when the police will come to his doorstep again, to search his house from cellar to attic, for ‘evidence’ of a fanciful crimes supposed to have happened ages ago. We are in the middle of an inqisition/witch hunt era. They were ingnorant bigots, so I wonder what to label some of those who now dwell among us, and get their own way to bully and harrass and distort the law? A BUNCH of***!?
- Ho Hum
January 27, 2016 at 10:48 am -
My original reply was directed entirely to Bandini. Unfortunately it fell victim to this platform’s tendency to misplace replies made from a mobile device
I had thought that that would have been clear, given its context, and I had even added a smiley to make sure that it was clearly intended to be humerous. I was born with a sideways squint on life, but I do so hate having to explain my jokes…
And I really really hate that written material often seems to arrive at the reader with some tone that is completely different to that which accompanied it when it left here
Meantime let’s agree to agree that we both continue to litter forums with our own forms of garbage..
Have a good day
- Bandini
January 27, 2016 at 11:38 am -
And I took it on the chin, Ho Hum! No need to get into a scrap, and certainly not over bloody ‘Lord’ Boateng!
(In one of those curious coincidences I randomly clicked on a YouTube ‘The Day Today’ video before retiring last night; who should pop up but the awful man himself – tempting me to put my foot through the laptop screen – falling prey to Chris Morris’ spoof-interview schtick. Aaaargh, what a way to head of to bed, his bleeding face taunting me!)
- Ho Hum
January 27, 2016 at 12:32 pm -
@ Bandini January 27, 2016 at 11:38 am
So I noticed. And you made me laugh too…
Scrap? Moi? It is so hard at times to convey the tone of one’s intent in writing. Those who can do that well have my undying admiration. So think of it more as trying very hard…… LOL
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12%3A18&version=NIV
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