'Going to Work on a Clegg…'. Farage v Clegg.
The consummate politician was put in the ring with the consummate debater last night on live television – and guess who won? Without a doubt the consummate debater! Nigel Farage was in his element.
This was the political equivalent of ‘Britain’s Got Talent’. Lightweight imagery designed for an audience that was as likely to vote for the winner on how successfully he had dyed his hair as on what came out of his mouth.
Nick Clegg in the fetching yellow corner, employed the technique that works so well for politicians in their normal environment – being interviewed by respectful journalists, keen not to screw their future chances of getting another interview. He used every question posed to him as a chance to extoll the virtues of actions he had taken – invariably on completely different subjects. ‘Immigration? I’m so glad you asked that question, it is an important issue, close to the heart of the British voters and the British public deserve an honest answer – that is why I am proud to tell you that under my stewardship we have ensured pre-school nurseries for every child in the country…’.
However, over in the smoke-filled, beer-stained corner, Nigel Farage, was the heckler extraordinaire, the troll from Hell, no longer confined to Twittering over Clegg’s head and landing the occasional ‘splat’ on his head by proxy, but given equal billing, equal standing. He couldn’t be ejected, blocked or ignored. He was there as of right, invited by Clegg no less.
It made for riveting television, a golden opportunity for LBC (and Iain Dale) as they traded punches on the In-Out-Shake-It-All-About EU issue. Did we learn anything? Of course not. Every argument employed had already been aired ad nauseum. The polished responses told of 20 years of arguments over middle-class dinner parties, hustings, TV interviews – the pair of them were merely trading well honed insults. They will do the same thing next Wednesday, by which time both will have armed themselves with well rehearsed answers as to where the missing two million Romanians and Bulgarians have disappeared to since UKIP published the pamphlet claiming that ’29 million Romanians and Bulgarians are poised to arrive in the UK’.
Clegg’s answer, for which no doubt he was duly grateful to the professional services of the highly experienced civil servants of the government department paid to unearth these figures, is that there ‘aren’t 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians in Romania or Bulgaria’ – not any longer, there aren’t, well done clever Clegg’s, but a million viewers shouted at the television with one voice ‘precisely, and no one knows where they are, thanks to the EU’. The answer is probably Italy and Spain for the moment, the weather is so much better there right now….
Clegg might not have been able to come up with a coherent answer to Farage’s main point which was that 485 million Europeans have free movement across British borders and we have no ‘quality control’ to decide how to ration the available space, services and jobs. Clever-Clegg’s answer that leaving the EU would mean not having access to a market of 500 million customers was an insult to intelligence. The argument is whether we have a political union with those 500 million customers, not whether we shoot them all dead! Do you seriously imagine that the allegorical Greek olive grower will suddenly decide that he no longer aspires to own a Rolls-Royce because the manufacturer’s government is no longer in a political union where the precise size of the catalytic converter is decided by an un-elected Belgian technocrat?
The issue of ‘quality control’ has set me thinking though. What is the ‘quality control’ we employ to decide on who is to run the country? It is all very well the media declaring that ‘a YouGov survey of 1,003 viewers found that 57 per cent thought the UKIP leader had performed better, with 36 per cent backing the Deputy Prime Minister’, but that doesn’t actually tell us how he would run the country. It merely tells us that he can hold the floor better in a debate.
If you were hiring a manager to organise the proverbial piss-up’s in your chain of brewery’s, you would be asking for references, perhaps suggestions for future marketing plans, looking into their past employment history, relevant experience in this type of work. You wouldn’t be inviting applicants to merely trade insults on the factory floor. We don’t let applicants into university on the basis of a shouting match in the quadrangle – why would we abandon standards when looking for someone to run the country?
As it happens, the Institute of Economic Affairs has been running a competition:
An “Out” vote in a British referendum would be a major historic geo-political and economic event, perhaps even comparable with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union and re-unification of Germany. It is time, therefore, that the UK explores the process of withdrawal and its economic and political consequences. This competition is designed to examine the process of withdrawal and, more importantly, how the UK might fit into the fresh geo-political and economic landscape that would follow.
It is due to announce the 100,000€ winner in a few days time – the 8th April to be exact. Might I suggest that the winner of that competition, or even some of the runners up, would be more suitable to run the country – at least they would have examined the issues from a practical viewpoint. Perhaps instead of an election and non-binding manifestos we should be inviting applicants to submit a formal cv and evidence that they have researched in depth and reached a conclusion based on fact – whatever their conclusion!
It would be an improvement on ‘Politicians Got Talent’ with freshly applied hair dye and tired old sound bites.
