A Declaration of Independence
I wish to live as a free man in a free country.
I wish to live under the rule of laws created by elected politicians, who I can hold to account and vote for, or against, as is my right, without fear or intimidation.
I wish to live free to practice my religion, or no religion, without fear of retribution.
I wish to be free to eat the foods which I choose to eat, and alcohol or smoke cigarettes if I so wish.
I wish to be free to choose who I might ask to take my hand in matrimony, and for that person to be free to accept or decline that offer as they in turn shall choose.
I wish to enjoy music and dance, if I should wish to.
I wish to live in a country which promotes literature, art and science.
I wish to live in a country in which people are free to express their sexuality whether, gay straight or however, without being tortured or executed.
I wish to live in a country which is, as far as possible, free from sectarianism and sectarian violence.
I wish to live in an open society where people are free to imagine, write, think, question and debate.
I have listened, read and watched all the various forms of news media over the past week. I have come to one clear, and actually rather startling conclusion. I will vote to leave the European Union. I say that this is startling as I have always been a great believer in the benefits that European Union has clearly had in some ways. I would love to have spent some time, like our landlady, living in France. I would rather break bread with a Frenchman or a German than fight them, as my ancestors had to do. I regard it as a positive good that London is now the fourth largest “French” city in terms of population. This brings culture, versatility, skill, style and ideas.
However, the Europe Union’s feeble response to the mass migration of peoples from Africa and the Middle East has convinced me. I believe that mass migration – for that is what it is – threatens all of the values I have set out above. Note that I referred to values. I did not mention housing, services, or standard of living. Those things are important, they are good, but these values are more important, and without them society cannot prosper anyway.
I am very sad that little boy and his mother and brother drowned. Indeed, if someone from this country wants to adopt and care for an orphan from a refugee camp and bring them up as their own and pay for their care and keep – I say, congratulations, you are a good soul. But if people seriously imagine that the present lax system which Germany is adopting and which others suggests we should adopt here is going to end in anything but woeful calamity, they are at best deluded.
Very large numbers, I would say the majority, of those migrating, travelling, seeking asylum, call it what you will, are not women and children. They are young men. They are young men from Islamic societies, and I do not regard the prevailing political culture of those countries as being compatible with the values I have set out above. They are the provinces of religious intolerance, cruel theocracy, sectarianism, cruelty, and hysteria. Did you see that bloke in Hungary hurling himself – and wife his child – onto railway tracks and screaming that he would rather a train ran them over than go to a reception camp? That isn’t seeking refugee status; it’s hysteria over a lifestyle choice.
And as Dominic Lawson argued in a thoughtful and balanced article in the Sunday Times, if you really want to help Syria, one of the best things to do would be to build and finance a sort of proxy Syria, a Syria-in-waiting which will be ready to help resurrect the country if and when the civil war is over. Britain has indeed rightly given very large amounts in aid to establish camps with safe and healthy conditions, and I have no problem with Britain doing more or, if any individual citizen wishes to donate their own, personal time and money and resources – good on them. That’s super.
But is it a proper response to adopt a guilt-ridden, holier-than-thou, self-destructive policy which is neither practical nor moral. Lawson quotes the economist Sir Paul Collier in his book “Exodus: Immigration and Multiculturalism in the 21st Century.” He says that Germany’s stance “is not just foolish, it is also deeply immoral. Europe has a duty to fish refugees out of the sea because it is morally responsible for tempting them into the sea. So, whatever else Europe does, it must stop this policy of temptation. Paying a crook thousands of dollars for a place on a boat should not entitle a Syrian refugee to a more privileged entry into Europe. It is profoundly unfair to the other suffering refugees.”
The final straw came when I pondered the quota system which Germany wants the EU to adopt. Who, it occurred to me, is the German Chancellor to tell me who I must agree to live in my country, and how many? Germany can bring itself to its own destruction with its own mad catharsis of collective guilt for the sins of its grandparents. I do not want this country to go with it.
So, I am afraid, it’s goodbye. I will vote for an exit, and for any political party which promises and delivers on control of Britain’s borders. This is more important now than a temporary dip in GDP, or a recession. It is about the survival of the values that make Britain a good place.
Germany can go to its collective hell in a handcart, although given its past history there may be some twists and turns along the way. I, however, do not wish Britain to follow suit.
Sigillum
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September 7, 2015 at 9:11 am -
Just look at some of the videos coming out of Kos and Lesbos. Terrifying. Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans fighting each other. Every day. The place is trashed and locals cannot leave their homes.
Take families and for once Cameron was right – take them from UN camps. We are more likely to know who they are. But taking tens of thousands of undocumented young men? You are welcome Germany.-
September 7, 2015 at 11:50 am -
Funny that. My son has just come back from Kos and reports that the refugees/migrants were no trouble at all.
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September 7, 2015 at 2:09 pm -
Some very good friends of mine have just done the same. They said the only real problem was gawkers trying to photograph the migrants.
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September 7, 2015 at 5:17 pm -
So thy didn’t see any of this then?
Copy & paste into browser..
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September 7, 2015 at 7:19 pm -
And this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FULPGw3maFs
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September 8, 2015 at 2:02 am -
That’s the one I saw. There are plenty more. I would be most surprised if there were ‘no trouble at all’ when refugees outnumber local inhabitants and the country is effectively bankrupt.
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September 8, 2015 at 10:34 am -
I think they would have mentioned anything so dramatic.
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September 7, 2015 at 9:16 am -
I share your sentiments, Sigillum. I think that one lesson history teaches us is that Britain is at it’s best, both for it’s own citizens and for the wider world, when it is at it’s most free. We have given many useful and good concepts to the wider world – a system of Law based on natural justice and accumulated experience, trade regulated under that system of law, the freedom to enquire into science and the wider world, many useful practical inventions, and the freedom to express thoughts and ideas through writing and the arts.
If Britain maintains it’s freedom, it could yet give more to make the world a better place. If Britain surrenders it’s freedom, it’s scope to contribute could be severly curtailed.
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September 7, 2015 at 9:21 am -
Well said, Engineer
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September 7, 2015 at 9:39 am -
Thank you, Gildas.
I should have added that our freedoms were hard-won, and took many centuries to evolve. Within living memory, we’ve had to defend freedom against great evils, and at huge cost in Blood and Treasure. In our darkest hour, the nations of the English-speaking world and the Commonwealth stood along side us, and bore their share of the cost. We should not turn our backs on our natural friends and allies.
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September 7, 2015 at 11:07 pm -
In our darkest hour, the nations of the English-speaking world and the Commonwealth stood along side us, and bore their share of the cost. We should not turn our backs on our natural friends and allies.
Too late for that I’m afraid, should you decide to leave the EU you will find very little support from your previously deserted friends.
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September 7, 2015 at 11:57 am -
Ditto.
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September 7, 2015 at 9:21 am -
From what I have heard from friends in Germany, the average German is far from happy with their government’s new stance either.
Much as I loathe to say so, this article by Peter Hitchens in the Daily Mail sums up my feelings exactly – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3223828/PETER-HITCHENS-won-t-save-refugees-destroying-country.html
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September 7, 2015 at 9:46 am -
I read that article. I share your sentiments exactly. Even though I think Peter Hitchens is bonkers, on this – I completely agree with what he had to say
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September 7, 2015 at 9:28 am -
this article puts into words my own thoughts. I wish more people could see the basic truth that it expresses.
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September 7, 2015 at 9:47 am -
Very well argued Sigillum – I agree with all you say. It’s time people started thinking more with their heads rather than their hearts.
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September 7, 2015 at 10:20 am -
I. too, have changed my mind about the EU and will be voting to leave, but for slightly different reasons. I perceive that the powers that be in every country seem to be playing off different nationalities against each other; we have immigrant labour undercutting local expectations, we have stereotypes of lazy Greeks played off against upright Germans played off against hard-hearted Eastern Europeans played off against corrupt Italians or Spanish… it seems the opposite of what was intended. Migration and immigration are now being added to that equation and it is becoming toxic, both internally to the UK and the wider EU.
The only point I would quibble with you about Sigillum is that you say: “They are young men from Islamic societies, and I do not regard the prevailing political culture of those countries as being compatible with the values I have set out above. They are the provinces of religious intolerance, cruel theocracy, sectarianism, cruelty, and hysteria.” Could it be possible that young men want to escape those societies precisely because of the values you cite and because they want to benefit from our values and our freer societies?
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September 7, 2015 at 10:49 am -
No, it isn’t possible. Because the first thing they do when they’ve got their feet under the table is try to impose those warped values on their host country.
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September 7, 2015 at 11:07 am -
Every one?
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September 7, 2015 at 11:42 am -
You’ve been brought up in a country with a broadly Christian heritage – and a long one at that, as I assume were your parents and all those people around you who influenced your childhood and formative years. It’s a fundamental part of who you are. If you were forced by circumstance, or chose, to move to a country with a long Muslim (or Hindu, or anything else come to that), would you immediately cast off all your Western Christian background and heritage, and embrace without question the heritage, traditions and mores of your adopted land? Or would a fundamental part of you remain true to your upbringing and heritage?
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September 7, 2015 at 11:47 am -
The Pew and other surveys show an alarmingly high level of intolerance amongst Muslims living in the UK, including 100% who were anti-homosexuality – and those will include many of the older immigrants who have been here for years as well as British-born Muslims.
Have you seen Muslim-led marches saying “not in my name” after Charlie Hebdo, 9/11, 7/7, The Rushdie affair et al? I haven’t.
How do you tell who is personally dangerous when they all adhere to a religion which is inherently dangerous anyway?
In any case, it doesn’t need them all to be personally dangerous, it just needs them to not object to those who are. If it comes to a war of national/cultural survival – and it well might – how many are going to fight for enlightenment values? Some are going to go along with the most fervent Islamists, some are going to keep their heads down, some are going to slope off as they have done from their own cultural war.
To repeat, they haven’t fought for freedom in their own lands, how likely is it they will do that here?
Seriously, do you see enough to make a difference defending free speech, freedom of religion and all of the values listed by Sigillum above?-
September 7, 2015 at 12:33 pm -
“have you seen Muslim-led marches saying ‘not in my name’?”
Have you actually looked?
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Muslims-protest-ISIS.html
And not just marching: http://www.isisnotinmyname.com/-
September 7, 2015 at 4:23 pm -
One demonstration not in the UK and one website which gives as a front page reason for being against ISIS as “Because it’s totally un – Islamic”, no I’m not that impressed.
Especially as ISIS is more Islamic, in word, deed and action than any “liberal” Muslim.
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September 7, 2015 at 2:18 pm -
A claim of 100% seems somewhat questionable, given that there are even a few “Muslim countries” where homosexual acts are not illegal. A guess I must have imagined Channel 4 screening a programme about Mulsim drag queens last week, as well.
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September 7, 2015 at 4:17 pm -
Peter Raite September 7, 2015 at 2:18 pm ” A claim of 100% seems somewhat questionable”
——
“None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable.”
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
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September 8, 2015 at 10:27 am -
So is it now a “British value” to say homosexual acts are morally acceptable? Ichabod!
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September 8, 2015 at 10:41 am -
So a very limited number of people were polled six years ago, with a reuslt so marked that it calls into question the sampling and methodology. Even as it was, they asked if a whole host of things were “morally acceptable,” which is a very slight a nuanced definition that it would be wrong to present as “anti-homosexuality.” Given that there are clearly Muslim gay men and lesbians, the idea of “100%” opposition is clearly untenable.