Edited to add: Ms Raccoon has not proof read this blog, nor even considered whether it is ‘fully formed’ and ready for publication. It was a post in gestation, started in the early hours of this morning, and subsequently over-run by events today. So apologies, it is all you are getting, I’m off to hospital again – behave yourself whilst I am away, and this time, would some of you at least make an effort to pay for the pork scratchings – there was 3p and a button in the jar last time, and two entire cases of pork scratchings consumed.
Hopefully back before closing time…
- Robert Edwards
March 27, 2014 at 6:13 pm -
On balance, I rather thought that Farage wiped his bottom with Clegg. The dig about the Ukraine was clever – the punch on the bell…
- Ms Mildred
March 27, 2014 at 6:30 pm -
Perhaps I might read over again Au Revoir Europe by David charter. First time round there was little impulse to take notes and try and absorb what I was reading. At my age I need to do this when the subject is a bit dry. I heard some of the debate. Two very different approaches to the contest. Farage is a seasoned political brawler, fighting a minority corner for some years now, his opponent not consistent when answering awkward questions off the cuff on other programmes. I do not fancy a government in this era, when we are frequently in dangerous situations, possibly as a balancing group just with MEP experience. None in our parliament. What have they done for UK in the European Parliament? There is currently a lot of effort to undermine our police force on historical matters that I seem to be witnessing. Police have enough to contend with NOW without inquiries and inquests being raked over for events that occurred years ago and juries have already pronounced. It all makes me very uneasy. An untested political group on the scene makes me even more uneasy……I am glad I am the age I am…..as the tail is beginning to wag the dog. I will find it hard to decide who to vote for next time round. I will vote for UKIP for Europe. Maybe it will spark up certain politicians to be less wishy washy!
- Moor Larkin
March 27, 2014 at 6:53 pm -
Soon…… we can vote, vote, vote……
The polls seem to be suggesting a huge swing to Labour from the Lib Dems compared to 2009, with UKIP cancelling out the Tories. In 2009 Labour were third in terms of seats won – a massive turnaround. I imagine a big swing left [whatever left means theses days], in Southern Europe at least, must be a given too.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/european-elections - Carol42
March 27, 2014 at 6:55 pm -
I thought Nick Clegg would never shut up, I was utterly bored with him. I know they had the same time but it felt like Nick was talking far more than Nigel and interrupting more too. Just more of same old from Nick.
- Ancient + Tattered Airman
March 27, 2014 at 7:00 pm -
Anna, can I have my button back please?
- Penseivat
March 27, 2014 at 7:06 pm -
The debate was interesting and I was so glad that Farage more than held his own, especially as he didn’t have the legions of statisticians and politicians from all parties giving him helpful hints on how to dispose of the usurper, unlike Clegg. Whether UKIP would be able to form a domestic government only has one answer – it couldn’t. However, there is a certain way in which Eurosceptics of all parties can sway the policies of their particular parties. There are European elections on the horizon and this is an ideal opportunity for people to show how they feel about the EU and unrestricted immigration. If enough people vote for UKIP on this occasion, just watch the midnight oil burning bright in the policy making departments of the ConDemLab offices as sweating, petrified, politicians worry how they can manage to stay on the public funded gravy train. Can’t wait.
- Mudplugger
March 27, 2014 at 8:25 pm -
There’s no doubt the current personnel of UKIP could not govern effectively. However, if the Euro-vote on May 22 delivers the forecast result, that may be the clinching argument which then enables many more competent operators, and donors, to jump their current ships and join UKIP.
That result may also convince many other voters that UKIP is not a wasted vote – a key indicator will be how many local councillors UKIP get from the vote held on the same day – that coincidence may prove very helpful in later first-past-the-post polls, where that credibility is vital to getting any seats at all.
We live in interesting psephological times.
- Mudplugger
- Tigerrose
March 27, 2014 at 7:41 pm -
In that they both got publicity, they both won. At least they both had the guts to debate an important subject unlike the other two, who obviously deem it beneath them!
- Moor Larkin
March 28, 2014 at 9:18 am -
@Tigerose
It’s an odd combo though, because in terms of Euro Politik, UKIP is Party #2 to the Tories just now, with Labour and the Lib Dems trailing third and fourth respectively, so Cleggy was punching well above his Euro electoral weight actually.
- Moor Larkin
- peezedtee
March 27, 2014 at 7:43 pm -
“precise size of the catalytic converter is decided by an un-elected Belgian technocrat”
Oh dear. You don’t really think that’s how these things work, do you? And why “Belgian”? Surely you don’t imagine most Commission officials are Belgians, just because their office is in Brussels?