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September 7, 2015 at 8:26 pm -
Sadly many of these people will turn against us and use our laws against eg HRA. I think it’s time we questioned how compatible this country is with Islam. We don’t have other religions trying to cause terrorist acts in this country. Jamaican rasters, Indian Sikhs , Chinese Buddhists, Indian Hindus and Vietnamese Buddhists are trying to kill us.
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September 7, 2015 at 1:15 pm -
As a reply to all of you – Engineer, johnS, JuliaM… I really do see your points but I have to say change is coming whether you or I like it or not. The world population is growing, and it will only be slowed by environmental catastrophe, war, genocide, famine, disease or forced sterilisations. I don’t really want to see any of those affect anyone, certainly not me or you. But change is coming because we have advertised our superior standards of living to the world; because we have declared our superior morality to the rest of the world; because what goes around, comes around and there ain’t no empty continents to move into any more.
Now, call me Pollyanna if you wish, but I choose to TRY to see and TRY to find the best in everyone until proved that there is little/nothing to be seen or found. If we think every Muslim is an Anjem Choudhary or Abu Hamza then that is a bit like seeing every American as a potential mass murdering gun freak, or every Brit as a colonialist (or chav)… generalisations are only useful for so long and usually fail when relied upon too much.
I just think we need to manage the change that is inevitably coming in the way that is most beneficial to everyone. Maybe, Engineer, that is because I was brought up in the Christian culture that you describe. There will always be demagogues – both Muslim or fascist or communist or eve Christian but I believe it is best to silence all of them with argument, not to retreat behind walls and fear for the future.
It’s no use saying: “I’m all right Jack, now sod off because I want my imported strawberries in December from Johnnyforeignerland and YOU CAN”T HAVE ANY OF IT”, because we no longer run the world. We have to deal with that.
Yeah, I know you think I’m nuts, but hey… it’s still ok to be that sort of nuts in this country. And I think right_writes’ comment is good too.
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September 7, 2015 at 2:03 pm -
Why is the rest of the world not taking any of these refugees?
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September 7, 2015 at 2:20 pm -
BBC News: Migrant crisis – Why the Gulf states are not letting Syrians in
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September 7, 2015 at 2:31 pm -
Perhaps change in Britain is for the British people to decide – or should be.
I agree that the world’s population is growing, but one thing we do know is that population growth tends to diminish in prosperous countries; there is no longer a need for a couple to produce ten children hoping that four will survive into adulthood to look after them in their old age. Thus, perhaps the best way to stabilise the world’s population is to spread peace, stability and prosperity. I also agree that not every Muslim is a Jihadist (indeed, very few are), but they still at core have a Muslim heritage which is different to the British broadly Christian one, and the Muslim mindset is inherently less tolerant of other religions and attitudes than the Christian-based one, modified heavily, as it is, by the liberalism of the last three centuries.
I also agree that some in the West have been unduly smug and sanctimonious about Western Liberal ‘cultural superiority’, an attitude I don’t share and heartily dislike; but the fact remains that we have, by the hard work of our forebears, inherited a generally prosperous way of life which others would like a piece of (and who can blame them?). The best way for all is to export the ideas that gave us prosperity, not to surrender what our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents sweated long and hard to build for us. China, for all it’s faults, has taken this on board, and is absorbing something of Western ideas within it’s own cultural context, and is becoming more prosperous as a result.
I don’t think you’re nuts, Windsock. I just have a slightly different idea about how to address the world’s ills, that’s all. If Western Christian-based liberalism has given us anything, it’s the idea that problems are better resolved by discussion and agreement than by fighting and conquest – so let’s discuss!
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September 7, 2015 at 3:23 pm -
I think we are largely in agreement about issues but is in the manner of how we address them that we differ.
I can’t remember the source, but I read somewhere that it was the education of women and the availability of contraception which led to the largest falls in births per family. It is in the attitudes towards women that I see the greatest differences between cultures. It will not be until women in all cultures regard themselves as the equal to men, and publicly act in a way that shows that they know they are, that true prosperity will be spread. I believe your example of China is also a good example of this, although I am no expert on Chinese feminism.
I am not advocating any western style feminist agenda to be foisted upon unwilling women anywhere, but I think a slow, managed mixing of cultures is the only way forward that can avoid a conflict. We set examples by our practices. Our behaviours are observed and over time, absorbed. Otherwise, why do people want to be here?
The world is now effectively globalised. Of course there will remain differences in language and custom to some degree – neither the UK, no USA nor even one town is wholly homogenous. There will, however, inevitably be convergences, especially by the use of technology and trade. You are right: the only way to discourage people from coming here is to make them feel that life is just as good at home. So we have to invest and support and encourage and cajole, as well as lead by example.
In the meantime, that means allowing managed migration and showing humanitarianism to those escaping conflict or torture. Don’t Brits also want to leave their country and experience life elsewhere in the world?. The question will be: do we have the patience? Can we do it before time runs out, before population outstrips capacity? Or will we just end up bombing our way to our ends again? And again. And again.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:14 pm -
But have we not already ‘done our bit’ on the managed migration front? We’ve had wave after wave of immigration in my lifetime, and we have quite a few problems as a result. We’re currently ‘enjoying’ net migration of about 300,000 a year, and the British people have already made it known, quietly and without racist hysteria, that they feel that’s more than enough – it took many sections of the media long enough to accept that. Sheltering genuine refugees is a fine and noble thing, but opening the floodgates to countless economic migrants will destroy what we are.
Britain can still do much for the world by exporting it’s ideas of freedom, good governance and tolerance. We couldn’t do that if we degenerate into a divided, fractious land. We must nurture what we have that’s good, or nobody else can benefit from it either.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:26 pm -
We have, indeed, done our bit, and we should continue to do so. I don’t think our bit is finite.
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September 7, 2015 at 4:42 pm -
it’s still ok to be that sort of nuts in this country
I find your use of discriminatory language offensive. Please rewrite your post using the approved term of ‘Special Intellect differently able’.
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September 7, 2015 at 5:17 pm -
If I can accept being called “queer”, Dwarf, I can also tolerate “nuts”. Or “bonkers”. Or even a “childless liberal” .
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September 8, 2015 at 2:29 am -
One thing does slow population growth. Increasing wealth. If you have savings and a prosperous future in a medically advanced society there is no need to have 8 kids to ensure 5 survive to work and provide for you in your old age. That is why Western white populations are falling in the first place.
The idea that there is nothing we can do except allow our societies to be turned into shitholes by migrants with poisonous “values” is pernicious nonsense.
Also it doesn’t matter if Mr and Mrs Ordinary Muslim are not Jihadi freaks. Mr and Mrs Nazi Germany were not burning with the desire to set Europe on fire either. When push comes to shove Mr& Mrs Ordinary anything will do what they are told to by their “leaders”. That is what makes them ordinary. And the leaders of Islam are not good guys. Even if Mr muslim does not agree with the vast amount of nasty doctrine put out by the RoP ( Nobody in islam gives a rats arse what Mrs muslim thinks about anything whatsoever) he isn’t going to stand up and defy them anymore than Nuremberg rallies were disrupted by lots of party members saying how they didn’t agree with all the hate being preached.
Assuming of course that average muslims don’t agree with the basic hate-filled doctrines preached. In polls across the muslim world 60-70% of those polled are entirely happy with death to apostates, honour killings and lots more nasty stuff. Death, death, death and more death as Pat Condell so rightly says.
Not in this country. It has to stop.
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September 8, 2015 at 10:28 am -
“Now, call me Pollyanna if you wish, but I choose to TRY to see and TRY to find the best in everyone…”
An example to us all.
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September 7, 2015 at 6:27 pm -
You see refugees. I see mainly young men of fighting age. Not many families to be seen. This will cause a lot of trouble at some time in the future.
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September 8, 2015 at 2:09 am -
This wave of unaccompanied men is apparently because Assad recently stepped up the draft in areas under his control.
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September 7, 2015 at 10:32 am -
Ive just thought of an ecological and green Border Fence….. pig shit provided by Tamworth Pigs( the ginger agrressive variety) sprayed on the land for miles, That would sort what religion they belong to out!
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September 7, 2015 at 10:47 am -
Well said, Sigillum! Well said, indeed…
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September 7, 2015 at 11:17 am -
Young, fit, enterprising males: the very sort who should be fighting the fanaticism/corruption/injustice of the societies they are fleeing. It would be an injustice to those societies to take them in!
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September 7, 2015 at 11:44 am -
The war in Syria that you refer to has been raging since about five years after the death of the leader of their hateful creed… Islam. It is a dispute about which faction controls the money… naturally. So anyway, the temporary Syria, will be a permanent fixture.
Of course we had what was probably the ideal solution for the “levant”, which is actually the location of the people with the longest written history in the world, but George (effin’) Bush and Tony (effin’) Blair effed it up and then effed off, following the death of millions and predictions of a bleak future for the remaining peeps. That of course was, the leadership of an effin’ bastard (Sunni) known as Sadaam Hussein in charge of one half, and another effin’ bastard known as Bashir Al Assad (Shiite) in charge of the other half… Both members of the same religiously tolerant slightly lefty political movement known as the Baathists. Both members of wealthy families whose sole purpose in life is to hold onto that wealth, and accrue a bit more if possible.
The truth is, that after 9000 years of effin’ and fighting it was the best that they could manage, and probably better than our so-called “democracy”, which is in reality a situation in which two wolves and a lamb discuss the upcoming menu.
Our career politicians, the leaders of this “democracy” have a different mission…
They wish to control the every breath of every single individual within their various domains, and we tell them (in the most gracious tones) which cnut we will grant that control to. Unfortunately these people also control all of the advertising channels, that are also known as the meeja, and they tell us things that sound to many of us to be a genuine reflection of the truth… A bit like Muhammed really!
The result is, that we always make the wrong choice, primarily because there isn’t one (a choice that is). cnut a…. or cnut b…. and sometimes cnut c…. too.
Of course it wasn’t supposed to be this way, some French blokes (known as “the barons”) forced one of these leaders to toe the line and he had no choice but to comply, but somehow we believed the meeja hype and let them get back in the driving seat again… Then we had another go, but let that slip away… and that resulted in us exporting those rights to America, where a few Brits managed to get it written down again… Only to lose control immediately afterwards.
Somehow we never learn. And it looks like we are soon about to suffer again… and this time the freaks are saying from a place called the UN…
We are all effed…
… I fear.
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September 7, 2015 at 11:49 am -
Where is another Enoch ‘Rivers Of Blood’ Powell when you need one. Not that anyone lstened.
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September 7, 2015 at 11:57 am -
The problem with Powell was that they did listen and the inherent truth therein scared the prevailing powers shitless, hence the co-ordinated assault on Powell and his memory.
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September 8, 2015 at 10:30 am -
They didn’t listen. They heard what they imagined he was saying and went hysterical.
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September 7, 2015 at 12:02 pm -
September 7, 2015 at 12:04 pm -
” I will vote to leave the European Union.”
I , for one, doubt we will ever Brexit…no matter how much of a majority vote for it. Ask yourself the simple question; “If Argentina reinvaded the Falklands tomorrow, would Cameron *insert any other frontbencher* really have the balls to dispatch an Armada like Mrs T. did?” because that’s the amount of gumption any political leader would need to take us out of the EU.