If there is a rule about the size of catalytic converters (I have no idea whether there is or not), it will be so as to provide a level playing field for free trade between Member States, i.e. no country can keep others’ products out by stipulating its own rules. This benefits the consumer. Proposals are drafted by unelected Commission technocrats but have to be approved by the Council (which consists of the elected governments of the Member States) and the European Parliament (which we directly elect).
- gareth
March 27, 2014 at 9:57 pm -
Things like the size of catalytic converters (and many other things) are often decreed not by the EU but by global / UN / WTO type organisations and are to do with global trade. The EU is often just the regional government that puts the standard into effect. The EU gets to be part of the debate as the standard is developed but the UK, as an EU subject state, is excluded and represented solely by the EU. Non-EU states however, for example Norway, as independent countries get to be part of the standard development process. Thus, instead of being subject to “fax democracy” where it is told what laws to implement without any input to their development, Norway actually has more control of legislation on catalytic converters, etc. than the UK.
(not that I’m an expert on this stuff – my source of information is Richard North / EUReferendum.com – who normally seems to be accurate when I’ve fact checked him).
PS: I’m also not at all sure that this necessarily benefits the consumer – although it certainly benefits big business as more standards and more legislation create barriers to entry to smaller producers.
- Moor Larkin
March 28, 2014 at 9:14 am -
Reading around the fascinating subject I gathered the Euro VI standard for Catty emission is due to commence this September. I’m sure we all remember Euro’s I-V. As binao reminds me, the Unleaded thing was done by California simply and unilaterally making leaded fuel illegal. Not exactly nudge-politics but clearly effective. I guess the air in LA was not unlike the air in the London of the 1950’s when the British unilaterally declared smokeless coal-burning zones. And then we got North Sea gas.
- Moor Larkin
- gareth
- binao
March 28, 2014 at 8:36 am -
I didn’t listen to it all due to fear of furniture damage.
Mr Farage is mightily entertaining, especially when stuffing the highly deserving, as Mr Clegg. And for all the resources available to him, Clegg didn’t inspire me. I got the impression of a chapel preacher telling us we must submit to a higher power, but Brussels instead of God. Or we’ll be visited by famine and a plague of boils. A matter of faith, nothing more, and the same stale old opinions presented as facts. Shame, he seems a nice boy, but at nearly 50 and no obvious experience of our world, with just a skidmark of a party, we ought to wonder if he should even be allowed into No. 10 by the catflap, let alone the front door.
Even so, I don’t suppose Farage is going to get anywhere. The forces available, sometimes at our expense, to unpick every detail of his life & his party are just too great. So I don’t think he’s going to be allowed to get far.
Still worth having him stirring the pot though.
For me , I just don’t accept that the world would have stood still without the eu as a political body; e.g. my car in the late 1970’s in LA ran on unleaded. I don’t think the eu were involved. And I’m no historian, but I don’t recall any successful major empires in the past except those formed by conquest. This one is composed of a hugely diverse range of cultures and economies; I think it’s gone rogue, and will end badly.
Just a view. - Ms Mildred
March 28, 2014 at 11:23 am -
Binao ‘I think it’s gone rogue and will end badly’…..I tend to agree. Look at Ukraine and EU interference. I feel it already ending badly. Suffocating in the corset of the Euro. The last few years show this. UK made a rare wise move, for a change, and we kept our pound. Poor old Cleggy always gets a bashing in the media, that is why I added only mild criticism from what my failing radio ears tell me. I also feel the the MSM will give Farage a right going over if he gets any where near a degree of success in any approach to power. Farage is a stick with which to beat our limp government for the time being, and, perish the thought, let in the lefties. I have this feeling that we are in danger of repeating the slow march to world war one, fuelled by diverse events, bad decisions, hoary old treaties and promises could again be under way. This time it would be a wrecking disaster of mind blowing intensity. I know this is extreme pessimism, but that is what I feel.
- Frank Davis
March 28, 2014 at 2:25 pm -
Re the 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians, Clegg said that there weren’t that many of them in Bulgaria and Romania.
Not knowing offhand how many of them there were, I asked Google for the populations of these countries, and it said that there were 21.3 million Romanians and 7.3 million Bulgarians, so in total there were 28.6 million Romanians and Bulgarians, which can be rounded up to 29 million. So what’s the fuss about?
- Henry
March 29, 2014 at 9:05 am -
I knew it had gone well for Farage when the BBC reported it as about honours even.
For the Beeb to do anything other than smirk at Farage & UKIP means he must have done pretty well. Which is an interesting phenomenon in itself – not just that the BBC read the Guardian and smirk at Daily Mail readers and UKIPers, we all know that, but the new stereotypes Guardian/BBC types throw about to justify ignoring many people’s opinions. They see themselves (their small social group, mostly not very brilliant arts graduates) as this educated elite and everyone else as morons
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