It would make more sense for you, instead of voting to leave the EU, to vote to leave Westminster because, and correct me if I’m wrong, the UK is under no obligation to adopt the Merkelian Quota System, right?
Soooo the only way we’ll start taking in a quota of Refugees and Migrants is if our political leaders give in. But there’s no chance of Cameron capitulating is there? The man is renown for his ‘spine’. Oh no, Cameron will never stop defending these blessed shores against the alien hordes.
See, worry over dear, we can all sleep safe this night, can’t we? -
September 7, 2015 at 12:17 pm -
Hard to disagree with much of what’s been said on here.
We now have unwanted pressures being placed on our state not through military threat but through the malevolent power of economic blocs within the eu.
The project can’t be allowed to fail, ditto the euro, & ditto the German economy.
Can’t be allowed to fail regardless of the ruination of individual states, vast movements of people within the eu, & now uncontrolled migration.
I still think that in the Cold War days this couldn’t have happened, wouldn’t have been permitted, which means there’s now a lack of will &/or competence.
& unbelievably nothing is being done about the opportunists transporting those who can afford to attempt to migrate unlawfully.
We used to think the world would be destroyed by nuclear weapons; today the biggest threat is the rise of the handwringers.
Just a view.-
September 7, 2015 at 5:48 pm -
“The meek will inherit the earth.” Funny how it’s never mentioned for how long before the not so meek take it off them (again).
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September 7, 2015 at 1:29 pm -
If I was in a refugee camp in Lebanon and saw the pictures of das volk greeting my fellow inmates with open arms, money and citizenship I would start walking towards the border straight away. Who in their right mind wouldn’t?
How stupid and naive are the leaders of Europe?
If this is how they deal with a relatively straightforward problem, is it any wonder that the Euro, CAP and Common Fisheries policies are such trainwrecks.Time to get out and observe their house burning down from the sidelines.
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September 7, 2015 at 4:13 pm -
das volk greeting my fellow inmates with open arms, money and citizenship
Small point of order-and I may be wrong-but I’m pretty sure das Volk will not be offering the asylum seekers German Citizenship. Money in bucketloads? Yes. Toys and clothing and the best medical care in the world? Housing and all their other needs and a lot of their wants catered for? Certainly. But Citizenship? Very unlikley. You see Germany clings to a definition of Germanicness that even the Nazi’s would have felt was a bit anal. “Blut” is very important.
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September 7, 2015 at 8:31 pm -
Possibly a free shower?
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September 7, 2015 at 1:31 pm -
Someone somewhere has a hidden agenda, but I’m damned if I can work out who or what…
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September 7, 2015 at 4:00 pm -
One would think that any sane government would thank its lucky stars if Islam had essentially no hold over its population and would not want that situation to change. Yet all western governments seem to be playing a form of Russian Roulette, “most of the chambers do no harm, so let’s keep spinning the cylinder”. They even go so far as to invent the offensive term ‘moderate Muslim’, what they would like a Muslim to be, sort of like an atheist Christian I expect. As you imply, the unanswered question is, “Why?”.
With regard to the original post, I substantially agree and to the extent that I am able to disagree that strengthens the argument. A minor point: People of many nations have been able to live in foreign countries without being part of a political union, it is an EU myth that this is a benefit only available to EU citizens. Rather like Jack Straw’s ‘cheap air fares that the EU ‘gave’ us the benchmark for ‘cheap’ is and always was the cost of a trans-Atlantic fare, something we have despite the EU.
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September 7, 2015 at 8:08 pm -
There are I’m sure some good things arising from the EU; just not on the same level as the old: ‘What have the Romans ever done for us?’ routine.
The are however two preposterous arguments made for it; first decades of peace in Europe as a result of the EU. Really? Second is the presumption that Europe would have entered some kind of stasis without the EU. Rather ignoring initiatives across the world on trade & green issues- my new car in LA in the late ’70’s was leadfree. Was that 10 years before Europe?
The world is full of trade blocs working together in loose association for mutual benefit; the EU isn’t one of them.
Just an opinion.
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September 7, 2015 at 1:40 pm -
Now that it has been confirmed that UK will be allowing I 1000s of refugees, I will be interested to see how many of the opportunistic MPs who said they would take in a family, actually do. I have £10 that says Sturgeon won’t.
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September 7, 2015 at 2:07 pm -
Very large numbers, I would say the majority, of those migrating, travelling, seeking asylum, call it what you will, are not women and children. They are young men. They are young men from Islamic societies, and I do not regard the prevailing political culture of those countries as being compatible with the values I have set out above. They are the provinces of religious intolerance, cruel theocracy, sectarianism, cruelty, and hysteria.
Just a thought, but maybe that’s why a lot of them want to leave in the first place?
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September 7, 2015 at 2:36 pm -
Why just the young men? Why not the young women, too? Why not the middle-aged, or whole families?
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September 8, 2015 at 2:45 am -
Effectively we are likely to be letting in large numbers of aggressive yobs with a sense of entitlement as large as the all outdoors (WE WANT GERMANY!) and a proven track record of violence, intimidation and thievery.
Also you can be sure that whatever this crew get up to over here, short of murder (they have already started on that in Italy–as well as raping an elderly woman) the police will wink at. Cos you don’t get up the cop ladder by trying to apply the law to ethnic minorities let in on a wave of bullshit sentiment.
Any complaints you might have against our new friends will get you nothing but hot air from the bluebottles . And your paperwork will prob be put away in the file marked “racist”.
Of course if you take any direct steps to protect yourself against the depredations of our new buddies you can be sure that the bluebottles attitude then will be very different. They will squeal with delight as they imagine the career boost that arresting another nasty white racist will bring them.
It is not a case just of storing trouble for the future. The trouble will start as soon as they arrive.
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September 8, 2015 at 9:19 am -
The young men get in. They next import families. In the overwhelming majority of cases the new imports will not be an asset to their host countries.
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September 7, 2015 at 2:41 pm -
Two points for Sigillum:
1. The things you “wish” have already been surrendered by our loathsome political class. Your wishes simply don’t come into it.
2. Leaving the EU will not stop the refugee crisis. We have legal and treaty obligations which pre-date and over-ride anything the EU does; read the good Dr. North about this.
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September 7, 2015 at 4:08 pm -
The issue regarding leaving the EU is simply about Britain regaining the power to decide what is best for Britain. In many cases that may be the same as the remaining EU member states but, when Britain’s interests are different, then it should be for the British people, via their elected representatives, to make the decisions which best support Britain’s interests. That can only ever be achieved by leaving the EU.
The refugee issue is merely a topical and typical example of many such issues across all aspects of domestic, foreign, economic and trade policy – the British Government may not always be right (indeed it certainly won’t always be right), but the electorate must retain the power to eject any Government if it makes too many or too serious errors – we do not have, and never will have, that ejection power over the EU Commission and its acolytes because the edifice was deliberately designed to prevent that accountability. The past 40 years should have amply demonstrated to anyone with open eyes and an open mind how to vote in the forthcoming referendum.
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September 7, 2015 at 4:22 pm -
A small point from me is that however laudable your wish list is, then your freedoms in a number of respects would trample over my freedoms. The clash of those freedoms may leave you worse off than if you’d kept your trap shut, because when it came to a fight you might come off worse, and my freedoms would trump yours. Of course the reverse could be true, in which case you would be the tyrant not me. Many freedoms need to be tempered, for example you can smoke if you wish, but just not everywhere, especially in confined public spaces to the annoyance of those who don’t smoke (although I simply can’t understand why you can’t smoke in your own car or home).
Of course, if we simply let ourselves be overtaken by the completely intolerant religious nutters, then they will impose their wishes on the rest of us. So, homosexuals who persecute cake bakers will get thrown off tall buildings, and paedophiles will be free to practice their ‘cultural preferences’ on the way to prayers. Bit like the previous upturn where it was ‘Tally-ho to foxhunting’ and homosexuals were hounded (sometimes, and no pun intended) to suicide was stood on its head, and now foxhunting is illegal and it’s open season on sodomy. (So what about Gomorrahishness, I ask? Sounds like something Nicola Sturgeon would support.)
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September 7, 2015 at 5:57 pm -
That’s a curious comment. If I may express some concern, I cannot see how Mr. Sigillum’s “wish list” of freedoms would impinge on anyone else’s. Upon a careful re-inspection of this essay, I nowhere read that Mr. Sigillum is suggesting that he should be entitled to smoke in a pub, or your home, or even that he wants to smoke at all – merely that he wishes to be able to make the choice about whether to smoke, or enjoy a drink, or whatever. In that sense he is the modern day representative of a long history of philosophic thought such as Mill, Bentham and Popper, although it would take a few paragraphs more to explain that, and I suspect it would be pointless.
And the statement “many freedoms need to be tempered” in this context is, I am sorry to say, anodyne. In a sense, anything can be a “freedom”. I may claim the “freedom” to beat my wife. I may claim the “freedom” to attack someone, because I think the colour of their skin is different to mine. Each is a product of free will, in a sense. But, struggling as I am through my ancient spectacles to read the post, I am not able to discern any hint that Mr. Sigillum is advocating any such freedom. Indeed, he seems to be suggesting that you should, indeed be free to express you view, however asinine, ignorant, ill thought through, or offensive. -
September 7, 2015 at 10:30 pm -
Of course, if we simply let ourselves be overtaken by the completely intolerant anti-smoker nutters, then they will impose their wishes on the rest of us.
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September 8, 2015 at 12:49 am -
Edgar,
There’s a lot of nonesense on both sides of the smoking debate, and the enforcement of the present ban, which only extremely rarely enforces the ’10m from a door’ rule but does enforce ‘not indoors’ seems to me to be more equitable than ‘smokers can smoke everywhere’ or ‘smoking is completely banned everywhere’. I don’t imagine that passive smoking really does cause the illnesses attributed to it, but there is little doubt that it makes non-smokers’ clothes and hair stink. When smoking was nearly universal, smokers failed to respect non-smoking areas, and imposed their habits on non-smokers, but the boot is on the other foot now. For most of my life I considered smokers to be simply inconsiderate, but now the reverse is the norm, we non-smokers are worse than inconsiderate, we are ‘completely intolerant anti-smoker nutters’. I merely don’t want smokers to foul my person or my clothes, and if they wish to fill their lungs with whatever smoking fills them with, that’s their business.
In reply to Gildas, the phrase “smoke cigarettes if I so wish” implies anywhere, anytime, because Sigillum’s ‘if I so wish’ does not contain any qualification, and he could so wish anywhere or anytime. While I would not wish to impinge on Sigillum’s right or freedom to smoke in an appropriate place, it is no longer appropriate to do so where non-smokers cannot escape and that isn’t unreasonable in my view.
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September 8, 2015 at 12:57 am -
it is no longer appropriate to do so where non-smokers cannot escape
that’s one of those fASHist statements that probably sound even scarier in the original German- infact it does sound scarier in the original German.
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September 8, 2015 at 10:36 am -
Whenever you see the word “(in)appropriate”, become very critical.
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September 7, 2015 at 5:18 pm -
In my opinion the Arab nations were doing quite well, leading the world in medicine, sciences, mathematics until it all went wrong 1436 years ago. Since then it has been a steady downhill slide to the current level of barbarity we see today.
If you look at europe in 1436 you do not have to look hard to see the similarities between christainity then and islam now. It is probably a matter of timing and the fact that we did not have BBC,SKY or CNN in those days.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:05 pm -
Driving to Norwich this afternoon to that nice Mr McDonald’s meat-patty-inna-bun emporium, I caught the ‘PM’ prog on the radio ( I say ‘caught’ because the radio 4 reception here is ‘fleeting’ to say the least).
I hate to say it but I actually found myself agreeing with The Glorious Invertebrate His Royal Spinelessness, who for once was showing just a teensy bit of back bone (no doubt he’ll have to return it to teacher after class). How he ever manned up enough to send in a drone strike I will never know.
I also think he was right to say that the 20,000 refugees should come from the ME Camps…except I still think we should be taking more. 20,000 is a bit of a drop in the ocean (aptly considering how many have dropped in to the Med…I’ll get my chainmail and helmet).
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September 7, 2015 at 8:32 pm -
We could take them from the camps, and give preference to those most likely to be persecuted — non-Muslims, gay people, democrats, etc.
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September 8, 2015 at 2:55 am -
We should not take so much as one.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:14 pm -
I shall crow now that I voted against the “common market” then and will vote against the EUSSR if any politician is honest enough to give us that option. Sorry, I’ve just realised that honest and politician in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:58 pm -
I too voted ‘Out’ in the ’75 Wilson Referendum, in addition to campaigning against entry in the ’60s (when De Gaulle saved us by saying “Non”) and again in the ’70s when Traitor Heath was doing his dirty work to sign us up without so much as a by-your-leave, so you can probably guess which way my vote will go, if it ever happens.
I bear no grudge against the 67% who voted to stay in at the ’75 – they were conned by a slick establishment conspiracy and their error is forgiveable, but only providing they put it right next time, as this will be the last time, as the Rolling Stones once so memorably sang. (See what I did there, actually proved some knowledge of popular music lyrics – amazing).
Stay firm, Jannie, and we might just get the answer right this time.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:47 pm -
Deutschland (Uber Alles) have made damned sure that the folks they assimilate are the ones that had the gumption, spirit and fortitude to make the long walk.
If they’ve that sort of spirit you can imagine the contribution they’ll make to their new homes.
We (Never Shall Be Slaves) will get the pick of the dysentery ridden happy campers.-
September 8, 2015 at 2:54 am -
The “spirit” of these long walkers can be judged from the following account–which speaks for itself:
“The entry was posted on the author’s Facebook page yesterday, so the incident would have happened on Thursday night. Btw, the author, Kamil Bulonis, is gay and proudly displays a “rainbowed” profile picture on his Facebook… Hardly a “far-rightist”!
The translated excerpt:
“They tried to overturn the coach, in which I was travelling with a group. Excrement was thrown in our direction… they banged on the doors, to get the driver to open them. They spat at the windows.” — such is the report of Kamil Bulonis, the author of a travel blog.
It’s difficult to accuse the author of this entry, who writes a blog called “Obywatel Swiata” [Citizen of the World], of right-wing, Catholic or nationalist “looniness”. For Kamil Bulonis writes about himself openly on Instagram as a “journalist, globetrotter, gay”, while on Facebook, his profile picture appears in rainbow colours.
Last night Kamil Bulonis posted a report of his journey from Italy by coach. It is so moving that we are pasting it in full. Especially given that we cannot rely on mainstream media to break with their common narrative about “bad Hungarian nationalists” and “poor immigrants”.
This is the account by Kamil Bulonis:
One and a half hours ago, on the border of Italy and Austria, I saw with my own eyes massive incidents involving immigrants… in all my solidarity with people finding themselves in a difficult life situation I must say, that what I saw breeds fear…
This great mass of people — sorry that I write this, but it’s an absolute horde. Vulgar words, thrown bottles, loud cries of “We want Germany” — is Germany at present some kind of paradise? I saw how they surrounded the car of an older Italian lady, pulled her out by her hair and wanted to drive off in that car. The coach I was on in a group, they attempted to overturn. Excrement was thrown at us, they banged on the doors, so that the driver would open them, they spat at the window… I ask, for what purpose? How can this wild horde assimilate in Germany? For a moment, I thought I was in a war…
I really feel sorry for these people, but if they were to reach us [Poland] — I don’t think they would receive any understanding from us… For three hours we waited at the border, which ultimately we did not cross. The whole group was escorted back to Italy in a police cordon. The coach looks destroyed, covered in excrement, scratched and with broken windows. And this is the idea to solve our demographic issues? These great, giant regiments of barbarians? Among them, there were almost no women, no children — the overwhelming majority were young aggressive males…
Yesterday, reading the news on all the websites, I was still subconsciously caring, worried about their destiny, but today, after what I saw, I am simply afraid, but happy at the same time that they do not choose our nation as their destination. We Poles are simply not ready to accept these people — not culturally, and not financially. I don’t know if anyone is ready. A pathology is entering the EU, which up until now we never had a chance to see. And my apologies to anyone I may have offended anyone with this entry.
Finally, I’ll add that cars arrived containing humanitarian aid — first and foremost, with food and water, yet they simply overturned these cars… through the megaphone, the Austrians announced that they agree for them to cross the border — they wanted to register them, and allow them to go further — but they didn’t understand these announcements. They understood nothing. And in all this, that was the biggest horror… among a few thousand people, nobody understood Italian, English, German, Russian or Spanish. The power of the fist was what mattered… they fought for the right to proceed further, and they had this right — but they didn’t understand this! In the coach of the French group they opened the luggage compartment — everything that was inside, in a few moments was stolen, a few of the items were strewn across the ground… in my short life, I had never had a chance to witness such scenes, and I have a feeling that this is only the beginning. On a final note I’ll add, that it’s good to help — but not at any cost.”
This lot can settle down next door to you Johnny Panic (you will have something to panic about) not anywhere near me or mine.
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September 7, 2015 at 7:48 pm -
There are at present 8 million people who were not born here – and that’s the ones we know about. How many illegals will add considerably to that number. Are we mad in wanting to take ever more? Obviously we are. Let us leave it to those demanding we take more to accommodate, feed, clothe and otherwise look after them at their own expense, not dump them on the rest of us. How many will the Unbanned Dwarf take?
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September 7, 2015 at 8:03 pm -
By my reckoning, there should be plenty of room in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and all the other EU pretend-states who have so generously already lent us their plumbers, plasterers, prostitutes, pick-pockets and pikeys. Why not re-populate those places first – gotta be better than Syria, or any other rag-headed, camel-abusing hell-hole for that matter.
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September 7, 2015 at 8:09 pm -
Oh Gawd – that’ll be the next thing. Asylum-seeking camels….
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September 8, 2015 at 1:11 am -
How many will the Unbanned Dwarf take?
Actually I said the other day that if the government were to place a small Syrian family with us I would be proud to help, and that wasn’t a dwarvish quip but meant seriously. I’ve always had this thing about ‘putting money where mouth is’. I am violently anti-abortion and on several occasions have offered that if various ‘shes’ were to go full term they could leave the baby with us and we would raise it as her own (ie if ten years later she decided she did want to be a mom to it we would hand over the child having brought it up to believe it’s mom was working abroad or whatever. Mind you, seeing the awful job I made of parenting my own kids…maybe the child would do better in a home.
It’s a dwarf ‘thing’, I don’t expect ‘Big Folk’ to get it
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September 8, 2015 at 12:53 am -
Sadly. I find myself in agreement with much of this piece. I say sadly because I have always detested nationalism as a political force/creed and while my allegiance to “leftish” thinking has waned over the years my belief in libertarianism in the sense of freedom of the individual and human rights has remained a constant.
I have always viewed immigration from perspective of someone very proud to have had Irish mother and all four Irish grandparents including grandfather who avoided the Irish clubs, rebel songs and all that in the 20s and 30s, not because he denied the awful actions of the “Brits” over the centuries but whose attitude was “nobody forced me to come here or is stopping me leaving. Don’t discriminate against me because of my roots and religion but “when in Rome…”.
I have (just about) therefore always supported the notion of more European co-operation (but never a federal Europe) despite years of seeing the beast in action in years in Whitehall and spending doubtless too much time on UK delegations in negotiations in Brussels and at the UN – and seeing at first hand the too often surreal world inside the bubble. I was always an old-fashioned civil servant who believed that I was paid to represent the views of my political masters of whatever persuasion rather than pursuing my own views – sadly I found myself increasingly out of step on that one.
So as often as I might have despaired, thinking what an incredible waste of money all this is arguing into the wee small hours about texts that in the main no bugger outside the bubble will ever read or care about (and most of you in this room are just indulging in a grand game because all these “commitments” you are arguing so passionately about have as much substance as the routine management-speak we see at the beginning of every weasel-worded press release explaining away some awful fuck-up which has killed people), I would fall back on cliche that at least it was cheaper in money and human terms than fighting each other… so just ignore all the bullshit, utter hypocrisy and total disconnect of all this from anyone along my street – and concentrate on what I was paid to do and focus on stuff that would actually affect people outside the room – and just let all the annoying but ultimately harmless verbiage go by.
But I think that push has now come to shove and while it could have survived the insanity behind the triumph of political posturing over reason that has been the story of the Euro – not least letting Greece join – the immigration/asylum “crisis” (leave aside all the questions there) is going to kill the EU and whatever replaces it/or not is not going to be good.
And despair is main feeling when it seems that years of almost daily reports of “X, including Y children killed in Syria/drowned in Med” have no real impact and it takes one (again leave aside big questions about it) photo of dead child on beach to spur all this shock/horror. Do you really need picture to twig what the words dead and child mean?
Afraid I do not have courage to confront various Facebook friends posting that and other pictures accompanied by more or – generally less – subtle messages saying share or you are a heartless bastard ie more about narcissism – and “I am considerably more caring than thou” pissing contests than anything . All summed by Geldorf offering rooms – very good Bob but why do you need to announce it?
There is a lot about Merkel that has been good but her posturing will I believe prove to be one of the most disastrous political mistakes.
I tend to be an optimist, a great believer in human progress and almost pathological hater of the “We are all doomed” campaigners but I do not look forward to next few years.
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September 8, 2015 at 9:12 am -
I think that is a very balanced comment Michael. Speaking as someone with a significant strand of Irish blood in me, I am very proud of that heritage. There is a lot of posturing going on.
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September 8, 2015 at 3:25 pm -
One thing your post does is confirm for me something that is sometimes said; in Britain, everything is permitted unless specifically banned, but in Europe, everything is banned unless specifically permitted. The old approach to government regulation in Britain was to avoid it unless it was found to be necessary, but it seems the EU approach is to regulate everything regardless of any real need.
This chimes with my point earlier in the comments that Britain is at its best when it is most free. It has been said that the Industrial Revolution could not have happened on the Continent because it would have taken a century or more for government committees to sanction the development of the steam engine; in Britain, we just got on with it. We should stick with our more libertarian outlook, and we will then give more to the world.
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September 8, 2015 at 9:31 am -
I wonder if the EU’s paralysis over this issue is due to the fact that they haven’t yet quite worked out how to make it a “beneficial crisis”.
Once Juncker or someone finds a way to show that the refugee crisis proves the need for closer, deeper integration and more power for the unelected of Strasbourg, then watch them jump into action!
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September 8, 2015 at 4:58 pm -
How the hell taking 20,000 refugees is going to stop Sigullum dancing I don’t know. If there was a single coherent argument in the piece I might argue with him but there is absolutely no connection made between his laudable principles and EU membership or this country’s ability to host refugees (of whatever number).
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